Re: Audio DNA, was practitioners

[Guest guest]

><http://heal-me.com.au/ao-ian.htm>http<http://heal-me.com.au/ao-ian.htm>://heal\

-me.com.au/ao-ian.htm

>I've seen a client experienced an emotional and mental unwinding using the

>DNA Prime frequencies listed in the above link which Dr MacLeod has shared

>from his research.

Ken, can you please ask " Dr. MacLeod " by what mechanism audio

frequencies massage DNA coils as stated in the above link. IMO this

cannot be due to induced resonance since the residual energy from the

DNA fundamental would be far too low. And, once _within_ the body, it

gets even worse. There are too many competing factors.

The sooner we put this audio-DNA thing aside, the sooner attention

can be directed to why audio frequencies actually work. Certainly, as

we know from the past, effective ones are not exclusive to

mathematical relationships to DNA.

Consider this analogy. I pick a bunch of grapes, each measuring 20mm

in diameter. I make wine, drink it and fall over. Do I then claim

falling has an inherent relationship to 20mm? Or, that I cannot be

made to fall by any of a hundred unrelated means. There is similarly

no plausible link, yet presented, between DNA and the effects

reported. Neither are they specific to DNA.

With all due respect, it seems to me the only persons promoting this

type of thinking are those with something to sell. It sounds great,

but is it good science? I suspect you could get similar results by

chanting mantras. If anyone feels I am being unfair, then you are

more than welcome to prove me wrong.

BTW, Ken, can you tell me what is the current output of your

Audiopathy AO-1device under normal load?

Nielsen

[Guest guest]

,

There is no question that pulsed EM fields will cause responses

within DNA. This includes up and down regulation of genes. Further,

the literature is full of papers on the effects of specific

frequencies on specific genes. VEGF is inactivated by 120 Hz and

mutant P-53 is downregulated by 50 Hz for example. The effects of

these specific frequencies , and their ability to inhibit cancer

growth due to genetic effects has been proven scientifically. These

are just two instances having to do with audio level PEMF's

influencing specific genes. There are many , many more, in the

published literature.

The sooner specific frequency effects of PEMF on DNA and genes are

investigated, developed, and utilized, the sooner a lot of

genetically linked diseases will come under control. Char's theorem

works, I've used it, there have been dozens of reports of success

with it. There does need to be what are called " Electromagnetic

Response Elements " within the gene. At least one ERE has been

identified - a specific sequence of base pairs. This was patented a

as a method patent a few years ago by Columbia University.

Linkage of PEMF to cellular process is primarily Electrokinetic.

Some of electrokinetic mechanisms are

Electro Conformational Coupling

Electronic Sonic Amplitude

Ion Vibration Potential

Colloid Vibration Potential

Electroacoustics

The above list offers just a few examples, there are other mechanisms

having to do with coupling of PEMF's to cellular processes.

Jim Bare

>The sooner we put this audio-DNA thing aside, the sooner attention

>can be directed to why audio frequencies actually work. Certainly, as

>we know from the past, effective ones are not exclusive to

>mathematical relationships to DNA.

[Guest guest]

Thanks for your reply Jim. However, this is the second time you

responded to my comments along these lines by pointing out that audio

frequencies DO affect DNA. I _never_ said they didn't, and I never

said the effects could not be frequency specific. Please give me some credit.

I am already aware of the literature you cite. The frequencies tested

were not derived a priori from DNA, Char's theorem, or anything

resembling it. For example, alot of work has been done with 50 and

60Hz (60 x 2 = 120) simply because they are powerline frequencies

with suspected health implications. For all we know, other untested

frequencies may produce the same effect.

As far as I am concerned, the issue I have been raising remains

unaddressed. This is the claimed RESONANCE in vivo for distant

subharmonics of DNA frequencies ... or similarly distant subharmonics

of anything, for that matter. If you, or anyone else, can find a peer

reviewed paper that demonstrates this in action, I will be most

impressed. Until then, I do not believe any claims to this effect are

justified.

It is not good enough to say, " I got this frequency from DNA, and it

does this in some cases " . How is the effect related to the function

of DNA in that disorder? Do we know the same effect cannot be

produced with other frequencies mathematically unrelated to DNA? And so on.

I will conclude by saying, I have no doubt audio frequencies in

general produce a range of biological effects. What I do question, in

the absence of proof, is DNA resonance has anything to do with it.

There is simply not enough available energy at the fundamental.

Nielsen

>There is no question that pulsed EM fields will cause responses

>within DNA. This includes up and down regulation of genes. Further,

>the literature is full of papers on the effects of specific

>frequencies on specific genes. VEGF is inactivated by 120 Hz and

>mutant P-53 is downregulated by 50 Hz for example. The effects of

>these specific frequencies, and their ability to inhibit cancer

>growth due to genetic effects has been proven scientifically. These

>are just two instances having to do with audio level PEMF's

>influencing specific genes. There are many, many more, in the

>published literature.

[Guest guest]

,

No harm meant.

Some of us feel that there is a great untapped potential in the use

of specific frequencies to control genes. Specificity of influence

based upon frequency may be at the least considered as a form of

entrainment, or if conditions permit coherence. Both of these lead to

an increase in energy of the system which is a form of resonance.

This increase of energy is used to create physiological effects - and

this includes effects at the DNA level.

Do subharmonics produce effects ? That is a big question. There are

other methods of frequency calculation - Ion Paramagnetic Resonance

for example.

For all we know, other untested

>frequencies may produce the same effect.

A speculation, and thus one might ask ....Effects such as? In the

Ion Paramagnetic method, a paper exists that calculated the

frequency for Zn (zinc) . Zn is located within the P53 protein. Use

of 20 Hz, the calculated frequency, resulted in tumor growth

inhibition. The authors admit, perhaps another effect was at work,

but they hypothesized that 20 Hz would inhibit cancer growth in P53

expressing tumors, and it did.

I've used Char's method for some years now, with mixed success. Which

is better than no success at all. An opportunity exists via the use

of her theorem to advance the use of frequency devices significantly.

You believe the use of subharmonics is not a viable method. That is

unfortunate, for although it does not work 100% of the time. the use

of DNA derived subharmonic frequencies often creates desirable

treatment outcomes.

Jim Bare

[Guest guest]

Jim,

your explanation seems to apply both to the pad and to

the plasma machines...

may i ask what kind of role do you think the light

plays in the process? (I mean the light of plasma).

--- Bare ha

scritto:

> ,

>

> There is no question that pulsed EM fields will

> cause responses

> within DNA. This includes up and down regulation of

> genes. Further,

> the literature is full of papers on the effects of

> specific

> frequencies on specific genes. VEGF is inactivated

> by 120 Hz and

> mutant P-53 is downregulated by 50 Hz for example.

> The effects of

> these specific frequencies , and their ability to

> inhibit cancer

> growth due to genetic effects has been proven

> scientifically. These

> are just two instances having to do with audio level

> PEMF's

> influencing specific genes. There are many , many

> more, in the

> published literature.

>

> The sooner specific frequency effects of PEMF on DNA

> and genes are

> investigated, developed, and utilized, the sooner a

> lot of

> genetically linked diseases will come under control.

> Char's theorem

> works, I've used it, there have been dozens of

> reports of success

> with it. There does need to be what are called "

> Electromagnetic

> Response Elements " within the gene. At least one ERE

> has been

> identified - a specific sequence of base pairs. This

> was patented a

> as a method patent a few years ago by Columbia

> University.

>

> Linkage of PEMF to cellular process is primarily

> Electrokinetic.

> Some of electrokinetic mechanisms are

> Electro Conformational Coupling

> Electronic Sonic Amplitude

> Ion Vibration Potential

> Colloid Vibration Potential

> Electroacoustics

>

> The above list offers just a few examples, there are

> other mechanisms

> having to do with coupling of PEMF's to cellular

> processes.

>

> Jim Bare

>

>

> >The sooner we put this audio-DNA thing aside, the

> sooner attention

> >can be directed to why audio frequencies actually

> work. Certainly, as

> >we know from the past, effective ones are not

> exclusive to

> >mathematical relationships to DNA.

>

>

___________________________________

L'email della prossima generazione? Puoi averla con la nuova Yahoo! Mail:

http://it.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html

[Guest guest]

,

A good question - the tube is just more than a source of light, it is

also an electronic mixer. As a mixer it will create Harmonics as well

as Sub harmonics of the input frequencies. The effect can be quite

dramatic, a Rife/Bare system will input a 27.125 MHz carrier

frequency into the tube - and the tube will create subharmonics of

that carrier frequency that extend below 800 Khz! The newly created

harmonics and subharmonics of the carrier, all possess modulated side

bands with harmonics of the treatment frequency. All the created

frequencies are in some way inter related - and thus have a form of

coherence. It also seems their phase is all the same - harmonically

related frequencies with identical phases may have the ability to

undergo a summation of their energies ( A Fourier Transform? ) via

constructive interference.

As for the light - the tube is actually being turned on and off at

the applied treatment frequency. At 2000 Hz, the tube turns on and

off 2000 times a second ! There is an electrokinetic effect that may

apply called the " photoacoustic " effect. Discovered in the late

1800's by Graham Bell, the photoacoustic effect is where a

pulsed light will create an audio wave on the surface of an object.

The audio wave has the same frequency as the pulse rate of the light.

If this applies, this is just one attribute of the light.

Externally applied Light of specific wavelengths plays a part in

regulating natural body rhythms, relief of pain, hormone

formation, and many other physiologic effects.

Jim Bare

>may i ask what kind of role do you think the light

>plays in the process? (I mean the light of plasma).

>

>--

[Guest guest]

>>I do not know how one would

>> " prove " the DNA is being stimulated and massaged (snip).

>

> That's exactly my point Ken. Why keep using the moniker when there is

> absolutely no proof? It's like a rehash of the old " quantum " sales

> pitch. The skeptics loved that one. Most everything else in your post

> I agree with. I think we all have the best interests of Rife

> technology at heart. But I feel we are still skirting the DNA claim

> issue. In the interests of clarity, it should be qualified or

> retracted. I am not questioning the efficacy of Ian's protocols or

> other audio signals per se. Enough said.

Surley there would be biological markers that change that a good researcher

would look for when testing theory?

A change in the cells proteins would also be a good indicator of

application.

Gosh, and then we have literally thousands of receptors and effectors on the

cells wall that also could receive benefit of function via frequency

therapy. For all we know, we could be repairing the whole body's cellular

functions with our technology.

>

>> From my contact with Ian and his colleagues, he is no scammer, and from

>> the

>>results of his program, then this speaks well to me.

>

> Excuse me for asking, but, aside from emails, what contact have you

> had? I also had some exchanges, ostensibly from him, and the story I

> got was quite different. It was also inconsistent, and most of what

> he promised to this list, including the international seminar in

> China, did not eventuate. All we got were a couple of frequency sets

> that anyone could have made an educated try at. Not a good look. A

> few others expressed the same to me off-list. In short, Dr. Ian may

> be an unsung hero, but IMO, aside from your mutual endorsement, he

> has a self-induced credibility problem.

There have been telephone conversions and electronic materials exchanged via

post, and also with other collegues of his in other countries who are

researching his work. You want to give his program a try, for weak sine

waves via hand helds, it sure does help people. No doubt there is good

placebo in effect here too.

> Thank you for the particulars on your Audiopathy device. Perhaps we

> can go into them further on another occasion.

>

> Nielsen

Well, for people testing out his frequency program, there is a good

different of a healing response between a pulsed DC signal and a AC signal.

Nothing too exciting happened with AC, but it was a different experience

with DC. You can have someone who has a terrible time with tooth pain and

cavities, and it goes very quickly and the decay seems to reverse, waiting

for a friend to visit his dentist for verification.

Another friend with 30+ years Lyme, has working adrenals again, and reduced

his medication from 60mg's to 5mg's ... Ian did say over time, it will

regenerate organs, so this shouldn't be hard to prove or disprove, I'm sure

I am already seeing it. We haven't had too much of this sort of good news

with most of our Rife type applications. Understandably, it is not Rife

practice, but it still makes a good topic to talk about.

I understand Ian doesn't have the best bedside manner, but it is a bit like

that popular US TV show, House, in the end it gets the job done, and there

are probably a few mistakes made along the way.

Regards

Ken

[Guest guest]

Jim & ;

Are either of you familiar with Abreham Liboff's work with Ion

Cyclotron Resonance? Has extensive theory behind it and peer

reviewed. Works with 1-100 hertz magnetic effects, adjusted by, I

assume Schumann frequency at the specific physical location on the

earth. It has demonstrated effects at the cellular level, but not

sure about DNA level. He is/was a close colleague of Beckers and has

taken the work that Becker, Bassett(sp?) and others did back then down

this path. Becker wrote a nice piece on ICR in Cross Currents.

Anyway,just exploring if you are familiar and how it fits with this

discussion.

Thanks

Noel de ?

[Guest guest]

>Are either of you familiar with Abreham Liboff's work with Ion

>Cyclotron Resonance? Has extensive theory behind it and peer

>reviewed. Works with 1-100 hertz magnetic effects, adjusted by, I

>assume Schumann frequency at the specific physical location on the

>earth. It has demonstrated effects at the cellular level, but not

>sure about DNA level.

Liboff demonstrated enhanced DNA synthesis using audio EMF's. He

attributes this to structural changes, not resonance per se. I might

add this was a cell-free system, eg. outside a living body. Far less

complex than therapy. It is possible what is being affected is the

supercoiling of the DNA. This is the compacting mechanism that allows

it to fit within a cell. Rather than resonating, think of it as a

coil spring that can be worked by impinging forces. Or inductively

charged. That was Lakhovsky's premise.

http://altered-states.net/barry/Lakhovsky/index.htm

The cyclotron resonant frequency for any given element is moderated

by ambient magnetic field strength. The latter varies geographically,

as shown on this map of the continental USA.

http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/1999/ofr-99-0557/html/magnetic.jpg

So, even when the same protocol is used on different subjects, the

results may vary unless the frequency is recalculated for where they

live. That is assuming cyclotron resonance is a factor.

Nielsen

[Guest guest]

Noel,

Application of Cyclotron Resonance has been a subject of bioelectric

research for a good decade.

One can find quite a few papers on this topic at

http://www.emf-portal.org Just type in the word

" Cyclotron " in the search blank. Be certain to change the place to

search from glossary to publications!

The paper by Steele is interesting for example - proposes a mechanism

for DNA production of biophotons from applied magnetic and electric

fields of specific frequencies. " Electromagnetic field generation by

ATP-induced reverse electron transfer. "

If you want to see links to other papers discussing Resonance - just

use Resonance for a search term. About 940 papers will come up.

Something else to consider - Any frequency generating system that

produces magnetic field may be able to create cyclotron resonance

effects based upon measurement of the magnetic field strength at a

unique treatment distance.

Here is a web page where one can calculate cyclotron resonances.

http://amstersgi.chem.uga.edu/html/fticr_calculator.html

Here is another type of Resonance Calculator that will create the

Larmor Resonance Frequency.

http://nmrservices.com/periodic_table.htm

Jim Bare