Re: Re: immune reaction to peptides ( was Further data points on oatmeal weirdness)

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>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of Masterjohn

>On 8/25/05, Suze Fisher <s.fisher22@...> wrote:

>

>> >[quoting Heidi]

>> >So maybe if you ONLY got A1 protein you'd be ok, but if your

>> >system has decided A2 is really bad it might dislike A1 by

>> >association.

>

>> [suze]

>> It doesn't seem to work this way in regards to the reaction to milk

>> proteins

>> by autistic and schizophrenic folks though. From what I've read, the

>> problem

>> with A1 cow's milk is that histidine is in position 67, (due to a genetic

>> mutation) and because of this (although I don't know the mechanism) the

>> opioid peptide, Beta-casomorphin-7 (BCM7), which is a 7 aa peptide with

>> proline in key positions, gets released. For folks like many

>autistic kids

>> and schizophrenics, who don't have adequate DPP IV enzymes which

>hydrolize

>> BCM7, the BCM7 peptide, gets into the bloodstream and thus into the brain

>> where it exerts its opioid effects.

>

>But those are opioid effects. Is that not entirely separate from the

>immune response?

Yes those are opioid effects which is why I specifically said so, so as not

to confuse them with the immune reaction Heidi is talking about. Perhaps I

should've chose a more appropriate subject line.

As to whether it's separate from teh immune reaction, I don't know. At

first, I thought that BCM 7 was not the same peptide involved in an IgA

reaction to casein, but now I'm not so sure. I haven't seen anything yet to

indicate that it's not the same peptide that is problematic for Celiacs,

although I think Heidi has mentioned something about a 33 AA chain being the

reactive one? I'm not sure if these are tied together in any way or not.

Generally, from what I understand, some folks who have neurologial reactions

to gluteomorphin and caseomorphin don't have any sort of gut damage, and

vice versa. And some have both, like Heidi, I think. There seems to be a

spectrum of reactions to these peptides and they could well be reactions to

different portions of it, I just really don't know. Maybe Heidi does?

>

>> In A2 cows milk *proline* is in position 67, which does NOT break down to

>> BCM7. So it supposedly shouldn't have the opioid effects of A1

>milk. As far

>> as I can tell, all species have different milk proteins so no

>other species

>> would have the same AA sequence as in A1 cow's milk, so perhaps no other

>> milk would produce opioid peptides such as this mutant protein does. This

>> is just my personal speculation, because I don't know if this

>has been studied

>> yet. I'm looking into it and will report back what I find. But

>it seems the

>> key here with the opioid issue, is histidine in position 67, which

>> apparently is unique to A1 cow's milk.

>

>But even if other proteins can't break down to opioids, that doesn't

>mean your body can't form an immune reaction to them.

I agree which is why I didn't suggest otherwise.

>> Why DO GS folks react to rye and barley? Are the peptides hordein and

>> (what's the other one?) similar in structure to gliadin? So,

>it's a case of

>> mistaken identitiy again?

>

>Isn't it possible-- or even probable-- that it is a case of mistaken

>identity in the first place? All of the HLA-DQ genes are very similar

>to HLA-DQ2 and HLA-DQ8, yet most of them to bind to gluten very well.

>It would seem that their original purpose was for something else.

From what Heidi's said, they are intended to bind to pathogenic microbes.

That's why I think Candida probably set off all my reactions.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

Suze Fisher wrote:

>

>

> As to whether it's separate from teh immune reaction, I don't know. At

> first, I thought that BCM 7 was not the same peptide involved in an IgA

> reaction to casein, but now I'm not so sure. I haven't seen anything

> yet to

> indicate that it's not the same peptide that is problematic for Celiacs,

> although I think Heidi has mentioned something about a 33 AA chain

> being the

> reactive one? I'm not sure if these are tied together in any way or not.

> Generally, from what I understand, some folks who have neurologial

> reactions

> to gluteomorphin and caseomorphin don't have any sort of gut damage, and

> vice versa. And some have both, like Heidi, I think. There seems to be a

> spectrum of reactions to these peptides and they could well be

> reactions to

> different portions of it, I just really don't know. Maybe Heidi does?

My general gleanings seem to indicate to me that the " leaky gut " thing

is the

thing that ties all these together. The IgA allergy to gluten (at least:

I'd bet

there are other things too) causes the release of zonulin, which causes

proteins to leak from the gut and ALSO causes proteins to leak into

the brain. So what causes (or inhibits) zonulin release is the question? The

gut does NOT have to be " damaged " to be " leaky " is the thing, so you

can get woozy from milk and not have noticable gut damage at all.

I'm guessing that the autistic and schizo folks have very permeable

guts and brains, and probably a variety of proteins are problematic

(one researcher said corn forms opioids too!). Zonulin production

from gliadin allergy is the cause they've found to date: there could

be and probably are others -- One bacteria also causes zonulin release,

and who knows if zonulin is the ONLY cause for a permeable gut wall?

I'm also thinking that this " hydrolyzed casein " that is so healing

to rats might also cause the gut wall to be less permeable

for some reason. Maybe it is a zonulin inhibitor? or an IgA

blocker? So many people people report healing with very

fermented dairy products (Gottshall with yogurt, others

with kefir) that it's very intriguing, esp. if plain ol' commercial

junk hydrolyzed casein has the same effect (which would

mean it ISN'T the bacterial content that is causing the

healing).

Fascinating stuff ...

-- Heidi

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