RE: Milk was another weird fasting poop

[Guest guest]

Chris-

>As far as I have been aware of such advice, the advice has been that

>pregnant women should fight the urge to eat more, and have " debunked "

>the " myth " that pregnant women eat for two, when in fact the mother

>and baby " share " nutrients (which is obviously painfully absurd).

Same here. In some circles, in fact, the advice that pregnant women should

not gain much and shouldn't " eat for two " goes way back. It was

well-established when my mom was pregnant with me, and in fact that's what

she was told, but thankfully she ignored it. I think I'm about ten years

older than you are, so this nonsense is anything but new.

>When I was in elementary

>school, whole milk was not even on option. It was skim, or 1%, I

>think. I'm not sure if 2% was available, but I know the " regular "

>milk definitely was NOT whole milk.

I don't remember milk at elementary school (I always brought lunch from

home then, not that it was any good) but in high school I'm pretty sure

that whole milk wasn't an option, but lowfat (or nonfat?) chocolate milk was.

>Well what about the father?

The same, AFAIK. Ferberization is a relatively recent (and harmful)

practice. I'm not sure exactly how far back the root practice of putting

the kid in a separate area goes, but certainly in cave times, the family

slept together.

-

[Guest guest]

Deanna-

>I just read chapter 10 of NAPD. This excerpt is found right before the

>one I cited on the grandma native stimulating lactation without

>pregnancy, as she was doing the native thing. Basically, the situation

>referred to above was indicative of many reservations Price visited. He

>found lots of deaths of adults too at these concentration camps. These

>poor natives were forced to live and eat government foods. I don't

>think the foods were meant to optimize their health, and in fact they

>may have deprived the natives of their vitality on purpose.

Of course the foods weren't meant to optimize health! So what? Do you

think the food most people eat nowadays is meant to optimize their health?

>So I don't think it is a fair representation of the population at large,

>maybe only the prison population at large.

The food they were given was crap. The food prison inmates nowadays are

given is crap. The food most people eat today is crap. There's not a

whole lot of difference among them. If you're going to dredge up prisons

of yore in which rations were a little bread and water or some corn gruel,

then, sure, that food was worse than what most people eat today, but it's

not an especially relevant comparison.

-

[Guest guest]

Irene-

>I think it is presumptuous for anyone to second guess a mothers

>decision to supplement with formula.

Doesn't that depend on the formula?

-

[Guest guest]

,

>Of course the foods weren't meant to optimize health! So what? Do you

>think the food most people eat nowadays is meant to optimize their health?

>

>

No. The food most people that I know in my little neck of the woods eat

processed convenience foods. I don't frequently see pregnant women and

haven't been closely acquainted to one in 3 years.

>The food they were given was crap. The food prison inmates nowadays are

>given is crap. The food most people eat today is crap. There's not a

>whole lot of difference among them. If you're going to dredge up prisons

>of yore in which rations were a little bread and water or some corn gruel,

>then, sure, that food was worse than what most people eat today, but it's

>not an especially relevant comparison.

>

Yes, I think the comparison is relevant. The quote you made (or pasted

from the friend) from page 182 of NAPD referred to babies dying from the

milk of their mothers. I just don't see that happening even in SAD

folks. When babies die of malnutrition in this country, it makes big

headlines. I am sure you remember the family that fed their baby a

vegan diet of nut butters and such instead of breast milk or formula in

Queens a few years ago. Trust me, I lost a baby and it gets

investigated thoroughly for cause. We are not seeing women nursing

babies and the babies subsequently dropping dead in this country in any

representative numbers, even with a crappy diet. Furthermore, I find

the idea that these Aborigines were not* CHOOSING* to feed their babies

rubbish and had to watch them die a real stinker for some idea that

nursing is bad in general. They were force fed camp food by people that

were subjugating them. Even Price says:

" One can scarcely visualize, without observing it, the distress of a

group of people situated as these people are, compelled to live in a

very restricted area, forced to live on food provided by the government,

while they are conscious that if they could return to their normal

habits of life they would regain their health and again enjoy life. "

NAPD, by Price page 179

I think it's safe to say that either 1) the Aborigine concentration camp

diet was vastly more nutrient poor than ours, 2) they couldn't handle

the *FORCED* switch to foods of commerce as readily as others (or had

less time to adapt for whatever reason), and/or 3) there is another

factor like toxicity of supplies/environment that was not known or

considered by Price.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

Deanna-

>Yes, I think the comparison is relevant. The quote you made (or pasted

>from the friend) from page 182 of NAPD referred to babies dying from the

>milk of their mothers. I just don't see that happening even in SAD

>folks.

True, but there are two factors involved: nutrient fortification and modern

medical intervention. Fortification is bad and useless in many ways, but

it does tend to prevent the sort of overt deficiency disease that used to

afflict legions of the very poor. In a way it's just masking major

problems rather than doing anything really useful, but still, it has an effect.

>Furthermore, I find

>the idea that these Aborigines were not* CHOOSING* to feed their babies

>rubbish and had to watch them die a real stinker for some idea that

>nursing is bad in general.

Will everyone please stop with this BS straw man that I or anyone else is

suggesting that " nursing is bad in general " ?

>I think it's safe to say that either 1) the Aborigine concentration camp

>diet was vastly more nutrient poor than ours

Maybe, but I live in the barrio, and based on what I see, I'm not

convinced. Lots of white bread, twinkie-type snack/desserts, hydrogenated

oils, vegetable oils, etc. etc. etc.

-

[Guest guest]

,

>>Furthermore, I find

>>the idea that these Aborigines were not* CHOOSING* to feed their babies

>>rubbish and had to watch them die a real stinker for some idea that

>>nursing is bad in general.

>>

>>

>Will everyone please stop with this BS straw man that I or anyone else is

>suggesting that " nursing is bad in general " ?

>

>

Sorry . I was thinking that using that particular quote from NAPD

was off the mark. I didn't mean you, but I shouldn't have generalized.

>>I think it's safe to say that either 1) the Aborigine concentration camp

>>diet was vastly more nutrient poor than ours

>>

>>

>Maybe, but I live in the barrio, and based on what I see, I'm not

>convinced. Lots of white bread, twinkie-type snack/desserts, hydrogenated

>oils, vegetable oils, etc. etc. etc.

>

Well, I grew up in California and entered the health scene through

fitness in my teens. So I suppose environment plays a big role in what

we perceive average people doing. Out here on the prairie, I have a

really hard time visualizing factory farms when all I see are cows lying

in the shade midday. It is so hot, but at least recent rains have kept

pastures green.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

Deanna-

>Well, I grew up in California and entered the health scene through

>fitness in my teens. So I suppose environment plays a big role in what

>we perceive average people doing.

I guess. I have no idea how things are in Texas, but I know that lots of

California is very slanted towards vegetarianism and the like. The same is

pretty true of NYC, at least in " health food " circles. The middle class

eats tons of junk, but it's nothing compared to what poor people

eat. There's a supermarket directly across the street from my apartment

building. It's convenient for the odd household item, and whenever I go

there I'm viscerally horrified by what I see people buying.

-

[Guest guest]

,

>

>I guess. I have no idea how things are in Texas, but I know that lots of

>California is very slanted towards vegetarianism and the like. The same is

>pretty true of NYC, at least in " health food " circles.

>

Well, I remember in the 1970s (I'm 40 now) that the surf shops by the

beach had avocado and sprout sandwiches on whole wheat with cheese,

smoothies and the like. Then in the 80s, it was the beginning of

chicken and fish and general lowfat diet propaganda. In the 90s I left

and went to many other communities. So honestly, during that time

frame, vegetarianism was a fringe idea and I knew no one that was

totally meat free, even if " we " ate yogurt and bananas, some tofu and such.

Here in TX it's totally different than CA is now, I am sure. This is

cattle country. My doctor says about vegetarian diets: " Why do you

think God put animals on the planet? " I like Texans, but it's a

different country in many ways, lol. In fairness, there is a Ft. Worth

vegetarian society and one vegan restaurant. But that's nothing

compared to your locale, eh?

>The middle class

>eats tons of junk, but it's nothing compared to what poor people

>eat. There's a supermarket directly across the street from my apartment

>building. It's convenient for the odd household item, and whenever I go

>there I'm viscerally horrified by what I see people buying.

>

Yeah, I can understand that. I've lived in towns where you hear gun

shots once a week and the nearby food offerings at little independent

grocers aren't what I would consider real food.

For my rural existence now, I got my chickens from neighbors across the

street. I get 3-5 eggs a day from my 5 hens. There's a goat farm at

the end of the road, horses breeding is at the other end. We have a

small 2 acres compared to most places nearby. Basically, I pass by

dozens of livestock operations before I ever hit a market.

Deanna