Re: Armour is Not for Me, Dr. Wiseman

[Guest guest]

All doctors practice as if they were mass producing something. A certain condition is a) treated in this way by 80% of doctors and so they do it that way. 80% of doctors founder around with thyroid problems so most doctors feel kind of comfortable fumbling the ball in one direction or another. Everyone else is. If they find a path that really seems to help most people, they tend to stick with it.

The reasons Doctors follow the same protocol for the same issue is that either it seems to get results more often than not AND/OR it is the mandated protocol by the AMA and they sidestep it at their peril.

For most people suffering thyroid issues Armour works better. You are correct in that you may need another source of thyroid hormone, for whatever reason. Some do! I bet Manzanero in Austin would listen to you and and I know Dr. in Lubbock would also. Manzanero may be a better bet, actually. If you are asking ANY doctor to go against the protocol he has decided upon, however, you will want to be very firm and clear about your reasons.

Good Luck! Terijo

[Guest guest]

Manzanero in Austin, Sebring in Wimberly, Launius in ville are the first three that come to mind. Akright and Fetchik in SA, Mann in Bulverde, Hansen and Hartig in Webster, V. in Houston, Tompkins in Houston, Ramon Garza in SA, Owens in Mesquite are the ones I know will prescribe synthetics for those who need them. You might want to find out if you are allergic to pork or if it is the fillers. If you are allergic to the fillers and not the pork, then you might want to consider compounded dessicated thyroid. If you are referring to Shomon's Top Doc List, there is no particular criteria for being listed except that someone

liked that doc and filled out the form on the site. The list that I maintain for our Texas Thyroid Groups is mainly Armour docs, but toward the end of the list are some docs who Rx synthetic T3. It just so happens that in Texas, more docs are willing to Rx Armour than Cytomel or Thyrolar. But I list both. Initially, docs got on the appropriate part of my list just by prescribing Armour or Cytomel. If we get reports that they keep folks undermedicated, they quickly become history. I do not bother to list docs who Rx only synthetic T4. They can be found on any street corner. . . . . You might note that I never listed Wiseman. There were too many red flags that suggested that he did

not know what he was doing, not the least of which was his unwillingness to test Free T4 levels. The only place on our site where you might have found Wiseman is in our doctor database, where our members can list their docs with no interference from the moderator. It is the official position of the Texas Thyroid Groups that no one thyroid medication is right for everyone. Ideally, every doc ought to be willing to Rx any thyroid medication a patient may need. The reality is that most of the few docs who prescribe any form of T3 at all are in love with one particular form of it, whether it be Armour, Cytomel, Thyrolar or compounded time release T3, and God help the patient who wants or needs anything different. As for docs who really know what they are doing, they are few and far between. We know of maybe half a dozen at most in Texas. . . . . If you are not currently involved in litigation with the doc whom you accuse of malpractice, you might want to write him up on our database. Please avoid any libelous statements of opinion. As Joe Friday says, "Just the facts, ma'am, just the facts. . . ." demeterweeps wrote: After two weeks on Armour, I noticed that my stomach would swell like crazy; reading through other message boards, along with this one, I see that it does cause some stomach problems.However, the minute I took Armour, I would start to fall asleep, and the minute I ate, I looked like I had shot up with Heroin. I could take it no longer. Muscles spasms, looking 6 months pregnant, and falling asleep the minute

I took Armour??? I called Wiseman's office and since he was going out of the country this week, he could not be bothered. The nurse called back and asked what was going on, and I told her I hadn't felt this awful, not even after I-131 radiation. She said the doctor said to continue for the next two weeks, then go get the bloodwork and we would make an appointment. I told her that I was discontinuing the Armour and going back on the Synthroid/Cytomel mix. Now, when he comes back, I will ask her if he wouldn't mind continuing me on the mixture I was taking. If he does not want to, which I am sure he won't, then I am on the search again. I would never even second guess Dr. DeVries in Dallas, but I don't know how much longer his practice will be open. Also, I needed to see if my DHEA was low, and Dr. DeVries could not do that. Well, now I know the DHEA is low and the only thing that works is the straight up T3. I need to find a doctor that will not play with my

medication and continue the work that Dr. DeVries did.We were in Dallas at the time, and Dr. DeVries' office was closed, so my husband called Walgreens and asked for loaners until after Labor Day. The pharmacist also told my husband that about 4 percent of people who try Armour, can not metabolize it and it causes a paradoxical effect. I always fall in that category!I am not saying anything ill about Dr. Wiseman. However, if you go to his website and do the little checklist about the thyroid, about 80 percent of the population would answer yes to his 5 little questions. Personally, from being in his office, I don't think he knows about thyroid as much as he claims. I can honestly tell you I don't even think he glanced at my chart. His clientle is more the uppity, 40 somethings of Austin that want to stay young, and who knows? Maybe he prescribes Armour to anyone who is 'losing hair' (yes, that's all he kept saying...nothing about the outer half

of the eyebrow missing, didn't even touch my big adams apple, didn't check the skin on my back, didn't check reflexes...nothing! Just sat across the room). That is all he kept mentioning and I have a beautiful mane of hair. Also, it's Hashimotos not just Hypothyroid. I dunno. I'm sketchy on him. He is a nice enough person, but he is no where near the doctor that DeVries is. DeVries is just aging and doesn't have enough money running through his practice. If he will continue me on my original meds, than I will continue to see him and maybe let him know a little more about the thyroid...things that Dr. DeVries taught me. The one thing I don't play around with, after six years of what I will freely call 'malpractice' from another unmentionable doctor, is matters of the Thyroid. You don't go from Graves, to malpractice, to Hashimotos and let a doctor tell you how you feel. They aren't Gods. My own cousin is a doctor in California, and I wouldn't see

her.Does anyone know of a doctor in Austin/San , heck anywhere in Texas that will go along with Synthroid and Cytomel? I'm not broken, so I don't need to be fixed. My DHEA was just whacked and I appreciate Dr. Wiseman testing me for that. Does someone become a Top Doc just by prescribing Armour? Sorry if it sounds like a rant, but I don't like to see doctors being congratulated because they give out Armour. They need to be a little smarter than me, and so far DeVries blows them all out of the water.

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[Guest guest]

I do not know anyone that Dr. R has on synthetic T3 and T4. Do you? Terijo Brewton wrote: All doctors practice as if they were mass producing something. A certain

condition is a) treated in this way by 80% of doctors and so they do it that way. 80% of doctors founder around with thyroid problems so most doctors feel kind of comfortable fumbling the ball in one direction or another. Everyone else is. If they find a path that really seems to help most people, they tend to stick with it. The reasons Doctors follow the same protocol for the same issue is that either it seems to get results more often than not AND/OR it is the mandated protocol by the AMA and they sidestep it at their peril. For most people suffering thyroid issues Armour works better. You are correct in that you may need another source of thyroid hormone, for

whatever reason. Some do! I bet Manzanero in Austin would listen to you and and I know Dr. in Lubbock would also. Manzanero may be a better bet, actually. If you are asking ANY doctor to go against the protocol he has decided upon, however, you will want to be very firm and clear about your reasons. Good Luck! Terijo

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Jan, you rock...I wish you were a doctor!!!Thanks everyone for listening to me rant. The only problem with Manzanero is that he doesn't accept insurance. I will continue with Dr. DeVries, but like I mentioned before hand, I am so scared that his practice won't make it; he is the first poor doctor I have seen. I am taking note on the others that you suggested. I have seen Sebring mentioned on here before, but I didn't see this doctor in the database. I'm probably just blind. Oh, Jan, I never meant to imply that you consider these people top docs in any way, shape or form. I was feeling evil. I remember a time Scumpia was on top docs and she was taken away.The fillers on the Armour? I need to look into that. I am not allergic to pork, so maybe it is the fillers and I should have gone with his compound. However, if he isn't even willing to discuss the 'why' of it all, why bother with him? No need to line his pockets. I am not in litigation with the 'malpractice' doctor. We all know that malpractice suits end up killing your bank account because they drag them out forever. He just didn't know anything about thyroids and ended up under medicating me, sending me to a psychiatrist and at that point, for almost 6 years, I was diagnosed as Schizophrenic. That was HMO days, prior to thyroid awareness groups like this one, ugh...bad years. Well, they are over, right? Thanks for ya'll's support,Demeterweeps> After two weeks on Armour, I noticed that my stomach would swell like crazy; reading through other message boards, along with this one, I see that it does cause some stomach problems.> > However, the minute I took Armour, I would start to fall asleep, and the minute I ate, I looked like I had shot up with Heroin. I could take it no longer. Muscles spasms, looking 6 months pregnant, and falling asleep the minute I took Armour??? > > I called Wiseman's office and since he was going out of the country this week, he could not be bothered. The nurse called back and asked what was going on, and I told her I hadn't felt this awful, not even after I-131 radiation. She said the doctor said to continue for the next two weeks, then go get the bloodwork and we would make an appointment. I told her that I was discontinuing the Armour and going back on the Synthroid/Cytomel mix. Now, when he comes back, I will ask her if he wouldn't mind continuing me on the mixture I was taking. If he does not want to, which I am sure he won't, then I am on the search again. I would never even second guess Dr. DeVries in Dallas, but I don't know how much longer his practice will be open. Also, I needed to see if my DHEA was low, and Dr. DeVries could not do that. Well, now I know the DHEA is low and the only thing that works is the straight up T3. I need to find a doctor that will not play with my medication and continue the work> that Dr. DeVries did.> > We were in Dallas at the time, and Dr. DeVries' office was closed, so my husband called Walgreens and asked for loaners until after Labor Day. The pharmacist also told my husband that about 4 percent of people who try Armour, can not metabolize it and it causes a paradoxical effect. > I always fall in that category!> > I am not saying anything ill about Dr. Wiseman. However, if you go to his website and do the little checklist about the thyroid, about 80 percent of the population would answer yes to his 5 little questions. Personally, from being in his office, I don't think he knows about thyroid as much as he claims. I can honestly tell you I don't even think he glanced at my chart. His clientle is more the uppity, 40 somethings of Austin that want to stay young, and who knows? Maybe he prescribes Armour to anyone who is 'losing hair' (yes, that's all he kept saying...nothing about the outer half of the eyebrow missing, didn't even touch my big adams apple, didn't check the skin on my back, didn't check reflexes...nothing! Just sat across the room). That is all he kept mentioning and I have a beautiful mane of hair. Also, it's Hashimotos not just Hypothyroid. I dunno. I'm sketchy on him. He is a nice enough person, but he is no where near the doctor that DeVries is. DeVries is just aging> and doesn't have enough money running through his practice. > > If he will continue me on my original meds, than I will continue to see him and maybe let him know a little more about the thyroid...things that Dr. DeVries taught me. The one thing I don't play around with, after six years of what I will freely call 'malpractice' from another unmentionable doctor, is matters of the Thyroid. You don't go from Graves, to malpractice, to Hashimotos and let a doctor tell you how you feel. They aren't Gods. My own cousin is a doctor in California, and I wouldn't see her.> > Does anyone know of a doctor in Austin/San , heck anywhere in Texas that will go along with Synthroid and Cytomel? I'm not broken, so I don't need to be fixed. My DHEA was just whacked and I appreciate Dr. Wiseman testing me for that. > > Does someone become a Top Doc just by prescribing Armour? > > Sorry if it sounds like a rant, but I don't like to see doctors being congratulated because they give out Armour. They need to be a little smarter than me, and so far DeVries blows them all out of the water.> > > ---------------------------------> Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when.>

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Terijo...but the Manzanero not taking insurance. I just can't do that now. I've heard a lot about ...I'm intrigued. But broke. Let's just pray that DeVries makes it through another year while I hunt down another doctor to bother.>> All doctors practice as if they were mass producing something. A certain> condition is a) treated in this way by 80% of doctors and so they do it that> way. 80% of doctors founder around with thyroid problems so most doctors> feel kind of comfortable fumbling the ball in one direction or another.> Everyone else is. If they find a path that really seems to help most> people, they tend to stick with it.> > The reasons Doctors follow the same protocol for the same issue is that> either it seems to get results more often than not AND/OR it is the mandated> protocol by the AMA and they sidestep it at their peril.> > For most people suffering thyroid issues Armour works better. You are> correct in that you may need another source of thyroid hormone, for whatever> reason. Some do! I bet Manzanero in Austin would listen to you and and I> know Dr. in Lubbock would also. Manzanero may be a better bet,> actually. If you are asking ANY doctor to go against the protocol he has> decided upon, however, you will want to be very firm and clear about your> reasons.> > Good Luck! Terijo>

[Guest guest]

The database is not the only doctor list on our site.

Dr. Sebring is on our list of Texas Armour Docs in "Files." That is the list mantained by the moderator and is kept updated as good and bad reports come in. I am about to delete Dr. Gibbs. . . . .

Most of the better thyroid docs are not in network for any insurance. robinson in Lubbock takes some insurance, but not all.

>> Jan, you rock...I wish you were a doctor!!!> > Thanks everyone for listening to me rant. The only problem with> Manzanero is that he doesn't accept insurance. I will continue with Dr.> DeVries, but like I mentioned before hand, I am so scared that his> practice won't make it; he is the first poor doctor I have seen.> > I am taking note on the others that you suggested. I have seen Sebring> mentioned on here before, but I didn't see this doctor in the database.> I'm probably just blind.> > Oh, Jan, I never meant to imply that you consider these people top docs> in any way, shape or form. I was feeling evil. I remember a time Scumpia> was on top docs and she was taken away.> > The fillers on the Armour? I need to look into that. I am not allergic> to pork, so maybe it is the fillers and I should have gone with his> compound. However, if he isn't even willing to discuss the 'why' of it> all, why bother with him? No need to line his pockets.> > I am not in litigation with the 'malpractice' doctor. We all know that> malpractice suits end up killing your bank account because they drag> them out forever. He just didn't know anything about thyroids and ended> up under medicating me, sending me to a psychiatrist and at that point,> for almost 6 years, I was diagnosed as Schizophrenic. That was HMO days,> prior to thyroid awareness groups like this one, ugh...bad years. Well,> they are over, right?> > Thanks for ya'll's support,> Demeterweeps

[Guest guest]

Demeterweeps,

I am seeing Dr. W. as well. I like him a lot. I finally convinced

them to get me Unithroid so I can add it to my Armour. He wrote me

Synthroid last time and I told him I wanted Unithroid. He told me

that all synthetic T4 are the same. Couple of weeks later, Synthroid

was giving me terrible stomach aches and gas. I left them a message

and the nurse called the pharmacy to get me Unithroid. I was quite

happy. I had to get back on full Armour several weeks ago and start

from half of my dosage and inch up. I was on 2.5 grains and am now

on 1.75 grains. I get the sleepies, like you, after taking Armour

and it goes away an hour later. Don't know why. If anyone tells me

it's my adrenals, I know that's BS b/c my adrenals on the saliva

tests were right in the middle. I don't get the sleepies on a

synthetic T4 and I'm sure it's something to do with either the

fillers in Armour or the T3 that's doing something b/c it's fast

acting. I'm going to see how Armour will fare in the next several

months.

Can I ask what dosage you're on and if you only started Armour 2

weeks ago? I'm just wondering if you were started on too high a

dose. I started at .5 grains and I was tired a lot! Then everytime

I up the dosage I would feel tired for a day or two and then get

better and then I would get tired again, which means I had to up the

dose. After 2 grains, I would be fine. If you start too fast, your

body may not handle all that T3.

Armour may not be right for some individuals. Just b/c so and so is

on Armour and feels good doesn't necessarily mean that you will. I

think many people feel good on Armour but after many months to a year

may feel that the T4 is too low and the T3 is too high. Many end up

adding a T4 synthetic but doctors that know how to treat patients

this way are hard to find. When I told Dr. Wiseman about why I feel

tired and like crap on Armour, he told me that I need to get the

compounded version b/c the T3 is slow acting. I wanted to add a T4

to Armour before doing that. When I added T4 to my Armour, I felt

the best in 2 years! Sometimes I wonder if just a T4 will be good

enough for me. I read some messages in thyroid.about.com where some

people stopped their T3 and upped their T4 and noticed they felt

better or no difference which was a good thing.

If you can afford it, go see Dr. Manzanero. I saw Dr. Padma Horvit

last year and she was really good in that she detected my thyroid

problem even though my TSH was 2.8. I heard she prescribes Cytomel

but I don't know under what circumstances. I read that she will

prescribe Synthroid and get you at optimal levels b/4 adding T3. I

also considered Ehrin in Round Rock since she's pretty open to

T4/T3 combos such as Armour. I don't know how knowledgeable she is

but I sent an email to Tee and she told me that she really like her.

Like Jan recommended, Dr. Sebring's office would be a good idea too.

>

> After two weeks on Armour, I noticed that my stomach would swell

like

> crazy; reading through other message boards, along with this one, I

see

> that it does cause some stomach problems.

>

> However, the minute I took Armour, I would start to fall asleep,

and the

> minute I ate, I looked like I had shot up with Heroin. I could take

it

> no longer. Muscles spasms, looking 6 months pregnant, and falling

asleep

> the minute I took Armour???

>

> I called Wiseman's office and since he was going out of the country

this

> week, he could not be bothered. The nurse called back and asked

what was

> going on, and I told her I hadn't felt this awful, not even after I-

131

> radiation. She said the doctor said to continue for the next two

weeks,

> then go get the bloodwork and we would make an appointment. I told

her

> that I was discontinuing the Armour and going back on the

> Synthroid/Cytomel mix. Now, when he comes back, I will ask her if he

> wouldn't mind continuing me on the mixture I was taking. If he does

not

> want to, which I am sure he won't, then I am on the search again. I

> would never even second guess Dr. DeVries in Dallas, but I don't

know

> how much longer his practice will be open. Also, I needed to see if

my

> DHEA was low, and Dr. DeVries could not do that. Well, now I know

the

> DHEA is low and the only thing that works is the straight up T3. I

need

> to find a doctor that will not play with my medication and continue

the

> work that Dr. DeVries did.

>

> We were in Dallas at the time, and Dr. DeVries' office was closed,

so my

> husband called Walgreens and asked for loaners until after Labor

Day.

> The pharmacist also told my husband that about 4 percent of people

who

> try Armour, can not metabolize it and it causes a paradoxical

effect.

> I always fall in that category!

>

> I am not saying anything ill about Dr. Wiseman. However, if you go

to

> his website and do the little checklist about the thyroid, about 80

> percent of the population would answer yes to his 5 little

questions.

> Personally, from being in his office, I don't think he knows about

> thyroid as much as he claims. I can honestly tell you I don't even

think

> he glanced at my chart. His clientle is more the uppity, 40

somethings

> of Austin that want to stay young, and who knows? Maybe he

prescribes

> Armour to anyone who is 'losing hair' (yes, that's all he kept

> saying...nothing about the outer half of the eyebrow missing, didn't

> even touch my big adams apple, didn't check the skin on my back,

didn't

> check reflexes...nothing! Just sat across the room). That is all he

kept

> mentioning and I have a beautiful mane of hair. Also, it's

Hashimotos

> not just Hypothyroid. I dunno. I'm sketchy on him. He is a nice

enough

> person, but he is no where near the doctor that DeVries is. DeVries

is

> just aging and doesn't have enough money running through his

practice.

>

> If he will continue me on my original meds, than I will continue to

see

> him and maybe let him know a little more about the thyroid...things

that

> Dr. DeVries taught me. The one thing I don't play around with,

after six

> years of what I will freely call 'malpractice' from another

> unmentionable doctor, is matters of the Thyroid. You don't go from

> Graves, to malpractice, to Hashimotos and let a doctor tell you how

you

> feel. They aren't Gods. My own cousin is a doctor in California,

and I

> wouldn't see her.

>

> Does anyone know of a doctor in Austin/San , heck anywhere in

> Texas that will go along with Synthroid and Cytomel? I'm not

broken, so

> I don't need to be fixed. My DHEA was just whacked and I appreciate

Dr.

> Wiseman testing me for that.

>

> Does someone become a Top Doc just by prescribing Armour?

>

> Sorry if it sounds like a rant, but I don't like to see doctors

being

> congratulated because they give out Armour. They need to be a little

> smarter than me, and so far DeVries blows them all out of the water.

>

> Demeterweeps

>

[Guest guest]

Launius in ville does not take any insurance, but has very reasonable prices. He will Rx any thyroid meds that you may need. demeterweeps wrote: Thanks, Terijo...but the

Manzanero not taking insurance. I just can't do that now. I've heard a lot about ...I'm intrigued. But broke. Let's just pray that DeVries makes it through another year while I hunt down another doctor to bother.

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