Re: Elimination = Illumination?

[Guest guest]

> To and anyone who might be perplexed by all this talk of poops

> and fasting and enemas by otherwise fine upstanding WAPF members:

>

> When I was very sick a couple years ago with a violent bacterial

> infection caused by a hospital mistake of overdosing antibiotics in

> a feeding tube (I could go on and on here..) I was desperate. All

> the signals I was getting from my body were " get rid of this

stuff! "

> I went out and paid to have colon hydrotherapy performed. It helped

> to such a great degree that I went back regularly for awhile to

have

> it done. It was the only relief I got. I am not exaggerating when I

> say that I feel the " flushing " saved my life. I was that sick.

>

> My gut feelings were to cleanse. To reboot, if you will.. Since any

> solid food I ate made me throw up or have explosive diarrhea, I

> basically fasted on bone and root vegetable broths. That's the

> period where I lost 20 pounds in a month and have never been so

> scared in my life.

>

> Now, this is an extreme case, but the point I'm trying to make is

> that there may be times when our inner voice is telling us to fast

> and try to get rid of the junk that's poisoning us. That was such a

> time for me.

>

> The following year after that horrible month, I never felt like

> fasting. In fact, it seemed like the dumbest thing I could do. I

> carefully ate cooked vegetables and meats -- a LOT of soups

> especially with miso paste -- my body wanted " grounding " , building,

> and healing foods. Even now, that I'm feeling quite strong (it's so

> cool!!!) I think a fast would not be a wise thing for me to do...

>

> There's a time for building up and there's a time for cleaning

house

> and, well, we just have to listen to our bodies. If you've been

sick

> for a long time but have embarked on a new healing route, it seems

> very likely that your body may want a reboot, a reset, and I think

a

> fast will help that process....

>

> ...Especially if that time is also used for introspective thought,

> meditation, prayer and all the sorts of things that fasts are also

> famous for. It can be a powerful healing aid on many levels when

> used correctly.

>

> A simple fast once a week is sometimes good to help " reset " the

> palate or the taste buds and can help keep you " honest " that way

> while you acclimate to a new diet regime.

>

> A fast can also help you to learn that you won't die if you don't

> eat. There's an underlying fear factor that we need food to keep us

> going. Especially in this group where food is also a kind of

> nutritious medicine we have to be careful to not get into the habit

> of always asking " what do I need to eat? " It can be as bad as " what

> medicine do I take? " . Sometimes we should eat nothing. The point is

> we have to listen to what the body really needs...

>

> Most people don't ever need to fast. But some people at certain

> times in their lives can benefit by them. These people will know

> because their bodies will tell them..

>

> ~Robin Ann

Robin Ann:

Very apt observations. Indeed, animals are much wiser than humans

when it comes to fasting or not. They do it instinctively, and

instinct means, as you put it, listening to your body.

Another healing factor we often neglect is sleeping.

And a third one is cultivating optimism. But they all must perform

like an orchestra. That is, together.

JC

[Guest guest]

Robin Ann,

>The following year after that horrible month, I never felt like

>fasting. In fact, it seemed like the dumbest thing I could do. I

>carefully ate cooked vegetables and meats -- a LOT of soups

>especially with miso paste -- my body wanted " grounding " , building,

>and healing foods. Even now, that I'm feeling quite strong (it's so

>cool!!!) I think a fast would not be a wise thing for me to do...

>

>There's a time for building up and there's a time for cleaning house

>and, well, we just have to listen to our bodies. If you've been sick

>for a long time but have embarked on a new healing route, it seems

>very likely that your body may want a reboot, a reset, and I think a

>fast will help that process....

>

>...Especially if that time is also used for introspective thought,

>meditation, prayer and all the sorts of things that fasts are also

>famous for. It can be a powerful healing aid on many levels when

>used correctly.

>

Thanks for sharing. I, for one, am not offended by poop talk. It comes

up every so often here, and it can be helpful to people to read about

stools, enemas, colonics and all. These healing modalities, along with

fasting, yoga and others, have there place in a healthy lifestyle.

Also, I respect the choices that people make in their lives, whether or

not I agree with them.

The wisdom in knowing when to fast and when to rebuild is important. I

think it's wonderful that you are in tuned to your needs. It may be our

biggest problem to good health that we do not listen to the innate

wisdom of the body. Often addictions, compulsions or other perceived

needs get in the way of listening deeper within to our core needs of

survival and hopefully optimization of self. Moreover, I have seen

first hand the mistaken idea that we can be in a perpetual state of

detoxification, especially in the raw vegan community. If deficiencies

are what you want, then this is the road to follow. And I think

nutrient density and avoidance of deficiencies are major themes of Dr.

Price's work. Finally, NT mentions repeatedly whenever fasting is

mentioned that problems can arise from letting the fast go on too long.

I believe the same is true for foods eaten, elimination assistance and

life in general. It is a cycle of waxes and wanes. There is a season

turn, turn, turn.

I came to this group after a stint on raw vegan foods over 1.5 years

ago. I was impressed immediately by the reasoned nature with which

people approached their health. They looked at NAPD, NT, other books,

studies, anecdotes and basically trial and error for information on

attaining or retaining good health. This was in sharp contrast to the

dogma, dietary racism and guru worship that pervaded the vegan groups

with which I was familiar. Even folks like PCRM - supposedly doctors

advocating good health - were not telling the whole story on substances

like DHA. This angered me as a parent seeking family health, as the

agenda of not eating animals masked the truth that animal foods are

necessary (for my growing kids especially) to obtain essential fatty

acids like DHA. At the time, pcrm.org didn't even have such a substance

on their site ANYWHERE. Also bothersome to me is the idea that if I

someone experiences symptoms of any sort, the mantra was " this is

detox. " I know raw foodists with enamel wearing off of their teeth. I

know raw foodists who not only say that cooked food is poison, but that

people who eat cooked food are toxic! This is all hype based on nothing

but hearsay.

So I feel strongly that when science can answer questions readily, then

we should use that first and foremost. If someone suspects parasites or

tumor growths in their stools, then why not have it check out directly?

Some things don't lend themselves to direct investigations, of course.

Mentors and gurus can be helpful, or they can hurt us. Experience has

taught me to be skeptical. If something doesn't feel right, it probably

isn't.

I don't have the health concerns many of you do. I do not want to judge

others as I am not in your shoes. However, I do wish to continue the

exchange and optimize my good health. It is why I am here. I apologize

if I have offended anyone by my writing.

In good health,

Deanna

[Guest guest]

On 8/20/05, Deanna Wagner <hl@...> wrote:

>

> Also bothersome to me is the idea that if I

> someone experiences symptoms of any sort, the mantra was " this is

> detox. " I know raw foodists with enamel wearing off of their teeth. I

> know raw foodists who not only say that cooked food is poison, but that

> people who eat cooked food are toxic! This is all hype based on nothing

> but hearsay.

>

> So I feel strongly that when science can answer questions readily, then

> we should use that first and foremost. If someone suspects parasites or

> tumor growths in their stools, then why not have it check out directly?

> Some things don't lend themselves to direct investigations, of course.

> Mentors and gurus can be helpful, or they can hurt us. Experience has

> taught me to be skeptical. If something doesn't feel right, it probably

> isn't.

>

> I don't have the health concerns many of you do. I do not want to judge

> others as I am not in your shoes. However, I do wish to continue the

> exchange and optimize my good health. It is why I am here. I apologize

> if I have offended anyone by my writing.

>

> Deanna,

You've said all I've been thinking these last few days, directly and

fairly. Anyway, that's why metabolic typing or biochemical individuality

makes sense to me. I'm with Wiley's Biobalance that if you don't feel

better, it's not a detox, it's wrong for you. Also that some heal with raw

diets and others with cooked. Alternative healing methods are as numerous as

products on the grocery shelves and we all know how many of those will do

everyone of us the same amount of good.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

--- In , Deanna Wagner <hl@s...>

wrote:

> Robin Ann,

> Thanks for sharing. I, for one, am not offended by poop talk. It

comes

> up every so often here, and it can be helpful to people to read

about

> stools, enemas, colonics and all. These healing modalities, along

with

> fasting, yoga and others, have there place in a healthy lifestyle.

> Also, I respect the choices that people make in their lives,

whether or

> not I agree with them.

>

> The wisdom in knowing when to fast and when to rebuild is

important. I

> think it's wonderful that you are in tuned to your needs. It may

be our

> biggest problem to good health that we do not listen to the innate

> wisdom of the body. Often addictions, compulsions or other

perceived

> needs get in the way of listening deeper within to our core needs

of

> survival and hopefully optimization of self. Moreover, I have seen

> first hand the mistaken idea that we can be in a perpetual state of

> detoxification, especially in the raw vegan community. If

deficiencies

> are what you want, then this is the road to follow. And I think

> nutrient density and avoidance of deficiencies are major themes of

Dr.

> Price's work. Finally, NT mentions repeatedly whenever fasting is

> mentioned that problems can arise from letting the fast go on too

long.

> I believe the same is true for foods eaten, elimination assistance

and

> life in general. It is a cycle of waxes and wanes. There is a

season

> turn, turn, turn.

>

> I came to this group after a stint on raw vegan foods over 1.5

years

> ago. I was impressed immediately by the reasoned nature with which

> people approached their health. They looked at NAPD, NT, other

books,

> studies, anecdotes and basically trial and error for information on

> attaining or retaining good health. This was in sharp contrast to

the

> dogma, dietary racism and guru worship that pervaded the vegan

groups

> with which I was familiar. Even folks like PCRM - supposedly

doctors

> advocating good health - were not telling the whole story on

substances

> like DHA. This angered me as a parent seeking family health, as

the

> agenda of not eating animals masked the truth that animal foods are

> necessary (for my growing kids especially) to obtain essential

fatty

> acids like DHA. At the time, pcrm.org didn't even have such a

substance

> on their site ANYWHERE. Also bothersome to me is the idea that if

I

> someone experiences symptoms of any sort, the mantra was " this is

> detox. " I know raw foodists with enamel wearing off of their

teeth. I

> know raw foodists who not only say that cooked food is poison, but

that

> people who eat cooked food are toxic! This is all hype based on

nothing

> but hearsay.

>

> So I feel strongly that when science can answer questions readily,

then

> we should use that first and foremost. If someone suspects

parasites or

> tumor growths in their stools, then why not have it check out

directly?

> Some things don't lend themselves to direct investigations, of

course.

> Mentors and gurus can be helpful, or they can hurt us. Experience

has

> taught me to be skeptical. If something doesn't feel right, it

probably

> isn't.

>

> I don't have the health concerns many of you do. I do not want to

judge

> others as I am not in your shoes. However, I do wish to continue

the

> exchange and optimize my good health. It is why I am here. I

apologize

> if I have offended anyone by my writing.

>

> In good health,

> Deanna

>

Deanna:

That was a great post.

José

PS. And it raises important questions as well. One of them is the

renowned danger of over-schematism. Of course we all need rules, but

when you stick to them and never look beyond, you're putting on a

strait jacket.

Another is the difficulty to orientate yourself in terms of health

and especially nutrition, which is a domain full of contradictions

and divergent opinions as to what's good and what's bad. Very few

authors agree entirely with one another, and most overlook the

individual per se. Is health a do-it-yourself game? Must we look down

on all conventional or academic medicine, just because it relies so

much on technology? How far can we let a guru or a book rule on our

lives and dietary choices? How to open our eyes, before we blindly

give up our health and purse to the charlatan? How often do we see

people confound health failure and detox, fuzziness and mysticism,

lack of libido and the mastership of one's libido!

A third point is why do we always need extreme measures, which can be

worse than the very ailment and in many cases make life look somber?

[Guest guest]

Wanita, José-, and Others:

Thank you for your kind words. It seems I finally managed to spit out

my thoughts in some reasonable semblance, though not without errors,

lol. I agree with you both that we are individuals in need of

individuality throughout the facets of our life.

>PS. And it raises important questions as well. One of them is the

>renowned danger of over-schematism. Of course we all need rules, but

>when you stick to them and never look beyond, you're putting on a

>strait jacket.

>

>

Following rules while health deteriorates can be a dangerous thing. For

some with major health concerns, rules must be followed to live. But

aside from that I think that finding what works is a great thing, yet

that may change over time and might also be tweaked a bit here and

there. Without an open mind, we miss the joy of discovering more. I

was just reading today this article on disillusionment with a Natural

Hygiene diet. Ward Nicholson spent years trying to adapt to a diet that

was just no good for him. His story is probably similar to many.

http://www.beyondveg.com/nicholson-w/hb/hb-interview1b.shtml

" Needless to say, I found these " fasts " on juices difficult since I was

both working, and working out, at the same time. Had they been true

" water " fasts, I doubt I would have been able to do it. I had been

enticed by the promises of more robust health and greater eventual

energy from fasting, and kept wondering why I didn't feel as great while

fasting as the books said I would, with their stories of past supermen

lifting heavy weights or walking or running long distances as they fasted.

" Little did I realize in my naivete that this was normal for most

fasters. At the time I assumed, as Hygienists have probably been

assuming since time immemorial when they don't get the hoped-for

results, that it was just because I " wasn't cleaned-out enough. " So in

order to get more cleaned-out, I kept doing longer fasts, working up to

a 13-day true water fast, and finally a 25-day water fast over Christmas

break my senior year in college. (I had smartened up just a little bit

by this time and didn't try running during these longer fasts on water

alone.) "

>Another is the difficulty to orientate yourself in terms of health

>and especially nutrition, which is a domain full of contradictions

>and divergent opinions as to what's good and what's bad. Very few

>authors agree entirely with one another, and most overlook the

>individual per se. Is health a do-it-yourself game? Must we look down

>on all conventional or academic medicine, just because it relies so

>much on technology? How far can we let a guru or a book rule on our

>lives and dietary choices? How to open our eyes, before we blindly

>give up our health and purse to the charlatan? How often do we see

>people confound health failure and detox, fuzziness and mysticism,

>lack of libido and the mastership of one's libido!

>

>

Yes, and the human organism is just a very complex thing. When we try

to over simplify things, we can get into trouble. Also, each book must

have a different spin on things to sell properly. I just read on

another list how a charlatan supposedly performed a skin test for

listeria on a woman and claimed she had high levels (which she then

blamed on raw milk consumption). And then here in the US, it seems we

have gotten so ridiculously divided into 2 and only 2 camps. So we

simplify: alternative medicine = good, conventional medicine = bad (or

vice versa). When all the while we have to pick and choose and think

and scrutinize among many choices (of course, that is the definition of

heresy, but that's okay by me ;-) ). That said, Price's natives had no

need of constant medical attention like many modern men and women.

OTOH, I sure wouldn't want to break my arm without modern medicine

available.

>A third point is why do we always need extreme measures, which can be

>worse than the very ailment and in many cases make life look somber?

>

Obsession. I am guilty at times. I believe that is what drives many to

the extremes. We do need some laughter and lightness, or else what is

the point?

La vie en rose,

Deanna