Re: All-good vs. all-bad children

[Guest guest]

Malene,

What you say about the freedom of being the " all-bad " kid is very

true for me. One thing that is different for me is that my mother

seemed to love me, excessively and smotheringly, until I was 3 years

old at which time I became all bad, because I started to say " no " and

because I could not rescue her from her depression and suicidal

feelings. So I knew what love was, and what was being denied to me.

I retreated into my fantasy that if I were crippled, one-legged, I

would be OK and I wouldn't have to be all-bad any more. Now, as I

work through these issues, that deep-seated identity takes on such a

power that a lot of the time I can see surgery as the only way to

become truly free. It isn't logical but it is me.

- Dan

[Guest guest]

Ellie,

I think it is true that a person who has experienced some love and

then becomes all bad is at risk to develop BPD. A kid who was always

all-bad will see the need to find love elsewhere, or will develop

some other mental illness.

Rebellion was my only salvation, but it was the most horrible thing I

could do in the eyes of my mother and I always felt horribly guilty

about it. I believe that my amputee identity " disorder " may be the

only thing that saved me from developing BPD. If eventually I can

only improve my stress about that by surgical means, it will be

relatively a small price to pay.

I think that mothers with BPD are much more destructive than fathers,

because they are the primary care-giver, especially when we a very

young and most vulnerable.

- Dan

[Guest guest]

--- Dan wrote:

---------------------------------

Ellie,

I think it is true that a person who has experienced

some love and then becomes all bad is at risk to

develop BPD. A kid who was always all-bad will see

the need to find love elsewhere, or will develop

some other mental illness.

Rebellion was my only salvation, but it was the most

horrible thing I could do in the eyes of my mother and

I always felt horribly guilty about it. I believe

that my amputee identity " disorder " may be the only

thing that saved me from developing BPD. If

eventually I can only improve my stress about that by

surgical means, it will be relatively a small price to

pay.

I think that mothers with BPD are much more

destructive than fathers, because they are the primary

care-giver, especially when we a very young and most

vulnerable.

- Dan

.......................................................

Hi Dan

I believe you are right there. If fathers are not

around very much, then the children might be saved.

Today, my daughter saw her father (Sunday). Usually

the children try to see him together, because it is

easier on them, but today my middle boy was working.

My older son sees very little of his father.

My daughter came home and had to spill out what he had

heaped on her once again about me, and my morals. " I

have been told by your mother's friends just what she

gets up to " That sort of stuff is pretty much to be

expected. He would always try to undermine me, and any

friendships - always driving wedges in where he could.

He accused me most of my married life of having

affairs.

These comments come from a BPD who has a smear

campaign continuing on after 3 years of my not

speaking to him at all ( & two domestic violence

orders.) He has had contempt charges brought against

me (and defamation)for supposedly trying to ruin his

good name, and bring doubt on his integrity (his words

not mine).

In the few hours that he has seen the children over

the past 3 1/2 years, he has played all of the BPD

games, raged at them, gone from black to white, played

them off against each other. I have witnessed my 20 &

22 year old sons crying in pain at his treatment of

them. Two of them are depressed, and one is being

treated for depression.

My daughter gets beside herself after one of her BPD

father's many attacks. As in my marriage, you can

ALWAYS be sure that when there is calm, when you

finally think peace might stay for a while, it is a

sure sign that he will erupt again. If this is what a

BPDmother does to her children when they are in her

care, I shudder at the terrible psychological scars

that children must carry forever. I understand to a

degree of your suffering. As an adult I am scarred and

I will never be the same again after 25 years in his

concentration camp. Children are so vulnerable, and I

feel everything he does to mine. I can't forgive him

for what he has done. I will not be bitter, but to

knowingly destroy me, and now try to get at the

children in the same way as his mother did, I am left

speechless.

This has gone on so much longer than I had expected

to, but there is so much to say, and I do feel for all

of you, all of the little KO's who still have a

tortured child living in their adult bodies.

hugs

Ellie

http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile

- Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone mobile.

[Guest guest]

--- Dan wrote:

---------------------------------

Malene,

What you say about the freedom of being the " all-bad "

kid is very

true for me. One thing that is different for me is

that my mother

seemed to love me, excessively and smotheringly, until

I was 3 years

old at which time I became all bad, because I started

to say " no " and

because I could not rescue her from her depression and

suicidal

feelings. So I knew what love was, and what was being

denied to me.

I retreated into my fantasy that if I were crippled,

one-legged, I

would be OK and I wouldn't have to be all-bad any

more. Now, as I

work through these issues, that deep-seated identity

takes on such a

power that a lot of the time I can see surgery as the

only way to

become truly free. It isn't logical but it is me.

- Dan

...................................................

Oh Dan................

I work with disabled people - profoundly physically

and intellectually disabled.

To think you are so psychologically scarred that

sugery could be the answer oh Dan, my heart reaches

out to you, wish I could soothe some of your pain.

Just a little at a time, and heal your hurt. Keep your

physical distance. I wonder if some voluntary work

might help. Where I work we have volunteers, and they

can become a special friend to one of our patients, or

help with activities. It is such a wonderful place. I

count my blessings every day.

It's just a thought. I have seen so much sadness in

our volunteer workers turn their spirits upwards.

Ellie

http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile

- Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone mobile.

[Guest guest]

Hi Malene-

My nada used the term " bad seed " . My sister was the bad seed during our young

childhood because I was her confidante (makes me want to puke how I would beg

her forgiveness for any normal childhood transgression)- I quickly became the

bad seed in adolescence.... and especially when I fled the home. It really

pissed her off that I went knocking on the door of a deputy sheriff and asked

him to help me (which he did). Had I just run away, I would have been considered

a delinquent back then. She would have LOVED that- it would have been so

validating (BAD, BAD SEED!!!).

Oh brother- so much dirty nada water under the bridge!

Good luck and take care,

Christy

All-good vs. all-bad children

Hey List,

I was working my way through the descriptions of " all-good " vs. " all-bad "

children within the borderline mom's domain. A few things really struck me in

those descriptions as I write about how this pertains to me.

First of all, as the only child I have had long periods of being " all-good "

and long periods of being " all-bad " . The book says that " all-bad " children of

borderline mothers are virtually destined to develop BPD themselves.

Personally I see this as hogwash. One of the reasons I see this as hogwash is

remembering my own descent from being " all-good " as a child, to being

" all-bad " as a teenager. My trying to express my individuality away from my

mom was so doomed from teh beginning, and predictably enough I became big

time " all-bad " . Being " all-bad " was indescribably painful and so full of

emotional abuse I cant put words to it, and i believe it is the only time i

have ever seen the " witch " in my mom, atleast when the witch was directed

towards me. However, painful as it was it also felt like a big relief in a

way.

I had sacrificed my true self, and seen others sacrificed as my mom's

confidante for so many years. As the " all-bad " child I did not have to make

these sacrifices. I did not have to pretend to be anything I was not. I did

not have to sit silently by while my mom attacked others. I did not have to

allow my mom to fit me into that horrible, fake, strange " perfect " role I had

played for so long. It felt almost like escaping from a prison.

Maybe it was easier for me because I did not experience this as a small

dependant child, although I remember strange fragments of some of the same

things happening when I was individuating from my mom at around 2-3 years

old. Yet, it strikes me that the " all-bad " child has the opportunity to be

truer to themselves and others than teh " all-good " child has. This could be a

bonus as an " all-bad " child.

What do you guys think?

Thanks

Malene

[Guest guest]

Colleen Burns wrote:

> HI Malene,

>

> My two cents. “all good” was a nightmare of childhood and adolescent abuse.

> “all bad” was a nightmare of childhood and adolescent abuse. Two sides of

> the same coin. Both horrific.

>

> Colleen

I agree with Colleen but I think its easier for the " all bad " KO to

eventually walk away.

In our case (ie, my older sister and I, with a BPD/NPD mother) the

'witch' made her appearance on a daily basis. My " all bad " sister

refused to attend our nada's funeral. I went cuz I wanted to make darn

sure she was really gone.

- Edith

A nightmare by any other name is still a nightmare.

___________

>

> All-good vs. all-bad children

>

> Hey List,

>

>

> I was working my way through the descriptions of " all-good " vs. " all-bad "

> children within the borderline mom's domain. A few things really struck me

> in those descriptions as I write about how this pertains to me.

>

> First of all, as the only child I have had long periods of being " all-good "

> and long periods of being " all-bad " . The book says that " all-bad " children

> of borderline mothers are virtually destined to develop BPD themselves.

> Personally I see this as hogwash. One of the reasons I see this as hogwash

> is remembering my own descent from being " all-good " as a child, to being

> " all-bad " as a teenager. My trying to express my individuality away from my

> mom was so doomed from teh beginning, and predictably enough I became big

> time " all-bad " . Being " all-bad " was indescribably painful and so full of

> emotional abuse I cant put words to it, and i believe it is the only time i

> have ever seen the " witch " in my mom, atleast when the witch was directed

> towards me. However, painful as it was it also felt like a big relief in a

> way.

>

> I had sacrificed my true self, and seen others sacrificed as my mom's

> confidante for so many years. As the " all-bad " child I did not have to make

> these sacrifices. I did not have to pretend to be anything I was not. I did

> not have to sit silently by while my mom attacked others. I did not have to

> allow my mom to fit me into that horrible, fake, strange " perfect " role I

> had played for so long. It felt almost like escaping from a prison.

>

> Maybe it was easier for me because I did not experience this as a small

> dependant child, although I remember strange fragments of some of the same

> things happening when I was individuating from my mom at around 2-3 years

> old. Yet, it strikes me that the " all-bad " child has the opportunity to be

> truer to themselves and others than teh " all-good " child has. This could be

> a bonus as an " all-bad " child.

>

> What do you guys think?

>

> Thanks

> Malene

>

[Guest guest]

HI Malene,

My two cents. “all good” was a nightmare of childhood and adolescent abuse.

“all bad” was a nightmare of childhood and adolescent abuse. Two sides of

the same coin. Both horrific.

Colleen

All-good vs. all-bad children

Hey List,

I was working my way through the descriptions of " all-good " vs. " all-bad "

children within the borderline mom's domain. A few things really struck me

in

those descriptions as I write about how this pertains to me.

First of all, as the only child I have had long periods of being " all-good "

and long periods of being " all-bad " . The book says that " all-bad " children

of

borderline mothers are virtually destined to develop BPD themselves.

Personally I see this as hogwash. One of the reasons I see this as hogwash

is

remembering my own descent from being " all-good " as a child, to being

" all-bad " as a teenager. My trying to express my individuality away from my

mom was so doomed from teh beginning, and predictably enough I became big

time " all-bad " . Being " all-bad " was indescribably painful and so full of

emotional abuse I cant put words to it, and i believe it is the only time i

have ever seen the " witch " in my mom, atleast when the witch was directed

towards me. However, painful as it was it also felt like a big relief in a

way.

I had sacrificed my true self, and seen others sacrificed as my mom's

confidante for so many years. As the " all-bad " child I did not have to make

these sacrifices. I did not have to pretend to be anything I was not. I did

not have to sit silently by while my mom attacked others. I did not have to

allow my mom to fit me into that horrible, fake, strange " perfect " role I

had

played for so long. It felt almost like escaping from a prison.

Maybe it was easier for me because I did not experience this as a small

dependant child, although I remember strange fragments of some of the same

things happening when I was individuating from my mom at around 2-3 years

old. Yet, it strikes me that the " all-bad " child has the opportunity to be

truer to themselves and others than teh " all-good " child has. This could be

a

bonus as an " all-bad " child.

What do you guys think?

Thanks

Malene

[Guest guest]

My brother who was all bad has walked away and doesn't feel any guilt. My

sister and I who were all good are still stuck feeling we are responsible

for our BP mother.

All-good vs. all-bad children

> >

> > Hey List,

> >

> >

> > I was working my way through the descriptions of " all-good " vs.

" all-bad "

> > children within the borderline mom's domain. A few things really struck

me

> > in those descriptions as I write about how this pertains to me.

> >

> > First of all, as the only child I have had long periods of being

" all-good "

> > and long periods of being " all-bad " . The book says that " all-bad "

children

> > of borderline mothers are virtually destined to develop BPD themselves.

> > Personally I see this as hogwash. One of the reasons I see this as

hogwash

> > is remembering my own descent from being " all-good " as a child, to being

> > " all-bad " as a teenager. My trying to express my individuality away from

my

> > mom was so doomed from teh beginning, and predictably enough I became

big

> > time " all-bad " . Being " all-bad " was indescribably painful and so full of

> > emotional abuse I cant put words to it, and i believe it is the only

time i

> > have ever seen the " witch " in my mom, atleast when the witch was

directed

> > towards me. However, painful as it was it also felt like a big relief in

a

> > way.

> >

> > I had sacrificed my true self, and seen others sacrificed as my mom's

> > confidante for so many years. As the " all-bad " child I did not have to

make

> > these sacrifices. I did not have to pretend to be anything I was not. I

did

> > not have to sit silently by while my mom attacked others. I did not have

to

> > allow my mom to fit me into that horrible, fake, strange " perfect " role

I

> > had played for so long. It felt almost like escaping from a prison.

> >

> > Maybe it was easier for me because I did not experience this as a small

> > dependant child, although I remember strange fragments of some of the

same

> > things happening when I was individuating from my mom at around 2-3

years

> > old. Yet, it strikes me that the " all-bad " child has the opportunity to

be

> > truer to themselves and others than teh " all-good " child has. This could

be

> > a bonus as an " all-bad " child.

> >

> > What do you guys think?

> >

> > Thanks

> > Malene

> >

>

>

>

> To get off the list, send a blank message to

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ModOasis-owner . & quot;Stop Walking on Eggshells, & quot; a

primer for non-BPs can be ordered via 1-888-35-SHELL (). For the

table of contents, see http://www.BPDCentral.com

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yup! That's exactly how it was with me too. Except, my all-bad

brother's legacy is alcoholism and mental issues. The worst of my

legacy was guilt, which I've mostly gotten over by now. I'm not

alcoholic, nor do I don't have BPD, so in the overall scheme of things,

I got the better deal. It's very doubtful if my brother will ever get

over HIS legacy.

SmileS!

Carol

hnjstaff@... wrote:

> My brother who was all bad has walked away and doesn't feel any

> guilt. My sister and I who were all good are still stuck feeling

> we are responsible for our BP mother.

" Edith " wrote:

> I agree with Colleen but I think its easier for the " all bad " KO

> to eventually walk away.

Colleen wrote:

> My two cents. “all good” was a nightmare of childhood and

> adolescent abuse. “all bad” was a nightmare of childhood and

> adolescent abuse. Two sides of the same coin. Both horrific.

[Guest guest]

My sister and I were sometimes lumped together as if we were

one " thing " instead of one bad, one good. That's how it is right

now, we are " bad daughters. " If one of us were in contact with nada,

that one would be " all good " again I'm sure.

Growing up though, it seemed like I was more often the " all good "

one. We did trade off and on all the time though. Nada could go

through several different " splits " in the same day.

My sister seemed to have much less trouble lying to nada than I did.

I don't think I even knew I COULD lie to her. I learned to

appreciate the freedom of being all bad eventually, and even began to

resent being " all good. " Too much responsibility and I hated

being " on her side. " yuck.

Now I'm quite content to be all bad. It's like being let out of a

cage, of course, this time I sort of broke out of the cage rather

than being thrown out of it. Even better!

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/12/03 11:24:02 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

missusgee@... writes:

Congratulations for your personal strength in taking care of yourself and

your children. I am so sorry for the abuse you endured. I wish it could be

different.

Warm regards

Malene

> > I was the all bad child. I walked away. I remember seriously

> sitting down as a child and knowing I would walk away. And I did.

> However, my siblings think I am ill because they don't understand how

> I could have just walked away. They think I am suffering without a

> mother. No mother is better than the abuse I endured. I am seven

> years into therapy and although I have traits of the " waif " bpd...i

> work daily to manage them...for the sake of my own children. My

> mother was a raging Queen and Witch BPD and no one could save me,

> except myself. And I did.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> I was the all bad child. I walked away. I remember seriously

sitting down as a child and knowing I would walk away. And I did.

However, my siblings think I am ill because they don't understand how

I could have just walked away. They think I am suffering without a

mother. No mother is better than the abuse I endured. I am seven

years into therapy and although I have traits of the " waif " bpd...i

work daily to manage them...for the sake of my own children. My

mother was a raging Queen and Witch BPD and no one could save me,

except myself. And I did.