Re: Re: Is there anything to the Rife approach?

[Guest guest]

>Yes, you would need someone who knows tubes, but not

>only that, you need someone who isn't going to

>automatically think and work like a " radio guy " .

, is there a schematic available for the original single

frequency Rife transmitters you mentioned in a previous post? What is

your impression of the circuit below, said to have been redrawn by Crane?

http://users.navi.net/~rsc/rifeschm.htm

In the absence of a sympathetic tube designer, perhaps something like

this amp could be a viable alternative.

http://web.telia.com/~u85920178/tx/500w-txt.htm

Here is a data sheet for the PL519 used:

http://frank.yueksel.org/tubes/sheets/010/p/PL519.pdf

> " The plasma tube is not an inductive load and doesn't

>need a tuner, unless you introduce inductors into the

>circuit like all radio guys know they are 'sposed to

>have.

It is generally considered a non-linear resistive load. Ideally, the

impedance of the output should approximate that of the plasma tube.

Unless one is intending to confine exps to a narow preset frequency

band, I believe adjustment still needs to be provided. This seems to

be in evidence on Rife's machines.

>The earliest tubes were quartz.

These are still available from at least one supplier. No problem there.

As always, I am looking for the next practical step. On the same

website as the 500W tube amp is this:

http://web.telia.com/~u85920178/

Should be an easy matter to drive it with a 20MHz function generator

and apply some of those " original " MOR's in contact mode. However, my

only volunteer subject (me) does not have a suitable health

condition. Neither do I have a cat or dog. And I don't want to engage

in human testing. Anyone have an idea on how to otherwise test this

setup for results?

Nielsen

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

There have been high voltage transistors used in the HV section

of TV's for decades (which of course replaced the large tubes).

In the original Rife machines there was an air core HV

transformer which boosted the voltage (from the final tube) for

the plasma tube.

The HV transistors used in TV's are typically rated at 1500V

(some higher). The transistors are tiny.

Bil

PC 1000

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Mammoth Lakes, California

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JR> It's not an either or situation. You need both

JR> accuracy and power, and even one step further, you

JR> most likely need high voltage power. We'll probably

JR> have to go back to vacuum tubes for the output.

JR> For microscope work, you should be able to use a

JR> sweep, if it can hold a particular frequency for 10-30

JR> seconds. That probably wont work for treating a

JR> patient though.

JR> Also, the 50 watt output tube is not an absolute

JR> figure. It has more to do with the tube fitting into

JR> what was referred to as a 50 watt socket.

JR> Regards,

JR>

JR> --- Mike Fellows wrote:

>> Hi

>>

>> Your response is a big help. If this was the case

>> and the MOR was held

>> for 10 seconds in vitro and it worked, and I have no

>> reason to believe

>> it did not, it raises another question. With modern

>> function

>> generators that have extremely accurate sweep

>> functions one would

>> think that the actual frequency should be hit at

>> some point during the

>> sweep. I know this is not what is intended and it

>> would be nice to

>> know the actual MOR but in the interim

>> experimentation it would at

>> least give us some idea that we were on the right

>> track.

>>

>> I suspect that the actual output is much greater

>> than we have been led

>> to believe. Whilst I realize that valve technology

>> was in place which

>> required much larger housings, these were large

>> units to say the least.

>>

>> The video highlights the fact that the frequency

>> went through many

>> stages of amplification culminating in a 50 watt

>> output tube.

>>

>> I have done a lot of in vitro and in viva testing

>> with pseudomonas and

>> have had no luck with Rife/Bare, EMEM units or 30

>> volt p/p pad units

>> (the latter my own design). I have had some success

>> with curing

>> staphylococcus in a tooth abscess in viva. However

>> it was done with a

>> sweep so I have no idea what the actual frequency

>> was. I chose

>> pseudomonas as it is fairly easy to obtain and known

>> to be difficult

>> to kill.

>>

>> While I respect what many are saying in that

>> accuracy over power is

>> what is important I am beginning to believe that

>> this may not be the

>> case for the serious diseases that we face in the

>> world today.

>> So......... my next attempt will be to build a

>> device with much more

>> output preferably controlled from another area as I

>> am particularly

>> sensitive to the output from the plasma tubes and

>> large coils that I

>> have built.

>>

>> Again thank you for your help and I hope I don't get

>> carted away

>> before I achieve some results.

>>

>> Mike Fellows

JR>

[Guest guest]

>There are only circuit diagrams available for the

>Kennedy models 110 and 220; they don't give any

>component values. As for the amplifiers used, I don't

>know of any schematics or diagrams extant. Assuming

>that they just put out regular sine waves, you

>wouldn't want to use these today.

I was more interested in how they interfaced with the plasma tube,

and if any kind of adjustment was thought necessary at the time as

the supposed single frequency was changed.

>While I'm not an engineer, that doesn't look like what

>we're looking for. We need a simple design with a

>single robust power tube that can handle abuse.

Sounds good in theory. But what 500W RF tube are you thinking of? As

was mentioned in the accompanying text, that circuit is pretty

simple, for the bandwidth power derived.

On the other hand, a TV deflection transistor typically can handle

about 800V at 40W. This would be enough for a small plasma tube.

However, the practical upper frequency limit is reduced into the KHz.

IGBT's are another option, but the current rating typically drops as

specified bandwidth rises. If we are only interested in below 20KHz,

and can work with PWM, modifying a ready-made inverter (240VAC

version) would be another option.

http://www.alliedelec.com/Images/Products/Datasheets/BM/NTE_ELECTRONICS/NTE-Elec\

tronics_Actives-and-Passives_9357006.pdf

>I think that in the modern paradigm we

>think too much of achieving maximum efficiency. That

>should be considered _after_ we achieve the MOR

>effect.

Mismatching is not only about loss of efficiency. The waveform can

become distorted. If it is intended to use a sinewave, being a true

single frequency, impedance mismatch will introduce unwanted

harmonics. If this is acceptable, a step-up transformer might as well be used.

>That link just goes to the front page.

Sorry, it's here.

<http://web.telia.com/~u85920178/>http://web.telia.com/~u85920178/

>It still remains to be demonstrated if the plasma tube

>can be eliminated, while still using the same

>frequencies. My own intuitive speculation on the

>matter is that a contact mode approach will require

>much higher frequencies. This is partially based on

>the 1944 article:

The linked circuit will operate within the optimal range cited by the

article you mention. It's power output is about as much as might be

safely applied by contact. So, there is thankfully no need for more.

Obviously, Rife used lower harmonics, not the exact resonant

wavelengths of viral bodies. What you seem to be suggesting is that

for contacts to work efficiently, they need to more closely approach

the latter. This implies some inherent ability of plasma to entrain

resonance, which I am willing to believe. But I am trying the best

case scenario for a contact modality to see if we can first get

effects there without the complexity of plasma. Even at this early

stage, the concept is a significant departure from the lower

frequency " Rife " contact devices on the market. It could never be

commercially viable, as both the FDA and FCC would take interest.

To facilitate testing of the above, can anyone advise what is the

most likely of Rife's MHz (not audio) frequencies to produce a tangible result?

Nielsen

[Guest guest]

,

I worked with Aubrey on the design that he did. The frequency range was approx.

100kHz to 1.2mHz sweet spot was 450kHz. To my knowledge I have the only toroids

in the US that Aubrey calls for. I cleaned out the sample source at the time.

Still have some I think if you want me to look. I would not recomend this

dessign for someone not skilled in electronics as it is very 'touchy' but can be

made to work if you know what you are doing.

Jeffers

www.osptechnologies.com

> Hi ,

>

> Yes, the HV transformer would have a limited bandwidth. Best to

> contact someone in this group that's using one in their Rife

> device or knows about the one shown at Aubrey's site.

>

> BTW, I tried contacting Aubrey Scoon the other day. Didn't get a

> reply (e-mail didn't bounce). Anyone know if he's taking any

> e-mails?

>

> My specialty is TV and electronic repair, and some circuit

> design. Never involved with RF design.

>

> The only neon sign transformers I've seen ratings for were in the

> thousands of volts (as high as 15kV). How have you used your neon

> sign transformers for measuring the voltage for helium tubes?

>

> Thanks for this link. It shows plasma tubes running as high as

> 1kV. Is this correct?

>

> Bil

>

> PC 1000

> M-Pulse 5000 magnetic pulse generator

> http://magpulser.com

> Mammoth Lakes, California

>

>

> mailto:magpulser@...

>

>

> JR> --- Bil Green wrote:

>

> >> Hi ,

> >>

> >> The ~800V is not going to the plasma tube, but

> >> rather to the

> >> primary of the HV transformer (that air core

> >> transformer). This

> >> is what I've been saying in the last 2 e-mails.

>

>

>

> JR> Okay, but doesn't a transformer prevent you from

> JR> getting a wide bandwidth? If the earlier machine had

> JR> a range of 12 kHz to 2 MHz (not including harmonics),

> JR> and the #4 machine went up to 22 MHz, could you do

> JR> that with a transformer? If that's too wide, perhaps

> JR> you could try a range of 100 kHz to 2 MHz. That's

> JR> within the range of the listed MORs.

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

You only need one coil (with a tap) to act as a HV transformer.

This is exactly how an automotive ignition coil works. Pulsed

12VDC applied to the primary produces HV at the secondary (the

other section of the winding).

But in this case I may be wrong. The tank coil is used to keep

the output tube oscillating. Although as the tube conducts, the

coil will be constantly charging and discharging and may increase

the voltage to the plasma tube (due to the effect of back EMF).

Since there is no voltage listed at the plasma tube on any of the

schematics I've seen it's hard to say. At this page they at least

showed the ratings of the capacitors in the output stage.

http://www.navi.net/~rsc/riferev.htm 1kV indicates that the

voltage at the plasma tube as around 800V or less (the DC supply

voltage being 600V).

There is the equivalent of 2 coils whenever you have a tapped

coil (and this can be used as a transformer to boost the

voltage).

In this case one section has 17 turns and the other 40 turns, so

using it as a transformer you could have as much as twice the

voltage across the larger section if pulsed DC were applied to

the smaller winding. This example doesn't quite apply to this

circuit though.

Bil

PC 1000

M-Pulse 5000 magnetic pulse generator

http://magpulser.com

Mammoth Lakes, California

mailto:magpulser@...

JR> Hi Bil:

JR> How is a tank coil a HV transformer? I thought the

JR> tank coil just provides the inductance to make the

JR> resonant circuit? Don't you have to have two coils to

JR> make a transformer?

JR> Regards,

JR>

JR> --- Bil Green wrote:

>> Hi ,

>>

>> I hope you find this useful:

>>

>> 1939 Beam Ray (photo near bottom of page, " tank

>> coil " [HV coil]

>> at right, top side of chassis)

>>

JR> http://www.scoon.co.uk/Electrotherapy/Rife/BeamRay/index.htm

>> Very

>> nice redrawn schematics too.

>>

>>

>> Large coil at center of chassis

>>

JR> http://www.scoon.co.uk/Electrotherapy/Rife/Early/index.htm

>>

>>

>> At this page click here: " Modern Version by Aubrey

>> Scoon (PDF

>> format) is linked here "

>>

JR> http://www.scoon.co.uk/Electrotherapy/Rife/Early/gruner.htm

>>

>> Bil

JR>

[Guest guest]

Hi Mike,

I'm glad you found this site so helpful. Yes, technically a

transistor is considered a current amplifier, but at the same

time it can amplify voltage.

The final output in the horizontal amplifier section of a TV

receives a few volts at the base of the horizontal output

transistor and this is amplified to control the ~1,000 volts at

the output (transistor collector current). Certainly working as a

voltage amplifier.

The plate current (in the case of the plasma tube circuit, from

the 600VDC supply) in a tube is usually far greater than the grid

current. In some countries outside the US a vacuum tube is called

a " valve " .

The voltage difference at the tube's grid/cathode circuit

controls the plate current and this grid current is extremely low

by comparison. So a tube is amplifying current as well.

Yes, a transistor can certainly be used to drive the plasma tube.

Same voltage, etc. And they can handle way more current if

necessary.

Bil

PC 1000

M-Pulse 5000 magnetic pulse generator

http://magpulser.com

Mammoth Lakes, California

mailto:magpulser@...

MF> " Since there is no voltage listed at the plasma tube on any of the

MF> schematics I've seen it's hard to say. At this page they at least

MF> showed the ratings of the capacitors in the output stage.

MF> http://www.navi.net/~rsc/riferev.htm 1kV indicates that the

MF> voltage at the plasma tube as around 800V or less (the DC supply

MF> voltage being 600V). "

MF> Hi Bil,

MF> Thanks Bil for this informative site.

MF> This paper gives us clear evidence the effectiveness of high voltage,

MF> utilizing valve technology, in driving the plasma output. I'll have to

MF> go back and drag out my text books from the late 60's and study up on

MF> valve technology. For those that are up with valve theory; when

MF> amplifiers are driving a non linear output could it be that valves

MF> being a voltage amplifier as opposed to transistors being a current

MF> amplifier may be more effective for our cause? Or, is it possible to

MF> design an amplifier with solid state devices that is comparable?

MF> Like you Bil I was a repairer not a designer and one needs to wear a

MF> different cap to take on the challenge.

MF> This thread is producing more productive results than I have seen in a

MF> long time and I think it fair that Nate Berger should be thanked by

MF> all for kicking it off.

MF> Mike Fellows

MF>

[Guest guest]

Hi Bil, , Rifers,

In one of the early lab notes (bacillus X 1932) Rife states ¨plate voltage at

928V.

The filament amperage of this machine carried 86 mA.

I have conducted a number of experiments exposing volunteers to a R,B setup

ranging from

90 W at the plasmatube to 1 KW.

With person fronting the output device a half insulated acupuncture needle is

inserted intramuscular at the back of the volunteer. Scope probe attached to

tiny bare section of needle.

All measurements ( I x U ) indicate that the body does not absorb more wattage

than appr.30 to 40 W regardless of device settings.

This experiment can be repeated by anybody with one or more powerful device(s)

and a scope.

From this I conclude that more power is not always necessary. A 100W device is

ample sufficient depending on distance and the plastube demand.

From the different postings I gather also that there remains some misconception

about plasma tubes. Rife used an altered X ray tube. They were relatively easy

to come by, in his day, and easy to mod. X ray tubes however are made for a

different purpose! Massive electrodes need to release an optimum amount of

electrons in the shortest of time to silhouette the image required.

Plasma tubes as directional antennae need sufficient electron release to ionize

the gas in question. Ionised gas then works as a conductor as well as a highly

efficient frequency carrier.

Some open ended plasma devices are even employed in audio technique for their

purity of tone.

The electrodes necessary for this purpose only need to be twice the mass of neon

signs measured in mW per mtr.

To not confuse radio vacuum tubes with plasma tubes I will refer to the first as

valves and the latter as tubes from now on. Radio valves are in fact also plasma

tubes but that is another story.

Regards to all,

Gordon

Hi Mike,

I'm glad you found this site so helpful. Yes, technically a

transistor is considered a current amplifier, but at the same

time it can amplify voltage.

The final output in the horizontal amplifier section of a TV

receives a few volts at the base of the horizontal output

transistor and this is amplified to control the ~1,000 volts at

the output (transistor collector current). Certainly working as a

voltage amplifier.

The plate current (in the case of the plasma tube circuit, from

the 600VDC supply) in a tube is usually far greater than the grid

current. In some countries outside the US a vacuum tube is called

a " valve " .

The voltage difference at the tube's grid/cathode circuit

controls the plate current and this grid current is extremely low

by comparison. So a tube is amplifying current as well.

Yes, a transistor can certainly be used to drive the plasma tube.

Same voltage, etc. And they can handle way more current if

necessary.

Bil

PC 1000

M-Pulse 5000 magnetic pulse generator

http://magpulser.com

Mammoth Lakes, California

mailto:magpulser@...

MF> " Since there is no voltage listed at the plasma tube on any of the

MF> schematics I've seen it's hard to say. At this page they at least

MF> showed the ratings of the capacitors in the output stage.

MF> http://www.navi.net/~rsc/riferev.htm 1kV indicates that the

MF> voltage at the plasma tube as around 800V or less (the DC supply

MF> voltage being 600V). "

MF> Hi Bil,

MF> Thanks Bil for this informative site.

MF> This paper gives us clear evidence the effectiveness of high voltage,

MF> utilizing valve technology, in driving the plasma output. I'll have to

MF> go back and drag out my text books from the late 60's and study up on

MF> valve technology. For those that are up with valve theory; when

MF> amplifiers are driving a non linear output could it be that valves

MF> being a voltage amplifier as opposed to transistors being a current

MF> amplifier may be more effective for our cause? Or, is it possible to

MF> design an amplifier with solid state devices that is comparable?

MF> Like you Bil I was a repairer not a designer and one needs to wear a

MF> different cap to take on the challenge.

MF> This thread is producing more productive results than I have seen in a

MF> long time and I think it fair that Nate Berger should be thanked by

MF> all for kicking it off.

MF> Mike Fellows

MF>

[Guest guest]

From this electronics-related discussion it seems that the voltage

required to initially light a plasma lamp may be about 800-1000

volts. Further, transistors are available which can operate at this

voltage and at frequencies to 2 MHz or more. Estimates of the power

required appear to range from less than 100 to a few hundred watts.

Would it be correct to think that one could simply construct a system

by using: 1) a high-voltage power supply with appropriate voltage and

power ratings, 2) a plasma tube, 3) a high-voltage transistor between

the power supply and the plasma tube, and 4) a frequency source to

drive the transistor? Would this be a modern equivalent to Rife's units?

This system would be similar to a higher frequency EMEM-type device,

except that a power supply replaces the ignition coil, and the

transistor is on the output rather than input side of the power

supply. A Google search for " high voltage power supply " turns up many

listings. Perhaps there are some modestly priced options available.

Safety issues aside, if one built their own high voltage power supply

using a step-up transformer then the high voltage output would need

to be rectified and filtered. Perhaps it would also need to be

current-limited?

Warren

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

It seems unlikely that 600VDC would be used for the plate supply

voltage (as in at least 2 of the schematics at Aubrey's site) and

only 250V at the helium tube. Doesn't anyone here know what

voltages were used to drive the plasma tubes in these old units?

Bil

PC 1000

M-Pulse 5000 magnetic pulse generator

http://magpulser.com

Mammoth Lakes, California

mailto:magpulser@...

JR> --- Gordon wrote:

>> Hi Bil, , Rifers,

>>

>> In one of the early lab notes (bacillus X 1932) Rife

>> states ¨plate voltage at 928V.

>> The filament amperage of this machine carried 86 mA.

JR> The plate voltage can't be used to estimate power.

JR> You have to use the approximate running voltage of the

JR> plasma tube, which for a helium phanotron type of tube

JR> is about 250 volts. When calculated with the current

JR> figure in the lab note, that comes to 21.5 watts

JR> dissipation of the plasma tube.

>> I have conducted a number of experiments exposing

>> volunteers to a R,B setup ranging from

>> 90 W at the plasmatube to 1 KW.

>> With person fronting the output device a half

>> insulated acupuncture needle is inserted

>> intramuscular at the back of the volunteer. Scope

>> probe attached to tiny bare section of needle.

>> All measurements ( I x U ) indicate that the body

>> does not absorb more wattage than appr.30 to 40 W

>> regardless of device settings.

>> This experiment can be repeated by anybody with one

>> or more powerful device(s) and a scope.

JR> I assume from the figures you gave that you used the

JR> more common straight tube? It would be interesting to

JR> see how a phanotron tests, and at different distances

JR> from the body.

>> From this I conclude that more power is not always

>> necessary. A 100W device is ample sufficient

>> depending on distance and the plastube demand.

JR> <snip>

JR> Another point to keep in mind is that in Rife's

JR> system, all the power was concentrated into the MOR,

JR> whereas in the Bare device, the power is distributed

JR> among the carrier, audio square wave, and all the

JR> harmonics. So, I think that 40-100 watts of MOR

JR> coming out of a phanotron would be ample, but I don't

JR> know how that translates to the Bare device. If we

JR> assume that the audio square wave is the operative

JR> component, then we would have to have 40-100 watts of

JR> audio coming out of the plasma tube, and also factor

JR> for the harmonics. It would be interesting to see if

JR> your 40 watt figure holds for a single frequency and

JR> through a phanotron.

JR> Regards,

JR>

JR>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

The schematics at Aubrey's site. We've also been discussing those

(a lil bit). But then the same question arises. Why 928V if the

tube only needs 250V (which seems much too low for any plasma

tube).

Neon tubes, EMEMs (including those using helium filled

Phanatron's) and even those little plasma globes, use thousands

of volts to keep the tube fired up.

Maybe because the electrodes in the Phanatron are so close

together? I'm just curious (as I'm sure others are).

Bil

PC 1000

M-Pulse 5000 magnetic pulse generator

http://magpulser.com

Mammoth Lakes, California

mailto:magpulser@...

JR> --- Bil Green wrote:

>> Hi ,

>>

>> It seems unlikely that 600VDC would be used for the

>> plate supply

>> voltage (as in at least 2 of the schematics at

>> Aubrey's site) and

>> only 250V at the helium tube. Doesn't anyone here

>> know what

>> voltages were used to drive the plasma tubes in

>> these old units?

JR> What 600 volts are you referring to? We were talking

JR> about the figure of 928 volts in the lab note for BX.

JR> The plasma tube is a constant voltage device. Once

JR> it's lit, it runs at its characteristic voltage. All

JR> you can do after that is put more current through it.

JR> Regards,

JR>

JR>

[Guest guest]

,

To answer your query about tubes used in the experiment, apart from a number

of straight tubes I also did use two phanotron type tubes. One filled with

Helium and one with Argon.

The same observations as previously mentioned apply.

I would like to mention that apart from a setup where you can modulate voltage

at a given current the reverse is also possible.

A number of experiments called for constant high voltages and the current then

became the modulator. In the neon industry some bombarding machines, not all,

use up to and over 12KVolts and a modulating current to bombard tubes.

If the output of any given setup exceeds the demand of the tube, as with the

1KW experiment,

the stress on components is tremendous and you are able to fry an egg on the

tube within minutes. Therefore I have developed a simple test setup to

determine the exact amount of power(wattage) a tube needs. I feel this a must as

no two tubes, as yet, are the same. Anything more than that results in

component failure and heat dissipation. A number of years ago I forwarded these

findings to this list, but no´´one seemed interested

at the time. In some configuration the plate voltage does not change either.

For instance, a simple solid state Tesla coil. The operating voltage, depending

on the HV transformer, runs at 3 to 6 KV regardless of what tube you hang on

the wires.

Best regards,

Gordon

[Guest guest]

Hi Mike,

Thank you for making these tests

Did you use a scope to record these voltages? What was the

wattage of the resistor? According to your findings there would

have been an average of about 0.4A flowing the the 1,000 Ohm

resistor (and the tube as well).

With 400V across the resistor this would be 160W (400 x 0.4). A

small resistor would have burned up instantly.

Also, you didn't say what the input voltage is (12VDC?) or what

device you tested. You seem to be working with an EMEM. With a

12VDC input at the maximum current you have listed (4.5A) the

wattage would be less that 50W (the actual voltage across the

coil is less than 12V).

So the actual voltage across that resistor was much less than

400V, and this is no indication as to how much voltage was across

the tube (what we've been discussing).

You can measure the voltage across the tube with the proper

voltage divider and a scope. If the ground lead of the voltage

divider falls off, the HV will wipe out your scope.

Bil

PC 1000

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http://magpulser.com

Mammoth Lakes, California

mailto:magpulser@...

MF> Hi All

MF> Have just run some tests with an analogue meter across a 16 " tube

MF> filled with Argon. Without the spark plugs fitted (meters don't like

MF> the output with these fitted), running 2 coils and using 4 different

MF> frequency generators to test consistency. The tube was lighting

MF> between 220 - 300V. Changing duty cycle made little difference to the

MF> striking voltage, however, it did effect the maximum voltage across

MF> the tube. Maximum voltage recorded without the spark plugs was 450V.

MF> The spark plugs were returned to the circuit and an excess of 1200V

MF> was recorded @ 100Hz back down to 400V @10KHz.

MF> While the spark plugs were removed I placed a 1000 ohm resistor in

MF> series with the tube and recorded the following voltages across it:

MF> Input Current Freq Voltage Voltage

MF> to coils across res. across tube

MF> 4.5 amp 100 13.41 400V

MF> 4.0 amp 1,000 13.06 400V

MF> 2.0 amp 5,000 7.44 340V

MF> 1.0 amp 10,000 3.58 440V

MF> RF field strength was low without the spark plugs but increased

MF> significantly when refitted with maximums at 10KHz.

MF> Hope the above helps

MF> Regards, Mike

MF>

>>

>> > Hi ,

>> >

>> > The schematics at Aubrey's site. We've also been

>> > discussing those

>> > (a lil bit). But then the same question arises. Why

>> > 928V if the

>> > tube only needs 250V (which seems much too low for

>> > any plasma

>> > tube).

>>

>>

>> High voltage is needed to light the tube, but after

>> it's lit, lower voltage is needed to sustain it. In

>> Rife's earliest experiments, the amplifier had lower

>> voltage, so he had to apply a separate voltage to

>> light the tube. This would explain why many of the

>> lab notes have very low plate voltages.

>>

>>

>>

>> > Neon tubes, EMEMs (including those using helium

>> > filled

>> > Phanatron's) and even those little plasma globes,

>> > use thousands

>> > of volts to keep the tube fired up.

>>

>>

>>

>> Neon sign transformers are constant current devices.

>> The voltage adjusts to whatever voltage is needed to

>> maintain their rated constant current. They strike

>> the tube with their high voltage, but after the tube

>> is lit, the voltage comes down. As I mentioned

>> earlier, I use a neon sign transformer to test the

>> running voltage of phanotrons I've used and set up for

>> other people. If I remember correctly, that last tube

>> I measured was about 270 volts, even though the

>> transformer is rated at 9000 volts max. I think the

>> EMEM machines are just using a brute force approach;

>> they don't have any way of optimizing the system after

>> the tube is lit. I don't know how the plasma globes

>> work, but I don't think they are the same as a proper

>> neon or other gas plasma tube.

>>

>>

>> > Maybe because the electrodes in the Phanatron are so

>> > close

>> > together? I'm just curious (as I'm sure others are).

>>

>>

>> I believe there are several factors that affect the

>> running voltage of a tube, which include electrode

>> spacing, type of gas, pressure, and I'm sure a few

>> other things I don't know about, but those are the

>> main ones.

>>

>> Regards,

>>

>>

>>

>>

MF>

[Guest guest]

Hi Mike,

I'm very sorry, I read the wrong column. Never mind. Thanks for

your test results.

What type of meter and voltage divider did you use for recording

these voltages? (without a voltage divider a few thousand volts

across the tube would have taken out most meters).

Having made such a gross error in my last e-mail, I hope this

hasn't shattered my credibility here! Please consider the

following:

I suspect that the true voltage across these tubes (with high

performance ignition coils) is much higher than 400V. When I run

my 2 coil (MSDs) EMEM (no spark gap) one end of my double bubble

E-gas tube gets almost too hot to touch.

According to your tests the maximum current flowing through the

tube (at 100Hz) would be 13mA** (.013A). At 400V across the tube

this would equal 5.3W. Certainly not enough to make a good sized

section of the tube very hot.

What I felt was more like 50W (and that was just one end of the

tube).

**13.41 div by 1000 (and of course the same amount of current is

flowing through the tube and resistor)

Bil

PC 1000

M-Pulse 5000 magnetic pulse generator

http://magpulser.com

Mammoth Lakes, California

mailto:magpulser@...

MF> Hi All

MF> Have just run some tests with an analogue meter across a 16 " tube

MF> filled with Argon. Without the spark plugs fitted (meters don't like

MF> the output with these fitted), running 2 coils and using 4 different

MF> frequency generators to test consistency. The tube was lighting

MF> between 220 - 300V. Changing duty cycle made little difference to the

MF> striking voltage, however, it did effect the maximum voltage across

MF> the tube. Maximum voltage recorded without the spark plugs was 450V.

MF> The spark plugs were returned to the circuit and an excess of 1200V

MF> was recorded @ 100Hz back down to 400V @10KHz.

MF> While the spark plugs were removed I placed a 1000 ohm resistor in

MF> series with the tube and recorded the following voltages across it:

MF> Input Current Freq Voltage Voltage

MF> to coils across res. across tube

MF> 4.5 amp 100 13.41 400V

MF> 4.0 amp 1,000 13.06 400V

MF> 2.0 amp 5,000 7.44 340V

MF> 1.0 amp 10,000 3.58 440V

MF> RF field strength was low without the spark plugs but increased

MF> significantly when refitted with maximums at 10KHz.

MF> Hope the above helps

MF> Regards, Mike

MF>

>>

>> > Hi ,

>> >

>> > The schematics at Aubrey's site. We've also been

>> > discussing those

>> > (a lil bit). But then the same question arises. Why

>> > 928V if the

>> > tube only needs 250V (which seems much too low for

>> > any plasma

>> > tube).

>>

>>

>> High voltage is needed to light the tube, but after

>> it's lit, lower voltage is needed to sustain it. In

>> Rife's earliest experiments, the amplifier had lower

>> voltage, so he had to apply a separate voltage to

>> light the tube. This would explain why many of the

>> lab notes have very low plate voltages.

>>

>>

>>

>> > Neon tubes, EMEMs (including those using helium

>> > filled

>> > Phanatron's) and even those little plasma globes,

>> > use thousands

>> > of volts to keep the tube fired up.

>>

>>

>>

>> Neon sign transformers are constant current devices.

>> The voltage adjusts to whatever voltage is needed to

>> maintain their rated constant current. They strike

>> the tube with their high voltage, but after the tube

>> is lit, the voltage comes down. As I mentioned

>> earlier, I use a neon sign transformer to test the

>> running voltage of phanotrons I've used and set up for

>> other people. If I remember correctly, that last tube

>> I measured was about 270 volts, even though the

>> transformer is rated at 9000 volts max. I think the

>> EMEM machines are just using a brute force approach;

>> they don't have any way of optimizing the system after

>> the tube is lit. I don't know how the plasma globes

>> work, but I don't think they are the same as a proper

>> neon or other gas plasma tube.

>>

>>

>> > Maybe because the electrodes in the Phanatron are so

>> > close

>> > together? I'm just curious (as I'm sure others are).

>>

>>

>> I believe there are several factors that affect the

>> running voltage of a tube, which include electrode

>> spacing, type of gas, pressure, and I'm sure a few

>> other things I don't know about, but those are the

>> main ones.

>>

>> Regards,

>>

>>

>>

>>

MF>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Adding a large value resistor in series with the plasma tube (in

an EMEM) greatly increases the voltage at the tube (not across

the tube). This creates a very strong E-field.

Some people run the tube ungrounded (HV to one end - other end

disconnected). Voltage can be as high as 40,000V.

Bil

PC 1000

M-Pulse 5000 magnetic pulse generator

http://magpulser.com

Mammoth Lakes, California

mailto:magpulser@...

JR> Hi Mike:

JR> Nice work. Now, if you're able, get an identical but

JR> helium filled tube and do the same. I think you'll

JR> find that the running voltage will be higher. I think

JR> that with the EMEM devices (actually, all devices),

JR> anything you can do to have a higher running voltage

JR> of the tube will make it work better.

JR> Regards,

JR>

JR> --- Mike Fellows wrote:

>> Hi All

>>

>> Have just run some tests with an analogue meter

>> across a 16 " tube

>> filled with Argon. Without the spark plugs fitted

>> (meters don't like

>> the output with these fitted), running 2 coils and

>> using 4 different

>> frequency generators to test consistency. The tube

>> was lighting

>> between 220 - 300V. Changing duty cycle made little

>> difference to the

>> striking voltage, however, it did effect the maximum

>> voltage across

>> the tube. Maximum voltage recorded without the spark

>> plugs was 450V.

>> The spark plugs were returned to the circuit and an

>> excess of 1200V

>> was recorded @ 100Hz back down to 400V @10KHz.

>>

>> While the spark plugs were removed I placed a 1000

>> ohm resistor in

>> series with the tube and recorded the following

>> voltages across it:

>>

>> Input Current Freq Voltage

>> Voltage

>> to coils across res.

>> across tube

>> 4.5 amp 100 13.41

>> 400V

>> 4.0 amp 1,000 13.06

>> 400V

>> 2.0 amp 5,000 7.44

>> 340V

>> 1.0 amp 10,000 3.58

>> 440V

>>

>> RF field strength was low without the spark plugs

>> but increased

>> significantly when refitted with maximums at 10KHz.

>>

>> Hope the above helps

>>

>> Regards, Mike

JR>