Re: Hope and Scout - Therapists-Scout

January 4, 2004

-Could I ask - is this a therapist you chose for yourself - or is she

someone arranged by the agency handling the foster care?

Free

-- In ModOasis , " scoutbonon " <scoutbonon@a...> wrote:

>

> > If you are dealing with a therapist that either has no experience

> > with or doesn't believe in BP, then you are basically screwed.

>

> And I am wondering if this is the problem. I talk quite a bit

about

> my mom's BP and how I understand her way of thinking, her

perceptions

> of things, etc, and I don't get a whole lot of feedback from the

> counselor at all let alone when I talk about BP. I don't know

> whether she 'believes' in it or knows anything about it. She has a

> whole bookshelf devoted to ADHD (which I noticed after she

suggested

> that I have it). I scanned her other shelves and nothing on BP,

not

> even " lost in the mirror " which I've seen on other counselors'

> shelves in the past. (Not that it matters a lot, but I paid more

> attention the last couple of times).

>

> My point is that, I think a lot of counselors might not understand

> how " different " it is for KOs than for other people who grew up in

> dysfunctional families. I'm sure mental illness is rooted in a lot

> of dysfunctional families and, not to sound like I feel extra sorry

> for myself, but I honestly think the BP has a way of having a

direct,

> negative, mind-warping effect on EVERYONE not just the Borderline

> person, and that it's not as simple as dealing with a bad

childhood.

> Maybe WE need our own real diagnosis. Seems to me there are enough

> similarities in the effect BP has on KOs and even partners! Not

> quite PTSD, but SOMETHING...

>

> I'm thinking of looking into switching to another counselor. It

> might take a couple of months to get all of the funding stuff

sorted

> out, but I can do it subtley. Otherwise I'd have to just stick

with

> her because I wouldn't have the guts to tell her why. That's one

of

> my many problems

>

> Thanks!

January 4, 2004

> -Could I ask - is this a therapist you chose for yourself - or is

she

> someone arranged by the agency handling the foster care?

>

> Free

I found her myself. She works at an agency where people can get

counseling for free when they do not have resources to pay for it or

insurance. She is a social worker and used to license foster

parents, but that was just a coincidence. Maybe in her experience

she knows it's not recommending to force someone into therapy. But I

have never held back about anything or been resistant, so I figured

that was enough to show that while the reason I began therapy was not

entirely voluntary, I am committed to it.

I think that she is also misstaking my inability to differentiate a

real problem versus something I might be overreacting to as a sign

that maybe I am not committed to getting help (she asks if something

I " ve talked about 'is something you want to work on', and when she

asks me that, I think, well, maybe since she asked she thinks it's

not a problem so I say 'I don't know' in response). I didn't realize

we had to go into counseling knowing all of our problems and knowing

what exactly needs to be done. I kind of thought that's what THEY

are there for. But maybe I'm wrong.

Thanks!

January 4, 2004

> >

> > > If you are dealing with a therapist that either has no

experience

> > > with or doesn't believe in BP, then you are basically screwed.

> >

> > And I am wondering if this is the problem. I talk quite a bit

> about

> > my mom's BP and how I understand her way of thinking, her

> perceptions

> > of things, etc, and I don't get a whole lot of feedback from the

> > counselor at all let alone when I talk about BP. I don't know

> > whether she 'believes' in it or knows anything about it. She has

a

> > whole bookshelf devoted to ADHD (which I noticed after she

> suggested

> > that I have it). I scanned her other shelves and nothing on BP,

> not

> > even " lost in the mirror " which I've seen on other counselors'

> > shelves in the past. (Not that it matters a lot, but I paid more

> > attention the last couple of times).

> >

> > My point is that, I think a lot of counselors might not

understand

> > how " different " it is for KOs than for other people who grew up

in

> > dysfunctional families. I'm sure mental illness is rooted in a

lot

> > of dysfunctional families and, not to sound like I feel extra

sorry

> > for myself, but I honestly think the BP has a way of having a

> direct,

> > negative, mind-warping effect on EVERYONE not just the Borderline

> > person, and that it's not as simple as dealing with a bad

> childhood.

> > Maybe WE need our own real diagnosis. Seems to me there are

enough

> > similarities in the effect BP has on KOs and even partners! Not

> > quite PTSD, but SOMETHING...

> >

> > I'm thinking of looking into switching to another counselor. It

> > might take a couple of months to get all of the funding stuff

> sorted

> > out, but I can do it subtley. Otherwise I'd have to just stick

> with

> > her because I wouldn't have the guts to tell her why. That's one

> of

> > my many problems

> >

> > Thanks!

January 4, 2004

Scout -

My belief about therapy is that a good therapist is more like a

guide - leading us to find what is true and good for us. I don't

think they can really fix us - but they are more like the holder of

the light - while we explore and make discoveries.

I can see a therapist asking " is that something you want to work on? "

as a valid question. There are many things I do want to work on.

There are many things I am not ready to work on yet. And there are

other things that I may want to express - but not actually work on.

So for me - if a therapist asked me that - I would respect that she

was honoring my right to decide what I did and did not want to work

on.

I don't believe we need to go into therapy, as you say, knowing all

our problems and exactly what needs to be done. But it is OUR

therapy. I think to go in an expect someone else to know what our

problems are and know how to " fix " them is unrealistic and not real

healthy. I would run real fast from a therapist who tried to do that

to me.

From reading your response - I am not sure if I got it correct - but

what I AM getting - is that the therapist you are seeing is one you

were " required " to see - because of the foster care, or something

else. I know you state you are committed to therapy and have shown

such. Yet the reason I asked the question in the first place was to

ask about the nature of the " therapuetic " relationship. I would

consider a relationship with a counselor who I was required to see by

a third party (and who possibly consults with and reports to that

third party) - different than a relationship with a counselor who I

decided to see to " work on my stuff. " The purposes are very different.

By the way, how is your sister doing?

Free

> > -Could I ask - is this a therapist you chose for yourself - or is

> she

> > someone arranged by the agency handling the foster care?

> >

> > Free

>

> I found her myself. She works at an agency where people can get

> counseling for free when they do not have resources to pay for it

or

> insurance. She is a social worker and used to license foster

> parents, but that was just a coincidence. Maybe in her experience

> she knows it's not recommending to force someone into therapy. But

I

> have never held back about anything or been resistant, so I figured

> that was enough to show that while the reason I began therapy was

not

> entirely voluntary, I am committed to it.

>

> I think that she is also misstaking my inability to differentiate a

> real problem versus something I might be overreacting to as a sign

> that maybe I am not committed to getting help (she asks if

something

> I " ve talked about 'is something you want to work on', and when she

> asks me that, I think, well, maybe since she asked she thinks it's

> not a problem so I say 'I don't know' in response). I didn't

realize

> we had to go into counseling knowing all of our problems and

knowing

> what exactly needs to be done. I kind of thought that's what THEY

> are there for. But maybe I'm wrong.

>

> Thanks!

January 4, 2004

> I can see a therapist asking " is that something you want to work

on? "

> as a valid question. There are many things I do want to work on.

> There are many things I am not ready to work on yet. And there are

> other things that I may want to express - but not actually work on.

I'm not saying it's not a valid question, it's just one that I'm not

sure how to answer. I figure if I've sat there for a half hour

talking about an issue, and at the end of that half hour if she asks

me if it's something I want to work on, then maybe it's not as big a

deal as I thought it was (given my tendency to overreact to and

analyze everything). If I had to make a list of everything I think

is a problem, I don't think there'd be enough hours in a day to work

on it, let alone 1 hour a week. So I guess I just have no clue.

> From reading your response - I am not sure if I got it correct -

but

> what I AM getting - is that the therapist you are seeing is one you

> were " required " to see - because of the foster care, or something

> else. I know you state you are committed to therapy and have shown

> such. Yet the reason I asked the question in the first place was to

> ask about the nature of the " therapuetic " relationship. I would

> consider a relationship with a counselor who I was required to see

by

> a third party (and who possibly consults with and reports to that

> third party) - different than a relationship with a counselor who I

> decided to see to " work on my stuff. " The purposes are very

different.

Not necessarily in this situation. I am not required to see this

particular counselor. Any counselor would do. I was urged to see a

counselor because apparently people who have spoken to me for a few

hours in my life feel they know better than I do why I make certain

decisions and what is 'wrong' with me. Part of keeping my foster

care license included getting counseling. I do not HAVE to go to

counseling; I would have my sister with me even without the license

(though not in foster care). So it was my decision, albeit a

somewhat pushed one. I have been in counseling a few times before

and was put off by the experiences, and so that's the only reason I

had not gone back (as opposed to being in denial about needing

help). I got tired of going on and on and feeling there was

something terribly wrong with me but then having the counselor tell

me I'd done everything right and they sure could understand why I did

that. I didn't see the point. I was never resistant to it, I just

didn't think it would be very helpful. And, I was right.

Before, the counselors just said I was doing everything right. NOw,

the counselor feels " icky " seeing me because of the reason I started

to go. I get the feeling she thinks I should/am just be going

through the motions to satisfy DHS. But the fact is I would really

like some help and I've said so. And as far as her reporting to a

third party, I was never concerned about that, ever. I have NEVER

hidden anything from anyone involved in this situation. They'd like

to think it, but that's not the case. This counselor made a point to

tell me that all she would do is verify that I've been going. But

this is not an issue I ever had a problem with. And I guess maybe it

should be about me, at least when it comes to MY counseling, and not

DHS or this counselor or anyone else. If I was concerned what she'd

say, I would ask her. But I have nothing to hide. I don't care

about what she tells anyone and I told her as much. SHe's making a

problem out of one that wasn't there, which is so like my mother and

it's putting me in a really annoying situation. If I had a problem

with it, I'd have said so. It's as easy and simple as that.

So I don't know what else I should do except just give up on it

altogether, go through the motions like she thinks I should to humor

DHS, and go on as I have been. It's a drag thinking about it all the

time anyway.

January 4, 2004

Scout,

I'm not real clear on this part - " SHe's making a

> problem out of one that wasn't there, which is so like my mother

and it's putting me in a really annoying situation. If I had a

problem with it, I'd have said so. It's as easy and simple as

that. "

Are you saying that your counselor is making a problem out of seeing

you for the foster care license? That she just wants to " go through

the motions " and doesn't really want to help you? I'm not clear on

what problem you say she is making.

It does seem like there is not a lot of openess between you and the

counselor because you don't seem to feel free to ask her what she

thinks or why she thinks it - but are left to make your own

assumptions and react accordingly.

And I'm not clear if you are saying that YOU would have said so - if

YOU had a problem - or if you are implying that SHE should have said

so if SHE had a problem.

I am not trying to be difficult here - but I am trying to understand.

Because you have pretty much said that you really do have a problem

telling her your problem with her - that it is hard for you to speak

up about it. So I am not clear whether your final statement is

telling ME that you would have told her if you had a problem, or if

it is implying what she should have done.

By all means I do not think you should lie or hide things from DHS. I

hope I didn't come across that way. Yet several days ago you were

panicked that they were going to remove you from your sister's life.

Though they are no longer saying they will do that - I still assumed

that meant DHS is pretty much in control of what happens with your

sister. Especially in light of the fact you are saying that people

who you have talked to a few hours in your life have decided

something is " wrong " with you, I would just tread very carefully with

that.

If I were in counseling in that situation, I wouldn't lie - but I

wouldn't voluntarily dig deeper than I had to with someone I didn't

trust. From the nature of your posts - it does not sound like you

trust either the counselor or DHS. So I guess what I would do in that

situation is " go through the motions " and do what I had to do to

please the powers that be. Yet that is me - not you. The deciding

factor for me would be if my sister was at stake - I would not put

her at risk opening up more than necessary with people I did not

trust. In my mind that would be setting healthy boundaries.

Yet that still leaves the dilema of finding some real help and

support for you - from someone you can trust.

Free

>

> > I can see a therapist asking " is that something you want to work

> on? "

> > as a valid question. There are many things I do want to work on.

> > There are many things I am not ready to work on yet. And there

are

> > other things that I may want to express - but not actually work

on.

>

> I'm not saying it's not a valid question, it's just one that I'm

not

> sure how to answer. I figure if I've sat there for a half hour

> talking about an issue, and at the end of that half hour if she

asks

> me if it's something I want to work on, then maybe it's not as big

a

> deal as I thought it was (given my tendency to overreact to and

> analyze everything). If I had to make a list of everything I think

> is a problem, I don't think there'd be enough hours in a day to

work

> on it, let alone 1 hour a week. So I guess I just have no clue.

>

> > From reading your response - I am not sure if I got it correct -

> but

> > what I AM getting - is that the therapist you are seeing is one

you

> > were " required " to see - because of the foster care, or something

> > else. I know you state you are committed to therapy and have

shown

> > such. Yet the reason I asked the question in the first place was

to

> > ask about the nature of the " therapuetic " relationship. I would

> > consider a relationship with a counselor who I was required to

see

> by

> > a third party (and who possibly consults with and reports to that

> > third party) - different than a relationship with a counselor who

I

> > decided to see to " work on my stuff. " The purposes are very

> different.

>

> Not necessarily in this situation. I am not required to see this

> particular counselor. Any counselor would do. I was urged to see

a

> counselor because apparently people who have spoken to me for a few

> hours in my life feel they know better than I do why I make certain

> decisions and what is 'wrong' with me. Part of keeping my foster

> care license included getting counseling. I do not HAVE to go to

> counseling; I would have my sister with me even without the

license

> (though not in foster care). So it was my decision, albeit a

> somewhat pushed one. I have been in counseling a few times before

> and was put off by the experiences, and so that's the only reason I

> had not gone back (as opposed to being in denial about needing

> help). I got tired of going on and on and feeling there was

> something terribly wrong with me but then having the counselor tell

> me I'd done everything right and they sure could understand why I

did

> that. I didn't see the point. I was never resistant to it, I just

> didn't think it would be very helpful. And, I was right.

>

> Before, the counselors just said I was doing everything right.

NOw,

> the counselor feels " icky " seeing me because of the reason I

started

> to go. I get the feeling she thinks I should/am just be going

> through the motions to satisfy DHS. But the fact is I would really

> like some help and I've said so. And as far as her reporting to a

> third party, I was never concerned about that, ever. I have NEVER

> hidden anything from anyone involved in this situation. They'd

like

> to think it, but that's not the case. This counselor made a point

to

> tell me that all she would do is verify that I've been going. But

> this is not an issue I ever had a problem with. And I guess maybe

it

> should be about me, at least when it comes to MY counseling, and

not

> DHS or this counselor or anyone else. If I was concerned what

she'd

> say, I would ask her. But I have nothing to hide. I don't care

> about what she tells anyone and I told her as much. SHe's making a

> problem out of one that wasn't there, which is so like my mother

and

> it's putting me in a really annoying situation. If I had a problem

> with it, I'd have said so. It's as easy and simple as that.

>

> So I don't know what else I should do except just give up on it

> altogether, go through the motions like she thinks I should to

humor

> DHS, and go on as I have been. It's a drag thinking about it all

the

> time anyway.

January 4, 2004

>

> Are you saying that your counselor is making a problem out of

seeing

> you for the foster care license? That she just wants to " go through

> the motions " and doesn't really want to help you?

She is still going to see me, but she isn't comfortable with it. She

thinks I am going through the motions, so I don't think she's willing

to help or (for lack of a better word) invest her time as much as she

would otherwise. It was not a problem for me (the reason I was

there), and I never held back due to the reason I was there.

Therefore, I feel that the problem is being created out of her

discomfort (as opposed to mine).

> It does seem like there is not a lot of openess between you and the

> counselor because you don't seem to feel free to ask her what she

> thinks or why she thinks it - but are left to make your own

> assumptions and react accordingly.

I'm not sure this is the case. I thought things were going well

until she reacted to ONE session where I was quieter than usual. She

made an assumption about it and reacted accordingly; I told her

during the last appointment that I have never been resistant to

therapy (a point to which she agreed) and that I had no problem with

being there. I have not seen her for 2 weeks due to the holidays so

while I have been thinking about and pondering the situation quite a

bit, I have not had a chance even to elaborate on it with her. I

don't know why it has to be so complicated. If I was resistant to

the therapy that's one thing, but she's making an issue out of

something that doesn't need to be.

> And I'm not clear if you are saying that YOU would have said so -

>if

> YOU had a problem -

I would have told her if I didn't want to be there and if I was only

there to humor DHS. That's what I meant.

> Because you have pretty much said that you really do have a problem

> telling her your problem with her - that it is hard for you to

speak

> up about it.

I do have a problem telling her I have a problem with her, yes. I

guess I didn't realize that a relationship with a counselor could be

so complicated. I don't need anymore complicated relationships. I

have little tolerance for it. There are many other areas where I

could focus on, and I don't see the purpose in this particular one.

It just isn't necessary.

>Yet several days ago you were

> panicked that they were going to remove you from your sister's

life.

> Though they are no longer saying they will do that - I still

assumed

> that meant DHS is pretty much in control of what happens with your

> sister.

They are actually two separate issues. It would take too long to

explain, but if I stop going to counseling that will have no effect

on my sister's placement. The people who are concerned about my

counseling are the foster care licensing people. The people my

counselor would report to are the foster care licensing people. They

have nothing to do with the DHS workers who are involved in my

sister's case planning. I was concerned that my sister would be

reunified with my mom, which is something that could have happened

even if everyone agreed that I was June Cleaver. DHS has nowhere to

put my sister where her needs could be met and they know that; if

she's not going back to my mom she's going to be with me, unless I

rob a bank or something ridiculous like that. I went to counseling

because I thought it would be good for me, not because I am overly

concerned with the license or because it was necessary in order to

keep my sister with me.

> From the nature of your posts - it does not sound like you

> trust either the counselor or DHS.

It's not about trust. I show people quite a bit of trust, because I

figure if there is something about me that is alarming that I don't

recognize, then I would rather it be out there than be hiding it and

pretending I can care for my sister appropriately if I can't. I want

what is best for my sister.

If my counselor thinks this is an issue that is going to impair and

hinder my therapy, and I tell her it's not a problem, and she still

doesn't believe that, then what else is there left for me to do

except just give in to her? It's not a matter of trust at all, at

least not for me, even if it could or should be. When she has

brought up the situation, I have as best as I can told her that it's

not a problem for me to be there (in counseling) and I don't

understand why that can't be enough. It is exhasperating to be

completely open with someone and to be honest with them and have them

STILL doubt that. Maybe I have every reason not to trust her and to

hold back, but I haven't done that. And I don't know how to convince

her otherwise.

January 4, 2004

Ahhhh.. it's getting more clear

Scout>>>>>>>> She is still going to see me, but she isn't comfortable

with it. She thinks I am going through the motions, so I don't

think she's willing to help or (for lack of a better word) invest her

time as much as she would otherwise. It was not a problem for me

(the reason I was there), and I never held back due to the reason I

was there. Therefore, I feel that the problem is being created out

of her discomfort (as opposed to mine).

Free - This IS a strange dynamic going on - that YOU say you WANT

help and she does little to help you and SHE thinks YOU are going

through the motions though you are asking for help.

Scout>>>>I'm not sure this is the case. I thought things were going

well