Guest guest Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 > I know what estranged means--i'm the oldest child and i be estranged. what does enmeshed mean? tiki Hi Tiki: I can't describe what it means technically -- Edith and others here can do that expertly. But I can tell you what it looked like in my FOO. My " all good " older brother was in his late teens when Fada died suddenly. Brother became enmeshed with nada .... they couldn't seem to separate. He never dated, he never had his own life, he was never able to finish college even though he tried for years, he lived in the same house with nada till she died in 2000. Everyone who knew the situation wondered what would happen to him when nada died. So far nothing, accept all of nadas belongings are still in " their " house which is way creepy e.g. he hasn't disturbed even her underware in the drawer. Somehow their finances were also intertwined. Me and my younger brother were disinherited (with no explanation -- apparently BPs do this) so I don't know much about their finances accept they were " enmeshed " and $ was always a big secret. As a *result* of enmeshment with nada, at +50 years my older brother has never had an intimate relationship with another human being woman or man. don't think he's ever left the county he was born in. Not sure if he ever spent a night away from nadas side. I used to think he was asexual but now I believe he's just been too numbed out his whole life. He must be so emotionally crippled, yet he presents so well it's damn freaky if you ask me. That help some? ~daphne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 eeeks, have a similar brother that luckily helped him move out. no relationships and he's in his 40's. interesting about the disinheritance thing. my realization of bp was when they gave property to a cousin that is completely enmeshed and then made my brother the executor--when i'm the oldest child. for the experts--what is the difference between co-dependance and enmeshment? tiki Re: what does enmeshed me > I know what estranged means--i'm the oldest child and i be estranged. what does enmeshed mean? tiki Hi Tiki: I can't describe what it means technically -- Edith and others here can do that expertly. But I can tell you what it looked like in my FOO. My " all good " older brother was in his late teens when Fada died suddenly. Brother became enmeshed with nada .... they couldn't seem to separate. He never dated, he never had his own life, he was never able to finish college even though he tried for years, he lived in the same house with nada till she died in 2000. Everyone who knew the situation wondered what would happen to him when nada died. So far nothing, accept all of nadas belongings are still in " their " house which is way creepy e.g. he hasn't disturbed even her underware in the drawer. Somehow their finances were also intertwined. Me and my younger brother were disinherited (with no explanation -- apparently BPs do this) so I don't know much about their finances accept they were " enmeshed " and $ was always a big secret. As a *result* of enmeshment with nada, at +50 years my older brother has never had an intimate relationship with another human being woman or man. don't think he's ever left the county he was born in. Not sure if he ever spent a night away from nadas side. I used to think he was asexual but now I believe he's just been too numbed out his whole life. He must be so emotionally crippled, yet he presents so well it's damn freaky if you ask me. That help some? ~daphne Send questions and/or concerns to ModOasis-owner " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " a primer for non-BPs, can be ordered via 1-888-35-SHELL () and for the table of contents, go to: http://www.BPDCentral.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 Isn't enmeshment a PART of co-dependance? It seems like it is ONE of the aspects - but not the whole thing. Do I win a prize? Free what is the difference between co-dependance and enmeshment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 > Isn't enmeshment a PART of co-dependance? It seems like it is ONE of > the aspects - but not the whole thing. > > Do I win a prize? > Free? I think enmeshment is a part of codependency but codependency is not always a part of enmeshment. I think another term that applies to many of us KOs is parentification. I can't read up enough on that one. I don't consider myself codependent but feel the enmeshment and parentified terms do relate to me... (More on parentification can be found here: http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m0AZV/3_41/93444779/print.jhtml ) Some info I found on enmeshment: This bit is from http://www.edsupport.co.za/Wentwrong.asp : A close enmeshed child will find it extremely difficult to separate and develop close relationships with others. Therefore a close family without any boundaries is unhealthy. It is also important to understand that the adolescence child needs support from their parents encouraging greater individuation at the same time allowing them to separate from the family. They need freedom to move around the family boundaries. Mothers that suffer from severe anxiety with a low self esteem and who have not been working during the childbearing period will find it extremely difficult to re-enter the labour market, or engage as a individual in any meaningful way with the outside world. If there are problems in the marriage, a mother might hang on to her children for emotional support. One particular child often becomes the mother's confidante and support system. Should this happen, the child and others in the family will find it extremely difficult to separate. They begin to feel responsible for the parent when it should be the other way round. One must also understand how this unhealthy closeness will affect the future marriage of the children. From http://www.karunacounseling.com/articles.html Boundaries develop throughout the course of our lives, beginning with our earliest interactions with the world. Our caretakers can promote healthy boundaries through encouraging individuation, which is the process of developing a clear identity that is separate from the identity of the caretaker. Conversely, a caretaker can also encourage non-existent or unhealthy boundaries. Unhealthy boundaries come in a variety of forms – boundaries can be set both too close, resulting in enmeshed boundaries. Enmeshment occurs when our uniqueness and individuality are not respected. Enmeshed families demand that all members exist for one another and sacrifice themselves in the interest of sharing the same beliefs, values, and opinions.... Childhood experiences, most significantly from caregivers, teach us where our boundaries lie and how to treat those boundaries. Enmeshed families promote the idea that boundaries do not exist and that to develop personal boundaries is to betray the family. From http://www.ahealth.com/chp7a.html Enmeshment refers to an extreme form of proximity and intensity in family interactions. In a highly enmeshed, over-involved family, changes within one family member or in the relationship between two members reverberate throughout the system. Dialogues are rapidly diffused by the entrance of other family members. A conflict between two family members may set off a chain of shifting alliances within the whole family as other members get involved. Or one family member may relay messages from another to a third, blocking direct communication. Boundaries in enmeshed families are poorly differentiated, weak, and easily crossed. For instance, the spouse relationship is subordinated to carrying out parental functions, or parental control is ineffective. When boundaries are crossed, children may act inappropriately towards parents or siblings. Or a child may join or be enlisted by one parent against the other in decision making. Individuals within an enmeshed family system are poorly differentiated. Each person within all families is regulated by the family system to some degree, but in enmeshed families, members get lost in the system. Functioning in individually differentiated ways is handicapped because the boundaries that define individual autonomy are so weak. Excessive togetherness and sharing brings about a lack of privacy. Family members speak for each other and intrude on each others' thoughts and feelings. All these problems of enmeshment are reflected in the perceptions of the family members towards themselves and each other. These perceptions show the poorly differentiated sense of self. From http://www.sexualrecovery.com/resources/articles/treatingfamilies.php Enmeshed Families In enmeshed families, there are extreme forms of proximity and intensity in family interactions. Communication within these families is frequently based upon indirect patterns. For example, instead of people talking to each other, messages may be relayed from one family member to another, blocking any direct interactions. If a member crosses the family's boundary and seeks emotional connection with someone outside the family, it is experienced as betrayal; if a member tries to set a boundary within the system, it is seen as rejection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 Scout thanks for researching and posting all this info. It makes me feel ill tho, as it exactly describes my FOO. Gross....<insert puking sound> ~d. > I think enmeshment is a part of codependency but codependency is not > always a part of enmeshment. I think another term that applies to > many of us KOs is parentification. I can't read up enough on that > one. I don't consider myself codependent but feel the enmeshment and > parentified terms do relate to me... (More on parentification can be > found here: > http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m0AZV/3_41/93444779/print.jhtml ) > > Some info I found on enmeshment: > > This bit is from http://www.edsupport.co.za/Wentwrong.asp : > > A close enmeshed child will find it extremely difficult to separate > and develop close relationships with others. Therefore a close family > without any boundaries is unhealthy. It is also important to > understand that the adolescence child needs support from their > parents encouraging greater individuation at the same time allowing > them to separate from the family. They need freedom to move around > the family boundaries. > Mothers that suffer from severe anxiety with a low self esteem and > who have not been working during the childbearing period will find it > extremely difficult to re-enter the labour market, or engage as a > individual in any meaningful way with the outside world. If there are > problems in the marriage, a mother might hang on to her children for > emotional support. One particular child often becomes the mother's > confidante and support system. Should this happen, the child and > others in the family will find it extremely difficult to separate. > They begin to feel responsible for the parent when it should be the > other way round. One must also understand how this unhealthy > closeness will affect the future marriage of the children. > > From http://www.karunacounseling.com/articles.html > > Boundaries develop throughout the course of our lives, beginning with > our earliest interactions with the world. Our caretakers can promote > healthy boundaries through encouraging individuation, which is the > process of developing a clear identity that is separate from the > identity of the caretaker. Conversely, a caretaker can also encourage > non-existent or unhealthy boundaries. Unhealthy boundaries come in a > variety of forms – boundaries can be set both too close, resulting in > enmeshed boundaries. Enmeshment occurs when our uniqueness and > individuality are not respected. Enmeshed families demand that all > members exist for one another and sacrifice themselves in the > interest of sharing the same beliefs, values, and opinions.... > > Childhood experiences, most significantly from caregivers, teach us > where our boundaries lie and how to treat those boundaries. Enmeshed > families promote the idea that boundaries do not exist and that to > develop personal boundaries is to betray the family. > > From http://www.ahealth.com/chp7a.html > > Enmeshment refers to an extreme form of proximity and intensity in > family interactions. In a highly enmeshed, over-involved family, > changes within one family member or in the relationship between two > members reverberate throughout the system. Dialogues are rapidly > diffused by the entrance of other family members. A conflict between > two family members may set off a chain of shifting alliances within > the whole family as other members get involved. Or one family member > may relay messages from another to a third, blocking direct > communication. > > Boundaries in enmeshed families are poorly differentiated, weak, and > easily crossed. For instance, the spouse relationship is subordinated > to carrying out parental functions, or parental control is > ineffective. When boundaries are crossed, children may act > inappropriately towards parents or siblings. Or a child may join or > be enlisted by one parent against the other in decision making. > > Individuals within an enmeshed family system are poorly > differentiated. Each person within all families is regulated by the > family system to some degree, but in enmeshed families, members get > lost in the system. Functioning in individually differentiated ways > is handicapped because the boundaries that define individual autonomy > are so weak. Excessive togetherness and sharing brings about a lack > of privacy. Family members speak for each other and intrude on each > others' thoughts and feelings. All these problems of enmeshment are > reflected in the perceptions of the family members towards themselves > and each other. These perceptions show the poorly differentiated > sense of self. > > > From > http://www.sexualrecovery.com/resources/articles/treatingfamilies.php > > Enmeshed Families > In enmeshed families, there are extreme forms of proximity and > intensity in family interactions. Communication within these families > is frequently based upon indirect patterns. For example, instead of > people talking to each other, messages may be relayed from one family > member to another, blocking any direct interactions. If a member > crosses the family's boundary and seeks emotional connection with > someone outside the family, it is experienced as betrayal; if a > member tries to set a boundary within the system, it is seen as > rejection. 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Guest guest Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 >> interesting about the disinheritance thing. my realization of bp was when they gave property to a cousin that is completely enmeshed and then made my brother the executor--when i'm the oldest child.<< Yeah right -- about disinheritance. That's when the BP thing really sank in and made sense. I made sure I was there for Nada during the last year of her life...I found out after the fact (about being disinherited) but reading UBM helped me understand it's a common thing....not that I was expecting much but if she felt so strongly it would have been nice to hear it directly rather than from brother who used these words: " I'm in control now... " Yeah sure you are, dude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 Good stuff! <thumbs up> - Edith scoutbonon wrote: > Some info I found on enmeshment: > > This bit is from http://www.edsupport.co.za/Wentwrong.asp : > > A close enmeshed child will find it extremely difficult to separate > and develop close relationships with others. Therefore a close family > without any boundaries is unhealthy. It is also important to > understand that the adolescence child needs support from their > parents encouraging greater individuation at the same time allowing > them to separate from the family. They need freedom to move around > the family boundaries. > Mothers that suffer from severe anxiety with a low self esteem and > who have not been working during the childbearing period will find it > extremely difficult to re-enter the labour market, or engage as a > individual in any meaningful way with the outside world. If there are > problems in the marriage, a mother might hang on to her children for > emotional support. One particular child often becomes the mother's > confidante and support system. Should this happen, the child and > others in the family will find it extremely difficult to separate. > They begin to feel responsible for the parent when it should be the > other way round. One must also understand how this unhealthy > closeness will affect the future marriage of the children. > >>From http://www.karunacounseling.com/articles.html > > Boundaries develop throughout the course of our lives, beginning with > our earliest interactions with the world. Our caretakers can promote > healthy boundaries through encouraging individuation, which is the > process of developing a clear identity that is separate from the > identity of the caretaker. Conversely, a caretaker can also encourage > non-existent or unhealthy boundaries. Unhealthy boundaries come in a > variety of forms – boundaries can be set both too close, resulting in > enmeshed boundaries. Enmeshment occurs when our uniqueness and > individuality are not respected. Enmeshed families demand that all > members exist for one another and sacrifice themselves in the > interest of sharing the same beliefs, values, and opinions.... > > Childhood experiences, most significantly from caregivers, teach us > where our boundaries lie and how to treat those boundaries. Enmeshed > families promote the idea that boundaries do not exist and that to > develop personal boundaries is to betray the family. > >>From http://www.ahealth.com/chp7a.html > > Enmeshment refers to an extreme form of proximity and intensity in > family interactions. In a highly enmeshed, over-involved family, > changes within one family member or in the relationship between two > members reverberate throughout the system. Dialogues are rapidly > diffused by the entrance of other family members. A conflict between > two family members may set off a chain of shifting alliances within > the whole family as other members get involved. Or one family member > may relay messages from another to a third, blocking direct > communication. > > Boundaries in enmeshed families are poorly differentiated, weak, and > easily crossed. For instance, the spouse relationship is subordinated > to carrying out parental functions, or parental control is > ineffective. When boundaries are crossed, children may act > inappropriately towards parents or siblings. Or a child may join or > be enlisted by one parent against the other in decision making. > > Individuals within an enmeshed family system are poorly > differentiated. Each person within all families is regulated by the > family system to some degree, but in enmeshed families, members get > lost in the system. Functioning in individually differentiated ways > is handicapped because the boundaries that define individual autonomy > are so weak. Excessive togetherness and sharing brings about a lack > of privacy. Family members speak for each other and intrude on each > others' thoughts and feelings. All these problems of enmeshment are > reflected in the perceptions of the family members towards themselves > and each other. These perceptions show the poorly differentiated > sense of self. > > > From > http://www.sexualrecovery.com/resources/articles/treatingfamilies.php > > Enmeshed Families > In enmeshed families, there are extreme forms of proximity and > intensity in family interactions. Communication within these families > is frequently based upon indirect patterns. For example, instead of > people talking to each other, messages may be relayed from one family > member to another, blocking any direct interactions. If a member > crosses the family's boundary and seeks emotional connection with > someone outside the family, it is experienced as betrayal; if a > member tries to set a boundary within the system, it is seen as > rejection. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 looks like i'll be doing a bit of studying this weekend professor. thanks for the definition. it really helps. tiki Re: Re: what does enmeshed me > Good stuff! > <thumbs up> > > - Edith > > scoutbonon wrote: > > > Some info I found on enmeshment: > > > > This bit is from http://www.edsupport.co.za/Wentwrong.asp : > > > > A close enmeshed child will find it extremely difficult to separate > > and develop close relationships with others. Therefore a close family > > without any boundaries is unhealthy. It is also important to > > understand that the adolescence child needs support from their > > parents encouraging greater individuation at the same time allowing > > them to separate from the family. They need freedom to move around > > the family boundaries. > > Mothers that suffer from severe anxiety with a low self esteem and > > who have not been working during the childbearing period will find it > > extremely difficult to re-enter the labour market, or engage as a > > individual in any meaningful way with the outside world. If there are > > problems in the marriage, a mother might hang on to her children for > > emotional support. One particular child often becomes the mother's > > confidante and support system. Should this happen, the child and > > others in the family will find it extremely difficult to separate. > > They begin to feel responsible for the parent when it should be the > > other way round. One must also understand how this unhealthy > > closeness will affect the future marriage of the children. > > > >>From http://www.karunacounseling.com/articles.html > > > > Boundaries develop throughout the course of our lives, beginning with > > our earliest interactions with the world. Our caretakers can promote > > healthy boundaries through encouraging individuation, which is the > > process of developing a clear identity that is separate from the > > identity of the caretaker. Conversely, a caretaker can also encourage > > non-existent or unhealthy boundaries. Unhealthy boundaries come in a > > variety of forms – boundaries can be set both too close, resulting in > > enmeshed boundaries. Enmeshment occurs when our uniqueness and > > individuality are not respected. Enmeshed families demand that all > > members exist for one another and sacrifice themselves in the > > interest of sharing the same beliefs, values, and opinions.... > > > > Childhood experiences, most significantly from caregivers, teach us > > where our boundaries lie and how to treat those boundaries. Enmeshed > > families promote the idea that boundaries do not exist and that to > > develop personal boundaries is to betray the family. > > > >>From http://www.ahealth.com/chp7a.html > > > > Enmeshment refers to an extreme form of proximity and intensity in > > family interactions. In a highly enmeshed, over-involved family, > > changes within one family member or in the relationship between two > > members reverberate throughout the system. Dialogues are rapidly > > diffused by the entrance of other family members. A conflict between > > two family members may set off a chain of shifting alliances within > > the whole family as other members get involved. Or one family member > > may relay messages from another to a third, blocking direct > > communication. > > > > Boundaries in enmeshed families are poorly differentiated, weak, and > > easily crossed. For instance, the spouse relationship is subordinated > > to carrying out parental functions, or parental control is > > ineffective. When boundaries are crossed, children may act > > inappropriately towards parents or siblings. Or a child may join or > > be enlisted by one parent against the other in decision making. > > > > Individuals within an enmeshed family system are poorly > > differentiated. Each person within all families is regulated by the > > family system to some degree, but in enmeshed families, members get > > lost in the system. Functioning in individually differentiated ways > > is handicapped because the boundaries that define individual autonomy > > are so weak. Excessive togetherness and sharing brings about a lack > > of privacy. Family members speak for each other and intrude on each > > others' thoughts and feelings. All these problems of enmeshment are > > reflected in the perceptions of the family members towards themselves > > and each other. These perceptions show the poorly differentiated > > sense of self. > > > > > > From > > http://www.sexualrecovery.com/resources/articles/treatingfamilies.php > > > > Enmeshed Families > > In enmeshed families, there are extreme forms of proximity and > > intensity in family interactions. Communication within these families > > is frequently based upon indirect patterns. For example, instead of > > people talking to each other, messages may be relayed from one family > > member to another, blocking any direct interactions. If a member > > crosses the family's boundary and seeks emotional connection with > > someone outside the family, it is experienced as betrayal; if a > > member tries to set a boundary within the system, it is seen as > > rejection. > > > > > > Send questions and/or concerns to ModOasis-owner > " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " a primer for non-BPs, can be ordered via 1-888-35-SHELL () and for the table of contents, go to: > http://www.BPDCentral.com > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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