HCl dosing (and secretin and anti-trypsin and Celiac)

[Guest guest]

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of Idol

>At the moment I'm taking NOW, sometimes mixed with Pure Encapsulations,

>depending on the amount of protein in the meal, but I'm always on the

>lookout for something better. I tried Jarrow's bile acid factors

>supplement once and suffered from excruciating pain, though. I suppose

>that could've been from feeding giardia, though, in which case it'd be

>worth trying again in a little while. It's bovine bile, though, and I'd

>think porcine would be much better -- if there is such a thing as

>a porcine

>bile supplement.

>

>As to additives, well, good luck. I haven't found a filler-free HCl

>yet. I've found pure bulk betaine HCl, but no pure bulk pepsin that would

>allow me to roll my own. Also, it doesn't seem like mixing pancreatin in

>with the HCl/pepsin is a good idea, as it should be taken right

>after the meal.

I was looking at the same one mentioned - Premiere Labs pure HCl. So

let me understand this...You take half your HCl AND pepsin dose after the

first few bites of a meal. Then the other half when the meal if half

finished, then your pancreatin last? Then you take HCl *alone* sometimes

when you're not eating?

If HCl and pepsin should always be consumed together when eating meals, I

guess the trick is finding an additive-free HCl AND pepsin product.

Another interesting factoid as to why HCl is so important for digestion. HCl

stimulates the release of a peptide called secretin, produced in the small

intestines. Secretin's job is to stimulate the release of bicarbonate from

the pancreas into the small intestines. If it doesn't do this, then the

pancreatic enzymes in the small intestine can't do their job since the pH is

too acidic.

Also, if anyone thinks all trypsin inhibitors are bad, think again, LOL.

Alpha-1-antitrypsin is produced by the liver and is responsible for breaking

down proteins that, if not kept in check, digest our own tissue,

particularly lung tissue. Alpha-1-antitrypsin deficiency can lead to

emphysema, cirrhosis of the liver and respitory distress in infants born

with a deficiency.

Dr. Shaw who wrote " Biological Treatments for Autism and PDD " also believes

a deficiency of this enzyme is related to wheat allergies because children

with Celiac disease tend to have low levels. He doesn't mention the method

of action, but I assume he means that proteases might be digesting the

intestinal lining when Alpha-1-antitrypsin is deficient?

Anyway, both of these are somewhat related to the whole hypochloridia

discussion so I thought I'd throw them in there as food for thought.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

Suze-

>I was looking at the same one mentioned - Premiere Labs pure HCl.

Urk. Now I can't find the link, and I realized that I confused the one

mentioned with a different brand, which is pepsin-free. Is this one

pepsin-free?

> So

>let me understand this...You take half your HCl AND pepsin dose after the

>first few bites of a meal. Then the other half when the meal if half

>finished, then your pancreatin last? Then you take HCl *alone* sometimes

>when you're not eating?

Yes, but inter-meal HCl should be pepsin-free, because you don't actually

want to digest anything, you just want to maintain proper stomach acidity.

>If HCl and pepsin should always be consumed together when eating meals, I

>guess the trick is finding an additive-free HCl AND pepsin product.

Yup. Unfortunately, that's proven to be an impossible trick so far. And

there's also the question of how much pepsin you actually want, which I

haven't been able to answer to my satisfaction yet.

>Another interesting factoid as to why HCl is so important for digestion. HCl

>stimulates the release of a peptide called secretin, produced in the small

>intestines. Secretin's job is to stimulate the release of bicarbonate from

>the pancreas into the small intestines. If it doesn't do this, then the

>pancreatic enzymes in the small intestine can't do their job since the pH is

>too acidic.

Yup. HCl by itself begins to break food down, it turns pepsin into its

active form, pepsinogen, and it stimulates the release of pancreatic

acids. All in all it's very, very important.

>Also, if anyone thinks all trypsin inhibitors are bad, think again, LOL.

>Alpha-1-antitrypsin is produced by the liver and is responsible for breaking

>down proteins that, if not kept in check, digest our own tissue,

>particularly lung tissue. Alpha-1-antitrypsin deficiency can lead to

>emphysema, cirrhosis of the liver and respitory distress in infants born

>with a deficiency.

Interesting. It's a trypsin inhibitor which actually breaks down proteins...?

-

[Guest guest]

On 8/23/05, Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> >Also, if anyone thinks all trypsin inhibitors are bad, think again, LOL.

> >Alpha-1-antitrypsin is produced by the liver and is responsible for

> breaking

> >down proteins that, if not kept in check, digest our own tissue,

> >particularly lung tissue. Alpha-1-antitrypsin deficiency can lead to

> >emphysema, cirrhosis of the liver and respitory distress in infants born

> >with a deficiency.

>

> Interesting. It's a trypsin inhibitor which actually breaks down

> proteins...?

Yes, because enzymes are proteins. So if an enzyme is designed

specifically to block or break down trypsin, which is a protein, it

would be an anti-trypsin.

Anti-trypsins can't possibly be all bad because the body produces a

lot of them. I'm not sure that necessarily translates into a need or

desirability to *eat* them. Of course you want anti-trypsin in your

lungs, where you shouldn't have food, but do you want anti-trypsin in

your digestive tract where the trypsin is breaking down food?

Chris

--

Want the other side of the cholesterol story?

Find out what your doctor isn't telling you:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

Chris-

>Yes, because enzymes are proteins. So if an enzyme is designed

>specifically to block or break down trypsin, which is a protein, it

>would be an anti-trypsin.

Yes, but I took Suze's statement to mean that it broke down more than just

trypsins. That could well be my mistake, though.

>Anti-trypsins can't possibly be all bad because the body produces a

>lot of them. I'm not sure that necessarily translates into a need or

>desirability to *eat* them. Of course you want anti-trypsin in your

>lungs, where you shouldn't have food, but do you want anti-trypsin in

>your digestive tract where the trypsin is breaking down food?

Yeah, well, that's a key question. Inasmuch as trypsin inhibitors are

present in foods to prevent them from being broken down -- digested -- it

doesn't seem like it's a good idea to eat them.

-

[Guest guest]

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of Idol

>Suze-

>

>>I was looking at the same one mentioned - Premiere Labs pure HCl.

>

>Urk. Now I can't find the link, and I realized that I confused the one

> mentioned with a different brand, which is pepsin-free. Is

>this one

>pepsin-free?

Yes. http://www.vpnutrition.com/product_info.php/products_id/47

>

>> So

>>let me understand this...You take half your HCl AND pepsin dose after the

>>first few bites of a meal. Then the other half when the meal if half

>>finished, then your pancreatin last? Then you take HCl *alone* sometimes

>>when you're not eating?

>

>Yes, but inter-meal HCl should be pepsin-free, because you don't actually

>want to digest anything, you just want to maintain proper stomach acidity.

Why?To keep pathogens out?

>

>>If HCl and pepsin should always be consumed together when eating meals, I

>>guess the trick is finding an additive-free HCl AND pepsin product.

>

>Yup. Unfortunately, that's proven to be an impossible trick so far. And

>there's also the question of how much pepsin you actually want, which I

>haven't been able to answer to my satisfaction yet.

Any ballpark figure rolling around in your noggin?

>

>>Also, if anyone thinks all trypsin inhibitors are bad, think again, LOL.

>>Alpha-1-antitrypsin is produced by the liver and is responsible

>for breaking

>>down proteins that, if not kept in check, digest our own tissue,

>>particularly lung tissue. Alpha-1-antitrypsin deficiency can lead to

>>emphysema, cirrhosis of the liver and respitory distress in infants born

>>with a deficiency.

>

>Interesting. It's a trypsin inhibitor which actually breaks down

>proteins...?

I meant to write " enzymes " (which are, of course proteins). Apparently the

levesl tend to be low in austic and celiac folk. Which could explain, in

part, our gut permeability perhaps?

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

Suze-

>Yes. http://www.vpnutrition.com/product_info.php/products_id/47

Oh, OK, I wasn't confused after all.

>Why?To keep pathogens out?

That's most likely the primary -- or perhaps even only -- reason the

stomach naturally maintains its acidity between meals.

>Any ballpark figure rolling around in your noggin?

Not really. I've taken HCl that includes 134-150mg pepsin per capsule and

that seems to aid protein digestion while also giving me more of a reflux

problem due to my particular stomach problems.

>I meant to write " enzymes " (which are, of course proteins). Apparently the

>levesl tend to be low in austic and celiac folk. Which could explain, in

>part, our gut permeability perhaps?

Perhaps... I'll have to look into this.

-