Re: Further data points on oatmeal weirdness

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

----------------------------

August 24, 2005

>Hi Heidi Jean:

>

>In fact, tapioca is flour made from manioc, which is a tuber, as you

>know. I agree that starches are a lot more digestible when you eat

>them as tubers rather than grains. However, I've heard paleo people

>complain about the potato, as if it were too heavy for them to digest

>it. Well I never! Can you believe that?

Right. Potatoes used to be quite toxic ... they are a member of

the nightshade family. They were bred to be less toxic, but

some toxins still reside in their skins if they go green. Manioc

was quite toxic, I've read, and the natives had to do a lot

of processing to extract just the starch. I do eat both tapioca

and potatoes though. I disagree with a lot of the Paleo people

about tubers, and about sweet fruit. Some of them claim that both

were rare in the distant past, but my take is that both were and

are very common in the wild, even before they became " highly

bred " . Though the potato and manioc were toxic, some other tubers are not,

offer a lot of easy calories for little work, and are commonly

eaten by wild animals. I think we can assume early humans ate

them too.

>I can eat meats or eggs at breakfast, when I eat at breakfast, but

>fish seems so unusual. But I know that the traditional Japanese

>breakfast includes fish and also soup.

Fish gets your brain going. I can't say that I DO eat fish

for breakfast ... too much work for me at that hour ... but

I have in the past and it works great. Now that I have

my balsamic ceviche maybe I'll start it up again.

>In my case, breakfast must include a warm beverage. Have some coffee?

But of course!

-- Heidi

August 24, 2005

On 8/24/05, José- s Barbosa <jcmbarbosa52@...> wrote:

> Hi Heidi Jean:

>

> In fact, tapioca is flour made from manioc, which is a tuber, as you

> know. I agree that starches are a lot more digestible when you eat

> them as tubers rather than grains. However, I've heard paleo people

> complain about the potato, as if it were too heavy for them to digest

> it. Well I never! Can you believe that?

I can tolerate the 100% rye European sourdough that Whole Foods sells

quite fine (at least based on perceptible symptoms), whereas I find

potatoes are likely to give me gas and rumbling and whatnot. So I

don't think that, at least for me, grains are necessarily worse than

other starches. Granted, without proper preparation they might be,

and Ezekiel bread, which is all sprouted, but has wheat and soy in it,

is at least as problematic as potatoes for me it seems.

The European sourdough rye and bottle-conditioned beer have been more

or less my only gluten for a year or two (with a few periods where I

went on to other things, so not continuously). The beer gives me a

bloat, though selected non-bottle-conditioned beers give me diarrhea,

but the sourdough rye doesn't seem too bad. Nevertheless, I'm off all

starches right now for a while, to help maintain the gut healing that

the fasting hopefully jump-started.

I would like to reintroduce the European sourdough rye at some point,

as I love it, and is great for burgers. I really will miss eating

burgers topped with bacon between two pieces of buttered sourdough rye

toast. But I'm thinking that before I do that, I should come up with

the money to get tested for gluten intolerance, and then test antibody

levels after reintroducing the sourdough rye if I *am* gluten

intolerant.

Or, maybe by that time someone will come up with some sourdough rye

that is tested for gluten and guaranteed gluten free or something.

Chris

--

Want the other side of the cholesterol story?

Find out what your doctor isn't telling you:

August 24, 2005

On 8/24/05, Suze Fisher <s.fisher22@...> wrote:

> Lynn, AFAIK, the woozy fog is characteristic of a food allergy. I'm

> allergic

> to cow's milk, and had some sheep milk kefir yesterday (fermented for a

> week) and got that woozy fog. I don't seem to get that woozy fog if I take

> my DPP IV enzyme with it though, which breaks down the opioid peptides in

> casein.

How long have you been off fasting? This is the seond week for me,

and I'm not even planning on reintroducing raw egg yolks for a couple

more weeks. I figured I would wait months before introducing non-cow

raw fermented milk.

My thought is that milk should be banished entirely until the healing

process is nearing completion, which probably takes a long time.

Introducing other types of milk with a damaged gut could result in an

allergy that we might not necessarily have inherently.

Right now I'm basically on an egg-free dairy-free nut-free version of

the SCD. And some say the SCD is too restrictive! LOL!

I did gorge on nuts when I realized I couldn't tolerate them, because

I didn't want the nuts I already had bought hanging around the house

forever. But I've been nut-free for about a week. You, from your

story, apparently don't digest nuts either.

For my pleasure food, I have developed two forms of chocolate desserts:

The first is a type of hot fudge, which is made from an equal amount

of pure chocolate and ghee (ounce to tablespoon) with a heaping

teaspoon of raw honey per unit of the former combo. I melt it all

together, then let it cool until " warm, " and eat with a spoon. I'm

considering trying this on fruit, such as strawberries, or pineapple,

which I happen to have in the house now. It is great alone, and

probably good with those.

The second, which I invented today, was 3 ounces pure chocolate, I'm

guessing about 3 T ghee, 3 heaping teaspoons raw honey, a capful of

vanilla extract, and then dried, shredded, unsweetened coconut, by the

handful until the mixture was saturated with coconut. This was mixed

thoroughly, and then flattened on a saucer and refrigerated. Then I

peeled up pieces with a knife or spoon to eat with my hands. Yum!

Other than that, I only eat meat, fats (ghee, VCO, EVOO), fruits, and

vegetables. I also use a 2-year fermented wheat-free tamari, and some

supplements (Primal Defense, acetyl-l-carnitine r-lipoic acid). I also

have decaf coffee, black, with a teaspoon of honey and a few dashes of

cinnamon. Oh, and red wine.

Every meal I take 6 capsules HCl/betaine, half after 2 or 3 bites and

half half-way, ending with two pancreatin capsules.

It's going well so far, and with the coffee and chocolate, those offer

comfort foods that keep me from what WOULD become deprivation insanity

were I to do such an austere diet without any sort of comfort food.

Chris

--

Want the other side of the cholesterol story?

Find out what your doctor isn't telling you:

August 24, 2005

On 8/24/05, Suze Fisher <s.fisher22@...> wrote:

> Lynn, AFAIK, the woozy fog is characteristic of a food allergy. I'm

> allergic

> to cow's milk, and had some sheep milk kefir yesterday (fermented for a

> week) and got that woozy fog. I don't seem to get that woozy fog if I take

> my DPP IV enzyme with it though, which breaks down the opioid peptides in

> casein.

Oh: do sheep produce A2 casein? How do you interpret this experience

within the framework of A1/A2?

Chris

--

Want the other side of the cholesterol story?

Find out what your doctor isn't telling you:

August 24, 2005

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of Heidi

>>I can eat meats or eggs at breakfast, when I eat at breakfast, but

>>fish seems so unusual. But I know that the traditional Japanese

>>breakfast includes fish and also soup.

>

>Fish gets your brain going. I can't say that I DO eat fish

>for breakfast ... too much work for me at that hour ... but

>I have in the past and it works great. Now that I have

>my balsamic ceviche maybe I'll start it up again.

I often eat ceviche for breakfast, usually using Sockeye salmon or Maine

shrimp. Partly because it's so easy to prepare since the fish or shrimp is

already soaked in lemon juice (from the night before). I just chop a few

veggies and toss 'em in. Le voila!

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

----------------------------

August 24, 2005

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of Masterjohn

>

>On 8/24/05, Suze Fisher <s.fisher22@...> wrote:

>

>> Lynn, AFAIK, the woozy fog is characteristic of a food allergy. I'm

>> allergic

>> to cow's milk, and had some sheep milk kefir yesterday (fermented for a

>> week) and got that woozy fog. I don't seem to get that woozy fog

>if I take

>> my DPP IV enzyme with it though, which breaks down the opioid peptides in

>> casein.

>

>How long have you been off fasting?

Since Saturday. I did 6 days of water only, and added clear veggie broth on

day 7.

Now looking at what I wrote, I think I was wrong about there even being

opioid peptides in sheep's milk. However, it's true that I only felt that

woozy feeling a couple of times and certainly not when I take the enzymes.

For the first three days everything I ate/drank gave me gut pain, even the

clear veggie broth! I couldn't even think about eating solid foods, hence

bone broth, sheep kefir and yogurt. I'm battling candida, so I'm *loading*

up with probiotics, which is one reason I decided to do the kefir and yogurt

(which contains 7 probiotic strains). I also have 5 gallons of EM that I'll

be bottling in a few days, AND commercial probiotics on top of that AND I

ordered probiotic enema implants. And I just made a 2 qt. jar of kimchi. Do

you suppose I have my bases covered? <g>

This is the seond week for me,

>and I'm not even planning on reintroducing raw egg yolks for a couple

>more weeks. I figured I would wait months before introducing non-cow

>raw fermented milk.

I think I have a problem with eggs so they are off the menu for now. I'm not

sure if I'm going to stick with the kefir/yogurt or not. The more I read

about the A1/A2 issue though, the more I'm inclined to think the Enterolab

test is for A1 casein. Not that it doesn't mean one can't also develop an

allergy to A2, but that's a big question mark in my mind. I had some goat

chevre today as well, but had absolutely no perceptible reaction. During my

fast I thought about cheese alot for some reason, even though I've never

been a big cheese person.

>

>My thought is that milk should be banished entirely until the healing

>process is nearing completion, which probably takes a long time.

>Introducing other types of milk with a damaged gut could result in an

>allergy that we might not necessarily have inherently.

I thought of that. I guess it's a little late for that though, because I was

consuming these things for a while when my gut was already damaged. But I do

always take my DPP IV with them. I believe candida is at the root of my gut

problems. And so my focus is mainly on getting rid of it, which is I'm

loading up on probiotics of all stripes. And why I can't eat all that honey

that you are using as a comfort food. There IS some maple syrup in the

yogurt I get, but not much. I stopped drinking decaf coffee months ago,

although I love it too. I just didn't like it with canned coconut milk in

it. I'm going to make my own coconut cream tomorrow from a coconut, and if

it's good, I might try it in decaf for a treat.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

----------------------------

August 24, 2005

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of Masterjohn

>

>On 8/24/05, Suze Fisher <s.fisher22@...> wrote:

>

>> Lynn, AFAIK, the woozy fog is characteristic of a food allergy. I'm

>> allergic

>> to cow's milk, and had some sheep milk kefir yesterday (fermented for a

>> week) and got that woozy fog. I don't seem to get that woozy fog

>if I take

>> my DPP IV enzyme with it though, which breaks down the opioid peptides in

>> casein.

>

>Oh: do sheep produce A2 casein? How do you interpret this experience

>within the framework of A1/A2?

They effectively produce only A2 according to the author of the article I

posted earlier. I believe it is not *identical* to cow's milk A2, but does

not have histidine at postion 67 like A1, so he said something to the effect

that it's essentially the same as cow's A2. I've read this in many other

places, although I think there's a lot of guessing, speculation, and

paraphrasing other sites going on.

I don't really have enough info to interpret it to any significant degree.

But I keep reading that folks who can't tolerate A1 often *can* tolerate A2,

including autistic kids by some accounts.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

----------------------------

August 24, 2005

>

Chris:

>I can tolerate the 100% rye European sourdough that Whole Foods sells

>quite fine (at least based on perceptible symptoms), whereas I find

>potatoes are likely to give me gas and rumbling and whatnot. So I

>don't think that, at least for me, grains are necessarily worse than

>other starches. Granted, without proper preparation they might be,

>and Ezekiel bread, which is all sprouted, but has wheat and soy in it,

>is at least as problematic as potatoes for me it seems.

>

>The European sourdough rye and bottle-conditioned beer have been more

>or less my only gluten for a year or two (with a few periods where I

>went on to other things, so not continuously). The beer gives me a

>bloat, though selected non-bottle-conditioned beers give me diarrhea,

>but the sourdough rye doesn't seem too bad. Nevertheless, I'm off all

>starches right now for a while, to help maintain the gut healing that

>the fasting hopefully jump-started.

I DO wish there was a better way to tell which

foods are problematic, and why! Back when I

was doing food testing, potatoes gave me a

fast heartbeat, which might indicate a nightshade

problem (and given that nightshades are among

my favorite foods, that isn't a good sign).

But is it the starch, or the alkaloids, or the proteins? How would I know?

True sourdough is thought to be a lot less

problematic, which jibes with both tradition

and anecdotes. But in long-term studies, the " very

low gluten " nonsymptomatic folks don't seem

to do as well healthwise as the " zero tolerance NO

gluten " folks, so I'm guessing more studies need

to be done (plus all the studies are on celiacs, not

people who are maybe just a little gluten intolerant).

I'd guess there is a large range of reactivities, but

since " symptoms " are so subtle or nonexistent

it's hard to know what to do.

>I would like to reintroduce the European sourdough rye at some point,

>as I love it, and is great for burgers. I really will miss eating

>burgers topped with bacon between two pieces of buttered sourdough rye

>toast. But I'm thinking that before I do that, I should come up with

>the money to get tested for gluten intolerance, and then test antibody

>levels after reintroducing the sourdough rye if I *am* gluten

>intolerant.

Yes. Because if you stop eating gluten, you will

never get an accurate test. Actually if the only

gluten you eat is rye bread and beer, and you

are in decent health, you might not get a good

test anyway. The main gluten I WAS eating was

Wasa rye crisps and porter beer, and my IgA levels

came out fairly low (I wasn't all that sick either,

by " doctor standards " ... migraines, joint problems,

high blood pressure, fast heartbeat, dry mouth etc.

are all standard at my age).

>Or, maybe by that time someone will come up with some sourdough rye

>that is tested for gluten and guaranteed gluten free or something.

They already have some in the works. Actually I think

rye is a LOT less problematic than wheat, esp.

if it's soured. But they have a special bacteria that

seems to break down the peptide in question and

produce a bread that doesn't act allergenic even in

vitro.

My guess though is that there will be a " new " wheat

in the next decade or two that doesn't have the

villanous peptide in it. Might be too late for us folks

who react to anything even close to that peptide but

you young'uns can have bread again ...

-- Heidi

August 24, 2005

On 8/24/05, Suze Fisher <s.fisher22@...> wrote:

> For the first three days everything I ate/drank gave me gut pain, even the

> clear veggie broth! I couldn't even think about eating solid foods, hence

> bone broth, sheep kefir and yogurt. I'm battling candida, so I'm *loading*

> up with probiotics, which is one reason I decided to do the kefir and

> yogurt

> (which contains 7 probiotic strains). I also have 5 gallons of EM that I'll

> be bottling in a few days, AND commercial probiotics on top of that AND I

> ordered probiotic enema implants. And I just made a 2 qt. jar of kimchi. Do

> you suppose I have my bases covered? <g>

I see your strategy, but I suspect the dairy is counterproductive even

if fermented. For example, I don't think I ever got any probiotic

benefit from kefired milk, which I think really helped me in terms of

sleep and teeth, but really damaged my gut (paradoxically, since that

supports a reductionist approach to health that is against my

inclinations.) On the other hand, it seemed like kefired young

coconut water was very helpful to my gut. I wonder if you should try

a non-dairy kefir?

> I think I have a problem with eggs so they are off the menu for now. I'm

> not

> sure if I'm going to stick with the kefir/yogurt or not.

Well if you got the big woozy feeling from it, I don't see how you

could conclude that you might not have problems with it. I would

consider " woozy " a problem.

> The more I read

> about the A1/A2 issue though, the more I'm inclined to think the Enterolab

> test is for A1 casein. Not that it doesn't mean one can't also develop an

> allergy to A2, but that's a big question mark in my mind.

I think it would be pretty easy if you have a damaged gut. For

example, people with leaky guts develop allergies to almost everything

they eat. When I was a baby, I couldn't even tolerate fruits and

vegetables!

> I had some goat

> chevre today as well, but had absolutely no perceptible reaction. During my

> fast I thought about cheese alot for some reason, even though I've never

> been a big cheese person.

Interesting. Did you need enzymes for it? My general strategy has

been to eliminate the things that I think I may have any problem with.

Cheese seems to be ok with enough HCl sometimes, and other times

results in rumbling or gas, so it's out completely. Sometimes

symptoms are hard to notice, especially if you're used to having

symptoms (I was in denial about milk for a couple years, since my

digestion was so vastly better than pre-NT, despite still sucking),

and as we know from gluten, sometimes damage is asymptomatic.

> >My thought is that milk should be banished entirely until the healing

> >process is nearing completion, which probably takes a long time.

> >Introducing other types of milk with a damaged gut could result in an

> >allergy that we might not necessarily have inherently.

> I thought of that. I guess it's a little late for that though, because I

> was consuming these things for a while when my gut was already damaged.

I don't know enough about allergy development to know whether or not

that's good reasoning. Isn't it possible that the allergy would take

on more permanent characteristics or worsen in magnitude, the greater

the magnitude and duration of the allergen exposure?

> But I do always take my DPP IV with them. I believe candida is at the root of

my > gut problems. And so my focus is mainly on getting rid of it, which is I'm

> loading up on probiotics of all stripes. And why I can't eat all that

> honey that you are using as a comfort food. There IS some maple syrup in the

> yogurt I get, but not much. I stopped drinking decaf coffee months ago,

> although I love it too. I just didn't like it with canned coconut milk in

> it. I'm going to make my own coconut cream tomorrow from a coconut, and if

> it's good, I might try it in decaf for a treat.

Are you sure that lactic acid is that toxic to candida? I think I

have fungal issues too, but candida diets are supposed to be

dairy-free for whatever reason, and free of some particular fermented

foods, especially yeast-fermented. I went on an anti-candida diet for

a month once that drove me insane and did nothing to clear up my

symptoms. In any case, kefir is loaded with carbs, since lactic acid

is for any practical purpose a carb. I'm wondering whether the lactic

acid is metabolically active for the candida, and just how toxic it

is. I'm also wondering if asymptomatic gut damage could outweigh the

probiotic benefit.

I don't see how you can have coffee but can't have honey. Coffee has

9 grams of carbs per cup, and honey has 4 or 5 per teaspoon. Coconut

milk and I think coconut cream also have carbs.

I'm not suggesting you add honey into your diet. I'm not really sure

what the net effect would be. Honey has antibiotic properties, but

it's also sugar. Bruce Fife's VCO fast is supposed to be dramatically

more useful in a week than an anti-candida diet for a couple months,

and you can get up to 2000 calories a day on it, although it induces

lots of diarrhea. Of course it's probably not in order, given your

recent water-fasting.

But I suspect fatty acids, especially medium-chain, are probably

better for anti-candida then lactic acid, which is essentially a

carbohydrate.

Chris

--

Want the other side of the cholesterol story?

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August 24, 2005

>But I keep reading that folks who can't tolerate A1 often *can* tolerate A2,

>including autistic kids by some accounts.

>

>Suze Fisher

I know one lady who can tolerate goat milk kefir just fine, but not

goat milk and not anything with cow milk. I haven't tried goat

milk kefir, but goat milk gave me the " chills " big time (and

it was very fresh from a grass fed goat next door).

The problem with the immune system is that once it gets

set off by one peptide, it can " associate " a bunch of related

peptides into the same bucket. Like, if you catch a cold,

you won't get that virus again AND you won't get some viruses

that " look like " the strain you just got. Or if you caught cowpox

in the old days you wouldn't catch smallpox.

So maybe if you ONLY got A1 protein you'd be ok, but if your

system has decided A2 is really bad it might dislike A1 by

association. I suspect (no proof at all) that this might be

one reason why folks who ate rye and barley mainly didn't

end up with major problems, but once they started eating

wheat, rye and barley started being problematic also.

-- Heidi

August 24, 2005

On 8/24/05, Heidi <heidis@...> wrote:

>

> I DO wish there was a better way to tell which

> foods are problematic, and why! Back when I

> was doing food testing, potatoes gave me a

> fast heartbeat, which might indicate a nightshade

> problem (and given that nightshades are among

> my favorite foods, that isn't a good sign).

> But is it the starch, or the alkaloids, or the proteins? How would I know?

Good point. My mom has problems with nightshades.

> Yes. Because if you stop eating gluten, you will

> never get an accurate test.

I thought with the enterlabs testing you could test while not on gluten?

> Actually if the only

> gluten you eat is rye bread and beer, and you

> are in decent health, you might not get a good

> test anyway.

Well I'm not using either right now, and the beer seems to give me a

bloat and some tummy rumbling, unlike wine. I'm not sure how to

measure " good health. " I don't get the sense that my intestines are

in good health, although I seem to be doing well with my egg-free

dairy-free nut-free SCD with loads of HCl and enzymes. But my lower

abdomen is still distended when relaxed, which indicates a health

problem to me.

All the previous talking of fecal matter before and suddenly I had to

go... seemed very healthy: just firm enough to be very full-formed

with integrity, otherwise mildly soft, extremely dark brown, no bits

of pieces of anything in it like a few days ago (I think those were

the nuts I ate!), and the smell was not only mild, but almost

pleasant. LOL! So all the digestive supplements and an austere diet

seem to be giving me pretty good digestive health. Though I imagine I

could slip back easily by diverging from my diet.

By the way... a week or two before my fast I found what appeared to be

some blood in my stools. I don't remember whether I mentioned that on

list or not. But that's pretty bad, isn't it? So again, I'm not sure

I would say I'm " healthy. "

> The main gluten I WAS eating was

> Wasa rye crisps and porter beer, and my IgA levels

> came out fairly low (I wasn't all that sick either,

> by " doctor standards " ... migraines, joint problems,

> high blood pressure, fast heartbeat, dry mouth etc.

> are all standard at my age).

Right. I hate this idea of " aging. " At a family get-together last

night my uncle's " aging-induced " gut was discussed. Grr.

No teeth. Well, that's middle age for you. When I was 17 I asked the

opthamologist what would've happened in my body that I suddenly needed

glasses, and he said, " Well, you're just getting older. "

> >Or, maybe by that time someone will come up with some sourdough rye

> >that is tested for gluten and guaranteed gluten free or something.

> They already have some in the works. Actually I think

> rye is a LOT less problematic than wheat, esp.

> if it's soured. But they have a special bacteria that

> seems to break down the peptide in question and

> produce a bread that doesn't act allergenic even in

> vitro.

Right. So I'm thinking maybe by the time I can start eating starches

again, they'll have this bread out.

Chris

--

Want the other side of the cholesterol story?

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http://www.carb-counter.org/beverages/search/Coffee/1400

August 24, 2005

>I thought with the enterlabs testing you could test while not on gluten?

They can, but the IgA levels still go down gradually. And for

folks like me (who had a very love-hate relationship with

wheat for 20 years) I don't think the results are all that

accurate, since they are comparing them to " average "

Americans who eat like 200 lbs of the stuff a year.

>Well I'm not using either right now, and the beer seems to give me a

>bloat and some tummy rumbling, unlike wine. I'm not sure how to

>measure " good health. " I don't get the sense that my intestines are

>in good health, although I seem to be doing well with my egg-free

>dairy-free nut-free SCD with loads of HCl and enzymes. But my lower

>abdomen is still distended when relaxed, which indicates a health

>problem to me.

I think it takes a long time for digestion to return to optimal.

I'm not sure mine is optimal yet ... it's a lot better and rumbling

is a thing of the past (the family used to tease me about all

the noise my gut made).

>By the way... a week or two before my fast I found what appeared to be

>some blood in my stools. I don't remember whether I mentioned that on

>list or not. But that's pretty bad, isn't it? So again, I'm not sure

>I would say I'm " healthy. "

If it's overt blood then it's from the lower intestine ... I get that

when I have a gluten " accident " (which in my case usually

means eating out: I don't eat any on purpose, ever) and seems

to be from extreme irritation to the gut or " rectal fissures " or

hemorhoids. It doesn't always mean something VERY bad

is going on though.

>Right. I hate this idea of " aging. " At a family get-together last

>night my uncle's " aging-induced " gut was discussed. Grr.

Grr indeed. Some doctors talk about " age induced blunting

of the villi " . I mean really! Those villi regenerate in *days* or

maybe weeks if you are older, but it's not like they wear out

over the years.

>No teeth. Well, that's middle age for you.

Oh that's sad.

>Right. So I'm thinking maybe by the time I can start eating starches

>again, they'll have this bread out.

Yep. There's some pretty good GF bread out there already

though. I pigged out on it for awhile, out of a sense of

being deprived, I guess, then remembered I just don't

like bread much.

>-- Heidi

August 25, 2005

>> Coffee has

9 grams of carbs per cup <<

where did you get this? Coffee - black coffee - has only trace carbs,

less than one per cup.

Christie

Caber Feidh ish Deerhounds

Holistically Raising Our Dogs Since 1986

http://www.caberfeidh.com/

http://www.doggedblog.com/

August 25, 2005

On 8/25/05, Christie <christiekeith@...> wrote:

> >> Coffee has

> 9 grams of carbs per cup <<

>

> where did you get this? Coffee - black coffee - has only trace carbs,

> less than one per cup.

I got it from Barry Sears, a long time ago, but I see the USDA agrees

and coffee is carb-free. I stand corrected.

Chris

--

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August 25, 2005

Chris-

>When I was 17 I asked the

>opthamologist what would've happened in my body that I suddenly needed

>glasses, and he said, " Well, you're just getting older. "

This " getting older " business has got to be one of the most pernicious

memes out there. All sorts of absurd health problems are blamed on age. I

know a guy who works out rigorously and keeps himself in the best shape

possible (he used to even a own a gym) but believes in mainstream

nutrition, and when he turned 40 he said he couldn't believe how miserable

aging was. As if a fit 40yo guy should be dragging himself around and

having all sorts of health problems!

-

August 25, 2005

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of Masterjohn

>

>On 8/24/05, Suze Fisher <s.fisher22@...> wrote:

>

>> For the first three days everything I ate/drank gave me gut

>pain, even the

>> clear veggie broth! I couldn't even think about eating solid foods, hence

>> bone broth, sheep kefir and yogurt. I'm battling candida, so I'm

>*loading*

>> up with probiotics, which is one reason I decided to do the kefir and

>> yogurt

>> (which contains 7 probiotic strains). I also have 5 gallons of

>EM that I'll

>> be bottling in a few days, AND commercial probiotics on top of that AND I

>> ordered probiotic enema implants. And I just made a 2 qt. jar of

>kimchi. Do

>> you suppose I have my bases covered? <g>

>

>I see your strategy, but I suspect the dairy is counterproductive even

>if fermented. For example, I don't think I ever got any probiotic

>benefit from kefired milk, which I think really helped me in terms of

>sleep and teeth, but really damaged my gut (paradoxically, since that

>supports a reductionist approach to health that is against my

>inclinations.) On the other hand, it seemed like kefired young

>coconut water was very helpful to my gut. I wonder if you should try

>a non-dairy kefir?

First, I have already taken into consideration most of what you wrote about

dairy, but wanted to try fermented sheeps milk products nonetheless to see

where I'm at with it. As far as other kefired products, the only thing

available to me are fruit juices, but that's a load of unneccessary sugar in

the form of lactic acid with very little other benefit except the probiotics

which I'm getting from other sources. I'm actually just going to eat my

kefir beer grains and call it a day on kefir for a while.

>

>> I think I have a problem with eggs so they are off the menu for now. I'm

>> not

>> sure if I'm going to stick with the kefir/yogurt or not.

>

>Well if you got the big woozy feeling from it, I don't see how you

>could conclude that you might not have problems with it. I would

>consider " woozy " a problem.

I didn't conclude that.

>

>> The more I read

>> about the A1/A2 issue though, the more I'm inclined to think the

>Enterolab

>> test is for A1 casein. Not that it doesn't mean one can't also develop an

>> allergy to A2, but that's a big question mark in my mind.

>

>I think it would be pretty easy if you have a damaged gut. For

>example, people with leaky guts develop allergies to almost everything

>they eat. When I was a baby, I couldn't even tolerate fruits and

>vegetables!

Right, but I assume those are IgE and IgGs? These are the type that result

from leaky gut since these reactions take place in the bloodstream. My main

concern is IgAs which take place in the gut itself. I don't know if leaky

gut affects IgA allergies or not, but it doesn't have the direct link that

it does to IgEs and IgGs, AFAIK, in that it doesn't require the gut to leak

in order for an IgA allergy to develop, I don't think. Again, I think all my

allergies started with candida, which has a protein *like* gliadin and I

think I began to cross-react to gliadin which was mistaken for candida,

which would be something the immuen system *should* react to. Then came

casein, etc. At least that's my current thinking.

>

>> I had some goat

>> chevre today as well, but had absolutely no perceptible

>reaction. During my

>> fast I thought about cheese alot for some reason, even though I've never

>> been a big cheese person.

>

>Interesting. Did you need enzymes for it?

I don't know. I just take them with any dairy. According to Dr. Shaw,

theoretically if one takes enough DPP IV enzymes they shouldn't have any

problem with casein or gluten.

>

>> >My thought is that milk should be banished entirely until the healing

>> >process is nearing completion, which probably takes a long time.

>> >Introducing other types of milk with a damaged gut could result in an

>> >allergy that we might not necessarily have inherently.

>

>> I thought of that. I guess it's a little late for that though, because I

>> was consuming these things for a while when my gut was already damaged.

>

>I don't know enough about allergy development to know whether or not

>that's good reasoning. Isn't it possible that the allergy would take

>on more permanent characteristics or worsen in magnitude, the greater

>the magnitude and duration of the allergen exposure?

Quite possibly.

>

>> But I do always take my DPP IV with them. I believe candida is

>at the root of my > gut problems. And so my focus is mainly on

>getting rid of it, which is I'm

>> loading up on probiotics of all stripes. And why I can't eat all that

>> honey that you are using as a comfort food. There IS some maple

>syrup in the

>> yogurt I get, but not much. I stopped drinking decaf coffee months ago,

>> although I love it too. I just didn't like it with canned coconut milk in

>> it. I'm going to make my own coconut cream tomorrow from a

>coconut, and if

>> it's good, I might try it in decaf for a treat.

>

>Are you sure that lactic acid is that toxic to candida?

No, I didn't mention anything about lactic acid, it's the bacteria

themselves that help rid the gut of candida.

I think I

>have fungal issues too, but candida diets are supposed to be

>dairy-free for whatever reason, and free of some particular fermented

>foods, especially yeast-fermented.

Depends on whom you listen to. I think dairy is generally forbidden due to

the carb content. But I don't think they were thinking of sheeps milk which

has *double* the fat of even Jersey milk, LOL

I went on an anti-candida diet for

>a month once that drove me insane and did nothing to clear up my

>symptoms. In any case, kefir is loaded with carbs, since lactic acid

>is for any practical purpose a carb. I'm wondering whether the lactic

>acid is metabolically active for the candida, and just how toxic it

>is. I'm also wondering if asymptomatic gut damage could outweigh the

>probiotic benefit.

Possibly. But again, Sheep kefir with an 8-9% fat content isn't really

" loaded " with carbs, I'd think, although I haven't done any calculations.

I'm not doing a no-carb diet, but rather moderate carbs. My focus is on

super-loading probiotics, although I'm starting on oregano oil soon too,

which I find to be very effective.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

----------------------------

August 25, 2005

On 8/25/05, Suze Fisher <s.fisher22@...> wrote:

> Right, but I assume those are IgE and IgGs?

That's my (weak) understanding.

> These are the type that result

> from leaky gut since these reactions take place in the bloodstream. My main

> concern is IgAs which take place in the gut itself. I don't know if leaky

> gut affects IgA allergies or not, but it doesn't have the direct link that

> it does to IgEs and IgGs, AFAIK, in that it doesn't require the gut to leak

> in order for an IgA allergy to develop, I don't think. Again, I think all

> my allergies started with candida, which has a protein *like* gliadin and I

> think I began to cross-react to gliadin which was mistaken for candida,

> which would be something the immuen system *should* react to. Then came

> casein, etc. At least that's my current thinking.

Right, but any allergies are bad. I'm suggesting it is best to play

it on the safe side and avoid any common allergens during the healing

phase, so that the development of those other allergies doesn't

1)hinder the healing process and 2) lengthen your inability to eat

them beyond the gut-healing stage.

> >Are you sure that lactic acid is that toxic to candida?

>

> No, I didn't mention anything about lactic acid, it's the bacteria

> themselves that help rid the gut of candida.

Right... but if the lactic acid isn't toxic to the candida, or isn't

very toxic to the candida, it could be *feeding* the candida as much

as any monosacharide. You had said you were using dairy because you

couldn't afford the amount of honey I was using in my comfort foods

(which is actually pretty small), but what I'm getting at is that do

we actually know that honey, both a source of sugar and antibiotic

compounds, is more likely to fuel the growth of candida than kefir?

(By the way, I'm wondering but am not sure if chocolate might have

anti-fungal properties like coffee apparently does.)

> I think I

> >have fungal issues too, but candida diets are supposed to be

> >dairy-free for whatever reason, and free of some particular fermented

> >foods, especially yeast-fermented.

>

> Depends on whom you listen to. I think dairy is generally forbidden due to

> the carb content. But I don't think they were thinking of sheeps milk which

> has *double* the fat of even Jersey milk, LOL

I went on an anti-candida diet of Russ Newman (ND, I think) who was

adamantly against using even butter. Unfortunately, he was not the

type to fully explain himself, and more the type to just tell you what

to do. But he insisted that using butter would lessen the

effectiveness of the program.

So, while they might be wrong, it is dairy itself, and not the carbs

in dairy, that at least some anti-candida diets oppose. And if it

were the carbs, they would all allow raw cheese, which doesn't have

carbs.

> Possibly. But again, Sheep kefir with an 8-9% fat content isn't really

> " loaded " with carbs, I'd think, although I haven't done any calculations.

> I'm not doing a no-carb diet, but rather moderate carbs. My focus is on

> super-loading probiotics, although I'm starting on oregano oil soon too,

> which I find to be very effective.

I'm not sure if you can assume the fat content of the kefir based on

the fat content of the fresh milk, but the fat content says nothing

about the carb content whatsoever. Fat content could be higher

entirely or partly from increased solid to water ratio. Besides, the

point I was getting at was whether or not it was comparable to honey.

And I'm quite positive that, if lactic acid is effectively a carb as

far as candida is concerned (I don't know if this assumption is true),

then sheep milk kefir is not any less carby than my chocolate snacks,

where the calories overwhelmingly come from ghee, or in the other

case, ghee and coconut fat.

Chris

--

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