Re: Is there anything to the Rife approach?

[Guest guest]

Hi Bil

Input voltage to the coils was 16v. I will be fitting a 18v

transformer later this week to drive the coils a bit harder. Maximum

wattage was not that high without the spark plugs 13.41/1000 = .0134

or 13.4 ma then .0134 x 400 = 5.36 watts. I used a 5 watt resistor.

However after refitting the spark plugs further testing was not

possible as the resistor turned into a mini radiator indicating a

much greater current flow. As stated at the lower frequencies over a

1000v was recorded. Measurements were taken on an analogue meter

across the tube.

I have no explanation for the greater current flow and would

appreciate someone more learned out there to offer a possible reason.

It should be pointed out that there is considerably more measurable

RF output with the spark plugs fitted than without. Again I am unable

to explain why. I use a " Field Strength Signal Meter " to test the

output strength.

I have believed for some time that the greater voltage across the

tube the more effective output will be achieved. How to do this

economically is the question.

There is another factor that may play a role but I am insufficiently

qualified to offer an opiniom. and that is: The Rife machines had

their oscillators built in to the actual amplifier, with RF

generation is it possible that stray RF within the casing could have

had an additional harmonic effect?

Mike Fellows

> >>

> >> > Hi ,

> >> >

> >> > The schematics at Aubrey's site. We've also been

> >> > discussing those

> >> > (a lil bit). But then the same question arises. Why

> >> > 928V if the

> >> > tube only needs 250V (which seems much too low for

> >> > any plasma

> >> > tube).

> >>

> >>

> >> High voltage is needed to light the tube, but after

> >> it's lit, lower voltage is needed to sustain it. In

> >> Rife's earliest experiments, the amplifier had lower

> >> voltage, so he had to apply a separate voltage to

> >> light the tube. This would explain why many of the

> >> lab notes have very low plate voltages.

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> > Neon tubes, EMEMs (including those using helium

> >> > filled

> >> > Phanatron's) and even those little plasma globes,

> >> > use thousands

> >> > of volts to keep the tube fired up.

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> Neon sign transformers are constant current devices.

> >> The voltage adjusts to whatever voltage is needed to

> >> maintain their rated constant current. They strike

> >> the tube with their high voltage, but after the tube

> >> is lit, the voltage comes down. As I mentioned

> >> earlier, I use a neon sign transformer to test the

> >> running voltage of phanotrons I've used and set up for

> >> other people. If I remember correctly, that last tube

> >> I measured was about 270 volts, even though the

> >> transformer is rated at 9000 volts max. I think the

> >> EMEM machines are just using a brute force approach;

> >> they don't have any way of optimizing the system after

> >> the tube is lit. I don't know how the plasma globes

> >> work, but I don't think they are the same as a proper

> >> neon or other gas plasma tube.

> >>

> >>

> >> > Maybe because the electrodes in the Phanatron are so

> >> > close

> >> > together? I'm just curious (as I'm sure others are).

> >>

> >>

> >> I believe there are several factors that affect the

> >> running voltage of a tube, which include electrode

> >> spacing, type of gas, pressure, and I'm sure a few

> >> other things I don't know about, but those are the

> >> main ones.

> >>

> >> Regards,

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

>

>

>

>

>

> MF>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I'll accurately measure the voltage of my EMEM this weekend.

According to what I said in the last e-mail it may well have

several thousand volts across it.

Mike may have used a meter instead of a scope. With an analog or

digital meter the reading can be way off when measuring an AC

voltage which is not a 60Hz sine wave.

Bil

PC 1000

M-Pulse 5000 magnetic pulse generator

http://magpulser.com

Mammoth Lakes, California

mailto:magpulser@...

JR> --- Bil Green wrote:

>> Hi ,

>>

>> Adding a large value resistor in series with the

>> plasma tube (in

>> an EMEM) greatly increases the voltage at the tube

>> (not across

>> the tube). This creates a very strong E-field.

JR> It would be better if we could increase the voltage

JR> across the tube as much as possible.

>> Some people run the tube ungrounded (HV to one end -

>> other end

>> disconnected). Voltage can be as high as 40,000V.

JR> That's a good way to do it; have a single electrode

JR> tube and the ground underneath the target, so that it

JR> goes right through where you want it.

JR> Regards,

JR>

JR>

[Guest guest]

Hi Mike,

Hope you read my other e-mail (correcting my error after

realizing I was seeing the wrong column in your test results).

What instrument did you use for measuring the voltage? Does one

end of your plasma tube get very hot? Since we both have EMEMs

lets report as many details as possible to get an accurate

picture of what's happening here.

Because the heat of my bubble tube felt more like 50W than 5W

(5W, assuming only 400V across the tube and 13mA - your

measurements) I suspect the voltage is more like several thousand

than 400. I'll know soon, as I use the scope and resistor divider

to measure it.

Bil

PC 1000

M-Pulse 5000 magnetic pulse generator

http://magpulser.com

Mammoth Lakes, California

mailto:magpulser@...

MF> Hi Bil

MF> Input voltage to the coils was 16v. I will be fitting a 18v

MF> transformer later this week to drive the coils a bit harder. Maximum

MF> wattage was not that high without the spark plugs 13.41/1000 = .0134

MF> or 13.4 ma then .0134 x 400 = 5.36 watts. I used a 5 watt resistor.

MF> However after refitting the spark plugs further testing was not

MF> possible as the resistor turned into a mini radiator indicating a

MF> much greater current flow. As stated at the lower frequencies over a

MF> 1000v was recorded. Measurements were taken on an analogue meter

MF> across the tube.

MF> I have no explanation for the greater current flow and would

MF> appreciate someone more learned out there to offer a possible reason.

MF> It should be pointed out that there is considerably more measurable

MF> RF output with the spark plugs fitted than without. Again I am unable

MF> to explain why. I use a " Field Strength Signal Meter " to test the

MF> output strength.

MF> I have believed for some time that the greater voltage across the

MF> tube the more effective output will be achieved. How to do this

MF> economically is the question.

MF> There is another factor that may play a role but I am insufficiently

MF> qualified to offer an opiniom. and that is: The Rife machines had

MF> their oscillators built in to the actual amplifier, with RF

MF> generation is it possible that stray RF within the casing could have

MF> had an additional harmonic effect?

MF> Mike Fellows

MF>

>> >>

>> >> > Hi ,

>> >> >

>> >> > The schematics at Aubrey's site. We've also been

>> >> > discussing those

>> >> > (a lil bit). But then the same question arises. Why

>> >> > 928V if the

>> >> > tube only needs 250V (which seems much too low for

>> >> > any plasma

>> >> > tube).

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> High voltage is needed to light the tube, but after

>> >> it's lit, lower voltage is needed to sustain it. In

>> >> Rife's earliest experiments, the amplifier had lower

>> >> voltage, so he had to apply a separate voltage to

>> >> light the tube. This would explain why many of the

>> >> lab notes have very low plate voltages.

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> > Neon tubes, EMEMs (including those using helium

>> >> > filled

>> >> > Phanatron's) and even those little plasma globes,

>> >> > use thousands

>> >> > of volts to keep the tube fired up.

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> Neon sign transformers are constant current devices.

>> >> The voltage adjusts to whatever voltage is needed to

>> >> maintain their rated constant current. They strike

>> >> the tube with their high voltage, but after the tube

>> >> is lit, the voltage comes down. As I mentioned

>> >> earlier, I use a neon sign transformer to test the

>> >> running voltage of phanotrons I've used and set up for

>> >> other people. If I remember correctly, that last tube

>> >> I measured was about 270 volts, even though the

>> >> transformer is rated at 9000 volts max. I think the

>> >> EMEM machines are just using a brute force approach;

>> >> they don't have any way of optimizing the system after

>> >> the tube is lit. I don't know how the plasma globes

>> >> work, but I don't think they are the same as a proper

>> >> neon or other gas plasma tube.

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> > Maybe because the electrodes in the Phanatron are so

>> >> > close

>> >> > together? I'm just curious (as I'm sure others are).

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> I believe there are several factors that affect the

>> >> running voltage of a tube, which include electrode

>> >> spacing, type of gas, pressure, and I'm sure a few

>> >> other things I don't know about, but those are the

>> >> main ones.

>> >>

>> >> Regards,

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> MF>

[Guest guest]

--- Bil Green wrote:

> Hi ,

<snip>

> Mike may have used a meter instead of a scope. With

> an analog or

> digital meter the reading can be way off when

> measuring an AC

> voltage which is not a 60Hz sine wave.

I have Fluke model 189, which I believe can measure to

higher frequencies. Can the transistor on the EMEM be

driven by a sine wave from a function generator? My

neon transformer is of course only 60 Hz.

Regards,

[Guest guest]

Hi Bill

I used an analogue meter set on AC and while you could well be

correct in thinking there is an error in my figures with respect to

voltage one still has to consider I only used a 5 watt resistor. Had

the wattage been anywhere near the sort of figures muted on Rife's

machines it would have fried the resistor pretty much instantly.

Has anyone ever measured the output from an EMEM machine before?

As previously stated the RF output, with the plugs fitted, is quite

significant and not that much different than the Rife/Bare setup I

have which runs at between 75 -100 watts. Highest reading on the EMEM

is @ 10KHz.

Look forward to seeing your results for comparison.

Mike Fellows

> >> >>

> >> >> > Hi ,

> >> >> >

> >> >> > The schematics at Aubrey's site. We've also been

> >> >> > discussing those

> >> >> > (a lil bit). But then the same question arises. Why

> >> >> > 928V if the

> >> >> > tube only needs 250V (which seems much too low for

> >> >> > any plasma

> >> >> > tube).

> >> >>

> >> >>

> >> >> High voltage is needed to light the tube, but after

> >> >> it's lit, lower voltage is needed to sustain it. In

> >> >> Rife's earliest experiments, the amplifier had lower

> >> >> voltage, so he had to apply a separate voltage to

> >> >> light the tube. This would explain why many of the

> >> >> lab notes have very low plate voltages.

> >> >>

> >> >>

> >> >>

> >> >> > Neon tubes, EMEMs (including those using helium

> >> >> > filled

> >> >> > Phanatron's) and even those little plasma globes,

> >> >> > use thousands

> >> >> > of volts to keep the tube fired up.

> >> >>

> >> >>

> >> >>

> >> >> Neon sign transformers are constant current devices.

> >> >> The voltage adjusts to whatever voltage is needed to

> >> >> maintain their rated constant current. They strike

> >> >> the tube with their high voltage, but after the tube

> >> >> is lit, the voltage comes down. As I mentioned

> >> >> earlier, I use a neon sign transformer to test the

> >> >> running voltage of phanotrons I've used and set up for

> >> >> other people. If I remember correctly, that last tube

> >> >> I measured was about 270 volts, even though the

> >> >> transformer is rated at 9000 volts max. I think the

> >> >> EMEM machines are just using a brute force approach;

> >> >> they don't have any way of optimizing the system after

> >> >> the tube is lit. I don't know how the plasma globes

> >> >> work, but I don't think they are the same as a proper

> >> >> neon or other gas plasma tube.

> >> >>

> >> >>

> >> >> > Maybe because the electrodes in the Phanatron are so

> >> >> > close

> >> >> > together? I'm just curious (as I'm sure others are).

> >> >>

> >> >>

> >> >> I believe there are several factors that affect the

> >> >> running voltage of a tube, which include electrode

> >> >> spacing, type of gas, pressure, and I'm sure a few

> >> >> other things I don't know about, but those are the

> >> >> main ones.

> >> >>

> >> >> Regards,

> >> >>

> >> >>

> >> >>

> >> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> MF>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

That's a nice Fluke. .005% accuracy is great. My Fluke is .01%.

You can just hang the test leads near the plasma tube (not too

close) of an EMEM and accurately measure the frequency.

I don't know if yours will measure the voltage output of an EMEM

properly unless you use a clean sine wave at the input.

Yes, the transistor in the EMEM can be driven using a sine wave,

adjusting the output of your FG to light the tube to full

brightness (IOW not more voltage than necessary).

A 60Hz transformer can be driven at much higher frequencies. I

use a 110V to 12V step down transformer (wired in reverse) for a

magpulser I designed (not our current model) to supply 350VDC

with a 12VDC input.

The transformer is part of a simple oscillator circuit which

operates at around 1kHz, supplies plenty of power and is 50%

efficient (not bad considering it's no where near 60Hz).

Bil

PC 1000

M-Pulse 5000 magnetic pulse generator

http://magpulser.com

Mammoth Lakes, California

mailto:magpulser@...

JR> --- Bil Green wrote:

>> Hi ,

JR> <snip>

>> Mike may have used a meter instead of a scope. With

>> an analog or

>> digital meter the reading can be way off when

>> measuring an AC

>> voltage which is not a 60Hz sine wave.

JR> I have Fluke model 189, which I believe can measure to

JR> higher frequencies. Can the transistor on the EMEM be

JR> driven by a sine wave from a function generator? My

JR> neon transformer is of course only 60 Hz.

JR> Regards,

JR>

JR>

[Guest guest]

Hi

While carrying out the recent tests I used sine, square and triangle,

there were no significant differences in the results.

Regards, Mike

>

> > Hi ,

> <snip>

> > Mike may have used a meter instead of a scope. With

> > an analog or

> > digital meter the reading can be way off when

> > measuring an AC

> > voltage which is not a 60Hz sine wave.

>

>

> I have Fluke model 189, which I believe can measure to

> higher frequencies. Can the transistor on the EMEM be

> driven by a sine wave from a function generator? My

> neon transformer is of course only 60 Hz.

>

> Regards,

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Any basic R/B setup will do, CB, function generator, power supply, with the

following exceptions.

The linear amp must have a VM (variable modulator). I use an old Cobra 200VM but

any VM 200-350 will do. The antenna tuner must be reasonably accurate, within

0.5 -1 %

The MFJ 949E will do. Better still with the external balun MFJ 912 or

equivalent.

Attach the antenna leads to the tube to be tested. Switch on all components,

make sure

the function generator is not in pulse or sweep mode and set to +/- 2KHz.

Set the modulator to appr. 100 -150W and key or switch the CB to function.

Now tune the tuner to the best possible SWR. When this point is reached modulate

the power

on the amp. Going down often lowers the SWR further but up to a point. You may

have to go down to 80 or even 70W

depending upon the type of tube, beyond a certain point the SWR increases

rapidly indicating the tube DEMANDS

more juice. If you like I can send a picture of this test setup.

Regards,

Gordon

--- Gordon wrote:

>

> ,

<snip>

> Therefore I have developed a simple test setup to

> determine the exact amount of power(wattage) a tube

> needs. I feel this a must as no two tubes, as yet,

> are the same. Anything more than that results in

> component failure and heat dissipation. A number of

> years ago I forwarded these findings to this list,

> but no´´one seemed interested

> at the time. <snip>

I went into my archives and reread your post. Could

you repeat it, perhaps with step by step directions?

I wasn't sure about the details.

Regards,

[Guest guest]

Hello Bill,

is correct about the Phanatron tube taking around 250 volts to

light. I have built both the AZ-58 and the Aubrey Scoon instruments.

Both of these were built and designed by Verne . The AZ-58

outputs about 15 watts and the Scoon instrument about 13 watts. I

measured the voltage to the tube on the AZ-58 and it was about 330

volts. The Scoon instrument is a little less at about 290 volts.

Having built eight AZ-58s I have found they all vary a little on the

output voltage.

One of the problems that needs to be pointed out is the Scoon

instrument is not a Beam Rays instrument built by Hoyland. Scoon, I

am sure, knew the history of this instrument. Bedini was

looking at purchasing this instrument before Scoon did. He fully

investigated it and found out that it was built by Verne in

the early 1940s. The RF section of both the AZ-58 and Scoon's Verne

machine are almost identical in their output. There are two

photos of Beam Rays instruments and they look nothing like Scoon's

instrument. One photo is from the 1938 newspaper and the other is a

photo of Dr. Couche's Beam Rays instruemnt. Until people understand

that Scoon's instrument is not a Beam Rays instrument there will

still be alot of confusion.

Best wishes

Jeff Garff

>

> Hi Gordon,

>

> What do you think about a Phanatron tube requiring only 250V? (if

> the supply voltage is 600V, as seen on some of the schematics

> using vacuum tubes). Have you seen any plasma tubes require much

> less than 1,000V using a carrier in the MHz range?

>

> Bil

>

> PC 1000

> M-Pulse 5000 magnetic pulse generator

> http://magpulser.com

> Mammoth Lakes, California

>

>

> mailto:magpulser@...

>

>

> G> ,

>

> G> To answer your query about tubes used in the experiment,

> G> apart from a number of straight tubes I also did use two

> G> phanotron type tubes. One filled with Helium and one with

> G> Argon.

> G> The same observations as previously mentioned apply.

> G> I would like to mention that apart from a setup where

> G> you can modulate voltage at a given current the reverse is

> G> also possible.

> G> A number of experiments called for constant high

> G> voltages and the current then became the modulator. In the

> G> neon industry some bombarding machines, not all, use up to

> G> and over 12KVolts and a modulating current to bombard tubes.

> G> If the output of any given setup exceeds the demand of

> G> the tube, as with the 1KW experiment,

> G> the stress on components is tremendous and you are able

> G> to fry an egg on the tube within minutes. Therefore I have

> G> developed a simple test setup to determine the exact amount of

> G> power(wattage) a tube needs. I feel this a must as no two

> G> tubes, as yet, are the same. Anything more than that results

> G> in component failure and heat dissipation. A number of years

> G> ago I forwarded these findings to this list, but no´´one

> G> seemed interested

> G> at the time. In some configuration the plate voltage

> G> does not change either. For instance, a simple solid state

> G> Tesla coil. The operating voltage, depending on the HV

> G> transformer, runs at 3 to 6 KV regardless of what tube you

> G> hang on the wires.

>

> G> Best regards,

>

> G> Gordon

>

> G>