Re: New Member Intro (Long)

[Guest guest]

Hi Mindy,

Welcome! I'm new here too, but am learning lots! I've found using the

phrase " She's had all the vacinations she needs " works pretty well if people

don't care to go further... a caring grandmother is another matter

altogether! Good luck to you!

Tonya

>From: " Mindy Fenton s " <12paws@...>

>Reply-Vaccinations

> " Vaccinations " <Vaccinations >

>Subject: New member intro (long)

>Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 09:42:35 +0900

>

>Hi folks,

>

>I'm Mindy and I'm originally from Los Angeles. I have a pet husband (from

>London), a pet daughter (7 months old and she was born here in Japan) as

>well as

>3 amazing Chows ages 12, 13 and 15.

_________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

Welcome Lana!

how refreshing to meet another person who is targeting sodium under

1000 mg and potassium over 3000. That's exactly what I do.

I've pretty much evolved to fresh fruits and veggies for the

potassium and cooking from scratch to avoid the sodium. Stir-fry,

roast, and soup, that's me.

I also quit eating grains except for occasional quinoa, oats, and

amaranth because so many of them are so much lower in potassium than

roots and fruits and squash. beans too I guess but I get to where I

just don't wanna soak and sprout. For a while I really liked an

amaranth-oat-pumpkin muffin but that takes work LOL

Connie

> Hello All,

>

> My name is Lana Gibbons and I need help with my diet.

>

> I guess I should start with my history. When I was young I refused

to

> drink dark sodas or eat fast food. (Due to me getting sick from

them

> the first few times I tried to eat them.) I also ate an abundance

of

> Potassium containing foods such as Mashed potatoes and wheat germ

> (straight out of the jar).

>

> As I got older I started to drink dark sodas occasionally and eat

fast

> food about once every month or two. I also got this thing for

salt.

> It started with salted butter and moved into salty anything. Mmmm

> Bacon, Popcorn, Fried Rice, etc etc. I ate a ton of salt daily

until

> one day I ate so much my joints puffed up and I could not move.

That

> was scary. I stopped eating so much salt after that.

>

> It was right after that incident that I started to show symptoms of

my

> mother's endometriosis. I was placed on medication to prevent it

from

[Guest guest]

Lana,

Have you read " Nourishing Traditions " by Sally Fallon and perused the

Weston A. Price Foundation Web site yet? I ask because you say you

eat soy and I would seriously reconsider this choice, especially given

your history.

Why don't you post a sample day or two of meals and your *current*

health issues? That will give us something to go on.

Oh, and welcome!

[Guest guest]

Connie-

>how refreshing to meet another person who is targeting sodium under

>1000 mg and potassium over 3000. That's exactly what I do.

Why?

-

[Guest guest]

--- In , Idol <Idol@c...>

wrote:

> Connie-

>

> >how refreshing to meet another person who is targeting sodium under

> >1000 mg and potassium over 3000. That's exactly what I do.

>

> Why?

Just something I kind of converged on.

Remembering that I'm obese, perimenopausal, insulin resistant, used

to be high blood pressure and elevated lipid profile (not any more

for the last two)

I use these targets for a number of reasons:

- Shooting for a sodium-to-potassium ratio of at LEAST 1:4. But I

hate most veggies so I gave myself a break to 1:3.

- potassium's role in insulin/glucose functioning

- helps me to get more veggies, the easiest potassium sources,

helping the acid-base balance (otherwise it'd be meat & grain)

- forces me away from excess grains, which give too high of starch

with too low on potassium for what my metabolism can handle

[Guest guest]

,

We can start with the fact that Sodium is not good for you in the amounts

the average american eats. (Which is up to 4 times the RDV, which is already

high IMHO) Sodium puts undue strain on the liver and kidneys and can cause

you to pee out a lot of vital minerals like potassium and calcium before

your body gets a chance to use them. Excess sodium can also throw off your

intestines absorbtion abilities and cause all sorts of bowl issues

(including irritating my IBD, which I haven't heard from since I stopped

eating so much Sodium). It has only been in the last hundred or so years

that our diets have begun to contain more Sodium than Potassium. If

Americans didn't process foods with salt or salt water, most people would be

eating under 1000mg/day. I would hope we can all agree that most

commercially proccessed foods are not good to eat.

I had a very simple reason for choosing to eat 3x the potassium as I eat

sodium. Human breast milk has been tested to have a 3:1 to 4:1 ratio of

Potassium to sodium. Potassium is great for high blood pressure and general

heart heath. Deficiency can cause heart attacks. There has been no upper

limit established for dietary potassium (supplimental is dangerous) so ...

why not? In the ideal world I would eat 4000+mg/day but I am still getting

used to eating 3000mg/day. Saying you eat for potassium is saying you eat a

diet rich in fruits in vegetables.

I originally determined my Potassium reliance because I exhibited symptoms

of deficiency. I was having chest spasms, I would lose strength and

collapse, my kidneys were under load (and always aching), and I often felt

like I was running on dirty fuel. I discovered Potassium because every time

I had chest spasms, I had this undefyable urge to drink molasses straight

out of the bottle. Organic molasses contains potassium at 730mg/Tablespoon

(and is also high in magnesium, calcium and iron), and it would stop all of

my symptoms soon after I ate it. So I wised up and I changed my diet: these

symptoms pretty much all went away.

This is an excellent resource to help understand vitamins and minerals:

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/index.html It is the best I have found

on the web so far.

Sincerely,

Lana M. Gibbons

On 8/25/05, cbrown2008 <cbrown2008@...> wrote:

>

>

> > Connie-

> >

> > >how refreshing to meet another person who is targeting sodium under

> > >1000 mg and potassium over 3000. That's exactly what I do.

> >

> > Why?

>

> Just something I kind of converged on.

>

> Remembering that I'm obese, perimenopausal, insulin resistant, used

> to be high blood pressure and elevated lipid profile (not any more

> for the last two)

>

> I use these targets for a number of reasons:

>

> - Shooting for a sodium-to-potassium ratio of at LEAST 1:4. But I

> hate most veggies so I gave myself a break to 1:3.

>

> - potassium's role in insulin/glucose functioning

>

> - helps me to get more veggies, the easiest potassium sources,

> helping the acid-base balance (otherwise it'd be meat & grain)

>

> - forces me away from excess grains, which give too high of starch

> with too low on potassium for what my metabolism can handle

>

[Guest guest]

,

I do not understand how soy could be a bad choice since one of the

healthiest cultures on this planet are the Japanese and they eat an

abundance of soy. But I will check out the books and the website.

My current health issue is a body deep nausea and shortness of breath

with occasional chest pains that occur if I don't eat enough Potassium

(which soy beans are exceptionally high in - they have more than OJ)

or if I eat too much Sodium. Sometimes it occurs anyway and right now

I am suspecting a drop in Magnesium, or maybe Manganese.

I also have symptoms of fatigue, weakness, easily winded, mood swingy

and mildly prone to anxiety attacks. I find that Vitamin B and C help

this some, and definately the reduced Sodium/increased Potassium...

but there's something else that I could use and I don't know what.

Breakfast

Banana

and/or

Organic Clif Nectar Bar (usually Chocolate Walnut other times Lemon

Vanilla Cashew)

Snack1

1-2 Servings Organic Baby Carrots

or

1 Serving Strawberries

Lunch

1 cup cooked mixed Vegetables (Carrots, Mushrooms, Snap Peas, Soy beans)

or

1 cup cooked Edamame

or

Whole Grain English Muffin or Bagel with Cream Cheese and Diced

Peppers (Red/Green/Yellow/Orange/Violet)

Snack2

Sun Maid dried Fruit Bits/Raisins/Goldens and Cherries

or

Homemade Organic Apple Chips

or

Terra Chips Sweets and Beets

or

Lightly Salted Roasted Almonds

Dinner

Steak (3 oz)

or

Chicken (3 oz)

with

1/2-1 cup Vegetable (Peas/Corn/Mashed or Baked Sweet or Yukon Gold Potatoes)

-----

Half whole wheat/whole spelt and half semolina durum wheat pasta

or

Frozen Cheese Filled Raviolis

with

Tomato Sauce and a small amount of cheese (cheddar/parmisagn/romano)

Snack 3

Breadsticks dipped in lightly seasoned (if at all) Sour Cream

or

Arnold Stone Ground Whole 7 or 12 Grain Bread Toasted sometimes with

Unsalted Butter

Fluids

1-6 servings of 100% Juice (OJ/Cranberry/Apple/Grape)

and

Organic Kombucha/Lemon and Ginger/Passion Fruit/Licorice Tea

and

Plain Water (Tap/Brita/Poland Spring water cooler at work)

or

Glacieau Vitamin Water (Power-C/Revive/Defense)

or

Coconut Milk

or

occasionally Ginger Ale or Ginger Beer

My ideal weight is about 128-132 lbs. I have a low activity level so

my calorie requirement is around 1600-1700.

I think that is about it. I am trying to add more legumes into my

diet but I have been having prep problems. They soak for days, and

then I'll steam them and they still don't get soft enough to eat. So

far all my attempts have been disappointing. I would like to eat

legumes in a 1:1 ratio with grains, due to their excellent combined

amino acid profiles. I think I'm going to try to crock pot them next.

I will also be picking a few greener veggies to add into my diet: I am

thinking Broccolli and Spinach. I also want to add in Beets but I'm

lost as to how to prep them. I gotta scour the net for some recipes.

Thanks for all your help,

Lana M. Gibbons

On 8/25/05, <jessclaire@...> wrote:

> Lana,

>

> Have you read " Nourishing Traditions " by Sally Fallon and perused the

> Weston A. Price Foundation Web site yet? I ask because you say you

> eat soy and I would seriously reconsider this choice, especially given

> your history.

>

> Why don't you post a sample day or two of meals and your *current*

> health issues? That will give us something to go on.

>

> Oh, and welcome!

>

>

[Guest guest]

Connie-

>Remembering that I'm obese, perimenopausal, insulin resistant, used

>to be high blood pressure and elevated lipid profile (not any more

>for the last two)

And why does that make you think you need to severely limit sodium and

consume enormous amounts of potassium?

>- Shooting for a sodium-to-potassium ratio of at LEAST 1:4. But I

>hate most veggies so I gave myself a break to 1:3.

>

>- potassium's role in insulin/glucose functioning

I assure you that your target ratio is not necessary in any way whatsoever

for restoration of proper insulin/glucose/leptin functioning.

>- helps me to get more veggies, the easiest potassium sources,

>helping the acid-base balance (otherwise it'd be meat & grain)

As Price's work demonstrates, the idea that acid-ash foods and alkaline-ash

foods need to be balanced is false.

>- forces me away from excess grains, which give too high of starch

>with too low on potassium for what my metabolism can handle

As you have a weight problem and suffer from a derangement of your insulin

metabolism, you should avoid grains for their carb content.

-

[Guest guest]

> And why does that make you think you need to severely limit sodium

and

> consume enormous amounts of potassium?

" severely " ? " enormous " ? LOL This makes it sounds so white-knuckle,

earnest and dreary, and nothing could be farther from my laid-back

style of abundance and high quality. All I do for soduim is use sea

salt on top of fresh foods so I can really taste it, and not use

packaged things where there's a ton in there and you can't even taste

it. And all I do for fruits and veggies is have 1-4 " servings " at

each meal and the numbers end up there.

BTW the WHO has reducing sodium worldwide as one of its main health

objectives.

> As Price's work demonstrates, the idea that acid-ash foods and

alkaline-ash

> foods need to be balanced is false.

I'll take your word for it on the Price perspective of ash. I came

here because I so like the " Nourishing Traditions " cookbook and want

to learn more. Haven't spent much time on the original Price material

or web site.

I adopted this strategy from other sources working from more modern

research. PRAL measures of acidity versus ash. My favorite article as

a starting point for this thinking on acid-base is

Berardi's " Covering Nutritional Bases " article and it has cites plus

there's a little bit on Cordain's Paleo site.

Connie

[Guest guest]

Connie-

>BTW the WHO has reducing sodium worldwide as one of its main health

>objectives.

Do you also follow their recommendations on dietary fat and cholesterol?

Here's a longish excerpt from a much longer article on salt by J.

Rosch, MD, F.A.C.P. written for Red Flags Daily. Unfortunately I can't

include the chart mentioned below, and the site (and this article) is

subscription-only, but here's the

URL. http://www.redflagsdaily.com/rosch/2003_jul11.php. RFD is an

excellent resource, and I recommend it to anyone who has the money to

subscribe.

>>How Did The Low Salt Crusade Start?

>>

>>If salt was believed to be so valuable and useful in so many ways for so

>>many thousands of years by so many million people from so many different

>>cultures, why is it that we have only recently discovered that it is

>>dangerous? Like the conspiracy against cholesterol and fat intake, the

>>denunciation of sodium began little more than 50 years ago. Low salt

>>proponents point out that over four thousand years ago, the Yellow

>>Emperor's Canon of Internal Medicine stated, " too much salt stiffens the

>>pulse " . They interpret this as representing advanced arteriosclerosis due

>>to hypertension. However, unlike acupuncture, magnets and herbal remedies

>>that are mentioned and are still popular, there was no further reference

>>to this.

>>

>>About 100 years ago, French physicians reported that restricting salt and

>>salty foods benefited patients with fluid retention and hypertension.

>>Shortly thereafter, it was found that mercurial compounds used to treat

>>syphilis often caused a significant diuresis, which led to the

>>development of mercurial drugs to treat edema. Although more effective

>>than trying to eliminate sodium intake, they had to be injected and often

>>had serious side effects. The advent of modern diuretics resulted from

>>the equally serendipitous observation that some patients being treated

>>with sulfa drugs for rheumatic fever and bacterial infections also often

>>experienced a significant diuresis. In 1949, Bill Schwartz reported that

>>three patients with marked edema due to heart failure who were given

>>sulfonamides all showed dramatic improvement but that these drugs were

>>also " too toxic for prolonged or routine use. "

>>

>>The first proof that reducing sodium intake could benefit some patients

>>with hypertension also came in 1949 when Walter Kempner reported

>>improvement in malignant hypertension associated with kidney disease and

>>heart failure. The Kempner diet consisted solely of rice and certain

>>fruits that limited sodium intake to less than 350 mg daily and had no

>>fat. It was extremely hard to adhere to for more than a week or two but

>>was preferable to bilateral lumbar sympathectomy, the only other

>>treatment for this lethal disorder.

>>

>>Karl Beyer, a research chemist, tried several variations of the

>>sulfonamide formula and developed Diuril (chlorothiazide). It proved to

>>be safer and more effective in reducing edema and it also lowered blood

>>pressure in hypertensive patients without evidence of significant fluid

>>retention. Diuril and other thiazide diuretics like Hydrodiuril and

>>Hygroton quickly became the treatment of choice for hypertension. Support

>>for their use came from animal studies showing a correlation between

>>increased sodium content of arterial vessels and elevated blood pressure.

>>

>> Dahl was able to develop a strain of salt sensitive rats who

>>routinely developed hypertension to support his firm belief in the value

>>of salt restriction. This was widely heralded and cited by other low salt

>>proponents as proof of the role of salt in hypertension. What they often

>>neglect to mention is that these rats would have to be fed an amount of

>>salt equivalent to over 500 grams daily for an adult human. Dahl also

>>demonstrated a linear relationship between salt intake and blood pressure

>>in different populations as noted below:

>>

>>[TABLE MISSING HERE]

>>

>>This surely confirmed the dangers of salt for everyone and prompted the

>>1979 " Surgeon General's Report on Health Promotion and Disease

>>Prevention " condemning salt as a clear cause of high blood pressure.

>>Since then, the government has spent untold millions in a vain attempt to

>>justify this claim. Their expensive and lengthy crusade to prove a link

>>between sodium and hypertension began in 1984 with the $1.3 million

>>INTERSALT study of 10,000 subjects in 52 centers around the world. As

>>anticipated, researchers reported that societies with higher sodium

>>intakes also had higher average blood pressures. A similar relationship

>>was also allegedly shown in individuals, thus clinching the government's case.

>>

>>The Art Of Mining Salt Study Statistics

>>

>>The INTERSALT study seemed to confirm Dahl's findings. However, when the

>>four primitive societies with both extremely low sodium intake and very

>>low blood pressures were excluded no such correlation was found in the

>>other 48 groups. This was reminiscent of Ancel Keys' famous study where

>>he " cherry picked " seven countries out of 15 around the world and

>>demonstrated a straight-line relationship between animal fat and

>>cholesterol consumption and deaths from coronary heart disease. Had Keys

>>selected data from the eight other countries that were available to him

>>the results would have been exactly the opposite.

>>

>>The INTERSALT researchers conveniently neglected to mention that the

>>population of the four countries responsible for skewing the total

>>figures to coincide with their preconceived conclusion also had less

>>stress, less obesity, ate far less processed foods and much more fiber

>>from fruits and vegetables. They also tended to die at younger ages from

>>other causes and often too soon to have developed any significant degree

>>of coronary atherosclerosis. Critics complained that these four societies

>>that distorted the average figures for sodium intake and hypertension

>>were so different from the rest of the groups, especially those in the

>>U.S.A. and U.K., that it was " like comparing apples with stringbeans

>>rather than oranges. "

>>

>>The Yanomami Indians in the rain forests of Brazil had mean blood

>>pressures of 95/61 and equally low urinary sodium levels. These primitive

>>people had no evidence of hypertension, obesity or alcohol consumption

>>and their blood pressures did not rise with age. When the available data

>>from the other more civilized societies was reviewed, statisticians found

>>that as sodium intake increased there was a decrease in blood pressure,

>>just the opposite of what had been reported. The lowest salt intake

>>seemed to be in a subgroup of Chicago black males despite the fact that

>>their incidence of hypertension was above average. Conversely, high blood

>>pressure was relatively rare in participants from China's Tianjin

>>Province even though this study group had the highest salt intake.

>>

>>When confronted with these discrepancies, the researchers reanalyzed

>>their data in an attempt to justify their conclusions. However, the only

>>thing they could come up with was that a higher sodium intake could be

>>correlated with a faster rise of blood pressure as people grew older.

>>This is referred to as " mining the data " since a relationship between

>>blood pressure and aging was never a goal of the study. Nor did this

>>observation address the major purpose of determining whether increased

>>dietary sodium was related to higher rates of illness or death for everyone.

>>

>>While it may be true that " figures don't lie " , liars can still figure.

>>The first law of statistics is that if the statistics do not support your

>>theory you obviously need more data. The second is that if you have

>>enough data to choose from, anything can be proven by statistical

>>shenanigans. A good example are the numerous " risk factors " for coronary

>>heart disease like a deep earlobe crease or premature vertex baldness

>>that are really " risk markers " . These simply represent statistical

>>associations rather than competent causes. You can't use a statistic to

>>prove another statistic.

>>

>>However, the anti-salt statisticians had a field day with the data from

>>the 1999 follow-up study of NHANES (National Health and Nutrition

>>Examination Survey) which began tracking 20,729 Americans in 1971. They

>>reported that participants who ate the most salt had 32 percent more

>>strokes, a whopping 89 percent more deaths from stroke, 44 percent more

>>heart-attack deaths, and 39 percent more deaths from all causes. This

>>finally seemed to prove precisely what the government had been preaching

>>all along. In addition, the study's conclusions were seemingly credible

>>due to the large number of subjects and a 19-year average period of

>>observation, enough time to determine whether people would have increased

>>mortality rates or a higher incidence of illness from consuming too much salt.

>>

>>As the lead author proudly proclaimed, " Our study is the first to

>>document the presence of a positive and independent relationship between

>>dietary sodium intake and cardiovascular disease risk in adults " .

>>

>>Pouring Salt In Low Sodium Wounds

>>

>>However, when independent researchers reanalyzed the data they discovered

>>that dietary sodium intake was associated with higher rates of illness

>>and death only in participants who were overweight. There was no

>>correlation between sodium and increased cardiovascular disease risk in

>>the remainder. Undaunted, another study author continued to claim that

>>the conclusions were valid since statistics showed that more than one in

>>three Americans were overweight and most ate too much salt.

>>

>>He admitted that the NHANES research " was not specifically designed to

>>answer " the question of sodium and health - in other words, more mining

>>of the data. In addition, the entire study depended on just one 24-hour

>>recall of sodium intake. When questioned about the dubious value of such

>>information he was forced to concede that " At best, the estimate for

>>sodium is imperfect " . He also agreed that measuring the concentration of

>>sodium in a 24-hour urine specimen would have provided more accurate

>>information about dietary habits and excess consumption.

>>

>>Statistics are somewhat like expert witnesses in that they can be used to

>>testify for either side depending on what you want to prove. When

>>Alderman, a highly regarded epidemiologist and past president of The

>>American Society of Hypertension scrutinized the same data in patients

>>who were not overweight he reported that " the more salt you eat, the less

>>likely you are to die. " - (from heart disease or anything else). Alderman

>>has long been critical of the government's low sodium diet advice for

>>large populations and their focus on sodium intake as it relates to blood

>>pressure rather than to the overall health, quality and length of life of

>>individuals. He examined the relationship between sodium intake and

>>health effects in 3,000 patients with mild to moderate hypertension. In

>>addition, his group measured sodium excretion, which is much more

>>accurate than estimating dietary intake. At the end of four years, they

>>found that those who consumed the least sodium had the most myocardial

>>infarctions and other cardiovascular complications.

>>

>>The reason for this is that when you restrict vital nutrients like salt

>>(or cholesterol) all sorts of strange things can result. Low sodium diets

>>can increase levels of renin, LDL and insulin resistance, reduce sexual

>>activity in men and cause cognitive difficulties and anorexia in the

>>elderly. Tasteless and dull low sodium diets can cause other nutritional

>>deficiencies. Lowering sodium with diuretics to treat hypertension can

>>cause similar problems. Renin is possibly the most powerful and dangerous

>>blood pressure raising substance known. Indeed, the study done by

>>Alderman's group found that for every 2% increase in pretreatment plasma

>>renin activity there was a 25% increase in heart attacks. No such

>>correlation was found with increased sodium intake.

Perhaps you should rethink your avoidance of salt.

-

[Guest guest]

Lana Gibbons wrote:

>

> I also have symptoms of fatigue, weakness, easily winded, mood swingy

> and mildly prone to anxiety attacks. I find that Vitamin B and C help

> this some, and definately the reduced Sodium/increased Potassium...

> but there's something else that I could use and I don't know what.

>

> or

> Whole Grain English Muffin or Bagel with Cream Cheese and Diced

> Peppers (Red/Green/Yellow/Orange/Violet)

>

> -----

> Half whole wheat/whole spelt and half semolina durum wheat pasta

>

> Snack 3

> Breadsticks dipped in lightly seasoned (if at all) Sour Cream

> or

> Arnold Stone Ground Whole 7 or 12 Grain Bread Toasted sometimes with

> Unsalted Butter

You might try dropping the wheat for a week or two and see what happens.

Mood swings, fatigue and electrolyte imbalance are typical gluten

intolerance symptoms.

Similar symptoms can come from other IgA allergies, but gluten is the

most common one, and it's hidden in a lot of foods (I'm not sure about

Clif bars). You didn't mention the " P " word (poop) and it's rude I'm sure

for me to ask, but electrolyte issues often have to do with gut dysbiosis,

and lack of re-absorption of electrolytes. I.e. if you have loose stools

or diarrhea that can cause the electrolytes to be out of kilter.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

>> I do not understand how soy could be a bad choice since one of the

healthiest cultures on this planet are the Japanese and they eat an

abundance of soy. But I will check out the books and the website. <,

Because soy is hormonally active and your body doesn't need phytoestrogens when

it has its own perfectly good human estrogen?

Because soy is one of the most processed foods ever eaten by human beings?

Because much of the soy the Japanese eat is FERMENTED (miso, tempeh, natto, soy

sauce) and eaten as a condiment, not as lumps of tofu? Besides, even so, they

eat between 2 tsp and a quarter cup of soy products a day, most of which are

fermented soy (fermentation destroys some of soy's harmful qualities).

Furthermore, the Japanese use HUGE amounts of salt in the preparation of soy

dishes. Do you follow them there, too?

The Japanese consume half a pound of fish a day - do you do that?

And they consume more dairy products than they do fish - eat fermented veggies

and broths daily - eat lots of organ meats, much more than we eat in the US. Do

you follow that also?

It's very dangerous to take one single element from a traditional or modern diet

and use it to prove something. Japanese health may be in spite of, not because

of, levels of soy in their diet. Maybe it's all that seafood and fermented

vegetables instead. And the levels of soy they consume are really nowhere near

as high as we often think they are.

Inside Japan

http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional_diets/japan.html

Soy Controversy (scroll down to " Soy Usage in Asia " )

http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/soy_controversy.html

Christie

Caber Feidh ish Deerhounds

Holistically Raising Our Dogs Since 1986

http://www.caberfeidh.com/

http://www.doggedblog.com/

[Guest guest]

....

> It's very dangerous to take one single element from a traditional

or modern diet and use it to prove something. Japanese health may be

in spite of, not because of, levels of soy in their diet. Maybe it's

all that seafood and fermented vegetables instead. And the levels of

soy they consume are really nowhere near as high as we often think

they are.

....

> Christie

Hi Christie and Lana:

All of this is very true. Actually, if you permit me, I even question

the assertion: " one of the healthiest cultures on this planet are the

Japanese " . Isn't suicide so very common among Japanese youngsters?

Aren't the Japanese infamous for their misogyny (hatred of women) and

xenophobia (hatred of foreigners). How come that's a healthy culture

on those grounds?

At the same time, however, the rationale probably applies for those

cases when someone claims raw dairy and milk are excellent because

the Masai use them, or raw meat is to be eaten as much as you want

because the traditional Eskimoes do feast on it. Aren't people in

both cases singling out an isolated element from a certain culture

and promoting it as health-giving for a society like ours that leads

such a different lifestyle? Not that raw dairy and meat are bad per

se, but often do we fail to consider the very different environments

where those things take place.

Cheers,

José .

[Guest guest]

Christie,

Thanks!

However, at this time the biggest lead on the cause of endometriosis is

unhealthy human estrogen.

Point taken about processing.

Point taken about fermentation. I know I need to eat more fermented foods.

The japanese may eat more salt, but they eat more then enough veggies to get

the corresponding potassium requirement.

I am working on increasing the amount of fish in my diet.

Point taken on taking a nurtitional element out of the context of the whole

diet.

I love your posts Christie.

Thanks again,

Lana

On 8/26/05, Christie <christiekeith@...> wrote:

>

> >> I do not understand how soy could be a bad choice since one of the

> healthiest cultures on this planet are the Japanese and they eat an

> abundance of soy. But I will check out the books and the website. <,

>

> Because soy is hormonally active and your body doesn't need phytoestrogens

> when it has its own perfectly good human estrogen?

>

> Because soy is one of the most processed foods ever eaten by human beings?

>

> Because much of the soy the Japanese eat is FERMENTED (miso, tempeh,

> natto, soy sauce) and eaten as a condiment, not as lumps of tofu? Besides,

> even so, they eat between 2 tsp and a quarter cup of soy products a day,

> most of which are fermented soy (fermentation destroys some of soy's harmful

> qualities). Furthermore, the Japanese use HUGE amounts of salt in the

> preparation of soy dishes. Do you follow them there, too?

>

> The Japanese consume half a pound of fish a day - do you do that?

>

> And they consume more dairy products than they do fish - eat fermented

> veggies and broths daily - eat lots of organ meats, much more than we eat in

> the US. Do you follow that also?

>

> It's very dangerous to take one single element from a traditional or

> modern diet and use it to prove something. Japanese health may be in spite

> of, not because of, levels of soy in their diet. Maybe it's all that seafood

> and fermented vegetables instead. And the levels of soy they consume are

> really nowhere near as high as we often think they are.

>

> Inside Japan

> http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional_diets/japan.html

>

> Soy Controversy (scroll down to " Soy Usage in Asia " )

> http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/soy_controversy.html

>

> Christie

> Caber Feidh ish Deerhounds

> Holistically Raising Our Dogs Since 1986

> http://www.caberfeidh.com/

> http://www.doggedblog.com/

>

>

[Guest guest]

> Christie,

>

> Thanks!

>

> However, at this time the biggest lead on the cause of endometriosis

is

> unhealthy human estrogen.

If you really believe this, you might want to read one of

Vliet's books. It's not really " unhealthy " human estrogen.

Katy

[Guest guest]

,

I am avoiding Sodium, not Salt. Salt is Sodium Chloride. I realize I need

salt as it is an electrolyte. About 1/3 to 1/2 of Sodium Chloride is

actually Sodium. So if my only source of Sodium is salt, I can eat up to

2000mg/day without issues.

However, sodium is currently one of the most affordable preservatives out

there. I have to watch my processed foods to avoid it.

Please do not confuse Sodium with Salt. There's a big difference!

Sincerely,

Lana M. Gibbons

On 8/26/05, Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

>

>

> Perhaps you should rethink your avoidance of salt.

>

>

>

> -

>

>

[Guest guest]

Lana-

>I am avoiding Sodium, not Salt. Salt is Sodium Chloride. I realize I need

>salt as it is an electrolyte. About 1/3 to 1/2 of Sodium Chloride is

>actually Sodium. So if my only source of Sodium is salt, I can eat up to

>2000mg/day without issues.

Inasmuch as salt is a prime source of sodium, if you're drastically your

constricting sodium intake, you're going to have no choice but to restrict

salt.

>However, sodium is currently one of the most affordable preservatives out

>there. I have to watch my processed foods to avoid it.

Why eat any processed foods in the first place?

>Please do not confuse Sodium with Salt. There's a big difference!

I really recommend that you read the excerpt of the article I posted, or

better yet the full article itself. Salt and sodium restriction are not a

good idea for most people.

-

[Guest guest]

Heidi,

Thanks for the suggestion. I will have to try it. Can you get leavened bread

with non-gluten containing grains? Where would I find it? Got any recipes

that go in a bread machine?

Clif's Nectar bars (Not clif regular bars) consist of 3-5 organic fruits and

nuts. They're good, and easy.

I did have some significant improvement when I stopped eating grains and

started eating more meat, but I ended up sick. I've been perusing the Weston

Price site and I have come across a link between too much protein and not

enough Vitamin A and Fat. I think right now I am not eating enough fat to

assimilate the amount of Vitamin A I need to repair the damage from eating

such a high protein diet for a while. " Several researchers have reported

that a diet of lean meat leads to nausea in three days, symptoms of

starvation and ketosis in 7-10 days, severe debilitation in 12 days and

possibly death in a few weeks. "

http://www.westonaprice.org/basicnutrition/macronutrientland.html

I think I'm gonna try eating more fat too. Does anyone have a list of foods

high in healthy fats?

My stools throughout life have been too hard and too slow. I go through

bouts of IBD when my endometriosis flares up though. There was a period of

time where things were coming out much like they went in so I started up on

an Enzyme and Probiotic supplimentation. That helped a bit, and keeping my

Potassium and fiber intakes high seems to have resolved most of my bowel

issues. I'm more normal than I've ever been.

Thanks for asking!

Sincerely,

Lana M. Gibbons

On 8/26/05, Heidi <heidis@...> wrote:

>

> You might try dropping the wheat for a week or two and see what happens.

> Mood swings, fatigue and electrolyte imbalance are typical gluten

> intolerance symptoms.

> Similar symptoms can come from other IgA allergies, but gluten is the

> most common one, and it's hidden in a lot of foods (I'm not sure about

> Clif bars). You didn't mention the " P " word (poop) and it's rude I'm sure

> for me to ask, but electrolyte issues often have to do with gut dysbiosis,

> and lack of re-absorption of electrolytes. I.e. if you have loose stools

> or diarrhea that can cause the electrolytes to be out of kilter.

>

> -- Heidi

>

[Guest guest]

,

I did read your excerpt.

I don't know how more plain I can put it:

I am not most people. I am not fat, I do not have high blood pressure

and I certainly didn't just decide on a low sodium diet for the heck

of it.

I have been eating too much sodium my whole life, with salt intakes in

excess of 7000mg/daily. The day I overdosed on salt I ate 5 times the

maximum reccomended intake. I was also dependant on sodium based

laxatives for a while. For all I know I made myself allergic to

sodium.

What it comes down to is that too much sodium makes me sick. If I

don't eat enough potassium to cover all the sodium I eat in a day the

next day I wake up nauseous, feeling tainted and tired. If I continue

eating too much sodium and not enough potassium neurological symptoms

set in and I can barely walk across my small house much less go to

work.

I do not want to end up on disability again.

If I eat 2000mg of sodium in a day (the USDA RDV for my calorie

intake), I have to eat almost 6000mg of potassium to avoid ill

effects. It is hard enough to eat 3000mg of potassium in a day. I

think 1000mg/daily is a reasonable Sodium intake. It is not a

no-sodium diet, its not even a low-sodium diet. I'm just watching my

intake so it doesn't get too high in proportion to my potassium

intake.

Thanks for your opinion on my health regarding sodium, but at this

point I am completely unable to sacrifice my livlihood to prove what I

already know about my unique body.

Sincerely,

Lana M. Gibbons

On 8/26/05, Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> I really recommend that you read the excerpt of the article I posted, or

> better yet the full article itself. Salt and sodium restriction are not a

> good idea for most people.

>

>

>

> -

[Guest guest]

Katy,

Do you have a specific recomendation as to which of her books to read?

Or would any random one do fine?

Thanks!

Sincerely,

Lana M. Gibbons

On 8/26/05, Katy <iowakatybug@...> wrote:

> > However, at this time the biggest lead on the cause of endometriosis

> is

> > unhealthy human estrogen.

>

> If you really believe this, you might want to read one of

> Vliet's books. It's not really " unhealthy " human estrogen.

>

> Katy

[Guest guest]

>> However, at this time the biggest lead on the cause of endometriosis is

unhealthy human estrogen.

<<

I have a different take on this. Endometriosis is not " caused " by estrogen. It

is caused by endocrine system disruption.

I think that endocrine disruption is a huge multi-factorial issue. Estrogenic

substances are everywhere in our environment, binding to our estrogen receptors,

interfering with normal hormonal activity in our bodies.

Estrogenic substances in our environment, such as certain pesticides and things

like dioxin, along with diets that produce insulin and other digestive hormone

imbalances, too much artificial light, not enough sleep, and chronic stress all

combine to put our endocrine system into a tailspin. Our sex hormones are messed

up, our sleep hormones are messed up, our digestive hormones are messed up, our

hormone precursors are messed up, and the communication between those systems is

also messed up.

And we then take a tiny sliver of this complex hormonal feedback system and say

..... estrogen bad! Bad, bad estrogen!

We don't differentiate between our own estrogen, and estrogenic substances. We

create the diagnosis of " estrogen dominance " to explain the constellation of

symptoms we've identified as being a problem, and written a prescription pad for

reducing the effects of our own estrogen on our bodies (which we CAN control

somewhat), while the real problem is xenoestrogens (which we can't). Women are

either using conventional hormone therapy, mostly with non-bioidentical human

hormones, and/or are loading themselves up with soy isoflavones, hormonally

active herbs and foods, and actually using progesterone (which most of us need

like we need a hole in the head) to try to restore some sense of balance. And

sometimes they do, indeed, feel better, even if our attempts to balance our

hormonal systems usually resemble a bull in a china shop.

We also eat foods that disrupt our prostaglandin metabolism, producing

inflammatory states in our bodies that further interefere with hormonal feedback

and regulation. Too many of the " wrong " fatty acids in the wrong balance. Too

many of the " RIGHT " fatty acids, which we ingest to try to reduce inflammation

and counter the excess of the others.

Most of us eat diets fairly or very high in carbohydrate, leading to state of

insulin resistance, especially in women - even in those who are not overweight.

Insulin, another hormone, is part of a feedback loop that eventually goes back

to our sex hormones and stress hormones and sleep hormones, because all the

hormone systems are interconnected.

The fix for this is not to use phytoestrogens like those in soy foods to block

the estrogen receptors on our cells. The fix for this is to heal the damaged

system in the first place, to fix our sleep patterns and stress patterns and

diets, our fatty acid imbalances and metabolic disorders and insulin resistance.

The problem is, this is overwhelming and perhaps impossible. I certainly don't

have a cure for the ills of civilization. I do the best I can to eat pure foods

that have as close to their natural nutrient profiles as I can manage, but even

with my best efforts, I am forced to fall short.

I live in a very pristine area, far from streetlights, traffic, and noise, but

still, I'm on this damn computer too many hours, and stay up well past dark,

especially in the winter, watching TV or reading or posting to this list. <G>

Too much artificial light. Too little sleep. Not enough exercise. Too much

stress.

But calling our body's own estrogen " bad " is not a step I'm prepared to take.

Our body's estrogen is GOOD. It's essential. It will keep you looking and

feeling alive, it will keep your skin soft and supple, it will help you sleep,

it will keep your bones strong, it will make you feel sexy and interested in

sex, and it will regulate appetite and weight. Does that REALLY sound like a bad

thing? <G>

Christie

Caber Feidh ish Deerhounds

Holistically Raising Our Dogs Since 1986

http://www.caberfeidh.com/

http://www.doggedblog.com/

[Guest guest]

On 8/26/05, Lana Gibbons <lana.m.gibbons@...> wrote:

> ,

>

> We can start with the fact that Sodium is not good for you in the amounts

> the average american eats. (Which is up to 4 times the RDV, which is already

> high IMHO) Sodium puts undue strain on the liver and kidneys and can cause

> you to pee out a lot of vital minerals like potassium and calcium before

> your body gets a chance to use them.

I kind of understand how the kidneys could be stressed, but why the liver?

Although I find even the kidney issue a little confusing. As far as I

know, increased electrolytes would increase water retention to lower

the osmotic pressure in the blood, wouldn't they? I thought people

who react poorly to sodium usually have problems with retaining water.

And if it were true that there was a sodium-specific reaction to

eliminate electrolytes, why wouldn't the elimination also be

sodium-specific?

> Excess sodium can also throw off your

> intestines absorbtion abilities and cause all sorts of bowl issues

> (including irritating my IBD, which I haven't heard from since I stopped

> eating so much Sodium).

That's odd. From everything I've read, sodium facilitates the

absorption of glucose across the intestinal lining (maybe other

nutrients too.) The mainstream theory posits a pump for this,

although I have my doubts about pumps in general. What is the

mechanism by which sodium would *decrease* absorption?

> It has only been in the last hundred or so years

> that our diets have begun to contain more Sodium than Potassium. If

> Americans didn't process foods with salt or salt water, most people would be

> eating under 1000mg/day. I would hope we can all agree that most

> commercially proccessed foods are not good to eat.

100 years is definitely wrong. In the early 19th century, everything

was preserved in salt! Tons of it! I'm sure potassium intake is

lower now due to refining, but sodium intake from what I've read has

always been favored by traditional peoples, who often went through

great lengths to obtain salt, except sea-food-rich diets like that of

the Inuit, who abhorred salt-- probably because seafood is so rich in

sodium by itself.

> I had a very simple reason for choosing to eat 3x the potassium as I eat

> sodium. Human breast milk has been tested to have a 3:1 to 4:1 ratio of

> Potassium to sodium. Potassium is great for high blood pressure and general

> heart heath. Deficiency can cause heart attacks. There has been no upper

> limit established for dietary potassium (supplimental is dangerous) so ...

> why not? In the ideal world I would eat 4000+mg/day but I am still getting

> used to eating 3000mg/day. Saying you eat for potassium is saying you eat a

> diet rich in fruits in vegetables.

I don't but the argument that our diet should resemble breast milk.

Isn't breast milk about 5% protein by calories? Certainly an adult

should have a higher protein content. The things that are going on in

a infant are very different from what goes on in an adult.

> I originally determined my Potassium reliance because I exhibited symptoms

> of deficiency. I was having chest spasms, I would lose strength and

> collapse, my kidneys were under load (and always aching), and I often felt

> like I was running on dirty fuel. I discovered Potassium because every time

> I had chest spasms, I had this undefyable urge to drink molasses straight

> out of the bottle. Organic molasses contains potassium at 730mg/Tablespoon

> (and is also high in magnesium, calcium and iron), and it would stop all of

> my symptoms soon after I ate it. So I wised up and I changed my diet: these

> symptoms pretty much all went away.

I have little doubt that many people need more potassium, and many

consume too much sodium, but how low do you need to keep your sodium

to achieve this? I would think, for example, a no-added-salt diet

would probably be deficient in sodium, unless it was specially

designed to include high-sodium foods.

Chris

--

Want the other side of the cholesterol story?

Find out what your doctor isn't telling you:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

On 8/26/05, Lana Gibbons <lana.m.gibbons@...> wrote:

> I also have symptoms of fatigue, weakness, easily winded, mood swingy

> and mildly prone to anxiety attacks. I find that Vitamin B and C help

> this some, and definately the reduced Sodium/increased Potassium...

> but there's something else that I could use and I don't know what.

This is what I was like when I was vegan/vegetarian, only very

heavily-- even psychotically, prone to anxiety attacks, phobias, and

obsessive-compulsive disorder.

I would consider that your diet is severely deficient in both protein

and animal fat. Especially if you have any type of metabolic

problems, you should be eating some protein with every meal.

I would seriously consider junking the soy. When I used soy heavily,

(and also was vegetarian), my anxiety problems were at their worst.

> I think that is about it. I am trying to add more legumes into my

> diet but I have been having prep problems. They soak for days, and

> then I'll steam them and they still don't get soft enough to eat. So

> far all my attempts have been disappointing. I would like to eat

> legumes in a 1:1 ratio with grains, due to their excellent combined

> amino acid profiles. I think I'm going to try to crock pot them next.

It seems to me that should be your last priority. I would cocentrate

on including more animal foods in your diet.

Chris

--

Want the other side of the cholesterol story?

Find out what your doctor isn't telling you:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

On 8/26/05, cbrown2008 <cbrown2008@...> wrote:

> BTW the WHO has reducing sodium worldwide as one of its main health

> objectives.

I'm not sure why the WHO's stance on anything is relevant, but the WHO

is not exactly a reputable source of scientific information.

Consider, as a general indicator of their scientific credibility, that

in 1990 they eliminated the criterion of " sufficient evidence of

carcinogenicity in humans " for classification of an agent as a Group 1

" known human carcinogen. "

I would consider an organization that does not consider " sufficient

evidence " that something causes harm in humans to classify it as a

" known " cause of said harm a reliable source of information.

Nevertheless, appealing to an organization, rather than the data it

has accumulated, is an argument on authority which necessarily reduces

the credibility of any argument.

Chris

--

Want the other side of the cholesterol story?

Find out what your doctor isn't telling you:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

Lana-

>I have been eating too much sodium my whole life, with salt intakes in

>excess of 7000mg/daily. The day I overdosed on salt I ate 5 times the

>maximum reccomended intake.

What happened when you ate that much?

>For all I know I made myself allergic to

>sodium.

Actually, that's not physiologically possible. Allergies can only develop

to proteins, but maybe more to the point, sodium is necessary for

physiological function. You literally cannot live without sodium.

>What it comes down to is that too much sodium makes me sick. If I

>don't eat enough potassium to cover all the sodium I eat in a day the

>next day I wake up nauseous, feeling tainted and tired. If I continue

>eating too much sodium and not enough potassium neurological symptoms

>set in and I can barely walk across my small house much less go to

>work.

This sounds like the result of a derangement of your metabolism, but

without a lot more information it's hard to make any detailed conjectures.

-