Re: Re: Overcoming Autism Book

[Guest guest]

Thanks for your support Kari. The main problem seems to be that we have taught him to communicate using signs assuming that at some point he would become verbal. But now trying to get him to talk, he is signing instead. It's gonna be so difficult to break him of signing now. Ugh.

Re: "Overcoming Autism" Book

What did he do at therapy when there were no movies? Would that be amore appropriate setting in which you could revisit the PRTstrategies? Does he EVER pick up a toy. or get involved in anythingbut TV? Playground? being pushed on a swing? Can you pause the movieand try to get him to say "play"? Maybe a new toy would entice him?One that he doesn't have a sign for. When we were first starting out,we put ALL of 's toys in a locked closet so that he would be putinto a situation where he HAD to communicate to get ANYTHING. Afriend of mine who is a psychologist/behavioral therapist suggestedthis and at first, I thought she was crazy. and then I thought thetoys will never get put away, but we did it and it helped. We hadtotal control of the reinforcers. same with outdoor play. he lovedto swing. I wouldn't push him until he said push. I would evenoccasionally stop him so he'd have to say it more often. and when hewas doing that well, I wouldn't push until he asked me with eyecontact. this is how we lived every moment of every day. Before his diagnosis, we always felt like had gains after hespent time with my parents or my husband's parents. He knew that Iknew that a throat clearing sound meant he was thirsty. I would gethim water sometimes just out of habit. Other people didn't know thatand he'd be forced to communicate his needs more. Usually just bypulling them where he wanted them to go and throwing their handstoward the sink, but it did make him think through it a little more. Is there anyone he can spend a little quality time with? was verbal before we even realized he had autism. He startedspeaking (just labeling and echoing, no communication) when he wasalmost 2 and wasn't diagnosed until he was 3 yr/9 mo. Every step ofthe way has been a struggle. I never went through what you're goingthrough, but I can imagine it's terribly frustrating. I really hopeyou can get the ball rolling after reading the book. Even just onelittle idea might get something going. I wish you the best!Kari>> I received the "Overcoming Autism" book in the mail today. Got it > just so I could read and hopefully implement the communication > strategies for my non-verbal son. Problem is, these are the same > techniques that I and all his therapists (he gets over 30 hours per > week of wrap around services) have been doing for years with no luck > whatsoever. He does have much improved joint attention now though, > since starting antivirals, so I will continue trying this approach. > My bigger problem is this... when I use his favorite item to try and > get sounds/words, the item is MOVIE (his 24 hour preferred > activity...sigh). He knows and uses the sign for movie. So when I > try to get him to sound it out with his mouth, he signs for it. When > I tap my mouth to try to show him I want him to use his voice not his > sign, he imitates by tapping his mouth. And now he is getting > frustrated because I will not turn the movie on when he signs MOVIE. > We worked so hard to get him to use signs and now we should not > accept them? The book says to use his absolute favorite things to > get words. His absolute favorite thing is MOVIE and there's not much > else. What to do now???> > >

[Guest guest]

It's not a bad thing that you taught him to sign.  You just need to figure out how to get him to pair the word or sound with the sign.  Is his issue apraxia?CherylThanks for your support Kari.  The main problem seems to be that we have taught him to communicate using signs assuming that at some point he would become verbal.  But now trying to get him to talk, he is signing instead.  It's gonna be so difficult to break him of signing now.  Ugh.    Re: "Overcoming Autism" BookWhat did he do at therapy when there were no movies? Would that be amore appropriate setting in which you could revisit the PRTstrategies? Does he EVER pick up a toy. or get involved in anythingbut TV? Playground? being pushed on a swing? Can you pause the movieand try to get him to say "play"? Maybe a new toy would entice him?One that he doesn't have a sign for. When we were first starting out,we put ALL of 's toys in a locked closet so that he would be putinto a situation where he HAD to communicate to get ANYTHING. Afriend of mine who is a psychologist/behavioral therapist suggestedthis and at first, I thought she was crazy. and then I thought thetoys will never get put away, but we did it and it helped. We hadtotal control of the reinforcers. same with outdoor play. he lovedto swing. I wouldn't push him until he said push. I would evenoccasionally stop him so he'd have to say it more often. and when hewas doing that well, I wouldn't push until he asked me with eyecontact. this is how we lived every moment of every day. Before his diagnosis, we always felt like had gains after hespent time with my parents or my husband's parents. He knew that Iknew that a throat clearing sound meant he was thirsty. I would gethim water sometimes just out of habit. Other people didn't know thatand he'd be forced to communicate his needs more. Usually just bypulling them where he wanted them to go and throwing their handstoward the sink, but it did make him think through it a little more. Is there anyone he can spend a little quality time with? was verbal before we even realized he had autism. He startedspeaking (just labeling and echoing, no communication) when he wasalmost 2 and wasn't diagnosed until he was 3 yr/9 mo. Every step ofthe way has been a struggle. I never went through what you're goingthrough, but I can imagine it's terribly frustrating. I really hopeyou can get the ball rolling after reading the book. Even just onelittle idea might get something going. I wish you the best!Kari>> I received the "Overcoming Autism" book in the mail today. Got it > just so I could read and hopefully implement the communication > strategies for my non-verbal son. Problem is, these are the same > techniques that I and all his therapists (he gets over 30 hours per > week of wrap around services) have been doing for years with no luck > whatsoever. He does have much improved joint attention now though, > since starting antivirals, so I will continue trying this approach. > My bigger problem is this... when I use his favorite item to try and > get sounds/words, the item is MOVIE (his 24 hour preferred > activity...sigh). He knows and uses the sign for movie. So when I > try to get him to sound it out with his mouth, he signs for it. When > I tap my mouth to try to show him I want him to use his voice not his > sign, he imitates by tapping his mouth. And now he is getting > frustrated because I will not turn the movie on when he signs MOVIE. > We worked so hard to get him to use signs and now we should not > accept them? The book says to use his absolute favorite things to > get words. His absolute favorite thing is MOVIE and there's not much > else. What to do now???> > >

[Guest guest]

Yep, definitely apraxic. We used to think no apraxia...he had more sounds a year ago than he does now. His 'nonverbal-ness' is getting worse, not better.

Re: "Overcoming Autism" Book

What did he do at therapy when there were no movies? Would that be amore appropriate setting in which you could revisit the PRTstrategies? Does he EVER pick up a toy. or get involved in anythingbut TV? Playground? being pushed on a swing? Can you pause the movieand try to get him to say "play"? Maybe a new toy would entice him?One that he doesn't have a sign for. When we were first starting out,we put ALL of 's toys in a locked closet so that he would be putinto a situation where he HAD to communicate to get ANYTHING. Afriend of mine who is a psychologist/behavioral therapist suggestedthis and at first, I thought she was crazy. and then I thought thetoys will never get put away, but we did it and it helped. We hadtotal control of the reinforcers. same with outdoor play. he lovedto swing. I wouldn't push him until he said push. I would evenoccasionally stop him so he'd have to say it more often. and when hewas doing that well, I wouldn't push until he asked me with eyecontact. this is how we lived every moment of every day. Before his diagnosis, we always felt like had gains after hespent time with my parents or my husband's parents. He knew that Iknew that a throat clearing sound meant he was thirsty. I would gethim water sometimes just out of habit. Other people didn't know thatand he'd be forced to communicate his needs more. Usually just bypulling them where he wanted them to go and throwing their handstoward the sink, but it did make him think through it a little more. Is there anyone he can spend a little quality time with? was verbal before we even realized he had autism. He startedspeaking (just labeling and echoing, no communication) when he wasalmost 2 and wasn't diagnosed until he was 3 yr/9 mo. Every step ofthe way has been a struggle. I never went through what you're goingthrough, but I can imagine it's terribly frustrating. I really hopeyou can get the ball rolling after reading the book. Even just onelittle idea might get something going. I wish you the best!Kari>> I received the "Overcoming Autism" book in the mail today. Got it > just so I could read and hopefully implement the communication > strategies for my non-verbal son. Problem is, these are the same > techniques that I and all his therapists (he gets over 30 hours per > week of wrap around services) have been doing for years with no luck > whatsoever. He does have much improved joint attention now though, > since starting antivirals, so I will continue trying this approach. > My bigger problem is this... when I use his favorite item to try and > get sounds/words, the item is MOVIE (his 24 hour preferred > activity...sigh). He knows and uses the sign for movie. So when I > try to get him to sound it out with his mouth, he signs for it. When > I tap my mouth to try to show him I want him to use his voice not his > sign, he imitates by tapping his mouth. And now he is getting > frustrated because I will not turn the movie on when he signs MOVIE. > We worked so hard to get him to use signs and now we should not > accept them? The book says to use his absolute favorite things to > get words. His absolute favorite thing is MOVIE and there's not much > else. What to do now???> > >

[Guest guest]

That's a clear sign of verbal apraxia.  Don't drop the signs, add PECS and start with sounds before words.  You need to make sure you have a good slp experienced with apraxia.  Also make sure you have as many of the "talking" supps as you can get.  Definitely use the movies to your advantage by just trying to pull "mmm" out of him.  Do as many oral motor exercises as you can.  Also incorporate cross lateral work into your program.  You may also want to add ait.CherylYep, definitely apraxic. We used to think no apraxia...he had more sounds a year ago than he does now. His 'nonverbal-ness' is getting worse, not better.    Re: "Overcoming Autism" BookWhat did he do at therapy when there were no movies? Would that be amore appropriate setting in which you could revisit the PRTstrategies? Does he EVER pick up a toy. or get involved in anythingbut TV? Playground? being pushed on a swing? Can you pause the movieand try to get him to say "play"? Maybe a new toy would entice him?One that he doesn't have a sign for. When we were first starting out,we put ALL of 's toys in a locked closet so that he would be putinto a situation where he HAD to communicate to get ANYTHING. Afriend of mine who is a psychologist/behavioral therapist suggestedthis and at first, I thought she was crazy. and then I thought thetoys will never get put away, but we did it and it helped. We hadtotal control of the reinforcers. same with outdoor play. he lovedto swing. I wouldn't push him until he said push. I would evenoccasionally stop him so he'd have to say it more often. and when hewas doing that well, I wouldn't push until he asked me with eyecontact. this is how we lived every moment of every day. Before his diagnosis, we always felt like had gains after hespent time with my parents or my husband's parents. He knew that Iknew that a throat clearing sound meant he was thirsty. I would gethim water sometimes just out of habit. Other people didn't know thatand he'd be forced to communicate his needs more. Usually just bypulling them where he wanted them to go and throwing their handstoward the sink, but it did make him think through it a little more. Is there anyone he can spend a little quality time with? was verbal before we even realized he had autism. He startedspeaking (just labeling and echoing, no communication) when he wasalmost 2 and wasn't diagnosed until he was 3 yr/9 mo. Every step ofthe way has been a struggle. I never went through what you're goingthrough, but I can imagine it's terribly frustrating. I really hopeyou can get the ball rolling after reading the book. Even just onelittle idea might get something going. I wish you the best!Kari>> I received the "Overcoming Autism" book in the mail today. Got it > just so I could read and hopefully implement the communication > strategies for my non-verbal son. Problem is, these are the same > techniques that I and all his therapists (he gets over 30 hours per > week of wrap around services) have been doing for years with no luck > whatsoever. He does have much improved joint attention now though, > since starting antivirals, so I will continue trying this approach. > My bigger problem is this... when I use his favorite item to try and > get sounds/words, the item is MOVIE (his 24 hour preferred > activity...sigh). He knows and uses the sign for movie. So when I > try to get him to sound it out with his mouth, he signs for it. When > I tap my mouth to try to show him I want him to use his voice not his > sign, he imitates by tapping his mouth. And now he is getting > frustrated because I will not turn the movie on when he signs MOVIE. > We worked so hard to get him to use signs and now we should not > accept them? The book says to use his absolute favorite things to > get words. His absolute favorite thing is MOVIE and there's not much > else. What to do now???> > >

[Guest guest]

I feel for what you're going through. Our son also just could not make the sounds at all -- no ABA behavioral motivation would work for him because no matter how motivated, or how hard he tried, he just could not form the sounds. I know it's so hard! This went on for years.

What finally worked for us was honestly a combination of biomed, including TD chelation, and using the PROMPT system with a Speech/Oral Motor therapist. The Speech therapist would give us lots of oral motor work to do at home to help to make him more aware of his mouth and all it's parts, and to exercise his muscles -- since he hadn't been talking, he had very low tone. Those were tough -- he was sensory defensive, but over a long time, they did work to help him be more aware of what to use to make the sounds. Improved jaw strength and stability, helped him learn to move his tongue,e tc.

Then the prompt system is a method of touching the child to help trigger what he needs to do to make a sound. Like two fingers over the upper lip in the middle for EE, or a little push up under his chin to help him know to raise his tonge for other sounds, etc. Again, time consuming, but it worked. It helped get him started on what to do to make a sound.

And in the mean time, we used every other method -- signing, PECs, etc. to help him with his frustration over not being able to talk.

Hang in there! I hope some of these ideas can help. We do the shots as well; I think they were some help, but not enough in our case.

Best to you,

Christi

-----Original Message-----From: mb12 valtrex [mailto:mb12 valtrex ] On Behalf Of tommysmommy67Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 8:16 AMTo: mb12 valtrex Subject: Re: "Overcoming Autism" Book

But he can say no words at all...repeat NO sounds at all. He just gets frustrated and cries and has a MAJOR meltdown and beats me or the therpist up with head butts, kicks, slaps, bites. The book says only to use things that are totally reinforcing and that he is motivated to say. He would not be reinforced or motivated to say a, b, c, d. > > >> > > I received the "Overcoming Autism" book in the mail today. > Got it > > > just so I could read and hopefully implement the > communication > > > strategies for my non-verbal son. Problem is, these are the > same > > > techniques that I and all his therapists (he gets over 30 > hours per > > > week of wrap around services) have been doing for years > with no luck > > > whatsoever. He does have much improved joint attention now > though, > > > since starting antivirals, so I will continue trying this > approach. > > > My bigger problem is this... when I use his favorite item > to try and > > > get sounds/words, the item is MOVIE (his 24 hour preferred > > > activity...sigh). He knows and uses the sign for movie. So > when I > > > try to get him to sound it out with his mouth, he signs for > it. When > > > I tap my mouth to try to show him I want him to use his > voice not his > > > sign, he imitates by tapping his mouth. And now he is > getting > > > frustrated because I will not turn the movie on when he > signs MOVIE. > > > We worked so hard to get him to use signs and now we should > not > > > accept them? The book says to use his absolute favorite > things to > > > get words. His absolute favorite thing is MOVIE and there's > not much > > > else. What to do now???> > > > > > > > >> >>

[Guest guest]

Maybe you should try to get him to be verbal when

he's signing. This way, you don't have to

extinguish one behaviour to get another.

Also, you mentioned tapping your mouth to

indicate that you wanted him to speak, then he

started tapping. This is actually a good thing

in that it shows he's motivated to do what you

want to get what he wants. He just isn't sure

what you want.

I'd discontinue the tapping and anything other

than modeling the appropriate response. As

others have mentioned, using someone else to

model the behaviour you want is good too. Also,

you can accept anything close to the behavior you

want in the beginning, to help shape the

behavior. I'd even accept a partial response, or

any vocalization to begin with.

Kim

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[Guest guest]

MB12DMG/TMGcarnosinecarnotineThat's all I can remember at the moment.  I'm sure I'm missing  a few.CherylWe are putting him back on mb12 shots very soon. What are other talking supps?> >> >> >> > I received the "Overcoming Autism" book in the mail today. Got it> >> > just so I could read and hopefully implement the communication> >> > strategies for my non-verbal son. Problem is, these are the same> >> > techniques that I and all his therapists (he gets over 30 hours per> >> > week of wrap around services) have been doing for years with no > >> luck> >> > whatsoever. He does have much improved joint attention now though,> >> > since starting antivirals, so I will continue trying this approach.> >> > My bigger problem is this... when I use his favorite item to try > >> and> >> > get sounds/words, the item is MOVIE (his 24 hour preferred> >> > activity...sigh). He knows and uses the sign for movie. So when I> >> > try to get him to sound it out with his mouth, he signs for it. > >> When> >> > I tap my mouth to try to show him I want him to use his voice > >> not his> >> > sign, he imitates by tapping his mouth. And now he is getting> >> > frustrated because I will not turn the movie on when he signs > >> MOVIE.> >> > We worked so hard to get him to use signs and now we should not> >> > accept them? The book says to use his absolute favorite things to> >> > get words. His absolute favorite thing is MOVIE and there's not > >> much> >> > else. What to do now???> >> >> >> > > >> >> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >>

[Guest guest]

I wanted to also say that the reason you shouldn't drop the signs is because with apraxia, you don't want to take away their methods of communication/language.  You have to remember that speech and language are two very different things.  you can have the ability to speak but still not have language and vice versa.  Apraxia is a very frustrating and difficult disorder to work through for the child as much as it is the parents.  The more you can get language, the more you can encourage speech.  You have to start very small and get sounds first.  Approximations come slowly in apraxia.  It's a lot of work and can take years.  Find what motivates him and use it.  Model everything for him at all times.  Instead of modeling the whole word "movie" start by modeling "mmm".  Speak with your slp and get a list of the first sounds children make and start with those.  Firsts sounds are consonants like  /b/, /c/, /g/, /d/.  Work on one sound a week and keep going over them and starting all over at the beginning once you've gone through all those sounds until he has all those sounds.  If he wants a cookie, model the /c/ sound.  Once he has all the sounds, then you can start slowly building on those sounds.  Such as when he gets /c/, add in the next sound to the word "cookie".  You have to break it down into phonemes (individual sounds).  Get a lot of flash cards, oral motor tools, games etc. - if you go to sites meant for speech therapist you can find cards, games, etc that are all geared towards sounds.Here are some sites:http://www.linguisystems.com/index.phphttp://www.talkingchild.com/shop_FirstWordsSignCards.aspxAnd here's a good site thart might be able to give you some ideas and inspiration:http://www.apraxiaeducation.org/stories.aspxHope that helps.CherylMB12DMG/TMGcarnosinecarnotineThat's all I can remember at the moment.  I'm sure I'm missing  a few.CherylWe are putting him back on mb12 shots very soon. What are other talking supps?> >> >> >> > I received the "Overcoming Autism" book in the mail today. Got it> >> > just so I could read and hopefully implement the communication> >> > strategies for my non-verbal son. Problem is, these are the same> >> > techniques that I and all his therapists (he gets over 30 hours per> >> > week of wrap around services) have been doing for years with no > >> luck> >> > whatsoever. He does have much improved joint attention now though,> >> > since starting antivirals, so I will continue trying this approach.> >> > My bigger problem is this... when I use his favorite item to try > >> and> >> > get sounds/words, the item is MOVIE (his 24 hour preferred> >> > activity...sigh). He knows and uses the sign for movie. So when I> >> > try to get him to sound it out with his mouth, he signs for it. > >> When> >> > I tap my mouth to try to show him I want him to use his voice > >> not his> >> > sign, he imitates by tapping his mouth. And now he is getting> >> > frustrated because I will not turn the movie on when he signs > >> MOVIE.> >> > We worked so hard to get him to use signs and now we should not> >> > accept them? The book says to use his absolute favorite things to> >> > get words. His absolute favorite thing is MOVIE and there's not > >> much> >> > else. What to do now???> >> >> >> > > >> >> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Christi.

RE: Re: "Overcoming Autism" Book

I feel for what you're going through. Our son also just could not make the sounds at all -- no ABA behavioral motivation would work for him because no matter how motivated, or how hard he tried, he just could not form the sounds. I know it's so hard! This went on for years.

What finally worked for us was honestly a combination of biomed, including TD chelation, and using the PROMPT system with a Speech/Oral Motor therapist. The Speech therapist would give us lots of oral motor work to do at home to help to make him more aware of his mouth and all it's parts, and to exercise his muscles -- since he hadn't been talking, he had very low tone. Those were tough -- he was sensory defensive, but over a long time, they did work to help him be more aware of what to use to make the sounds. Improved jaw strength and stability, helped him learn to move his tongue,e tc.

Then the prompt system is a method of touching the child to help trigger what he needs to do to make a sound. Like two fingers over the upper lip in the middle for EE, or a little push up under his chin to help him know to raise his tonge for other sounds, etc. Again, time consuming, but it worked. It helped get him started on what to do to make a sound.

And in the mean time, we used every other method -- signing, PECs, etc. to help him with his frustration over not being able to talk.

Hang in there! I hope some of these ideas can help. We do the shots as well; I think they were some help, but not enough in our case.

Best to you,

Christi

-----Original Message-----From: mb12 valtrex [mailto:mb12 valtrex ] On Behalf Of tommysmommy67Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 8:16 AMTo: mb12 valtrex Subject: Re: "Overcoming Autism" Book

But he can say no words at all...repeat NO sounds at all. He just gets frustrated and cries and has a MAJOR meltdown and beats me or the therpist up with head butts, kicks, slaps, bites. The book says only to use things that are totally reinforcing and that he is motivated to say. He would not be reinforced or motivated to say a, b, c, d. > > >> > > I received the "Overcoming Autism" book in the mail today. > Got it > > > just so I could read and hopefully implement the > communication > > > strategies for my non-verbal son. Problem is, these are the > same > > > techniques that I and all his therapists (he gets over 30 > hours per > > > week of wrap around services) have been doing for years > with no luck > > > whatsoever. He does have much improved joint attention now > though, > > > since starting antivirals, so I will continue trying this > approach. > > > My bigger problem is this... when I use his favorite item > to try and > > > get sounds/words, the item is MOVIE (his 24 hour preferred > > > activity...sigh). He knows and uses the sign for movie. So > when I > > > try to get him to sound it out with his mouth, he signs for > it. When > > > I tap my mouth to try to show him I want him to use his > voice not his > > > sign, he imitates by tapping his mouth. And now he is > getting > > > frustrated because I will not turn the movie on when he > signs MOVIE. > > > We worked so hard to get him to use signs and now we should > not > > > accept them? The book says to use his absolute favorite > things to > > > get words. His absolute favorite thing is MOVIE and there's > not much > > > else. What to do now???> > > > > > > > >> >>