Re: Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder in KOs - Vicki

[Guest guest]

Hi Vicki,

> at least for me the

> kindness is the most humilating aspect of my mother, it makes me

> appear to be the problem and allows her to be the wounded do gooder.

Blech mine does that, too. She's all witch until she's confronted,

and then it's " woe is me my children are attacking me for no reason,

I've only been kind and loving to them " . And people on the outside

believe it.

> I asked him about her manuerving with my adult daughters and he

>said say nothing, they will not believe you, her position as

>grandmother and the senior family member will be her armore and I

>should just be motherly to them without telling them a thing. He

>said between graandchildren, daughter, mothers and grandmothers when

>they is no other senior adult the grandmother will prevail and even

>more so if I appear to be against her, his hope is to find a way to

>have her reveal her true self to the girls and hopefully feel some

>remorse.

I am outraged at this - how can he expect you to just stand aside and

watch it happen??? How is that even remotely fair??? It makes my

blood run cold, thinking that nada's reach is that far, and that you

have to just let it go on like that. I really feel for you, Vicki. In

thinking about starting my own family, I don't know what I'd do if

this happened, and yet I can see it happening with my nada, too. Can

you trust that your daughters will see the truth eventually? I'm

sorry I don't have any advice, I'm just upset by this. ((HUGS)) to

Vicki - we KOs know the truth.

[Guest guest]

In

> thinking about starting my own family, I don't know what I'd do if

> this happened, and yet I can see it happening with my nada, too.

Can

> you trust that your daughters will see the truth eventually? I'm

> sorry I don't have any advice, I'm just upset by this.

This is why I haven't yet had children, and why I chose to not have

children until my relationship with my mom was officially over. I

knew when I was 12 that I would never allow my mom to have any

contact with my children. I don't care if that sounds harsh, but I

feel that she is truly a person whose attributes are far outweighed

by the damage she does. If I ever have children, if I learned

anything from my mom it's that one must protect her children no

matter how one might be perceived or judged (such as harshly for not

letting grandma be a part of their lives). I will go to great

lengths to keep her away from my kids.

[Guest guest]

> This is why I haven't yet had children, and why I chose to not have

> children until my relationship with my mom was officially over. I

> knew when I was 12 that I would never allow my mom to have any

> contact with my children. I don't care if that sounds harsh, but I

> feel that she is truly a person whose attributes are far outweighed

> by the damage she does.

I must admit, I'm flat-out terrified of having children. It's my

biggest fear (there, I said it), partly because I feel so under-

equipped, having had no examples of what a good mother should be, and

also because of my own fleas, but a really BIG part of it is that I

know nada will try to force her way back into my life, and I'm scared

to death -- really scared -- of that. So far my strategy has been to

simply stay away from her, lie low, and that's worked. How do you

plan to keep her away if/when you decide to start a family? Have you

set boundaries with her already? I don't know how to handle this.

[Guest guest]

>

> ,

There is reason for concern but don't be totally negitive about

starting a family. Two or more factors are involved in my situation,

1. I was in denial of the reality of my mothers viciousness and I

thought it was her alcoholic husband for many years until he died.

I lived with my mother very little as a child and thought she was

like her mother and father, who were very kind to me.

2. My daughter that is being manipulated by grandma is in a marriage

with a Bipolar,who I believe is also at least Nar.,she married young

and until 5 years ago was a mama's girl even at 30).

As her husbands disorder began to surface he was having an affair (

at the Christian School where he taught, and the children went to

school, with another teacher, their 5 year old son kept asking me if

I knew daddy's girl friend and his sister at 7 would say " we are not

allowed to talk about that " so I was terrified for the children and

couldn't betray them,it was all very confusing. During this time my

son in law created many distorition campaigns and I began to be the

vilian to my daughter.

She is very bright and can't be ignorant of her husbands manuvering

so I believe she may have " made a deal with the devil " to protect her

children which includes keeping me out of their life. ( I was the

closest to the children and the only person they would confide in)

My daughter is a nurse and highly respected there very little I could

do to override their parenting.

How this creates a bond with my mother is another distorition

campaign.

It has taken 5 years but Mother used the separation and her

age/illlness's to solicit my daughters assistence. She also learned

from me over the past few years how to nurture,I showed her how she

did not nurture, thinking she had the capicity for change.

When there was an opening she went for the juggler, she made herself

fragil and had the hospital (she was there for minor surgery) call my

daughter saying she had no one else.

To further her goal, mother is cleaver, she has now began to critize

my daughter for the isolation from me and then turned that to her own

advantage, by not defending me, saying instead that it was unfair to

keep the children from her as well.

The fact that during this time separated from my grandchildren,

before I became unware with mother, I begged her to see the children,

is of course not part of mother agenda. My mother manage's to make me

appear irresponsible and unavaliable to my daughter( thus not caring)

My daughter is a victimn of both her husband and my mother and there

are fleas all over her.

Her sister, my younger daughter,is very close to me and see's the

situation superficially. She is loyal to me but not being able to

comprehend she is frustrated by the striffe in the family and can be

manipulated into wondering who realy has the problem. This is one of

the reasons that the shrink says do nothing (for the time being).

What happens is " he that causes or brings the confusion to the

attention of other family members becomes a target " .

I did not protect myself and I should have known better.

It does not help that I am an only child and so have no one who can

understand and speak up for me. Mother has the advantage of being

without the abilty to feel empthy.

Happy New Year To Everyone and Maybe some good news is coming with

the awarness level being heightened in the mental health community.

Warm Fuzzies to all, Vicki

[Guest guest]

>

How do you

> plan to keep her away if/when you decide to start a family? Have

you

> set boundaries with her already? I don't know how to handle this.

>

I have not really set " boundaries " in terms of having an ongoing

relationship with her. I know this might sound " borderline " -ish,

but with my mom it has to be all or nothing. Boundaries would not

ever be respected and she would make sure to make life miserable for

me before SHE would make the " choice " to end contact. I'd rather

never subject my children to that. I don't know exactly how I'd keep

her away if she chose to try to be in my life-- as it right now,

there is no contact whatsoever, it is mandated, and as long as the

circumstances don't change I would leave it this way.

I have huge boundary issues with my mom. I don't do so bad with most

other people-- it's just with her it's strange and I can't imagine

ever being a part of her life and having it be healthy for me.

Selfish as that sounds, she isn't my child and I don't have any

obligation to her. With her own mother, who abused her severely as a

child, not only did she not keep her away from us but she allowed her

to care for us. I can't imagine doing that but I suppose it had to

do with her own fears and wanting to be loved. I don't care if my

mom loves me, anymore I don't take it personally as I know it's a

problem related to her disorder and thinking. As long as she chooses

to not get help, I am letting her go.

I still don't have children so I probably don't have all this figured

out. It's all I've ever wanted to do (be a mother) but I am not

going to ever risk doing to a child what my mom did to hers. I'd

rather be by myself for the rest of my life.

[Guest guest]

> This is why I haven't yet had children, and why I chose to not have

> children until my relationship with my mom was officially over. I

> knew when I was 12 that I would never allow my mom to have any

> contact with my children. I don't care if that sounds harsh, but I

> feel that she is truly a person whose attributes are far outweighed

> by the damage she does. If I ever have children, if I learned

> anything from my mom it's that one must protect her children no

> matter how one might be perceived or judged (such as harshly for

not

> letting grandma be a part of their lives). I will go to great

> lengths to keep her away from my kids.

I had children well before I knew my nada was BP. I protected them

by moving to another state away from nada. I allow a relationship

(for now) as long as she doesn't do anything stupid. One story that

comes to mind was when my son (who is 11) was born, my nada

vehemently protested our having him circumcised (as if it were any of

her business to begin with) to the point where she convinced me

(because at the time she had that kind of power over me to make me

doubt my instincts) that there was something wrong with it and we

took him to the doctor to have it checked. Everything was fine just

as I knew it was, but my husband was furious with me for not

listening to my instincts and listening to her BS instead. I don't

blame him since it cost us $50 we didn't have to waste at the time.

My nada was all smug about it and finally admitted that she didn't

have a clue what she was talking about. She thinks circumcision is

barbaric, yet child abuse is okay. Typical BP. Believe the lie,

don't believe the reality.

I think it's important for those of you who haven't had children yet

to keep in mind that the decision to have them is a personal one and

has to be made for the right reasons. Allowing your nada to 'make

that decision for you' by not wanting to expose them to her is like

giving her too much power. You have the right as parents to decide

who your children associate with and who they don't. Also, it is

possible to explain to children that grandma is sick and to be wary

of some of her behaviors. That works very well for me. I have

taught my kids to protect themselves and recognize abusive behavior

from others, including Grandma. Luckily, I seem to be the main focus

of her projections and she rarely does anything objectionable with my

kids. I let her know when she does, and talking with my kids about

it seems to offset the negative emotions she causes them to feel. I

think it is good experience for them as long as they have me to offer

a different perspective. Just a thought.

Tammy

[Guest guest]

Otwoma wrote

My son is grown and a great guy, married and in the Air Force, but

even without much contact to the BP grandparents, I can see the

influence. It's the ole nature/nurture thing. Take care.

> Otwoma

Happy New Year ,,,

There is a book " Grandchildren of Alcoholic's " out of print but

possible to find, that would apply to KO's and their children also.

The therory is that while you and I may have had healthy grandparents

and other relatives our children who are troubled by what they see as

an unsafe world because of our reaction to the behaviour of our ill

parents, have no one to role model a safe family home. The book says

that the illness/addiction is then passed to the grandchild while the

parent may have escaped it.

I see that in my oldest daughter being played out, she must have felt

very unsafe as my mother created emotional crisis, one after another

in my life. As I was increasingly able escape her attacks at least

in my home the effects on my younger daughter are less.

The results of the present on slaught of ruthless attacks on my very

existence may be the most devestating blow of all to her blood

line,They are having their own mothers credibilty destroyed by their

own grandmother.( she is ever so kind about it to them)

She is activly pursuing ever possible person in the blood line, that

is my 2 daughters and my granddaughter, my grandsons are too young

and I do believe their fathers will protect them, my granddaughter is

not the child of my oldest daughters husband and that makes her a

target since my mother shame is a product having me out of wedlock in

the 40's when it was a reflection on the mothers reputation so severe

that she began to fabricate a false self anf false life. Her false

life was contingent on my willingness to keep her secret and when I

became an adult and was unable to live her lie in her eyes I became

her enemy.

My granddaughter and her mother(my daughter) are now the

the tool that my mother is using to strip me of all dignity. This

may break me as much as I try not to allow that to happen. It erodes

my self esteem daily now as my granddaughter, who I dearly love

approch's adulthood and has been separated from me for almost 5 five

years(since the age of ten) and as hard as she and I fought this we

did not win and she has been grandparented by people who are not her

blood and the same people are thoes that allowed her mother to be

deceived by their son and kept her (my granddaughter hiding his

infidelity from her mother) she was aware and was threated with

punishment if she told her mother or any one else, she told me and

even though I kept her secret her step father asked if she told

anyone, being afraid of lieing to him she confessed and he saw to it

that I was removed from her life. He did this by convincing my

daughter that I favored the girl over their son, my grandson and

later by blaming his infidelity(when he finally confessed it) on her

relationship with me, the closeness we shared he said forced him to

seek love elsewhere. She was given an a choice him or me and he would

kill himself if it was me.

The loss of bonding with granddaughter and the effects of removing

both grandchildren from my life are both emotionally crippling and a

statement that affects my reputaion, my son in law also so sates that

I did not raise my own daughters. The brutalness of it all

overwhemlms my mind while breaking my heart, I am just hoping I can

hang onto my spirit a little longer. Oh and as you all know these

attacks on our life are done long before we become aware and that

time is a great advantage to the attacker.

At 60 and with the financial crisis my mother manuverd me into she

gained alot of control, between son in law and mother's distorition

campaign's they removed my support in the community and in the

family. My mother and son in law with realizing helped one another's

cause's.

It has to do also with the respect that I instilled in my daughters

for family. Even believeing she is crazy my youngest daughter does

not want to hear that her grandmother is evil.

Sorry I got carried away again but like Edith says, write, write,

write.

I called my 85 year old father last night and even though he lives in

another state he told me of recent converstions with my mother that

were lies about me, he said her told her that he didn't believe her.

Who knows the truth, he is often a yes man but for the first time my

father told me he hated his father, a ruthless womanizer, for being

such a terrible role model. He has always before praised his father.

Thanks for listening, Vicki

[Guest guest]

Doesn't sound strange to me. My nada hasn't had contact with my children for

20- years. I explained that I need to protect myself and to protect them.

They have seen enough of her shenanigans over time anyway so they understand.