Re: Inappropriate touching question

[Guest guest]

> I hope this isn't triggering for anyone so please don't read on if

you

> suspect it might be. Not being sure about what normal is, I just

have

> to ask about this incident.

>

> and AHS wrote....>

> I don't consider that appropriate

> and I won't be doing it myself. What I'd like to know is if that is

> considered OK, or if it used to be considered OK but isn't now. I

> don't want to over-react, but Nada has paid for and me to go

> to Sydney and stay with her. (Some people say I'm prone to

> over-reacting while my psychiatrist thinks that I don't react enough

> to some things regarding my Nada.) Is this an indication that I

> shouldn't leave him alone with her? Is it an indication of something

> much darker?

>

> AHS

You wrote - I don't consider that appropriate and I won't be doing it

myself. I think you answered the first of your questions. Regarding

the other two questions, you may get some answers here, but it would

probably be reassuring, and give you confidence in your decision, to

get answers from professionals.

Sylvia

[Guest guest]

>

AHS

Check out message number 23982 dated 1/5/2004 posted by Brown

about children as poison containers. It is a not so brief history of

child abuse and it addresses the very issue you mentioned about your

mother. I must warn you that most of the information in the post

(it's a link to a website) is DEEPLY disturbing. Basically, it

states that behavior like your mothers was once (and still is, in

some parts of the world) considered acceptable. In todays society,

it is called child sexual abuse and if I were you, I wouldn't leave

my child alone with her. In fact, I would probably go as far as to

report it to the police. That's just my opinion, for what it's

worth, but I see it as a crime. The fact that she paid for you and

your baby to go to Sydney does NOT give her the right to sexually

abuse him. In fact, it doesn't give her any rights at all!

Protecting your child is NOT overreacting!

Tammy

I hope this isn't triggering for anyone so please don't read on if you

> suspect it might be. Not being sure about what normal is, I just

have

> to ask about this incident.

>

> My baby was born in July. My Nada came to 'help'. (The words " mixed

> blessing " are an understatement.) Nada has worked in hospitals all

her

> life and told me confidently that she's been dealing with newborns

all

> that time too. As a pathologist she had to take blood from them

> sometimes. She retired afew years ago so the timeframe I'm referring

> to is probably from the mid-1950s to late 1990s.

>

> Nada was changing Will's nappy and was chatting away about how to do

> it and as part of this she put her fingers on his genetils and gave

> them a quick jiggle. She said it's " reassuring " and helps them to

calm

> down.

>

> I boggled. What the hell was that? I don't consider that appropriate

> and I won't be doing it myself. What I'd like to know is if that is

> considered OK, or if it used to be considered OK but isn't now. I

> don't want to over-react, but Nada has paid for and me to go

> to Sydney and stay with her. (Some people say I'm prone to

> over-reacting while my psychiatrist thinks that I don't react enough

> to some things regarding my Nada.) Is this an indication that I

> shouldn't leave him alone with her? Is it an indication of something

> much darker?

>

> AHS

[Guest guest]

AHS,

You might want to listen to your gut reaction on this - the one that

tells you that something is wrong.

Granted - SHE could probably explain it away... and make it seem NOT

bad... and SHE possible MIGHT not THINK this is sexual. Yet - like

they teach the kids about touch now - " If it FEELS yucky - it IS

yucky! "

You have the right to set boundaries for both you AND your son. She

does not have the right to inflict ANY touch on your child which YOU

consider inappropriate - whether sexual, abusive, degrading, etc.

I am not sure where you are from, but in the US she would have a hard

time explaining to child protective people how that type of touch is

comforting.

I was sexually abused as a child - both physically - and through

observing my mother's sexual " acting out. " There are things she did

to our dog with her foot that should NOT be done to a dog, especially

in front of children.

And - I know I, as a KO, have learned to overlook and distort so

much..and let it be explained away.

I know I left my son with my mother when he was younger...back when

she liked that... and am probably unaware of much of what went on.

I considered it odd - that in not accepting my son - there are a few

things she said that sounded strange - like she ALMOST felt guilty -

that he was the " way he is " because of HER. She NEVER said this

directly of course. Directly - she uses blames his autism on ME ( " He

was raised in a car seat " i.e. I took him places with me. " He never

had a " normal " family, with a mother and a father {which is why she

tried to expose him to my father and her's " normality. " " He never had

other children to play with... " I guess that one would be true if you

didn't count him going to daycare, pre-school, playing with my

friend's children several times per week..)

Anyway - I digress...

There were things that she said that just made me FEEL - that she

almost felt guilty. That puzzled me from time to time if I thought

about it.

It wasn't until pretty recently that it HIT me - OMG! What did she DO

to him?????? I was raised by her - and knew of her abuse (well I knew

but I didn't know in ways)... and yet I blindly handed over my child

to her.

Sometimes things just blow right on past me..

Free

> I hope this isn't triggering for anyone so please don't read on if

you

> suspect it might be. Not being sure about what normal is, I just

have

> to ask about this incident.

>

> My baby was born in July. My Nada came to 'help'. (The words " mixed

> blessing " are an understatement.) Nada has worked in hospitals all

her

> life and told me confidently that she's been dealing with newborns

all

> that time too. As a pathologist she had to take blood from them

> sometimes. She retired afew years ago so the timeframe I'm referring

> to is probably from the mid-1950s to late 1990s.

>

> Nada was changing Will's nappy and was chatting away about how to do

> it and as part of this she put her fingers on his genetils and gave

> them a quick jiggle. She said it's " reassuring " and helps them to

calm

> down.

>

> I boggled. What the hell was that? I don't consider that appropriate

> and I won't be doing it myself. What I'd like to know is if that is

> considered OK, or if it used to be considered OK but isn't now. I

> don't want to over-react, but Nada has paid for and me to go

> to Sydney and stay with her. (Some people say I'm prone to

> over-reacting while my psychiatrist thinks that I don't react enough

> to some things regarding my Nada.) Is this an indication that I

> shouldn't leave him alone with her? Is it an indication of something

> much darker?

>

> AHS

[Guest guest]

Oh, by the way...I'm not sure if taking blood from newborns is

actually something to put on a resume for nuturing skills.

When my son was born - he had ABO blood incompatibility and needed

blood drawn from time to time.

One day I stood at the nursery window and watched as this guy

uncovered my blissful sleeping baby, stuck him in the foot, got his

blood, covered him up - leaving my baby crying.

How barbaric is that?

I wanted to bite the guy!

Free

Nada has worked in hospitals all her life and told me confidently

that she's been dealing with newborns all that time too. As a

pathologist she had to take blood from them sometimes. She retired

afew years ago so the timeframe I'm referring to is probably from the

mid-1950s to late 1990s.

[Guest guest]

Hi Tammy,

I remember that post and I read the whole article. Yes, it was very

disturbing. I will read it again because I really don't understand why

children, being innocent, are chosen to be " poison containers " . I

think if I could understand that then other things could come together

for me.

AHS

> Check out message number 23982 dated 1/5/2004 posted by Brown

> about children as poison containers. It is a not so brief history of

> child abuse and it addresses the very issue you mentioned about your

> mother. I must warn you that most of the information in the post

> (it's a link to a website) is DEEPLY disturbing. Basically, it

> states that behavior like your mothers was once (and still is, in

> some parts of the world) considered acceptable. In todays society,

> it is called child sexual abuse and if I were you, I wouldn't leave

> my child alone with her. In fact, I would probably go as far as to

> report it to the police. That's just my opinion, for what it's

> worth, but I see it as a crime. The fact that she paid for you and

> your baby to go to Sydney does NOT give her the right to sexually

> abuse him. In fact, it doesn't give her any rights at all!

> Protecting your child is NOT overreacting!

>

> Tammy

[Guest guest]

Hi Free,

Thank you for your reply and your story.

My Nada is so weird that the feeling and belief that I don't know

which way is up just overwhelmes me when I think about confronting her

about anything or worse, setting boundaries. Yeah, setting boundaries

is harder than just cutting her off I think.

I have been reading about dissociation and thinking that maybe she has

a few personalities in there. Maybe 3 or 4, and at least 2 of them

hate my guts, one enjoys feeling superior and makes a point of pitying

me, and one actually gives a damn about me. But then again, who can

tell if these are separate personalities or just lies? It's just so

hard to know who the hell I'm talking to.

But this new development has come out of leftfield. OK, I suspected

that leftfield (ie molestation or covert incest issue) might be there

but I really had thought that I'd investigated it and found that it

didn't exist. I've asked 3 different professionals for their opinions

and they've all said that they didn't see any indications of it. Then

again, I didn't really suspect my _mother_.

I know what you mean by your Nada almost saying that she feels guilty.

Once, about 8 years ago, Nada rang me while I was at work and asked me

point blank if I had ever been sexually abused. She said that she'd

been prompted by a documentary on TV the night before. (I wrote her a

letter telling her in no uncertain terms that she had to start being

more considerate of me.) These days I think that she is the one who

was sexually abused but she can't face it in herself and with her

inability to see me as separate, she saw me as the victim that she was.

She has always hated men, and encouraged me to aswell.

But now I wonder... if she openly did that to him, what would she have

done with me in secret? I could just imagine that she would say that

women don't sexually abuse and... YUCK! I just can't go any further on

my own.

My psychiatrist says that she's been so verbally cruel to me this year

because she's probably envious of me having a baby _boy_. Now this.

It was a small, quick incident but it feels like the tip of an

iceburg. As my dh says, it's just so creepy and " I wouldn't want some

old bag playing with my testicles! "

Goddamnnit I don't want to go to Sydney next week but I have to keep

her happy to keep her financial support while I am still at

university. I was already dreading going but now I'm on the edge of panic.

AHS

> > I hope this isn't triggering for anyone so please don't read on if

> you

> > suspect it might be. Not being sure about what normal is, I just

> have

> > to ask about this incident.

> >

> > My baby was born in July. My Nada came to 'help'. (The words " mixed

> > blessing " are an understatement.) Nada has worked in hospitals all

> her

> > life and told me confidently that she's been dealing with newborns

> all

> > that time too. As a pathologist she had to take blood from them

> > sometimes. She retired afew years ago so the timeframe I'm referring

> > to is probably from the mid-1950s to late 1990s.

> >

> > Nada was changing Will's nappy and was chatting away about how to do

> > it and as part of this she put her fingers on his genetils and gave

> > them a quick jiggle. She said it's " reassuring " and helps them to

> calm

> > down.

> >

> > I boggled. What the hell was that? I don't consider that appropriate

> > and I won't be doing it myself. What I'd like to know is if that is

> > considered OK, or if it used to be considered OK but isn't now. I

> > don't want to over-react, but Nada has paid for and me to go

> > to Sydney and stay with her. (Some people say I'm prone to

> > over-reacting while my psychiatrist thinks that I don't react enough

> > to some things regarding my Nada.) Is this an indication that I

> > shouldn't leave him alone with her? Is it an indication of something

> > much darker?

> >

> > AHS

[Guest guest]

AHS,

I think what you described was very inappropriate. I caught my BPD

ex-wife doing that to my oldest son once. She masturbated him until

he had an erection. I told her it was very inappropriate. She

didn't do it any more while I was around. She also used him as a

surrogate spouse.

He ended up gay and hating me. I know that common wisdom is that

you are born gay, but I think it can be created by sexual and

emotional abuse.

Please don't ever leave him alone with your Nada.

- Dan

[Guest guest]

Oh... I agree that setting boundaries is much harder than walking

away... especially when we are not " allowed " to set boundaries.

I'm not sure you have to panic at this point - but do be very aware,

keep your eyes open, and trust your instincts on this. It is - in the

very least - a red flag that calls out for you to pay attention.

I'm not sure you should just scream " keep your hands off my child -

you pervert! " at this point - as you nada would most likely explain

it all away - and perhaps even go out of her way to show you that she

WOULD do things YOUR way.

Yet - I think you should monitor her interactions with her son - even

if she thinks you are just a nervous new mother.

If she pulls that again - would you be comfortable telling her that

you are uncomfortable with that behavior? Even not really " blaming "

her - but just explaining that now-days things have changed - that

things are different now?

For some reason though - I do think that nada's DO know many of our

tactics to side-step issues.

I got so stressed with my mother's interactions with my son - and how

angry he made her. She just didn't seem to like him - but it was hard

for me to see with my eyes open - because it just didn't seem

possible that my mother could hate my child. And just like I did - as

a child - I kept thinking if my son would just do what she wanted -

she wouldn't be mad.

Luckily, I had a boyfriend at that time that validated my perception.

After some of our visits - he would say " Man. She can't STAND that

kid! " So I began to realize it wasn't just ME thinking that.

One evening - we were on our way home - and I was yelling at my son.

She had asked him if he wanted to play a game. And he honestly

said " no. " Well she was in a snit ALL night. So here I was yelling at

HIM! " Grandma just wanted to PLAY a GAME! Why couldn't you just PLAY

a GAME with GRANDMA!!!!!! "

I opened my eyes and realized this was CRAZY!

I never really came up with the thought that I was going to keep my

son away from my mother..and didn't announce that. I really didn't

even think of it that way. Just to make things more peaceful - I

started going to visit my parents without my son. I only took him

when we were " dropping by " for a few minutes. I started meeting her

for lunch - just me.

I never even really considered that " keeping him away from her. " I

mostly just thought I was " keeping peace. " I got to visit her. She

didn't have to be aggravated by him. He didn't have to be yelled at

by her and I. Seemed like a real win-win to me.

Yet several years later she was flipping out and yelling (about

me) " SHE kept him AWAY from US!!!! "

So she KNEW that was what I was doing - even though I didn't know

that.

Free

> > > I hope this isn't triggering for anyone so please don't read on

if

> > you

> > > suspect it might be. Not being sure about what normal is, I

just

> > have

> > > to ask about this incident.

> > >

> > > My baby was born in July. My Nada came to 'help'. (The

words " mixed

> > > blessing " are an understatement.) Nada has worked in hospitals

all

> > her

> > > life and told me confidently that she's been dealing with

newborns

> > all

> > > that time too. As a pathologist she had to take blood from them

> > > sometimes. She retired afew years ago so the timeframe I'm

referring

> > > to is probably from the mid-1950s to late 1990s.

> > >

> > > Nada was changing Will's nappy and was chatting away about how

to do

> > > it and as part of this she put her fingers on his genetils and

gave

> > > them a quick jiggle. She said it's " reassuring " and helps them

to

> > calm

> > > down.

> > >

> > > I boggled. What the hell was that? I don't consider that

appropriate

> > > and I won't be doing it myself. What I'd like to know is if

that is

> > > considered OK, or if it used to be considered OK but isn't now.

I

> > > don't want to over-react, but Nada has paid for and me

to go

> > > to Sydney and stay with her. (Some people say I'm prone to

> > > over-reacting while my psychiatrist thinks that I don't react

enough

> > > to some things regarding my Nada.) Is this an indication that I

> > > shouldn't leave him alone with her? Is it an indication of

something

> > > much darker?

> > >

> > > AHS

[Guest guest]

> Goddamnnit I don't want to go to Sydney next week but I have to keep

> her happy to keep her financial support while I am still at

> university. I was already dreading going but now I'm on the edge of

panic.

>

> AHS

Someone answered your original post saying " you have a right to

protect yourself and your son. " I disagree with that. In my

opinion, it is your DUTY to protect your son, above keeping her

happy, above any financial support, above your own panic.. HE can't

tell the nasty b*tch to get her hands off of him, that is what his

parents are for. If I ever saw anyone doing that to a new baby, mine

or not, I would say something. Babies are human beings, real people,

just smaller. Would it be OK to let her do this to a 5 year old, a

10 year old, a 12 year old??? A grown up?? No, I don't think so.

If it was my child, I would speak up for him, no matter how scared I

was about losing financial support, or whatever. I believe that that

is a parent's job, to put the needs of the helpless, dependant child

FIRST.

This is obviously something that I feel strongly about. At the

moment I'm also having to sit by and know that my sister is allowing

nada (and on occasion, fada) to babysit her children. I do not

understand how anyone can make it " OK " in their minds to allow

someone who they KNOW is abusive to children (in this case, my nada

AND fada were both very abusive to us, especially when we were

defenseless children) be alone with their kids. It does not make any

sense to me at all. Like when someone is convicted of a sex crime,

they usually have to register and stay away from children as part of

the sentence after they are released from prison. In my opinion,

leaving children in the care of my abusive parent(s) is similar to

asking one of these criminals to watch them. I don't get it!! How

does this make sense?

I know we all have issues with our bp nadas, it is hard to stand up

to them, hard to set boundaries.. But when we have kids, it's not

about US anymore. I'm going to stop now because I am really feeling

angry about this whole subject.

[Guest guest]

> Someone answered your original post saying " you have a right to

> protect yourself and your son. " I disagree with that. In my

> opinion, it is your DUTY to protect your son, above keeping her

> happy, above any financial support, above your own panic.. HE can't

> tell the nasty b*tch to get her hands off of him, that is what his

> parents are for. If I ever saw anyone doing that to a new baby, mine

> or not, I would say something. Babies are human beings, real

<blah, blah, blah>

I'm going to stop now because I am really feeling

> angry about this whole subject.

You shouldn't have even started. Thanks for taking your own anger

about your own story out on me, and for helping me feel unheard. That

always goes down well with KOs.

I have a different story. Unlike most of the Nadas here mine has been

going to therapy on and off since the 1960s. I've never known if what

I am seeing in her is the effect of therapy, Prozac, my father, the

ignorance of her generation, or just because she's having another

turn. She is a right pain in the arse but she is also a human being

who at least had the sense to send herself and me to therapy.

Child molestation is an extremely serious allegation to make, and

right now I have F*ck all evidence for it.

No, I will not put my child in harm's way. I won't even let my dh

smoke in the house.

Just because I said I'm panicking doesn't mean that I won't do what

needs to be done. I just want to be _sure_ of what needs to be done so

that I dont' make a bigger mess of things later. Being a nervous wreck

and over-reacting to every little thing can also be very damaging to a

child's development.

AHS

[Guest guest]

Hope,

I think you're thinking of a forensic pathologist who analyses pieces

from crime scenes and sometimes the bodies of murder victims for

evidence against a suspect. Pathology in general is testing body

parts, blood, urine etc for disease.

It may surprise a lot of people but it has been " conventional wisdom "

up until quite recently that babies are very unaware of what is going

on around them or to them. It was believed so strongly that surgeons

even performed operations on babies without anesthetic well into the

20th century.

Only today friends of mine said that they were told in a university

class that children do not develop memory until 3 years of age. Since

I have a memory from before that (not well formed but definately

there) I can't help but be dubious about this.

The reason I wanted to know if this thing that Nada did has ever been

considered OK is so I know how to approach the subject with her. If

somebody who has been in medicine for a long time, Edith for example,

had said that she was familiar with this then that means that my Nada

was performing a misguided action, rather than letting slip a desire

to sexually molest her grandson.

I'm getting the distinct feeling that people here _want_ to believe

that she would want to harm him that way. And that to me is just as

creepy.

In fact, isn't that emotionally abusive of me?

AHS

> That was sexual abuse. It is inappropriate to jiggle

> somebody else's genitals, no matter how old they are.

>

> I hope you don't ever leave your son alone with your nada.

> And I had another alarm bell going off in my head when you

> said that you thought you might be overreacting. Please

> don't suppress your natural protective instincts in order

> " not to offend " your nada.

>

> (isn't a pathologist somebody who works with dead people?

> If so, what kind of newborns did your nada work with? dead

> ones?)

>

> Hope

>

[Guest guest]

I can't answer your main question about this being standard practice in the

recent past. Depending on how far back you go in history there was

widespread and acceptable sexual exploitation of children. That this was

common should in no way normalize this behavior since we know from clinical

data the extent of the damage this does to children.

Whether this isolated incident that wrote about is likely to cause lasting

damage, I can only wager a guess and say that it wouldn't. I do think it's

completely unnecessary, though, and it shouldn't continue, but I'm not

trying to impugn some sinister motive on the part of your nada, either.

My understanding about the memory issue is that the hippocampus/neocortex

are primarily responsible for laying down explicit, conscious memories

whereas the amygdala primarily lays down unconscious emotional memories.

The hippocampus and neocortex mature later than the amygdala so it's

possible to physiologically have memories before the 2.5-3 yr mark that are

not available to consciousness.

Just my 2 cents.

I posted this talk earlier,

Parallel Memories: Putting Emotions Back Into The Brain

A Talk With ph LeDoux

http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/ledoux/ledoux_p1.html

Here's an excerpt:

" Many people have problems with their emotional memories; psychologists'

offices are filled with people who are basically trying to take care of and

alter emotional memories, get rid of them, hold them in check. If anything,

emotional memory is more basic than explicit conscious memory. For example,

it takes place at an earlier age. It's conceivable, and in fact seems very

likely, that a child could be abused very early in life and develop

unconscious emotional memories through the amygdala prior to the point where

the temporal lobe memory system has kicked in. If that's true then emotional

memories are being formed for things that will never be consciously

understood, because the system that mediates conscious memory isn't

available to encode the experience and can therefore never retrieve it.

We need to understand how unconscious emotional memories are formed-- not

only because they occur in early childhood, but because emotional memories

are created throughout our lives. And it appears that these memories are

indelible. They can be extinguished in the laboratory or treated in the

psychiatrist's office, but they can usually be brought back. And recently

we've been able to find a mechanism in the amygdala that might be

responsible for this. It's sort of complicated, but the finding goes like

this. We record neural activity in the amygdala before and after

conditioning. Cells fire more to the tone afterwards. With extinction the

firing rate goes back to baseline. However, in addition to measuring these

stimulus-evoked responses, we measure the correlation in the time when

different cells fire spontaneously (no stimulus present). After

conditioning, some cells that were not correlated become correlated. And for

some of the cells the correlations remain past extinction. In other words,

the feared stimulus no longer elicits activity in the amygdala, but the

amygdala cells continue to be functionally coupled. It's as if extinction

(and therapy) doesn't erase the memory, it just weakens the ability of the

stimulus to activate the memory. So in order for the stimulus to again be

effective all you have to do is change the synaptic strength of the

connection between the stimulus and the memory rather than recreate the

memory. "

Re: Inappropriate touching question

> Hope,

>

> I think you're thinking of a forensic pathologist who analyses pieces

> from crime scenes and sometimes the bodies of murder victims for

> evidence against a suspect. Pathology in general is testing body

> parts, blood, urine etc for disease.

>

> It may surprise a lot of people but it has been " conventional wisdom "

> up until quite recently that babies are very unaware of what is going

> on around them or to them. It was believed so strongly that surgeons

> even performed operations on babies without anesthetic well into the

> 20th century.

>

> Only today friends of mine said that they were told in a university

> class that children do not develop memory until 3 years of age. Since

> I have a memory from before that (not well formed but definately

> there) I can't help but be dubious about this.

>

> The reason I wanted to know if this thing that Nada did has ever been

> considered OK is so I know how to approach the subject with her. If

> somebody who has been in medicine for a long time, Edith for example,

> had said that she was familiar with this then that means that my Nada

> was performing a misguided action, rather than letting slip a desire

> to sexually molest her grandson.

>

> I'm getting the distinct feeling that people here _want_ to believe

> that she would want to harm him that way. And that to me is just as

> creepy.

>

> In fact, isn't that emotionally abusive of me?

>

> AHS

>

>

>

> > That was sexual abuse. It is inappropriate to jiggle

> > somebody else's genitals, no matter how old they are.

> >

> > I hope you don't ever leave your son alone with your nada.

> > And I had another alarm bell going off in my head when you

> > said that you thought you might be overreacting. Please

> > don't suppress your natural protective instincts in order

> > " not to offend " your nada.

> >

> > (isn't a pathologist somebody who works with dead people?

> > If so, what kind of newborns did your nada work with? dead

> > ones?)

> >

> > Hope

> >

>

>

>

> Send questions and/or concerns to ModOasis-owner

> " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " a primer for non-BPs, can be ordered via

1-888-35-SHELL () and for the table of contents, go to:

> http://www.BPDCentral.com

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

<< I'm getting the distinct feeling that people here _want_ to

believe that she would want to harm him that way. And that to me is

just as creepy. In fact, isn't that emotionally abusive of me? >>

AHS, I don't think it matters whether she wanted to harm him or

whether she didn't know. The only thing that matters is whether

there is a risk that she will do it again. When my ex-wife did that

and I said I thought it was inappropriate and abusive, she pooh-

poohed me. That was a warning that she would probably do it again.

If you tell your mother that you believe it is inappropriate, and she

listens understandingly, maybe you could feel a little safer. Keep

an eye on her anyway, just to be sure.

- Dan

[Guest guest]

>> I'm getting the distinct feeling that people here _want_ to believe

> that she would want to harm him that way. And that to me is just as

> creepy.

>

> In fact, isn't that emotionally abusive of me?

>

> AHS

>

>

AHS,

The people on this list have responded to your post in an honest

fashion. I don't think anyone is TRYING to emotionally abuse you.

That's not what we're about. I don't think anyone WANTS to harm a

child, I think some people, especially BP's, CAN'T HELP IT. You seem

angry, and I don't think it has been anyone's intention to make you

angry. We just want to help you see the situation with your nada in

a realistic light. We all know what nadas are capable of. Mine

killed one of my brothers. I know that seems outrageous, but he

wasn't my father's child, and she couldn't have 'evidence' of

infidelity running around loose because then that would negate her

false mask of purity and perfection. I'm not saying your mom is like

mine, but I think I can safely say most of us on this list would

agree that a BP is capable of deliberate child abuse or worse. We

validate one another because some of the shit we have to deal with is

SO UNBELIEVABLE. I see what people have been posting to you was

meant as validation and advice, not emotional abuse. I'm sorry

you're having to deal with this. My heart and prayers go out to

you. Please try to remember that the most important things for you

to do is keep yourself and Will safe. Unfortuneately, sometimes we

have to go to ridiculous extremes to do that and some people (non-

KOs) can't understand the importance of that and think it's

overreacting, but it isn't, trust me. It's also the hardest thing

we've ever had to do. I am struggling every day to remember that I

have to take care of myself even though I know my mother is hurting.

I feel guilty, but I can't allow the guilt to control my decisions.

My decisions are controlled by my commitment to taking care of

myself. It hurts like hell, but my mom doesn't give me any other

choice, and believe me, I've tried everything else. I love my mom

very much. But I love me, too.

Love and Blessings,

Tammy

[Guest guest]

Brilliant post Free. Bravo!! I feel the same.

Lin.

[Guest guest]

This has bothered me a bit. I don't so much think that people are

wanting to believe that AHS's nada wants to harm her baby sexually.

Nor do I think believing that would be emotionally abusive to AHS.

But I do think some of the responses to her post were unnecessarily

harsh.

AHS is a new, young, mother. She stated her discomfort with the

situation, yet sought advice to prevent her from over-reacting

unnecessarily. And she also expressed her conflicting feelings, and

dilema in the " OMG!! What am I going to do? Gotta keep nada

happy.... " stuff.

She did NOT say she was willing to let her nada sexually abuse her

child in order to mantain her financial support. She DID express

concern that she was supposed to take a trip to Sydney to be with her

nada - and she was having second thoughts about going on THAT trip.

Several posts appeared to me to pretty much " rake her over the coals "

by focusing on her statement about feeling the need to keep her nada

happy. She did not say she was willing to do so at the expense of her

child. She expressed her dilema - yet her primary focus seemed to be

on protecting her child - until she perceived she was being attacked -

and then she switched to defending herself a bit.

If anyone could respect the feeling of being pulled by nada, and the

mixed feelings, especially when she wasn't clear if what her nada did

was appropriate or not (and remember she is a NEW YOUNG mother) - she

expected US to. Most of us know how hard it is to get understanding

from people who have not walked a mile in our shoes... or crawled for

years on our knees.

Sometimes it is easy to sit on the sidelines and know exactly what

others should do. Yet, from AHS's original post - I think she is

honestly seeking to do the " right " thing. " Yet, as we ALL should

know - sometimes there is inner turmoil to work through in getting to

that place. She expressed her inner turmoil about going to Sydney. I

don't think that should be held against her.

We are not talking about a case where her nada brazenly molested her

child. We are talking about her nada giving his genitals a quick

jiggle and explaining to AHS that it was re-assuring and comforting.

Do I think that behavior is appropriate? No.

Do I think it might be a warning sign for AHS to be more careful? Yes.

However, I DO think nada's motivation come into play here as valid.

IF nada is behaving sexually innappropriate with the baby - then by

all means keep her away from him - and especially don't let her be

alone with him.

Yet if nada MISTAKENLY believed this was appropriate behavior (which

she may well have since she did it in full view of AHS and seemed to

enjoy acting like an expert teaching her) then there may be ways for

AHS to approach the subject with nada and request that she not do

that.

In discussing the motivational stance of the issue - the comparison

was made of feeding a child vomit. There ARE times when touching an

infant's genitals is appropriate, and not harmful (see below)... so

the motivation and how the action was carried out out WOULD need to

be considered. However - I can not think of a time where feeding a

child vomit would be either appropriate or non-harming... so there is

no motivation to condone

Do I think AHS's baby was harmed by this one time action? Probably

not.

Otherwise - wouldn't babies that have had diaper rash cream spread on

their genitals be harmed? Wouldn't babies who have had their genitals

washed be harmed. If merely having their genitals touched caused

harm - all children would suffer.

There are ways to touch someone's genitals without it being sexual.

Task related touching as a case in point. There are also ways to

touch someone sexaully without touching their genitals.

So I think AHS's question was - was this sexual or was it not. My

answer is - it is hard to say. It's a red flag. It is not appropriate

in our culture and society. Our culture accepts patting bottoms...

which can be nuturing.. but COULD be sexual, but unnecessary genital

touching is certainly taboo. I would certainly keep my eyes open...

and not let it continue - which is what AHS seemed to plan to do -

but she ALSO expressed concern about even SEEING her nada... and the

panic she felt to even SEE her at this point - and the dilema she

felt because she had to TAKE a TRIP with her nada. In my opinion -

she did NOT recieve validiation and support in her feeling about

that - as people seemed to react as though she was saying she felt

the need to let nada have her way with her baby to keep her happy.

Sexual abuse brings up intense feelings in people... sometimes to the

point where it clouds our judgement. Some of us (myself included)

were molested as children. Others were sexually harmed in another

fashion - not by being molested - but by being giving the message

that our bodies and sexual feelings were bad, nasty, shameful, etc.

Either extreme is damaging to a child. Yet only the first is

considered sexual abuse.

Many of us were abused in other ways - physically, mentally,

emotionally, spiritually....yet sexual abuse triggers the most

emotion. ANYTHING that stifles the child's spirit and crushes their

soul is dreadfully abusive.

MANY of us ALLOWED our nada's to stifle our children's spirits...

play mind games with our children... say mean things to them.... etc.

etc. etc... because we didn't know any better and we didn't know how

to stop it. NONE of us handed our children over to nada - and

said " Here - harm him too! " Yet - in our own ways - we allowed our

children to be harmed.

Instead of helping AHS (a NEW mother) with her struggle to get some

kind of clarity on how to both protect her child and mantain some

type positive relationship with her nada - and exploring whether she

could even do both - we practically implied she was a " bad mother "

for even considering her relationship with nada. Again, I do not

think AHS was putting her relationship with nada AHEAD of protecting

her son. She was trying to sort a lot of things out. And in doing so -

she reached out for help - and some of us, collectively, smacked her

hands.

Free

http://www.classbrain.com/artread/publish/article_34.shtml

Characteristics of sexual development:

Babies are curious. They explore their world and their own bodies.

All babies touch their genitals. It feels good and is comforting to

them.

Babies develop trust and the capacity for pleasure as they are cared

for, held and cuddled.

Babies need to like all parts of their body, including genitals.

Many parents wonder how they should respond to their young child's

genital play. Although genital play and masturbation are normal and

universal in young children, parents' responses may vary. You may:

Choose to ignore the behavior. When your child is older you can

explain about modesty and private behavior.

Smile as your baby discovers his or her genitals. You may say, " I

know that feels good, " conveying respect for your child's feelings.

-- In ModOasis , " legoarwen2003 " <tschule1@t...> wrote:

>

> >> I'm getting the distinct feeling that people here _want_ to

believe

> > that she would want to harm him that way. And that to me is just

as

> > creepy.

> >

> > In fact, isn't that emotionally abusive of me?

> >

> > AHS

> >

> >

>

> AHS,

>

> The people on this list have responded to your post in an honest

> fashion. I don't think anyone is TRYING to emotionally abuse you.

> That's not what we're about. I don't think anyone WANTS to harm a

> child, I think some people, especially BP's, CAN'T HELP IT. You

seem

> angry, and I don't think it has been anyone's intention to make you

> angry. We just want to help you see the situation with your nada

in

> a realistic light. We all know what nadas are capable of. Mine

> killed one of my brothers. I know that seems outrageous, but he

> wasn't my father's child, and she couldn't have 'evidence' of

> infidelity running around loose because then that would negate her

> false mask of purity and perfection. I'm not saying your mom is

like

> mine, but I think I can safely say most of us on this list would

> agree that a BP is capable of deliberate child abuse or worse. We

> validate one another because some of the shit we have to deal with

is

> SO UNBELIEVABLE. I see what people have been posting to you was

> meant as validation and advice, not emotional abuse. I'm sorry

> you're having to deal with this. My heart and prayers go out to

> you. Please try to remember that the most important things for you

> to do is keep yourself and Will safe. Unfortuneately, sometimes we

> have to go to ridiculous extremes to do that and some people (non-

> KOs) can't understand the importance of that and think it's

> overreacting, but it isn't, trust me. It's also the hardest thing

> we've ever had to do. I am struggling every day to remember that I

> have to take care of myself even though I know my mother is

hurting.

> I feel guilty, but I can't allow the guilt to control my

decisions.

> My decisions are controlled by my commitment to taking care of

> myself. It hurts like hell, but my mom doesn't give me any other

> choice, and believe me, I've tried everything else. I love my mom

> very much. But I love me, too.

>

> Love and Blessings,

>

> Tammy