Re: more attachment

[Guest guest]

Dear Heidi:

This is a good piece of work. It takes courage to look into these

possible attachments. What came up for me in reading your post was

this:

As always, this has nothing to do with P, only Heidi.

What would be interesting to look into is " What do you think you need

P to give you that is so important to your happiness?

If you believe that you need someone else, then you must believe that

they can give something to you that you think you need and that they

are the only one that can give it to you.

Gail and I's experience has been that the clearer and the less needy

we get, the more we realize that we do not need one another, but we

also realize that we love each other even more. We do not confuse

needs and love as much as we used to.

I hope this is helpful for you, it is for me.

Blessings, Steve D.

> Fear: If i realize that i don't really need him, then i won't want

> to be with him.

>

> Yes, herein lies my attachment. There is resistance to dropping

this

> story of needing P b/c i'm afraid it'll mean no more rel'p. My eyes

> have been being opened to how much of my " love " is actually a

mutual

> kind of emotional needing. Is there real love there, the kind that

> doesn't cling, isn't needy, isn't possessive, etc? I'm afraid to

> look in case the needy kind of love is all that holds us together.

> Is my fear just covering up any real love that there might be? Even

> as i write this inquiry i know i'm trying to let go and hold on at

> once. I have enough awareness to know that i don't really need

> anyone for my happiness, and yet i'm afraid to undo this one in

case

> it means the end. There is no movement in me at this time to leave

> but i'm afraid to look nonetheless. Let me start...

>

> " If i don't need him, i will leave him. "

>

> 1. I don't know.

>

> 2. No, i can't absolutely know what will happen. Holding onto the

> concept of " needing him " no longer works though... i've seen the

> snake as the stick it is.

>

> 3. When i believe this i become afraid. It makes me want to cling

> and need again.

>

> I feel a tightening in my neck and in the back of my head.

>

> I think of God as a mean man that will take away what i love. " No

> more love for you young lady until you are happy with nothing and

no

> one! "

>

> I feel paralyzed, afraid of looking into my heart, afraid of

> potential loss.

>

> 4. Happy in my new-found realization that i don't need him!

Relaxing

> into how much i am enjoying myself when i am alone and he's not

> there. Not thinking that not missing him or pining for him are bad

> signs... seeing them as positive in that i am enjoying a new-found

> relationship with me! Enjoying the moment and not worrying about

> what i will feel like when he returns from his trip.

>

> TA

> If i need him i will leave him. -- could be true... in the past my

> extreme neediness, dependency and fear led me to break off our

> engagement.

>

> If i need him, he will leave me. -- could be just as true and not

my

> business if he decides to leave or not.

>

> If i don't need him, i will not leave him. -- i don't know but

could

> be just as true. I might discover a whole new P when i don't see

him

> through my needy lenses.

>

> If i need him, i will leave me. -- yes, that one has proved true

> time and again.

>

>

> Related thought:

>

> Relationship with self and relationship with other are mutually

> exclusive.

[Guest guest]

Hi Heidi--thanks so much for offering this. It's very helpful to me

today.

> Fear: If i realize that i don't really need him, then i won't want

> to be with him.

>

> I think of God as a mean man that will take away what i love. " No

> more love for you young lady until you are happy with nothing and

no

> one! "

This one is very interesting to me. I get a punitive feeling when I

think about totally letting go of my " need " for X. In my story, I

feel that if I let go of the need, there will be nothing but

emptiness, and that it's God's desire that I be satisfied with

emptiness or loneliness.

A couple of days ago, Jan responded to my inquiry with the

statement, " Yes, I am in God's business thinking that God would

actually short change me this way. Impossible! "

It really brought me up short. All of my life I have proclaimed that

I refuse to believe in a punishing, unloving God.....and that's

exactly what I am reflecting here. Apparently, my " God " is the eat-

your-green-beans type, who will make me sit at the table by myself

until I have learned what's good for me (old childhood story here).

I equate God's love with unpleasant discipline.

UB: God will make me suffer before allowing me to be happy.

1. Is it true? I don't know, I don't know, I don't know...

a. What is the reality of it? How can I know this? I don't

know anything. I just feel it deeply. Haven't I felt all my life

that as soon as I am " good enough " I will be happy? I remember when

I was 10 and asked Mom if we should give all of our Christmas

presents to the poor and not have any for ourselves, because it

seemed like the " right thing to do. " I have always felt that I had

to work hard and sacrifice in order to earn happiness.

b. God is not supposed to allow unearned happiness--is it true?

I bet the answer is supposed to be No, but I can't see it. God only

grants all that happiness to people who " give themselves to Him " ,

right? And I didn't do that, did I? I just couldn't make myself do

it. I didn't believe it. And now I'm gonna get punished, I betcha.

c. Whose business is God's thinking? God's? Ya think??

d. Should God have to change for your sake? Well, of course

not. I'm the one who is supposed to do all the changing, remember?

2. Can you absolutely know it is true? No. But….

3. How do you react when you think that thought? I feel like a

small, uncooperative child. I feel like someone else is making all

the rules, and I have no vote in the matter, and this is just the way

it's going to be. I have to take my medicine if I want something

nice later. Love is conditional.

a. Can you see one good reason that is not masochistic or

internal war making for keeping this belief? No.

4. Who would you be without the thought? Omigod, I would feel as

if someone just unlocked the cage and let me out into the sunshine.

5. Turn the thought around…

a. I will make myself suffer before granting myself happiness.

(Probably very true)

b. God will grant me happiness before making me suffer (Maybe?)

c. My thinking about God is making me suffer rather than

allowing me happiness (Absolutely)

> Relationship with self and relationship with other are mutually

> exclusive.

I'm there on this one, too, but I have to go think about the God

thang for awhile, because it is really boggling my mind.

Love,

Marla

[Guest guest]

Hi, Steve. You wrote to Heidi:

> This is a good piece of work. It takes courage to look into these

> possible attachments. What came up for me in reading your post was

> this:

>

> As always, this has nothing to do with P, only Heidi.

> ...

A few paragraphs later, you said:

> Gail and I's experience has been that the clearer and the less needy

> we get, the more we realize that we do not need one another, but we

> also realize that we love each other even more. We do not confuse

> needs and love as much as we used to.

> ...

I'm perplexed. You tell Heidi that her experience is only about her,

not about P, then recount your own as if it is also Gail's. It may be,

I don't know. And my latching onto this probably says more about me

than it does about Steve. (ok, scratch the 'probably'

Is there something here to look at, or am I making it up? Or maybe

there's something here for me to look at? I assume others share my

experience? I assume I know what others experience? (yes, I can find

that)

Do you see something worth purusing here, Steve?

love,

Tom

[Guest guest]

Hi, Heidi. The turnarounds that came to mind for me after reading your

work were:

- If I don't need him, I will love me.

- If I don't need him, I will love him.

love,

Tom

> Fear: If i realize that i don't really need him, then i won't want

> to be with him.

>

> Yes, herein lies my attachment. There is resistance to dropping this

> story of needing P b/c i'm afraid it'll mean no more rel'p. My eyes

> have been being opened to how much of my " love " is actually a mutual

> kind of emotional needing. Is there real love there, the kind that

> doesn't cling, isn't needy, isn't possessive, etc? I'm afraid to

> look in case the needy kind of love is all that holds us together.

> Is my fear just covering up any real love that there might be? Even

> as i write this inquiry i know i'm trying to let go and hold on at

> once. I have enough awareness to know that i don't really need

> anyone for my happiness, and yet i'm afraid to undo this one in case

> it means the end. There is no movement in me at this time to leave

> but i'm afraid to look nonetheless. Let me start...

>

> " If i don't need him, i will leave him. "

>

> 1. I don't know.

>

> 2. No, i can't absolutely know what will happen. Holding onto the

> concept of " needing him " no longer works though... i've seen the

> snake as the stick it is.

>

> 3. When i believe this i become afraid. It makes me want to cling

> and need again.

>

> I feel a tightening in my neck and in the back of my head.

>

> I think of God as a mean man that will take away what i love. " No

> more love for you young lady until you are happy with nothing and no

> one! "

>

> I feel paralyzed, afraid of looking into my heart, afraid of

> potential loss.

>

> 4. Happy in my new-found realization that i don't need him! Relaxing

> into how much i am enjoying myself when i am alone and he's not

> there. Not thinking that not missing him or pining for him are bad

> signs... seeing them as positive in that i am enjoying a new-found

> relationship with me! Enjoying the moment and not worrying about

> what i will feel like when he returns from his trip.

>

> TA

> If i need him i will leave him. -- could be true... in the past my

> extreme neediness, dependency and fear led me to break off our

> engagement.

>

> If i need him, he will leave me. -- could be just as true and not my

> business if he decides to leave or not.

>

> If i don't need him, i will not leave him. -- i don't know but could

> be just as true. I might discover a whole new P when i don't see him

> through my needy lenses.

>

> If i need him, i will leave me. -- yes, that one has proved true

> time and again.

>

>

> Related thought:

>

> Relationship with self and relationship with other are mutually

> exclusive.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> ...

> Related thought:

>

> Relationship with self and relationship with other are mutually

> exclusive.

Hi, Heidi. I kinda blew by this the first time I read your message.

What's seeming more true to me right now is...

Relationship with other is impossible without relationship with self.

or

Relationship with other just reflects relationship with self.

or something like that. So often in the past I have tried to make my

relationship with myself better by working on my relationships with

others. That is, I've tried to feel better about myself by treating

others more nicely, trying to let them have their way, putting myself

down and them up, trying to manipulate LAA out of them, etc., etc.

What seems to be getting clearer to me through the Work is that my

approach has been backward. Now it seems that I can only improve my

relationship with others by working on my relationship with myself.

When I love myself and know that I have everything I need already, I'm

much more able to be interested in the well-being of another rather

than wanting something from them.

Thank you for putting your related thought out there so I could turn

it around for myself.

love,

Tom

[Guest guest]

Dear Tom:

I don't knwo what you are seeing here? I am confused? Like I said,

our thoughts are always about us, never the other person, so Heidi

needed to clean Heidi's lense.

I do my work and Gail does her work and we each get more clear and

then we see how wonderful we really are. That is all I can think of

right now.

Beats me Tom, I am sort of foggy on what you see here.

Love, Steve D.

> Hi, Steve. You wrote to Heidi:

> > This is a good piece of work. It takes courage to look into

these

> > possible attachments. What came up for me in reading your post

was

> > this:

> >

> > As always, this has nothing to do with P, only Heidi.

> > ...

>

> A few paragraphs later, you said:

> > Gail and I's experience has been that the clearer and the less

needy

> > we get, the more we realize that we do not need one another, but

we

> > also realize that we love each other even more. We do not

confuse

> > needs and love as much as we used to.

> > ...

>

> I'm perplexed. You tell Heidi that her experience is only about her,

> not about P, then recount your own as if it is also Gail's. It may

be,

> I don't know. And my latching onto this probably says more about me

> than it does about Steve. (ok, scratch the 'probably'

>

> Is there something here to look at, or am I making it up? Or maybe

> there's something here for me to look at? I assume others share my

> experience? I assume I know what others experience? (yes, I can find

> that)

>

> Do you see something worth purusing here, Steve?

>

> love,

> Tom

[Guest guest]

Tom:

In this post, you seemed to be saying what I thought I was saying

only you said it better!

Love, Steve D.

> > ...

> > Related thought:

> >

> > Relationship with self and relationship with other are mutually

> > exclusive.

>

> Hi, Heidi. I kinda blew by this the first time I read your message.

> What's seeming more true to me right now is...

>

> Relationship with other is impossible without relationship with

self.

>

> or

>

> Relationship with other just reflects relationship with self.

>

> or something like that. So often in the past I have tried to make my

> relationship with myself better by working on my relationships with

> others. That is, I've tried to feel better about myself by treating

> others more nicely, trying to let them have their way, putting

myself

> down and them up, trying to manipulate LAA out of them, etc., etc.

>

> What seems to be getting clearer to me through the Work is that my

> approach has been backward. Now it seems that I can only improve my

> relationship with others by working on my relationship with myself.

> When I love myself and know that I have everything I need already,

I'm

> much more able to be interested in the well-being of another rather

> than wanting something from them.

>

> Thank you for putting your related thought out there so I could turn

> it around for myself.

>

> love,

> Tom

[Guest guest]

This is so excellent - I have all these thoughts about relationship

and The Work. It is great to see I am not alone and to read how The

Work has impacted the relationships described here.

I have half believed that The Work unwound my own relationship -

similar to the speculation Heidi makes about how it would affect her

own. In other words, I thought back then, " will doing The Work make

the relationship stronger or reveal it for what it really is? " In my

own case, the neediness I had for my partner definitely was

revealed. TW was like a Pandora's Box for me. I knew it, but I went

to that dark place anyway.

I knew my own neediness and selfishness affected the relationship but

TW made that more than clear to both me and my partner. I cursed TW

then and afterwards for the impact it had.

But, I can see now that the impersonal functioning of totality was in

charge... TW just was an instrument in the ending of our

partnership.

I think my path for a long time has been to get to the place where I

find LAA from within rather than my constant seeking of it from

others. God that is so powerful and gigantic for me. I depended so

much for LAA from *him* that it completely took me out of my own

body. Way too much pressure on him and no feeling of internal peace

for me.

I am buckling down now to embrace a lifetime's avoidance... me. To

finally get that I am enough. To finally believe I don't have beg or

diminish myself in order to receive love.

Thank you Heidi and everyone for telling my story. Tom and Steve

thank you for sharing that TW in relationship doesn't mean that the

relationship is now unecessary.

[Guest guest]

> Dear Tom:

>

> You said: " So, Steve, can you really know what Gail's experience is? "

>

> Of course not. Now I see said the blind man. I can't know anyone's

> experience. Just like my own experience, I can only have a story.

> Thanks for pointing this out to me Tom. My story is that it must

> have been in my " blind spot " .

That's a good one! May I use it sometime?

love,

Tom

[Guest guest]

Steve

My blind spot seems to be between my ears.

Do you have that kind of perspective?

Steve

Re: more attachment

Dear Tom:

You said: " So, Steve, can you really know what Gail's experience is? "

Of course not. Now I see said the blind man. I can't know anyone's

experience. Just like my own experience, I can only have a story. Thanks

for pointing this out to me Tom. My story is that it must

have been in my " blind spot " .

Love, Steve

> > Dear Tom:

> >

> > I don't knwo what you are seeing here? I am confused? Like I

said,

> > our thoughts are always about us, never the other person, so

Heidi

> > needed to clean Heidi's lense.

> >

> > I do my work and Gail does her work and we each get more clear

and

> > then we see how wonderful we really are. That is all I can think

of

> > right now.

> >

> > Beats me Tom, I am sort of foggy on what you see here.

>

> My curiosity was how you can be so clear that Heidi's stuff is about

> Heidi and not P, yet you seem to assume that you know all about

Gail's

> experience. There seems to me to be something of a contradiction

> there, and that may just be how I'm seeing it and have nothing to do

> with Steve.

>

> When you said (in your original message), " Gail and I's experience

has

> been ... " I wanted to ask, " Steve, can you really know what Gail's

> experience is? "

>

> And, I can turn it around to myself and ask, " Tom, can you really

know

> that Steve *doesn't* know Gail's experience? " And the answer is, no,

> of course not.

>

> So, Steve, can you really know what Gail's experience is?

>

> love,

> Tom

[Guest guest]

Dear Tom:

You have my permission to use " it " ; however, you don't really need my

permission as it is not mine.

Love, Steve D.

> > Dear Tom:

> >

> > You said: " So, Steve, can you really know what Gail's experience

is? "

> >

> > Of course not. Now I see said the blind man. I can't know

anyone's

> > experience. Just like my own experience, I can only have a story.

> > Thanks for pointing this out to me Tom. My story is that it must

> > have been in my " blind spot " .

>

> That's a good one! May I use it sometime?

>

> love,

> Tom

[Guest guest]

Hey Steve,

You have the same story I do, imagine that!

Steve D.

> > > Dear Tom:

> > >

> > > I don't knwo what you are seeing here? I am confused? Like I

> said,

> > > our thoughts are always about us, never the other person, so

> Heidi

> > > needed to clean Heidi's lense.

> > >

> > > I do my work and Gail does her work and we each get more clear

> and

> > > then we see how wonderful we really are. That is all I can

think

> of

> > > right now.

> > >

> > > Beats me Tom, I am sort of foggy on what you see here.

> >

> > My curiosity was how you can be so clear that Heidi's stuff is

about

> > Heidi and not P, yet you seem to assume that you know all about

> Gail's

> > experience. There seems to me to be something of a contradiction

> > there, and that may just be how I'm seeing it and have nothing to

do

> > with Steve.

> >

> > When you said (in your original message), " Gail and I's experience

> has

> > been ... " I wanted to ask, " Steve, can you really know what

Gail's

> > experience is? "

> >

> > And, I can turn it around to myself and ask, " Tom, can you really

> know

> > that Steve *doesn't* know Gail's experience? " And the answer is,

no,

> > of course not.

> >

> > So, Steve, can you really know what Gail's experience is?

> >

> > love,

> > Tom

>

>

>