Re: Barley & Old World Foods was a few carb questions (Deanna, Heidi, Wanita)

[Guest guest]

>As a servant he " got meat every day " which he thought was neat.

>When he went back to visit his family he said they had only

>some " potatoes with fat " for dinner and he then thought he

>was better off being a servant in the castle.

>

>

Huh, I don't have an autobiography to go by, but my grandma was a

servant at a castle in Scotland. Perhaps she ate better than the rest

in her social class as well. Nice thought, anyway.

What do you think of the old church cookbooks and some of the historical

cookbooks from the houses of the founding fathers, etc that date back

well over a century? They do come from the higher classes obviously.

They still seem to be heavy on creamed seafood, vegetables and wine,

from what I have seen. Breads and cakes are more of a treat. And along

these lines it seems bread is just so much more labor and time intensive

than, say, potatoes. There are so many steps involved to obtaining

wheat bread, it SHOULD be expensive.

>Yeah, I see the same when I read old accounts. Lots

>of meats mentioned, and beer, not a lot about bread.

>Unless you were in prison and fed " bread and water " .

>Most breads were coarse whole grain breads though,

>and like I said earlier, not generally wheat. The Finns

>were into rye bread, I think (Can anyone say " Wasa " ?).

>In English literature you hear a lot about barley

>( " Oats and beans and barley grow ... " ). Gluten

>intolerant folk can't eat barley, but barley probably

>doesn't cause gluten intolerance to the degree

>wheat does (there is very little gluten in barley).

>

>

Meat and beer: the breakfast of champions, lol.

>Barley is really interesting:

>

I love barley in vegetable beef soup, but I haven't had it for years

because of the gluten with ds. I could probably tolerate it a bit, but

since even standard beer whacks me out in the head for a day (and not

because I have too much!), I am thinking I might be better without it.

Last night I made a creamy clam sauce to pour over vegetables. I didn't

measure the potato flour, but made the mistake of pouring from the jar

:-[ . I got about 1/3 cup of it in the roux - the sauce made five

servings. It was a thick sauce needless to say. I got absolutely

stuffed from my serving. I don't think I am used to starches at all

anymore. With meat and kraut, I eat small amounts and feel good. With

high starch foods, I feel full before I know it and suffer for it, even

with small amounts. What's with that? Heidi, you eat some hash browns

at times. Do you ever get that feeling it just fills your gut and think

" ugh " ? It's funny, because I can eat a bowl of chili with meat and

beans and not feel this way. But grains or potatoes just make me feel

stuffed with the smallest amounts.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

Deanna?\:

>What do you think of the old church cookbooks and some of the historical

>cookbooks from the houses of the founding fathers, etc that date back

>well over a century? They do come from the higher classes obviously.

>They still seem to be heavy on creamed seafood, vegetables and wine,

>from what I have seen. Breads and cakes are more of a treat. And along

>these lines it seems bread is just so much more labor and time intensive

>than, say, potatoes. There are so many steps involved to obtaining

>wheat bread, it SHOULD be expensive.

I have the Martha Washington cookbook, which is annotated

and really does tell a lot about the time period! Granted

in that social class there were servants, and it's hard to

say how much of each thing they ate. What is interesting

is that even for something like a quick bread, there would

be something like TEN eggs in a loaf!

Reportedly Jefferson had a quart of cider for breakfast

too. Lots of cold meat plus beer, cider and wine, and cheese,

for " quick food " .

I think you are right: bread was expensive from

a labor point of view. In the towns people bought it

daily from the baker, and my grandad's first business

after the war was delivering loaves to each house in

a wheelbarrow. But that was in 1920 or so, when things

were beginning to change. Porridge was the big deal

before that: the infamous " gruel " ... which was pretty

easy to make (toss some grain, usually oats, in a pot

and cook). Or of course the equally infamous " pease porridge " .

> >

>I love barley in vegetable beef soup, but I haven't had it for years

>because of the gluten with ds. I could probably tolerate it a bit, but

>since even standard beer whacks me out in the head for a day (and not

>because I have too much!), I am thinking I might be better without it.

I've been using quinoa in those kinds of recipes, and

I think I like it better than I ever did barley.

>Last night I made a creamy clam sauce to pour over vegetables. I didn't

>measure the potato flour, but made the mistake of pouring from the jar

>:-[ . I got about 1/3 cup of it in the roux - the sauce made five

>servings. It was a thick sauce needless to say. I got absolutely

>stuffed from my serving. I don't think I am used to starches at all

>anymore. With meat and kraut, I eat small amounts and feel good. With

>high starch foods, I feel full before I know it and suffer for it, even

>with small amounts. What's with that? Heidi, you eat some hash browns

>at times. Do you ever get that feeling it just fills your gut and think

> " ugh " ? It's funny, because I can eat a bowl of chili with meat and

>beans and not feel this way. But grains or potatoes just make me feel

>stuffed with the smallest amounts.

I used to feel ecchhy if I ate too much fat, but now I can down

a big ol' steak or some ribs and feel fine. But I'm with you ... certain

starches just leave me feeling like I ate some wallpaper paste. I suppose

the digestion enzymes/bacteria change. It also may be just

that we are better set up for meat/vegies. Starches make

most animals rather ill, even ruminants who do crave grass

seeds and love to eat corn and oats. In ruminants the starch

messes up their digestion big time, which has been extensively

studied because the farmers WANT the animals to eat grain

to fatten them up. Racehorses have the same problem (again,

they want to feed them lots of oats so they run fast). So

do pigs. I'd imagine dogs do also, since they aren't really set

up for grains/starches. So it probably shouldn't be so unusual

that they mess us up. It's just that we grew up eating them

so we sort of got adapted or used to feeling how they

made us feel?

But it also has a lot to do with the *form* of the starches.

Starches " gelatinize " , and when they are in that form, they

digest slowly and don't cause the dysbiosis so much, or

the blood sugar issues.

Boiled barley and oatmeal and steamed rice are gelatinized,

as is pasta and my hashbrowns (made with raw potatoes).

Baked flour products are not, and probably your potato

sauce isn't either. My dh gets indigestion easily, but

plain white steamed rice *never* gives him indigestion,

and in fact cures it when he does get it. Cookies, OTOH,

often give him problems.

Again, this has been studied a lot in farm animals.

A lot of probably applies to humans too, in terms

of dysbiosis.

>

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

> I've been using quinoa in those kinds of recipes, and

> I think I like it better than I ever did barley.

What do you think of amaranth?

Lynn S.

------

Lynn Siprelle * web developer, writer, mama, fiber junky

http://www.siprelle.com * http://www.thenewhomemaker.com

http://www.democracyfororegon.com * http://www.knitting911.net

[Guest guest]

>What do you think of amaranth?

>

>Lynn S.

I haven't played with it yet. Quinoa is easier

to get. I hear the flour works good though.

Heidi

[Guest guest]

> But it also has a lot to do with the *form* of the starches.

> Starches " gelatinize " , and when they are in that form, they

> digest slowly and don't cause the dysbiosis so much, or

> the blood sugar issues.

>

> Boiled barley and oatmeal and steamed rice are gelatinized,

> as is pasta and my hashbrowns (made with raw potatoes).

> Baked flour products are not, and probably your potato

> sauce isn't either. My dh gets indigestion easily, but

> plain white steamed rice *never* gives him indigestion,

> and in fact cures it when he does get it. Cookies, OTOH,

> often give him problems.

>

> Again, this has been studied a lot in farm animals.

> A lot of probably applies to humans too, in terms

> of dysbiosis.

>

>

>

> Heidi Jean

Heidi:

I have read somewhere that (raw) flour is the most indigest food [?]

for a human being. Leavened and baked flour (bread) improves the

digestibility, but perhaps not completely.

Gee, you wouldn't expect to hear this from someone who seems to be

defending carbs all the time, would you?

I still eat bread now and then, but I really prefer tubers and rice.

José

PS. By the way, shall I call you Heidi or Heidi Jean? Which do you

prefer?

[Guest guest]

> I haven't played with it yet. Quinoa is easier

> to get. I hear the flour works good though.

Just curious because I've been reading up on it lately (big article in

a recent Mother Earth News) and apparently it's an ideal grain-like

crop for self-sufficient gardeners. You can even eat the young plants

like spinach. A 10x10 bed of it will keep a family in grain for a year,

and it's super easy to grow and thresh apparently. I have a good spot

for it, so I'm looking hard at that for next year. I may overwinter

favas on that patch this year to break up and fertilize the soil (and

you can eat fava greens in winter too).

So I guess we should actually eat some and see if we like it!

Lynn S.

------

Lynn Siprelle * web developer, writer, mama, fiber junky

http://www.siprelle.com * http://www.thenewhomemaker.com

http://www.democracyfororegon.com * http://www.knitting911.net

[Guest guest]

Lynn Siprelle wrote:

>>I've been using quinoa in those kinds of recipes, and

>>I think I like it better than I ever did barley.

>>

>>

>

>What do you think of amaranth?

>

>Lynn S.

>

Whole amaranth cooks to the consistency of caviar. My kids turn their

noses up at amaranth saying, " it's slimy and yucky. " Both of them love

caviar - go figure. Ground amaranth is fine in baked goods. Quinoa we

sprout and mainly use cooked in tabouli. Both amaranth and quinoa are

little things, but they differ texturally.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

Deanna

>With meat and kraut, I eat small amounts and feel good. With

>high starch foods, I feel full before I know it and suffer for it, even

>with small amounts. What's with that?

BTW I also wanted to point out something regarding

the recent post about the celiac/candida connection.

The protein in gluten is *the same sequence* as the

protein in candida.

That would mean that a person with an IgA reaction

to gluten would likely get an IgA reaction to candida.

Which might explain why so many folk get good results

from the SCD-style low-low-carb diets, plus probiotics.

Killing off the candida would, in that case, be a very

very good thing! And starches could be a very very bad

thing!

Also Dr. Fine says about 30% of gluten intolerant

people have IgA reactions to baker's yeast. (which

of course would not be in your potato sauce, but

would often be in bread products).

Another problem is that people tend to cross-react

with other grains, such as rice and corn. Plus

other grains are often contaminated.

All in all, it's not too surprising people might have

a problem with " starches " ! My hash browns do

ok by me, but I've had a couple of years to heal too,

and of course I have my red wine with dinner!

-- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>Heidi:

>

>I have read somewhere that (raw) flour is the most indigest food [?]

>for a human being. Leavened and baked flour (bread) improves the

>digestibility, but perhaps not completely.

My Mom always said raw flour would give me a stomachache.

Or at least raw cookie dough would: certainly that would

be the best way to eat raw flour! It didn't stop me though.

Grains in general ARE hard to digest, which is why there

is all this emphasis on preparation: soaking, sprouting,

fermenting. Raw wheat flour might be the worst though:

the dough is really, really sticky (like, try getting it off

your hands!). Some of that stickyness is from a

protein that makes it stick to the villi in your intestine

(per the recent post on candida: it's the same protein

that allows candida to stick to your gut: call it " gut glue " !).

>Gee, you wouldn't expect to hear this from someone who seems to be

>defending carbs all the time, would you?

Are you defending carbs? I figure most of this is

intellectual discussion.

>I still eat bread now and then, but I really prefer tubers and rice.

I like stuff that is juicy and crunchy. Like big huge salads

with my new ginger pickled fish (just had dinner!). Sushi

is nice though, and hashbrowns. Right now the good fruit

is in season though, so we are eating loads of watermelon

and strawberries and cherries.

>José

>

>PS. By the way, shall I call you Heidi or Heidi Jean? Which do you

>prefer?

My name is Heidi, but I sign my name Heidi because there

is another Heidi here (she doesn't write as much as I do!).

I answer to anything though.

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Heidi,

>BTW I also wanted to point out something regarding

>the recent post about the celiac/candida connection.

>The protein in gluten is *the same sequence* as the

>protein in candida.

>

>That would mean that a person with an IgA reaction

>to gluten would likely get an IgA reaction to candida.

>Which might explain why so many folk get good results

>from the SCD-style low-low-carb diets, plus probiotics.

>Killing off the candida would, in that case, be a very

>very good thing! And starches could be a very very bad

>thing!

>

>

You da Glutenator!

Thanks so much for this tie in with recent info on candida/gluten

connection and the SCD. I may end up buying _Breaking the Vicious

Cycle_, as I know ds benefits from it. I bet I would as well. I know

enough to give it a go ... starting now for the clan for at least 2

weeks, maybe longer.

And I should probably consider testing the whole clan for gluten.

Perhaps I will get off my intentions and search the archives for your

recommendations. Hey Helga, do you have a gluten file like the kimchi

one? You know you probably should have one, as you probably repeat this

information a lot.

>Also Dr. Fine says about 30% of gluten intolerant

>people have IgA reactions to baker's yeast. (which

>of course would not be in your potato sauce, but

>would often be in bread products).

>

>

Well, I can't think of using baker's yeast unless you have gluten, but

maybe I am missing something. Do GF breads have yeast in them generally?

>Another problem is that people tend to cross-react

>with other grains, such as rice and corn. Plus

>other grains are often contaminated.

>

>All in all, it's not too surprising people might have

>a problem with " starches " ! My hash browns do

>ok by me, but I've had a couple of years to heal too,

>and of course I have my red wine with dinner!

>

>-- Heidi Jean

>

>

Thank God for red wine, lol! What is cross-reacting exactly? I realize

I need to get cracking on learning more. SCD is something that we are

basically doing anyway. Heck, nuts grind to flours too, so it's not

like I can't make any easy switch to it. Even without the biochemistry

knowledge, seeing results is enough to know something is right, wrong,

or indifferent in my life.

Anyhoo, I appreciate your constant vigilance of all things gluten, your

Glutenatorship. Thanks for connecting some dots that I wouldn't have

connected in the blasted humid heat I reside in as of late.

Your faithful subject always,

Deanna

[Guest guest]

>And I should probably consider testing the whole clan for gluten.

>Perhaps I will get off my intentions and search the archives for your

>recommendations. Hey Helga, do you have a gluten file like the kimchi

>one? You know you probably should have one, as you probably repeat this

>information a lot.

Hm. Yeah, it would be a good idea but the info

keeps changing. " Shoot the engineer and start production ... " !

>Well, I can't think of using baker's yeast unless you have gluten, but

>maybe I am missing something. Do GF breads have yeast in them generally?

Well of course they have yeast! How else would they

taste yeasty? :-) Actually my " white bread " has LOTS

of yeast and people love it. But I don't seem to

react to yeast. That puppy rises in 10 minutes flat

(more time and it overflows the pan!). A good GF

bread is very hard to tell from a gluten one.

>Thank God for red wine, lol! What is cross-reacting exactly? I realize

>I need to get cracking on learning more. SCD is something that we are

>basically doing anyway. Heck, nuts grind to flours too, so it's not

>like I can't make any easy switch to it. Even without the biochemistry

>knowledge, seeing results is enough to know something is right, wrong,

>or indifferent in my life.

Basically, some folks who react to gliadin in wheat

ALSO react to proteins in corn or rice, for reasons

that aren't clear. It's hard to say if the reason is

that the system has sort of just decided " all grain proteins

are bad " , or the corn or rice has been contaminated

by wheat (which happens, since they are often

trucked and packaged and sorted on the same equipment),

or maybe it's the candida reaction I was alluding to.

However, the vast majority (95%) of celiacs get

better after 1-5 years, eating rice and corn. Possibly

they would get better faster not eating rice and corn.

And yeah, what would we do without red wine?

Bacchus had to come to save the Romans and

Greeks from all that grain!

>Anyhoo, I appreciate your constant vigilance of all things gluten, your

>Glutenatorship. Thanks for connecting some dots that I wouldn't have

>connected in the blasted humid heat I reside in as of late.

Hee hee. Well, everyone needs a specialty. You can

come out here and cool off though, it's all of 70.

Or drink some iced wine ... :--)

>

Heidi Jean