Re: Struggling

[Guest guest]

Welcome to our world. You are very much a hurt child like the rest of

us. I have heard the word selfish so many times...basically like you ,

when I would try to do some thing for me. Now I'm also selfish and

unchristian! You can't win, but you can heal yourself. It will make

you a great doctor one of these days! I'll post more later, but now I'm

off to a banquet - wish me luck, I'm the emcee!

Have you read SWOE yet?

Ilene

adoann_ie wrote:

> Dear All,

>

> I am new to this group and desperatly seeking some advice. I am

> currently in my fifth month of therapy trying to understand my low

> self-esteem, self-defeating behaviors, and lack of emotions toward

> people. I also am a second-year medical student in the middle of my

> Psychiatry block of instruction. We had our lecture on personality

> disorders on Tuesday and I got really upset in class as the teacher

> started to describe Boarderline Personality Disorder. She was talking

> about my father! I had already identified in therapy that my parents

> were still very enmeshed in my life. I start to remember my father's

> rages from about age 11. I lived in terror of getting yelled at, he

> didn't care where or when he did it. I was publically embarressed by

> him so very many times. But now as an adult I find that I'm very

> critical of myself, either to avoid the crisizm I always fear or

> because I fear that I will become my father. When I tried to escape

> from my parents' control during the end of high-school and college I

> was consistantly refered to as " selfish " , espcially when I left early

> for college during breaks after one of my father's rages. I find I

> have trouble expressing my emotions because I'm afraid of being the

> horrible person my father was at certain points in my life. But I'm

> also very confused, because my father loves me so much and is never

> afraid to tell me so. He is so proud of me. I feel guilty even being

> upset at him for how he treated me growing up, like somehow I

> deserved it. That I didn't do the dishes or cleaned the living room,

> because I knew it would set him off. That if I had been more perfect

> I wouldn't have gotten yelled at so much. I am just hurting so very

> much right now, trying to make sense of everything. I'm not sure

> there is even a question in this, but I'm like to hear some

> reactions. Any feedback would be good.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I " m back....now, where was your mom? how's your therapy going? I was in

therapy for two yrs. and that along with this group really helped me get

started on healing. I realize that the damage went pretty deep and it's

going to be a while. I'm sure that in med school, you're plenty busy,

but reading books like " Emotional Blackmail " , " Codependent No More " ,

" toxic Parents " , " Dance of anger " , and " Boundaries " by Cloud and

Townsend (Christian but not preachy) and " Boundaries " by Anne

are all good ways toget more normal thought patterns into your head. I

also liked " Changes that Heal " by Cloud (another Christian one). It

sounds like you are pretty tied to your fada emotionally - they are very

good about not letting us separate from them and " grow up " . I was on

this list for awhile before I finally felt like a " real grownup " ! And

I'm in my 40's with 3 kids! Post away! This list can really validate

the craziness you went through, because we've been similiar situations.

We understand how bad the FOG is ....fear, obligation and guilt. I'm

an only child so I was both the good child and the bad child....my

therapist pointed out to me that my English teacher nada (list term for

mother) even changed paragraphs when she would split me from good to

bad! I spent 2 yrs not talking to her and would have continued but we

moved 2100 miles away and I was worried (she's 89). Now I write to her,

but dread her letters back. I've gotten much better though at forcing

her out of my head when she writes mean stuff ect., which is progress.

Ilene

Ilene Pedersen wrote:

> Welcome to our world. You are very much a hurt child like the rest of

> us. I have heard the word selfish so many times...basically like you ,

> when I would try to do some thing for me. Now I'm also selfish and

> unchristian! You can't win, but you can heal yourself. It will make

> you a great doctor one of these days! I'll post more later, but now I'm

> off to a banquet - wish me luck, I'm the emcee!

> Have you read SWOE yet?

> Ilene

>

> adoann_ie wrote:

>

> > Dear All,

> >

> > I am new to this group and desperatly seeking some advice. I am

> > currently in my fifth month of therapy trying to understand my low

> > self-esteem, self-defeating behaviors, and lack of emotions toward

> > people. I also am a second-year medical student in the middle of my

> > Psychiatry block of instruction. We had our lecture on personality

> > disorders on Tuesday and I got really upset in class as the teacher

> > started to describe Boarderline Personality Disorder. She was talking

> > about my father! I had already identified in therapy that my parents

> > were still very enmeshed in my life. I start to remember my father's

> > rages from about age 11. I lived in terror of getting yelled at, he

> > didn't care where or when he did it. I was publically embarressed by

> > him so very many times. But now as an adult I find that I'm very

> > critical of myself, either to avoid the crisizm I always fear or

> > because I fear that I will become my father. When I tried to escape

> > from my parents' control during the end of high-school and college I

> > was consistantly refered to as " selfish " , espcially when I left early

> > for college during breaks after one of my father's rages. I find I

> > have trouble expressing my emotions because I'm afraid of being the

> > horrible person my father was at certain points in my life. But I'm

> > also very confused, because my father loves me so much and is never

> > afraid to tell me so. He is so proud of me. I feel guilty even being

> > upset at him for how he treated me growing up, like somehow I

> > deserved it. That I didn't do the dishes or cleaned the living room,

> > because I knew it would set him off. That if I had been more perfect

> > I wouldn't have gotten yelled at so much. I am just hurting so very

> > much right now, trying to make sense of everything. I'm not sure

> > there is even a question in this, but I'm like to hear some

> > reactions. Any feedback would be good.

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

My mom. She comes with her own set of guilt. She was the one who

really controlled us (my brother, sister and I). I was in trouble if

I asked a guy out, or if I went to a party that had alcohol at it

(eeven though I didn't drink in high school) or even if I did the

normal things a teenager did. But she was good at being subtle. When

I tried experimenting with makeup she told me I looked like I was

ready to walk the street, but never bothered to show me how to do it.

She has comments about people who wear clothes inappropriate for

their body type, and as a result I wore baggy clothes because I

didn't want anyone to say the say thing about me (plus she would tell

me I didn't have the figure if I wore something she didn't like). She

is sick with a genetic disease that leeaves her in constant pain, but

she wont' ask for help. We are all expected just to read her mind and

do things-or ask what she needs done. She gets upset when we don't

help her. BUt I'm getting sick of trying to read her mind. As far as

my fada, I think she herself is tired of trying to deal with him. She

was goign ot grad school when he really started to escalate, I was

telling her what he was doing for a while. Until she told me that she

couldn't deal with it right then. So I shut up. And she just gets mad

when my siblings and I fought(in my house its whoever yells the

loudest wins)she just said she couldn't stand being in a war zone

anymore. I was confused beecause that's all we knew. My fada really

became unbearable when my parents recently moved, and I asked my mom

why she still stayed with him and she said it was better than the

alternative. I wasn't allowed to say anything because my fada

couldn't deal with hearing it from his daughter. Once I was shut up

to keep the peace. I've read " toxic parents " . That really opened me

up to the fact that I was emotionally abused. It has taken a while to

sink in though, like I am betraying my parents by even thinking that.

Therapy is goign okay, I am getting better with expressing emotions,

and I'm not so scared of expressing them to my friends. I've found

that I have some amazingly supportive people around me. I've been

really surprised at how well they react when I express myself in

a " normal way " . I'm so used to my parents not reacting very well.

My therapist wants to put me in group therapy because I'm struggling

with how to identify my parents. I'm so used to my parents splitting

people that I've had to split them. I'm trying to figure out what to

do with them. They aren't making things easier. But that's for

another post.I've already gone on too long...

I'm wondering, do you become less enmeshed once you are married and

with your own family? I've had to delay my time frame just because of

med school but also because I'm very picky with guys. I'm desperatly

trying NOT to marry my fada.

> I " m back....now, where was your mom? how's your therapy going? I

was in

> therapy for two yrs. and that along with this group really helped

me get

> started on healing. I realize that the damage went pretty deep and

it's

> going to be a while. I'm sure that in med school, you're plenty

busy,

> but reading books like " Emotional Blackmail " , " Codependent No

More " ,

> " toxic Parents " , " Dance of anger " , and " Boundaries " by Cloud and

> Townsend (Christian but not preachy) and " Boundaries " by Anne

> are all good ways toget more normal thought patterns into your

head. I

> also liked " Changes that Heal " by Cloud (another Christian one).

It

> sounds like you are pretty tied to your fada emotionally - they are

very

> good about not letting us separate from them and " grow up " . I was

on

> this list for awhile before I finally felt like a " real grownup " !

And

> I'm in my 40's with 3 kids! Post away! This list can really

validate

> the craziness you went through, because we've been similiar

situations.

> We understand how bad the FOG is ....fear, obligation and guilt.

I'm

> an only child so I was both the good child and the bad child....my

> therapist pointed out to me that my English teacher nada (list term

for

> mother) even changed paragraphs when she would split me from good

to

> bad! I spent 2 yrs not talking to her and would have continued but

we

> moved 2100 miles away and I was worried (she's 89). Now I write to

her,

> but dread her letters back. I've gotten much better though at

forcing

> her out of my head when she writes mean stuff ect., which is

progress.

> Ilene

[Guest guest]

Ilene, you wrote something that really struck a cord.......... and

which has given me much to think about

I still don't think of myself as a " real grownup " , and I'm in my 50s

with 2 grown children! Wow! I've never drunk coffee, or smoked, or

drank, all things " grownups " do. I drank tons of milk every day until

my 30s (like I was taught to do as a child), but I gave it up to reduce

my calorie intake.

I think of my father/mother in-laws (now deceased) as " grownups " , but I

don't see myself that way. It's hard to explain this. I always held my

in-laws in very high regard because they were good rock solid people.

In fact, they became my role models, even before my marriage, I think.

And my dad! Oh my gosh! I see him as a pillar of strength. He's

strong and wise, and who never complains and never has an unkind word to

say about anyone, which drives me crazy when I want to talk to mother.

I'm sure a lot of this is perception, not reality, but I can't seem to

separate it.

As for mother...... that's too complicated to sort out right now. A

long time ago, maybe even 15 years ago, I began to feel ahead of her in

maturity. Even as a teenager, I felt ahead of her on some ways, but I

don't know how to explain it. Even so, I always hung on to her every

word, and I always valued her opinions (politics and religion excluded)

until a decade ago when she started getting weird, but I still hung on.

I realize now how FOGged in I was.

Back to the " grownup " thing, it's difficult to put into words, but I've

never felt like a " grownup " in society. Sure, I know I'm an adult,

especially when I can see so many younger people around me everywhere,

but it goes deeper than what my eyes see. It's more like how I position

myself with others. Perhaps subordination?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm

I have a natural feeling of subordination to.........

solicitors on the phone (I hang up now)

solicitors at the door (I don't answer the door anymore)

clerks in the store

all clergy

police

firefighters

mail carriers

utility meter readers

all elders

teachers

bosses

tellers

The list goes on.........

What is this, anyhow? Maybe it's really not subordination, maybe it's

about boundaries? I don't know!

SmileS!

Carol

Ilene Pedersen wrote:

> I was on this list for awhile before I finally felt like a " real

> grownup " ! And I'm in my 40's with 3 kids!

[Guest guest]

Wow, sounds like your mom has BPD, too! Could she be " waif " ? My nada

said the same thing to me about makeup - I looked like a slut or a

prostitute! - gee it was just some eyeshadow! She went ballistic when

she saw me kiss a boy - then i was a tramp! As my therapist said, she

should have been happy to see I wasn't gay - lol. My nada told me never

judge a book by its cover and then would proceed to judge anybody with

long hair ect. She's always had a problem with weight - not hers but her

sister's and mother's and when my daughter started gaining weight, she

criticised her constantly. You can't win with them. I think that

enmeshment will go on forever, unless you learn to say NO to their

demands and start to live your life. marriage just gives them another

person to complain about - and then your kids become targets. I always

gave in to nada to protect myself and sometimes sacrificed my husband

and kids to do it. It took me forever to realize that I would scream at

them instead of nada. She never faials to put me on edge. I can't live

that way anymore. It took a great therapist to give me permission to

get off the merry-go-round. My nada continues to bring up every slight

in the past and to make it entirely my fault. I have had trouble

getting over my resentment of that and so it's better to keep my

distance. You are smart to recognize your susceptibility to marrying a

man like fada - I really have talked to my kids about how when you marry

someone you marry their family and their past. My oldest two - girls 17

and 15 know what boundaries are and are quick to pick up on

dysfunctional behavior!

I consider it part of my parental vaccination plan - lol....! We had a

discussion last night because some friends are blaming them for their

(the friends' behavior). My daughter said " I made them mad, because I

set up boundaries " and my comment was " Everyone is responsible for their

own reactions - YOU aren't responsible for them being mad, they are! " I

think that sums up one of the most important things I've learned here.

Keep posting - don't worry about it being too long!

Ilene

adoann_ie wrote:

> My mom. She comes with her own set of guilt. She was the one who

> really controlled us (my brother, sister and I). I was in trouble if

> I asked a guy out, or if I went to a party that had alcohol at it

> (eeven though I didn't drink in high school) or even if I did the

> normal things a teenager did. But she was good at being subtle. When

> I tried experimenting with makeup she told me I looked like I was

> ready to walk the street, but never bothered to show me how to do it.

> She has comments about people who wear clothes inappropriate for

> their body type, and as a result I wore baggy clothes because I

> didn't want anyone to say the say thing about me (plus she would tell

> me I didn't have the figure if I wore something she didn't like). She

> is sick with a genetic disease that leeaves her in constant pain, but

> she wont' ask for help. We are all expected just to read her mind and

> do things-or ask what she needs done. She gets upset when we don't

> help her. BUt I'm getting sick of trying to read her mind. As far as

> my fada, I think she herself is tired of trying to deal with him. She

> was goign ot grad school when he really started to escalate, I was

> telling her what he was doing for a while. Until she told me that she

> couldn't deal with it right then. So I shut up. And she just gets mad

> when my siblings and I fought(in my house its whoever yells the

> loudest wins)she just said she couldn't stand being in a war zone

> anymore. I was confused beecause that's all we knew. My fada really

> became unbearable when my parents recently moved, and I asked my mom

> why she still stayed with him and she said it was better than the

> alternative. I wasn't allowed to say anything because my fada

> couldn't deal with hearing it from his daughter. Once I was shut up

> to keep the peace. I've read " toxic parents " . That really opened me

> up to the fact that I was emotionally abused. It has taken a while to

> sink in though, like I am betraying my parents by even thinking that.

>

> Therapy is goign okay, I am getting better with expressing emotions,

> and I'm not so scared of expressing them to my friends. I've found

> that I have some amazingly supportive people around me. I've been

> really surprised at how well they react when I express myself in

> a " normal way " . I'm so used to my parents not reacting very well.

>

> My therapist wants to put me in group therapy because I'm struggling

> with how to identify my parents. I'm so used to my parents splitting

> people that I've had to split them. I'm trying to figure out what to

> do with them. They aren't making things easier. But that's for

> another post.I've already gone on too long...

>

> I'm wondering, do you become less enmeshed once you are married and

> with your own family? I've had to delay my time frame just because of

> med school but also because I'm very picky with guys. I'm desperatly

> trying NOT to marry my fada.

>

>

> > I " m back....now, where was your mom? how's your therapy going? I

> was in

> > therapy for two yrs. and that along with this group really helped

> me get

> > started on healing. I realize that the damage went pretty deep and

> it's

> > going to be a while. I'm sure that in med school, you're plenty

> busy,

> > but reading books like " Emotional Blackmail " , " Codependent No

> More " ,

> > " toxic Parents " , " Dance of anger " , and " Boundaries " by Cloud and

> > Townsend (Christian but not preachy) and " Boundaries " by Anne

>

> > are all good ways toget more normal thought patterns into your

> head. I

> > also liked " Changes that Heal " by Cloud (another Christian one).

> It

> > sounds like you are pretty tied to your fada emotionally - they are

> very

> > good about not letting us separate from them and " grow up " . I was

> on

> > this list for awhile before I finally felt like a " real grownup " !

> And

> > I'm in my 40's with 3 kids! Post away! This list can really

> validate

> > the craziness you went through, because we've been similiar

> situations.

> > We understand how bad the FOG is ....fear, obligation and guilt.

> I'm

> > an only child so I was both the good child and the bad child....my

> > therapist pointed out to me that my English teacher nada (list term

> for

> > mother) even changed paragraphs when she would split me from good

> to

> > bad! I spent 2 yrs not talking to her and would have continued but

> we

> > moved 2100 miles away and I was worried (she's 89). Now I write to

> her,

> > but dread her letters back. I've gotten much better though at

> forcing

> > her out of my head when she writes mean stuff ect., which is

> progress.

> > Ilene

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Anne,

Here is my opinion about group therapy. I had some bad experiences,

because neither the therapist nor any of the other group members

understood anything about BPD. (This was 15 years ago, before anyone

understood much about it.) I found myself invalidated in the group

as well as outside. " What did you do to cause your being treated

like that " ? There was some good support, though.

If the therapist who leads the group understands the effects of BPD

on others, and especially if there is at least one other person in

the group suffering from the same thing, it could be very helpful.

In that case, go for it.

- Dan

[Guest guest]

Marjorie, that sounds logical to me! My nada is very controlling - or

should I say " was " ?! lol

Ilene

ahimsa wrote:

> Carol wrote:

> > I still don't think of myself as a " real grownup " , and I'm in my 50s

> > with 2 grown children! Wow!

>

> I wonder if it depends on what type of BPD mother you had? My mother

> was all 4 types, but the waif and hermit were prominent. The queen

> mostly stayed quiet unless money was involved. Of course, the witch

> appeared regularly, but it appeared in shorter spurts than waif/hermit.

>

> Anyway, her waif and hermit behavior, along with many periods of

> depression where she stayed in a darkened room for days or weeks at a

> time, meant that all of us kids had to fend for ourselves at a very

> early age. Consequently, by the time I was 15 or 16 I pretty much

> felt like an adult. (I'm 42 now, by the way)

>

> Obviously, I continued to mature as the years passed. I wasn't really

> an adult at 15! But I've never felt as you do that I wasn't a " real

> grownup. " In fact, when I went to college at 17 I felt like most of

> the people around me were so immature, wanting their parents to do

> their laundry, or send care packages, or pay for their expenses, stuff

> like that. I admit now that a lot of it was arrogance on my part--a

> way for me to feel I was better than they were, and maybe even some

> sour grapes since I didn't have a mother like they did--but still,

> it was true that I was used to doing all this stuff for myself. They

> were going through a huge adjustment, sometimes even homesickness.

> All I could feel was the joy of being away from my mother and the

> freedom of being able to take care of myself (which I was doing

> anyway) without being yelled at all the time.

>

> So, was your mother more controlling and " queen " like? Would that type

> of environment make the children more likely to feel like they should

> defer to authority? My own mother was a passive and neglectful so it

> had the opposite effect: independence at a very early age (which has

> both good and bad aspects--e.g., I pushed people away for a while).

>

> Just a wild theory.

>

> Marjorie in Oregon

> ahimsa@...

>

> Free your books! See books I've set free at:

> http://bookcrossing.com/referral/ahimsa

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks for a very insightful response, Marjorie! I'm really stuck with

my fingers in my mouth here, because I just don't know how to put this

stuff into words, but I'll keep trying. I'll insert comments to your

response........

Marjorie " ahimsa " wrote:

> I wonder if it depends on what type of BPD mother you had?

Maybe it does.

> My mother was all 4 types, but the waif and hermit were prominent.

> The queen mostly stayed quiet unless money was involved. Of course,

> the witch appeared regularly, but it appeared in shorter spurts

> than waif/hermit.

>

> Anyway, her waif and hermit behavior, along with many periods of

> depression where she stayed in a darkened room for days or weeks at a

> time, meant that all of us kids had to fend for ourselves at a very

> early age.

The more I think about it, the more I wonder if she did suffer from

depression, but it was a steady every-day " down " feeling, or maybe just

a general feeling of unhappiness with no ups and downs.

> Consequently, by the time I was 15 or 16 I pretty much felt like

> an adult. (I'm 42 now, by the way) I felt like a kid at that age.

> Obviously, I continued to mature as the years passed. I wasn't

> really an adult at 15! But I've never felt as you do that I wasn't

> a " real grownup. "

> In fact, when I went to college at 17 I felt like most of the

> people around me were so immature, wanting their parents to do

> their laundry, or send care packages, or pay for their expenses,

> stuff like that.

Yes, I remember when I was a senior in high school, everyone was so

childish, especially the boys. I always preferred to date older boys

because they were more mature. However, I rarely dated. Let's see,

before my marriage at 20, I dated a total of 5 boys, including my

husband. Quite a track record, huh? I felt un-grownup interacting with

people, any and all people, even my peers. When I had to register for

junior college, I couldn't fathom the thought of facing all the

administrators there. When I told mother, she was only too happy to go

with me, and I was only to eager to let her, except for one problem.

I'd be too embarrassed to have mother with me, so I faced the ugly

ordeal alone, and I survived to tell the story! This fear was so bad, I

wouldn't even call a store to find out their hours. I've come a long

long way since those days, but it still lurks in the deep recesses of my

being, even today.

> So, was your mother more controlling and " queen " like?

Mother was controlling all right, but it was very subtle. She

desperately needed to be needed, to the point of total dependence, like

a baby to its mother. I was an extension to herSelf, and as long as I

danced to her music, she showered me with the approval I lived and

craved for.

She wasn't queen-like at all. She fit some of the " witch " stuff, and a

little of the " hermit " stuff too, but in old age, she assumed a lot of

the " waif " characteristics. She is/was a composite.

> Would that type of environment make the children more likely to

By the age of 16, mother was still very central to my life, to my very

existence. Without her, I was nothing. I had few friends, I seldom

dated, I diligently did my homework, I hung around the house, she picked

out my clothes, and she called all the shots. She used to say she was

very reasonable and understanding, and she was, because I did nothing to

go against the grain. Then I turned 17, and I began dating my future

husband, and I changed to his religion. Mother flipped her wig, but I

stuck to my guns. It was at that point I felt wiser and more mature

than she, but then, don't we all think that at that age? However, I WAS

right. Mother just didn't get it, so I put her on ignore, and did she

ever boil, and did she ever make my life miserable. After I got

married, she immediately accepted me as an equal, as an adult. It was

great, and we became immediate friends, even sisters. The next 15 years

were the best years she and I had, despite living far apart due to our

military life.

> My own mother was a passive and neglectful so it had the

> opposite effect: independence at a very early age (which has

> both good and bad aspects--e.g., I pushed people away for a

> while).

Mother doted and coddled. Actually, I think mother had a difficult time

with motherhood in many ways. Sure, she filled the role all right, but

when my brother was born, she couldn't cope with him, and g'ma took him

a lot. Mother once told me she and dad were fine until I was about 1

year old, then dad started to get jealous of the time she spent with

me! [read: I caused their marital problems]. She couldn't blame

herself for the problems, oh no! It was all dad's fault, and she

eventually left him permanently when I was 8. That enabled her to hand

over the maternal role to her own mother, who lived with us and was

totally dependent on mother for her survival. This was the 50s when few

women worked, divorce was not looked upon favorably, and women's

salaries were inadequate to support a family with.

> Just a wild theory.

A great theory! I love it!

Carol wrote:

> I still don't think of myself as a " real grownup " , and I'm in my 50s

> with 2 grown children! Wow!

[Guest guest]

OK - any words from the broader group? There has to be a wayyyy???

 

Thank the diety of your choice you posted this. 18 months on and have hovered around the same weight for the last twelve of them.

I feel like a complete failure. I haven't even bothered going back to my surgeon in the last five months.

I have never had any real restriction and when I do get a little just after an adjustment it only lasts a couple of weeks.

It's just not working and hearing about other people's success makes me want to scream. I can't even look at Mikey Robbins.

I feel like I've got the wrong size band or it's positioned to low or something else is wrong. I have now given up trying.

Shells