Re: iron overload from food iron

[Guest guest]

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of Masterjohn

>

>

>Has anyone studied the issue of iron overload?

>

>I wonder why the Massai do not, apparently, suffer from heart disease,

>despite high red meat intakes, if iron from food contributes to iron

>overload.

>

>To some extent, the issue must be mediated by absorption factors and

>then other mechanisms for dealing with iron inside the body.

>

>I know Ray Peat is very anti-iron, but also seems to be quite

>pro-liver which has lots of iron.

>

>Any thoughts?

Doesn't lactoferrin bind iron? I could be way off, but in the hinterlands of

my memory I thought I'd read that somewhere. If so, the milk in their diet

would offset iron overload, I imagine.

>

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

Chris-

>Has anyone studied the issue of iron overload?

>

>I wonder why the Massai do not, apparently, suffer from heart disease,

>despite high red meat intakes, if iron from food contributes to iron

>overload.

One possibility is that the form of the iron makes a difference, and the

body knows how to handle the form of iron found in animal foods but not the

forms often found in supplements and in food cooked in cast iron and so

on. Another is that the dairy the Masai traditionally consumed provided

them with enough lactoferrin to handle the large amount of iron in their

diet. Perhaps both are at work.

-

[Guest guest]

On 8/23/05, Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> One possibility is that the form of the iron makes a difference, and the

> body knows how to handle the form of iron found in animal foods but not the

> forms often found in supplements and in food cooked in cast iron and so

> on. Another is that the dairy the Masai traditionally consumed provided

> them with enough lactoferrin to handle the large amount of iron in their

> diet. Perhaps both are at work.

Well you eat a !@#$-load of iron with all that liver. So do you feel

confident you're protected from it?

Bill Sardi dropped me a line to tell me I was killing people by

" advising " them to eat red meat because of the iron. He gave me a few

studies to support his point. When I pointed out that the first one

found a much higher odds ratio for total meat than for red meat, for

cancer or some such condition, and a much higher odds ratio for total

protein than total meat, which indicates that either plant protein is

worse or fat is protective, he called me a jerk and told me " shove it

up your ass. "

That's the condensed version.

LOL.

Chris

--

Want the other side of the cholesterol story?

Find out what your doctor isn't telling you:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

Chris-

>Well you eat a !@#$-load of iron with all that liver. So do you feel

>confident you're protected from it?

Dunno. I've been considering taking supplemental lactoferrin.

>Bill Sardi dropped me a line to tell me I was killing people by

> " advising " them to eat red meat because of the iron. He gave me a few

>studies to support his point. When I pointed out that the first one

>found a much higher odds ratio for total meat than for red meat, for

>cancer or some such condition, and a much higher odds ratio for total

>protein than total meat, which indicates that either plant protein is

>worse or fat is protective, he called me a jerk and told me " shove it

>up your ass. "

>

>That's the condensed version.

How charming! He obviously needs some more meat and animal fat in his

diet to calm him down and stabilize his emotions. <g/2>

-

[Guest guest]

Chris-

>Well you eat a !@#$-load of iron with all that liver. So do you feel

>confident you're protected from it?

BTW, it may be an overstatement to say that I'm getting _that_ much iron.

According to the USDA database, for whatever that is or isn't worth, 100g

of " beef, variety meats and by-products, liver, raw " contains 4.9mg of

iron. 100g of " beef, top sirloin, separable lean and fat, trimmed to 1/4 "

fat, choice, cooked, pan-fried " contains 3.33mg of iron. 100g of " beef,

short loin, t-bone steak, separable lean and fat, trimmed to 1/4 " fat, USDA

select, raw " contains 3.3mg of iron. And 100g of " game meat, bison, top

round, separable lean only, 1 " steak, raw " contains 2.6mg of iron.

So it doesn't look like that huge a difference. If I weren't eating liver,

I'd be eating some other form of meat and still getting some iron.

Hmm, OTOH, 100g of " beef, ground, 80% lean meat / 20% fat, patty, cooked,

pan-broiled " contains 2.69mg of iron, while 100g of " beef, ground, 80% lean

meat / 20% fat, raw " contains 1.94mg, so depending on the cut, the

difference can be more pronounced.

Then again, 100g of " lamb, variety meats and by-products, heart, raw "

contains 4.6mg of iron and 100g of " lamb, variety meats and by-products,

kidneys, raw " contains _6.38_mg of iron.

On the other side of the ledger, 100g of " lamb, Australian, imported,

fresh, leg, sirloin chops, boneless, separable lean only, trimmed to 1/8 "

fat, raw " contains only 1.94mg of iron.

I'm probably putting too much weight on these dubious statistics, but since

people used to eat a lot more organ meats than they do now, and since at

least some organ meats seem to have a lot more iron than muscle meat, I

don't really think it's likely to be that big a deal, particularly with

some lactoferrin and adequate antioxidants in the diet.

-

[Guest guest]

On 8/23/05, Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> I'm probably putting too much weight on these dubious statistics, but since

> people used to eat a lot more organ meats than they do now, and since at

> least some organ meats seem to have a lot more iron than muscle meat, I

> don't really think it's likely to be that big a deal, particularly with

> some lactoferrin and adequate antioxidants in the diet.

That's my opinion too. But this is the same Bill Sardi who insisted

emphatically to me that Americans eat more vitamin A now than they did

a century ago, because refrigeration has allows us to eat a higher

calorie diet!

I haven't looked into his stuff much, but maybe he is vegetarian? He

brought up a tangent about vegetarianism after browsing my website,

and saying how it was irresponsible for my to generalize from my

unrepresentative experience of vegetarianism to advice for the general

population.

Chris

--

Want the other side of the cholesterol story?

Find out what your doctor isn't telling you:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

Chris-

>But this is the same Bill Sardi who insisted

>emphatically to me that Americans eat more vitamin A now than they did

>a century ago, because refrigeration has allows us to eat a higher

>calorie diet!

Astounding! And yet not. I'm endlessly amazed by what people

believe. Elsewhere on the net I got sucked into a debate with a diabetic

and a doctor. Both are firmly convinced of the evils of cholesterol, the

diabetic despite allegedly reading _The Cholesterol Myths_. And I don't

want to offend the doctor -- he's a friend and a very nice guy -- but what

are you supposed to do when confronted by hard-core wrong-headedness?

>I haven't looked into his stuff much, but maybe he is vegetarian?

I have no idea, but he does pimp a lot of bad ideas, including vegetarianism.

-

[Guest guest]

On 8/23/05, Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> Chris-

>

> >But this is the same Bill Sardi who insisted

> >emphatically to me that Americans eat more vitamin A now than they did

> >a century ago, because refrigeration has allows us to eat a higher

> >calorie diet!

>

> Astounding! And yet not. I'm endlessly amazed by what people

> believe. Elsewhere on the net I got sucked into a debate with a diabetic

> and a doctor. Both are firmly convinced of the evils of cholesterol, the

> diabetic despite allegedly reading _The Cholesterol Myths_. And I don't

> want to offend the doctor -- he's a friend and a very nice guy -- but what

> are you supposed to do when confronted by hard-core wrong-headedness?

And some remain so impossible to budge, as well. In the debate with

Bill Sardi, I showed him a USDA graph showing change in food

availability since 1910. The data only allow for adjusting for food

waste for 1970 and beyond, and the adjusted consumption figure is so

incredibly dramatically lower than the availability figure that it

makes it painfully obvious that we cannot assume an increase in

availability translates to an increase in consumption.

I pointed out that the availability of refrigeration is not a major

factor because prior to refrigeration, methods of preservation were

different. For example, salting (or community sharing) of meats,

fermentation or vinegar pickling of vegetables, making butter and

cheese out of milk, etc. Obviously no one would kill a cow, eat what

they could in a day, and through the rest away!

And I pointed out that since the globalization of the food supply and

the increased reliance on restaurant food, the increase in food waste

is simply astronomical.

Over and over I attempted to explain that the increase in sugar,

bread, high fructose corn syrup, etc, even if representing a total

caloric increase, couldn't possibly make up for the banishment of

liver and cod liver oil.

How did he respond? He gave me a series of Medline abstracts on

vitamin A and osteoperosis.

Like, somehow the infinite number of statements we can make about

vitamin A can be magically assimilated into two: 1) vitamin A is good,

2) vitamin A is bad. Such that, through some sort of transitive

property, we can prove that we eat more vitamin A now (vitamin A is

bad) by showing that it causes osteoperosis (vitamin A is bad), thus

disproving that food waste is higher now (vitamin A is good.)

*scratches head*

Chris

--

Want the other side of the cholesterol story?

Find out what your doctor isn't telling you:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

Google search heme plant iron overload produced

http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-7g.shtml

Excerpt

Iron overload is also common in Ethiopia and the Bantu tribe of South

Africa. Hemochromatosis is not limited to hereditary transmission; it can

occur any time iron is consumed in great excess. Hennigar et al. [1979]

report that iron overload in the Bantu tribe is due to consuming large

amounts of a local alcoholic beverage that is brewed in iron pots. Wapnir

[1990, p. 101] mentions that iron overload in Ethiopia and the Bantu is due

to soil type and use of iron pots and utensils.

Calcium in Masai dairy most likely iron inhibitor from this article.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

Wanita-

>Hennigar et al. [1979]

>report that iron overload in the Bantu tribe is due to consuming large

>amounts of a local alcoholic beverage that is brewed in iron pots. Wapnir

>[1990, p. 101] mentions that iron overload in Ethiopia and the Bantu is due

>to soil type and use of iron pots and utensils.

>

>Calcium in Masai dairy most likely iron inhibitor from this article.

Calcium competes with iron for absorption, but I think it's pretty

significant that iron _pots_ are blamed for Bantu iron overload.

-

[Guest guest]

,

>Hennigar et al. [1979]

> >report that iron overload in the Bantu tribe is due to consuming large

> >amounts of a local alcoholic beverage that is brewed in iron pots. Wapnir

> >[1990, p. 101] mentions that iron overload in Ethiopia and the Bantu is

> due

> >to soil type and use of iron pots and utensils.

> >

> >Calcium in Masai dairy most likely iron inhibitor from this article.

>

> Calcium competes with iron for absorption, but I think it's pretty

> significant that iron _pots_ are blamed for Bantu iron overload.

>

> Not going to give up cast iron pans from this. Alcohol in cast iron, not a

> great idea. Doubt their cast iron is high quality and breaks down easily.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

Wanita-

> > Not going to give up cast iron pans from this.

Then I'd suggest that you supplement with lactoferrin when eating any meal

prepared in cast iron. Better safe than sorry!

-

[Guest guest]

Chris-

>And some remain so impossible to budge, as well. In the debate with

>Bill Sardi,

The thing is, his entire career -- his livelihood -- is founded on his

position. It's hard enough for most people to admit they're wrong, but

when someone's reputation and financial security are at stake, well, it's

an extremely rare person who will change his tune.

>How did he respond? He gave me a series of Medline abstracts on

>vitamin A and osteoperosis.

>

>Like, somehow the infinite number of statements we can make about

>vitamin A can be magically assimilated into two: 1) vitamin A is good,

>2) vitamin A is bad. Such that, through some sort of transitive

>property, we can prove that we eat more vitamin A now (vitamin A is

>bad) by showing that it causes osteoperosis (vitamin A is bad), thus

>disproving that food waste is higher now (vitamin A is good.)

>

>*scratches head*

Like I've said before, the vast majority of people don't make decisions

based on facts, they make them according to their emotions and then they

try to muster facts to defend their decisions. It's depressing.

If you want to be amused and horrified (it seems to me there should be a

German word for the mixed emotions we experience when confronted by the

world's attitudes on health and diet) check out this thread.

http://www.snarkish.com/cgi-bin/forums/ikonboard.cgi?s=7332b2b961a2c757e333feb93\

5413fbc;act=ST;f=21;t=2561;hl=new;st=30

I'm curious to see what responses my latest post elicit, but I'm also

dreading it. I don't have time for pointless arguments.

-