Re: LOTR: Is Gollum a BP?

[Guest guest]

cathi

I'm not that big a fan of the trilogy but my kids are. I do remember thinking to

myself that the gollum must have BPD. The biggest metaphor for me was the chain

frodo used to control the gollum, that is how we must employ boundaries and

limits to bring our bps to a working level in our relationships.

Shirley brought up the same gollum as bp model in his online workshop.

Great minds think alike.

We are all looking forward to Return of the King around here.

Doug

LOTR: Is Gollum a BP?

For any Lord of the Rings Fans out there:

I just watched The Two Towers again last night. Does anyone else

think Gollum is BP, or perhaps BP's are like Gollum? And that KO's

are a little like Frodo?

This ties a little into whether or not BP's have any choice in their

behavior. I think Smeagol had no choice but to be Smeagol (except at

the very beginning when he took the ring), but he did have a choice

whether or not to be Gollum.

I thought it interesting, too, that the ring used to be Gollum's, and

without it Gollum preceived that he had no other purpose/life, and

that Frodo " inherited " the ring so-to-speak from Gollum. So Gollum

*needed* to be with Frodo, but he hated Frodo for that very reason.

It's like our nadas lost their " rings " to us, (we " inherited " it

against our will, a little like Frodo), but always want it near them,

too. And like Gollum vaccilated between his " two natures " as it

were, wanting to be good/loved/protected, but also wanting control

(alternatingly idolizing and hating Frodo, but either way never

leaving him alone) - I think BP's are very much like that with us

KOs. He even alternates between having dangerous rages and pathetic

wailing pity parties - whatever is most likely to help him get his

way.

The weight, the pull, the sensitivity to evil that Frodo experienced

because of the ring reminds me of myself, at least, as a KO. And the

way Frodo looked at Gollum and needed to believe that he could be

good, that he could be Smeagol, was so important to him because he

was afraid that the ring would turn himself into another Gollum.

Just like many of us are afraid that we might also be BP, or that

because of our inherited " ring " we have become something other

than " human " (ie: damaged goods as was mentioned in other posts).

Yet, I think in the end it is all about choices. Frodo could easily

have become another Gollum. He could have let the ring destroy him

and his whole world. And yet, inspite of the suffering, he continued

on his journey alone and misunderstood, and haunted. And yet he

refused to give up holding on to what was good in the world, and to

what was good in himself. Smeagol fought the same struggle, but

chose to surrender to his greed for control, until in the end he was

consumed by his desire and it virtually took away his ability to

choose.

Smeagol took the ring by choice in the beginning, but Frodo inherited

it. I tend to believe that most BP's have some choice, at least in

the beginning, whereas the choice of KO's is more of having it placed

upon us against our will, and struggling against it our whole lives

until it is finally destroyed after fighting off all our " demons " as

it were.

I was also thinking about Dan. In the end Frodo couldn't rid himself

of the ring and had to have his finger " amputated " from his body. I

was wondering if Dan's amputation desire might be similar. That the

will just isn't strong enough on it's own and an outside party has to

actually remove it. Since the soul can't be operated on, perhaps a

body part is the next best substitute (in his case a leg).

Also, in the end Gollum got his ring back and was destroyed with it.

Perhaps those of you who have " divorced " your parents have done just

that - given the " ring " back and destroyed them both (in terms of

their presence in your personal psyche).

Does this make sense to anyone else besides me?

If only we all had a Sam to help us along the way! Perhaps we do,

and perhaps we also have to leave our families and replace it with an

odd assortment of other people who happen upon the same journey with

us (as in the original Fellowship).

But, perhaps I'm speculating too deeply. I just thought it was

interesting.

Cathi

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[Guest guest]

Cathi, interesting speculation. I haven't seen " The Return of the

King " , it opens here today. I recently read the book and saw the

first two films.

I thought of Gollum more as a multiple personality than a BPD, but

now that you mention it, your explanation makes sense to me.

> In the end Frodo couldn't rid himself

> of the ring and had to have his finger " amputated " from his body.

> I was wondering if Dan's amputation desire might be similar.

This is completely consistent with my feelings. I feel that if I

were an amputee I would be free. I probably wouldn't need Ritalin

any more. I could even visit my mother, although I wouldn't need

to, and she would have no power over me. Like Frodo, though, I could

probably never completely recover from the illness of the soul.

Last week the feeling of needing to be an amputee had diminished a

lot, after I increased the Ritalin dosage. Now it is back. I can't

keep increasing dosage forever...

While the amputee feeling was low I tried to imagine what would

happen if I visited or contacted my mother, having decided against

surgery. I would not have a shield. She would say " I am so happy

for you that you conquered your need to lose your leg " . I would

translate it as " I am so happy for me that I got my claws back into

you and your body will remain what I want it to be " .

> Since the soul can't be operated on, perhaps a

> body part is the next best substitute (in his case a leg).

Sounds crazy, doesn't it? But that is what it feels like to me. I

now have two shrinks telling me I am wrong, in completely different

ways.

The Jungian shrink says if I do enough analysis I will understand

myself and overcome this need. He says that if I have the leg off, I

will just get caught up in something else. He is surely right about

one thing. If I continue analysis until I die, then the need will

end.

The shrink who thinks it is ADHD says that I need to hang in there,

and eventually the Ritalin will have its effect. He says that

analysis will do nothing for this problem.

I feel that I am out of the tunnel of worthlessness. I am feeling

confident in myself. I am hanging onto the lamppost.

I am still inside the tunnel of the amputee wish, and the light stays

far away. If the light is a train, I will know what to do.

- Dan

[Guest guest]

Cathi,

A good way to keep me out of lurkerdom is to tempt my ambitions to

become a Tolkien literary scholar

I don't think that Gollum is BPD (for reasons that I won't go into

here, has more to do with literature than BPD), but I do think that

the struggle that _Samwise_ goes through seeing Frodo become

corrupted by the ring (and seeing what he could become, eg. Gollum)

is akin to our struggles as non-BPs.

Much more important than Gollum (or Frodo, for that matter) being BPD

or not is Samwise Gamgee's role as a Non-(ORD- One Ring Disorder!).

He is not _as_ affected by the lure of the Ring as Frodo (although he

does wear it for a time, the lust for the Ring is not as ingrained as

Frodo's or Gollum's). He instead sees what it does to Frodo day by

day, and he sees how obsessed Gollum is with the Ring, even sixty-

some odd years after it was taken from him. He is unable to stop the

addiction to the ring, or to curb it effectively.

Samwise's struggle is our own. We feel powerless to stop what is

happening to our loved one, yet we continue on regardless of what it

will do to us in the end. Samwise is always the optimist, always the

voice of reason in he and Frodo's journey into Darkness. Frodo's mind

is entangled in doubt and despair, though he knows no other way to

fight it but to continue on. Frodo often lashes out at Sam, or

darkens his optimism, but he doesn't know what he is doing or why.

Sam behaves in a model non-BP way, never taking offense to Frodo's

actions or fanning the flames. He knows what the cause is and seeks

to find a way to end it, for good or for ill. (of course, Samwise

realizes that that solution may end his life; I don't think we nons

would like our relationship with the BP in our lives to end our

existence!). Frodo would have become " Gollum II " if it were not for

Sam (or Gollum for that matter).

This of course makes Sam a huge hero in the story (some would say he

is _the_ hero of the story, but I think that discounts Frodo's

determination and resolve to see the Quest through), and I think

makes Samwise a good role model for us Nons, especially in how he

copes with Frodo's behavior.

Enjoy the film, and cheer for Master Samwise!! (he should really be

called " Fullwise " - " Samwise " literally means " halfwit " or " simpleton " )

Glad that I could combine interests with this post. =)

Námarië,

Z.

[Guest guest]

>Cathi,

I have been a huge fan of LOTR since I read it the first time in high

school (20 some-odd years ago). Frodo has always been my hero

because he strives so hard to fight the evil fo the ring and is

really the only person strong enough to be able to carry it and not

be corrupted by it. Of course, he is at the very end, right before

the ring is destroyed, but anyone other character would have

succombed long before he did. Frodo has always been my hero. He is

proof that the smallest of us can accomplish the greatest things if

we put our minds to it.

I have always thought of Gollum as a multiple personality, but now

that you mention it, he definitely has some BP characteristics as

well. To me, the ring itself represents BP more than Gollum does.

The ring is pure evil and it's purpose is to corrupt absolutely. I'm

sure some people may find my view of BP as extreme, but I see BP as

being the most destructive mental illness because unlike other mental

illnesses, the sufferer DOES have some control, they just choose not

to. I believe a BP is no more capable of ridding themselves of their

evil than the ring of power. All BP's need a Frodo and Samwise to

destroy their evil, figuratively speaking, of course.

Tammy

For any Lord of the Rings Fans out there:

>

> I just watched The Two Towers again last night. Does anyone else

> think Gollum is BP, or perhaps BP's are like Gollum? And that KO's

> are a little like Frodo?

>

> This ties a little into whether or not BP's have any choice in

their

> behavior. I think Smeagol had no choice but to be Smeagol (except

at

> the very beginning when he took the ring), but he did have a choice

> whether or not to be Gollum.

>

> I thought it interesting, too, that the ring used to be Gollum's,

and

> without it Gollum preceived that he had no other purpose/life, and

> that Frodo " inherited " the ring so-to-speak from Gollum. So Gollum

> *needed* to be with Frodo, but he hated Frodo for that very

reason.

> It's like our nadas lost their " rings " to us, (we " inherited " it

> against our will, a little like Frodo), but always want it near

them,

> too. And like Gollum vaccilated between his " two natures " as it

> were, wanting to be good/loved/protected, but also wanting control

> (alternatingly idolizing and hating Frodo, but either way never

> leaving him alone) - I think BP's are very much like that with us

> KOs. He even alternates between having dangerous rages and

pathetic

> wailing pity parties - whatever is most likely to help him get his

> way.

>

> The weight, the pull, the sensitivity to evil that Frodo

experienced

> because of the ring reminds me of myself, at least, as a KO. And

the

> way Frodo looked at Gollum and needed to believe that he could be

> good, that he could be Smeagol, was so important to him because he

> was afraid that the ring would turn himself into another Gollum.

> Just like many of us are afraid that we might also be BP, or that

> because of our inherited " ring " we have become something other

> than " human " (ie: damaged goods as was mentioned in other posts).

>

> Yet, I think in the end it is all about choices. Frodo could

easily

> have become another Gollum. He could have let the ring destroy him

> and his whole world. And yet, inspite of the suffering, he

continued

> on his journey alone and misunderstood, and haunted. And yet he

> refused to give up holding on to what was good in the world, and to

> what was good in himself. Smeagol fought the same struggle, but

> chose to surrender to his greed for control, until in the end he

was

> consumed by his desire and it virtually took away his ability to

> choose.

>

> Smeagol took the ring by choice in the beginning, but Frodo

inherited

> it. I tend to believe that most BP's have some choice, at least in

> the beginning, whereas the choice of KO's is more of having it

placed

> upon us against our will, and struggling against it our whole lives

> until it is finally destroyed after fighting off all our " demons "

as

> it were.

>

> I was also thinking about Dan. In the end Frodo couldn't rid

himself

> of the ring and had to have his finger " amputated " from his body.

I

> was wondering if Dan's amputation desire might be similar. That

the

> will just isn't strong enough on it's own and an outside party has

to

> actually remove it. Since the soul can't be operated on, perhaps a

> body part is the next best substitute (in his case a leg).

>

> Also, in the end Gollum got his ring back and was destroyed with

it.

> Perhaps those of you who have " divorced " your parents have done

just

> that - given the " ring " back and destroyed them both (in terms of

> their presence in your personal psyche).

>

> Does this make sense to anyone else besides me?

> If only we all had a Sam to help us along the way! Perhaps we do,

> and perhaps we also have to leave our families and replace it with

an

> odd assortment of other people who happen upon the same journey

with

> us (as in the original Fellowship).

>

> But, perhaps I'm speculating too deeply. I just thought it was

> interesting.

> Cathi

[Guest guest]

Tammy and Cathi,

Last night I watched the first Lord of the Rings film (for about the

fourth time), with special attention to Frodo as me and the Ring as

the load I carry. I was looking at Samwise Gamgee as a true hero,

too. It really does hang together that way.

I will watch the second film, and then see the final one at the

theatre this week. I never had anyone like Samwise in my life, and I

don't know anyone who is like that now. I am feeling very sad about

that. I have to be my own Samwise at the same time as I carry the

Ring. Like Frodo, I have refused to dump the Ring on someone else.

I will destroy the Ring.

- Dan

[Guest guest]

I have to be my own Samwise at the same time as I carry the

> Ring. Like Frodo, I have refused to dump the Ring on someone

else.

> I will destroy the Ring.

>

> - Dan

Dan, I know you will. I also know you won't succumb to it's evil

influence. Really, I think it's the " little ones " that somehow or

other have the greatest power over the influence of evil. I see that

in you.

Kya-Amorita

[Guest guest]

> >

> I will watch the second film,

The second film really emphasizes the support Samwise gives to

Frodo. The ring's power is slowly taking over Frodo and there are at

least two instances where he brings him back to reality.

and then see the final one at the

> theatre this week. I never had anyone like Samwise in my life, and

I

> don't know anyone who is like that now. I am feeling very sad

about

> that. I have to be my own Samwise at the same time as I carry the

> Ring.

I think we all need to be our own Samwise because in the end, all we

really have is ourselves. We alone understand our own experience

being 'possessed' by the ring of power (our nadas power over us).

Like Frodo, I have refused to dump the Ring on someone else.

> I will destroy the Ring.

Touche! As far as I'm concerned, that's the whole point. By

destroying the ring, we destroy the power.

If you have never read the books, you must do so. The books take you

inside the minds of Frodo and Samwise and you see more of their fears

which make it even more meaningful. LOTR is my favorite story of all

time.

By the way, I still plan to read Treasure Island. My plant (factory

where I work) is shut down until Jan. 5, so I plan on catching up on

my reading. I'll post when I've finished it.

Merry Christmas,

Tammy

[Guest guest]

> If you have never read the books, you must do so.

Tammy, I re-read them several months ago. I watched " The Two Towers "

again, and then " The Return of the King " . The Ring trilogy has

bumped my all-time favorite film, " The Wizard of Oz " , into second

place.

> By the way, I still plan to read Treasure Island.

My shrink asked me to order him a copy of " Treasure Island " . I think

he wants to understand why I identify with Long Silver so much,

and also he likes to read stories and to improve his English. We do

the therapy in French.

My sister sent me a book for Christmas: a biography of the American

artist N.C. Wyeth. He illustrated many books, including " Treasure

Island " . I will order an edition of it with his paintings, one copy

for me and one for my shrink. Amazon.com has it. Anyhow, I am

seeing that the reason my sister chose that biography for me is that

N.C. Wyeth suffered from a really severe BPD mother.

I called my parents on Christmas and had a really enjoyable

conversation. I was able to keep it on track. It was my father who

kept trying to derail it. I really am making progress. The only

remaining obstacle to true freedom is that the wish to lose my leg is

still intense. I cannot think of anything I would rather have. This

year I will resolve it one way or the other.

- Dan

[Guest guest]

> > I called my parents on Christmas and had a really enjoyable

> conversation. I was able to keep it on track. It was my father

who

> kept trying to derail it. I really am making progress.

That's great! Congratulations! My mom has a christmas party each

year and this is the first year I didn't call during the party. The

only person that was there who I would have talked to was my daughter

and I can talk to her anytime. I'm sure I've been labeled a bitch

(again) and it doesn't bother me in the least bit. If all those

people (my mom's family and friends) choose to believe her lies about

me, that's their problem, not mine. I enjoyed a guilt-free holiday

with my husband, son, and father and I have no regrets. Damn! It

feels good!

The only

> remaining obstacle to true freedom is that the wish to lose my leg

is

> still intense. I cannot think of anything I would rather have.

This

> year I will resolve it one way or the other.

Good for you. I support you in whatever decision you make. Only you

know what is best for you.

Tammy