RE: Re: The body knows (long)

[Guest guest]

On 6/18/05 12:33 PM, the Muses inspired José Barbosa to write:

> ISN'T THIS LIKE BOLDO? DO YOU KNOW BOLDO? IT IS EXTREMELY BITTER. I

> GET NAUSEA JUST TO PUT A SMALL PIECE INTO MY MOUTH. BUT WHEN THE

> LIVER IS NOT WORKING, THE BODY MAY ACCEPT IT MORE EASILY. DOGS AND

> CATS EAT GRASSES WHEN THEY GET SICK. AND HENS SIMPLY FAST.

I dont know what Boldo is. But it does sound like the experience I had with

Myrrh.

> SO YOU HAVE THIS SIXTH SENSE, HAVEN'T YOU?

That makes it sound like this is something psychic or paranormal. I dont

think it is. I think other animals do this instinctively. The body

produces some kind of message in the form of a craving for a particular

food. I dont think the mechanism has to be supernatural.

I do think that because humans use language so much, we often discount or

ignore the messages our bodies give us. :Listening: to the messages of the

body often involves some kind of translation into imagery or poetic

language. So my craving for Brazil nuts gets expressed in dream imagery of

South America. My craving spirulina gets expressed in a blue green color

and a pond scum smell. If I am patient, I can sometime realize what these

mean. But these kinds associations probably had a lot to do with how my

brain is wired, what images are near what other images, etc. Again, no

psychic stuff.

(Not that I am against psychic stuff, or that this process might not have

some supernatural elements. What do I know. But it doesnt have to and that

shouldnt be our first understanding of it.)

>

> THAT'S WHAT HEIDI HAS BEEN TALKING ABOUT. YET I SEE IT IS EASIER FOR

> SOME PEOPLE TO QUIT AN ADDICTION THAN IT IS FOR OTHERS. THINK OF

> TOBACCO. I DON'T KNOW WHAT IS AT STAKE HERE. DISCIPLINE? WILL POWER?

I am a smoker. I havent smoked for a very long time, but I can still feel

the addiction. I have heard that tobacco is the most addictive substance

around. I dont know what makes some addictions harder to kick than others.

>> The other thing this connects to in my mind is that alcoholism is

> the only

>> major addiction that you can die from in withdrawals. A person has

> to be

>> pretty far gone, but it is possible because the body of the

> alcoholic has

>> shifted the way it gets energy. No other addiction is like this.

>

>

> DON'T YOU BELIEVE IN AA?

How does that connect?

YR

[Guest guest]

> ** Well, isn't AA the acronym of Alcoholics Anonymous? Wasn't it

> founded in the USA? I always read and hear good reports from them. I

> tend to think it works. So maybe alcoholism has a solution.

AA worked for me (18 years sober in October), but sobriety wasn't

really what she was talking about. She was talking about dying of

withdrawal when you're a hardcore late stage alcoholic--someone who is

very very deep into the disease and will probably die of it anyway. I

was lucky, I got out early and young.

Lynn S.

10/15/87

married to A. 3/15/90

------

Lynn Siprelle * web developer, writer, mama, fiber junky

http://www.siprelle.com * http://www.thenewhomemaker.com

http://www.democracyfororegon.com * http://www.knitting911.net

[Guest guest]

wrote:

> THEN HE TOASTED THE BREAD UNTIL IT WAS LIKE COAL

> AND ATE THAT. I FOUND THAT STRANGE, BUT LATER I LEARNED THAT COAL CAN

> STOP DIARRHEA AND CLEANSE THE BOWELS. I DON'T KNOW IF HE DID IT

> BECAUSE OF A PREVIOUS EXPERIENCE OR ACTED ON INSTINCT. BUT SOMEHOW

> HIS BODY NEEDED THAT COAL AND HE ATE IT.

Works same as activated charcoal capsules that absorb toxins and gas.

wrote:

>> The other thing this connects to in my mind is that alcoholism is

> the only

>> major addiction that you can die from in withdrawals. A person has

> to be

>> pretty far gone, but it is possible because the body of the

> alcoholic has

>> shifted the way it gets energy. No other addiction is like this.

Have read that alcohol withdrawal needs professional supervision more than

heroin withdrawal does, because your heart is more likely to stop.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

On 6/18/05 4:07 PM, the Muses inspired Lynn Siprelle to write:

>> ** Well, isn't AA the acronym of Alcoholics Anonymous? Wasn't it

>> founded in the USA? I always read and hear good reports from them. I

>> tend to think it works. So maybe alcoholism has a solution.

>

> AA worked for me (18 years sober in October), but sobriety wasn't

> really what she was talking about. She was talking about dying of

> withdrawal when you're a hardcore late stage alcoholic--someone who is

> very very deep into the disease and will probably die of it anyway. I

> was lucky, I got out early and young.

Good for you! And yes, I meant that alcohol addiction can become bad enough

that quitting cold turkey can actually kill a person. It has something to

do with how the alcoholism affects the way the body metabolizes glucose. In

very advanced stages of the addiction, the alcoholic often only drinks

alcohol without eating. Their metabolism shifts to one which converts the

alcohol into glucose. This is horribly taxing on the body. At this stage,

the alcoholic must be weaned off of alcohol, slowly shifting their

metabolism over to carbs and fats again.

I am very glad you got out before that!

And back to understanding what the various messages from the body mean, the

ins and outs of glucose metabolism make sugar/carb addiction (and that would

include alcohol addiction as an extreme case) one of the things that can

cause the body to give bad advice for food choices.

YR

[Guest guest]

> Re: Re: The body knows (long)

>

>

>> ** Well, isn't AA the acronym of Alcoholics Anonymous? Wasn't it

>> founded in the USA? I always read and hear good reports from them. I

>> tend to think it works. So maybe alcoholism has a solution.

According to Ross who ran addiction clinics and authored " The Diet

Cure " and " The Mood Cure " the failure rate for groups like AA (and other

organizations/clinics that use a pyschological approach) is about 90%. It's

only when she started using amino acids to correct brain chemistry that her

clinic's own success rate increased dramatically.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

> According to Ross who ran addiction clinics and authored " The

> Diet

> Cure " and " The Mood Cure " the failure rate for groups like AA (and

> other

> organizations/clinics that use a pyschological approach) is about 90%.

AA's success rate is 15%, which considering that going it alone the

success rate is closer to 5% (probably a lot lower) is pretty good. And

the " failures " include people who come back three or four or more times

before they finally " get it " --who knows how many times people like that

get counted. I'm not saying nutrition can't help--obviously it can.

But dismissing AA for its failure rate isn't very useful. Alcoholism

wrecks people's lives, and getting sober is just the start of a long

process. When you sober up a drunken asshole, what you've got is a

sober asshole. AA helps people stop being assholes and start being

responsible for themselves, including their pasts. I'm a much better

person for having been through alcoholism and recovery, with more still

to do!

Lynn S.

------

Lynn Siprelle * web developer, writer, mama, fiber junky

http://www.siprelle.com * http://www.thenewhomemaker.com

http://www.democracyfororegon.com * http://www.knitting911.net

[Guest guest]

> Re: Re: The body knows (long)

>

>

>> According to Ross who ran addiction clinics and authored " The

>> Diet

>> Cure " and " The Mood Cure " the failure rate for groups like AA (and

>> other

>> organizations/clinics that use a pyschological approach) is about 90%.

>

>AA's success rate is 15%, which considering that going it alone the

>success rate is closer to 5% (probably a lot lower) is pretty good. And

>the " failures " include people who come back three or four or more times

>before they finally " get it " --who knows how many times people like that

>get counted. I'm not saying nutrition can't help--obviously it can.

>But dismissing AA for its failure rate isn't very useful.

Lynn,

Ross wasn't *dismissing AA* for it's failure rate (I'm not even sure she

mentioned this particular group by name), she was discussing a very serious

issue re low success rates, including in her own addiction clinic as well.

This is one of the main reasons she sought out other treatment options such

as amino acids since counseling alone had such a low success rate. And why,

it seems, she feels it's important for others to know that the success rate

with her nutritional program (often supplemented by counseling), is

dramatically more successful.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

> Ross wasn't *dismissing AA* for it's failure rate (I'm not even sure

> she

> mentioned this particular group by name), she was discussing a very

> serious

> issue re low success rates, including in her own addiction clinic as

> well.

I know zip about the source material so I'll take your word for it.

I tend to be very responsive about AA when people say things that could

be taken by other people who may need it as " it doesn't work. " You

didn't say that, but it could have been read that way, and so I had to

say something. It does work, you just have to be at the right time in

your addiction to respond to it. Nutrition can only help, but that's

not what AA is there for; it's there for people to help themselves and

others get and stay sober at little or no cost. If you have a buck to

throw in the kitty, that's great. If not, well, have a cup of coffee

and stay a while anyway. If you can afford in-patient, here's hoping it

has a nutrition component.

Lynn S.

------

Lynn Siprelle * web developer, writer, mama, fiber junky

http://www.siprelle.com * http://www.thenewhomemaker.com

http://www.democracyfororegon.com * http://www.knitting911.net

[Guest guest]

>Their metabolism shifts to one which converts the

>alcohol into glucose. This is horribly taxing on the body. At this stage,

>the alcoholic must be weaned off of alcohol, slowly shifting their

>metabolism over to carbs and fats again.

Interestingly, one of the studies about fermentation

in the developing world mentioned that in some

cultures, the folks can get up to 30% of their

nutrition from fermented drinks (beer). I'd exect

our pioneering ancestors who had cider with each

meal got a lot of their calories that way too. One

reason alcoholism might be such a problem is that

it is based on a lower-key kind of drinking that has

really been part of our past for a long time.

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>>>>>>>>> Interestingly, one of the studies about fermentation

in the developing world mentioned that in some

cultures, the folks can get up to 30% of their

nutrition from fermented drinks (beer). I'd exect

our pioneering ancestors who had cider with each

meal got a lot of their calories that way too. One

reason alcoholism might be such a problem is that

it is based on a lower-key kind of drinking that has

really been part of our past for a long time.

Heidi >>>>>>>>>

My husband, who grew up Morman on a ranch in Utah (and then got a merit

scholarship to Harvard where he quickly and finally became an atheist and an

alcoholic,) will tell you that the saying back then was " You can't buy a

drink but you can buy a drunk " meaning of course that since drinking is

completely proscribed by Mormans the tendency is to either completely

abstain from alcohol or become completely immersed in it.

Moderation in all things right? (except gluten for me now :-) heh heh)

~Robin

[Guest guest]

On 6/19/05 2:22 PM, the Muses inspired Heidi Schuppenhauer to write:

> One

> reason alcoholism might be such a problem is that

> it is based on a lower-key kind of drinking that has

> really been part of our past for a long time.

Yeah. I think the culture in which a potentially addictive substance is

consumed must be considered part of the problem of addiction.

One thing might be that the mass marketed fermented product has been as

stripped of nutrients as the rest of our food. Most people dont get

adequate nutrition in the US whether or not they drink.

We also live in a culture that likes to isolate and concentrate. We (as a

culture) prefer a drug that is ludicrously powerful over the herb it is

derived from, whether or not we need that level of medication. We think in

terms of vitamins, minerals, etc, that can all be taken in huge doses of

individual pills rather than looking at the complex interactions of a whole

food.

Along these lines, look at the use of tobacco. Before the Europeans came,

Native Americans used this as a holy herb. They didnt smoke it constantly

throughout the day. Now, tobacco companies tailor make cigarettes to *be*

addictive so that they can assure themselves of profits.

YR

[Guest guest]

>My husband, who grew up Morman on a ranch in Utah (and then got a merit

>scholarship to Harvard where he quickly and finally became an atheist and an

>alcoholic,) will tell you that the saying back then was " You can't buy a

>drink but you can buy a drunk " meaning of course that since drinking is

>completely proscribed by Mormans the tendency is to either completely

>abstain from alcohol or become completely immersed in it.

>

>Moderation in all things right? (except gluten for me now :-) heh heh)

>

>~Robin

Alcoholism runs in my family too, and I think a lot

of it has to do with the FORM of alcohol. Personally I cannot,

for the life of me, drink enough cider to really affect my mental

facilities. Scotch, however, is another story! For awhile I was

into really good Scotch, which of course I can't have now.

But I also think the worst thing you can do to a person

is demonize ANYTHING (including gluten and sex!). Then it

becomes an " all or nothing " thing that cannot even be talked

about rationally. Alcohol is one of those things that has

been demonized. In Europe, wine is typically drank with dinner,

but when I was there it seemed there were lots less " drinking

problems " and the young folks I was with had no desire

to " go out drinking " (when they said " let's stop for drinks " they

meant lattes!).

And that phrase " moderation in all things " is one of those

I'd love to use for target practice when and if I take up

shooting. Moderation in what? LSD? Ricin? Hitting folks

you don't like? Driving recklessly? I think what they

*really* mean is " obsessive behavior is irritating " or " the 80/20 rule " .

Nature doesn't work on " moderation " , it works on a bunch

of irritatingly exact rules which, if you break them, are often

fatal.

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Hi Heidi,

> Scotch, however, is another story! For awhile I was

> into really good Scotch, which of course I can't have now.

>

Could you explain this? I've been looking at the lists of gluten-free foods

and some of the ones that I saw indicated that celiacs don't have trouble

with distilled spirits no matter what their source. Is that incorrect?

Ron

[Guest guest]

>Could you explain this? I've been looking at the lists of gluten-free foods

>and some of the ones that I saw indicated that celiacs don't have trouble

>with distilled spirits no matter what their source. Is that incorrect?

>

>Ron

Well, first off most people really can't TELL if they are " having

trouble " or not, so the lack of symptoms isn't all that

accurate. But the thing is, distilled spirits SHOULD be ok,

they are highly purified. Yet I still have problems with

them. Could be colorants or whatever they add to them,

or " barley stuff " in the air that gets into the barrels.

Most distilled products are made from corn though, which

is cheaper, and distilled products that are not made from

barley seem to be ok with me. However I find that any

highly refined alcohol doesn't really set well: I don't get

a gluten reaction from it but it's just too strong, so

I haven't experimented much.

Heidi Jean