Mold Assessments and Air Handlers

May 7, 2007

:

Right you are that checking a residential AC system is not brain

surgery! That is why any EC worth their fee would of course check

out the system, if they were hired to review the potential for mold

growth in a home. I don't know about the EC's in southern Florida,

but here in Canada the EC's always check the heating system,

including the supply vents and return ducts.

As Wane stated, a commercial or industrial building's HVAC system is

far more complex. There is a good idea to have a mechanical engineer

along on the inspection to discuss the system with the building's

operators. Again, any EC worth their fee would do this. If the EC's

in Florida are failing to do so, then they should not be the ones

hired to perform this type of work.

As far as training goes, it would be recommended that anyone

performing this type of inspection in homes have a basic building

sciences course, and perhaps a more advanced ventilation system

course. Not to become a PE in mechanical engineering. But to

understand how a system operates.

On insurance, as I have previously stated, if an EC doesn't have E & O

insurance, then this would be the consultant of choice for this type

of work.

Don

> > Amy said ...

> >

> > " The condition should be noted in the report and deferred for

further inspection by an HVAC expert "

> >

> > What condition? You need to open it up to see if there is a

condition. You don't need to be an expert to check inside an air

handler. Just some minimal training that is not provided by any of

the mold training courses.

> >

> > Rosen, Ph.D.

> > www.Mold-Books. com

> >

>

______________________________________________________________________

______________

> The fish are biting.

> Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.

> http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php

>

May 7, 2007

:

Right you are that checking a residential AC system is not brain

surgery! That is why any EC worth their fee would of course check

out the system, if they were hired to review the potential for mold

growth in a home. I don't know about the EC's in southern Florida,

but here in Canada the EC's always check the heating system,

including the supply vents and return ducts.

As Wane stated, a commercial or industrial building's HVAC system is

far more complex. There is a good idea to have a mechanical engineer

along on the inspection to discuss the system with the building's

operators. Again, any EC worth their fee would do this. If the EC's

in Florida are failing to do so, then they should not be the ones

hired to perform this type of work.

As far as training goes, it would be recommended that anyone

performing this type of inspection in homes have a basic building

sciences course, and perhaps a more advanced ventilation system

course. Not to become a PE in mechanical engineering. But to

understand how a system operates.

On insurance, as I have previously stated, if an EC doesn't have E & O

insurance, then this would be the consultant of choice for this type

of work.

Don

> > Amy said ...

> >

> > " The condition should be noted in the report and deferred for

further inspection by an HVAC expert "

> >

> > What condition? You need to open it up to see if there is a

condition. You don't need to be an expert to check inside an air

handler. Just some minimal training that is not provided by any of

the mold training courses.

> >

> > Rosen, Ph.D.

> > www.Mold-Books. com

> >

>

______________________________________________________________________

______________

> The fish are biting.

> Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.

> http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php

>

May 7, 2007

Amy, Wane,

A furnace and an air handler are not the

same. In the northeast handlers and being used more and more i.e. hot air over

hot water or system 2000. I also designed and installed mine as well. It is more

cost effective than a furnace in out areas (depending on your needs). You get the

benefit of the boiler (for hot water) and you can zone it out quite nicely. In

addition, using the air handlers off a boiler allows you to get your AC through

the duct system as well. A tidbit of info; air handlers are to be inspected

minimally once a year verses a duct system every 2 years (residential per NADCA).

EnviroBob

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Amy Siedlecki

Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 11:20

AM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: Re: Mold

Assessments and Air Handlers

Good Morning, Wane!

For the record, in the posts concerning HVAC I used the term " air

handler " generically for the purpose of simplicity. My posts

were also ridden with typos as a result of using text messaging to communicate

this weekend. But I must chime in here and mention that not all

residential forced air units are classified as furnaces. Heat pumps, for

example, move warm air through ducts but do not use combustion. Amy

Re:

Mold Assessments and Air Handlers

wow.

now we have " certified mold assessors " checking air handling

equipment. that's just great.

since

this listserv seems to be endlessly

stuck on residential work, let's start here. it's not

an " air handling unit " , it's a forced-air furnace. in most

residential forced-air furnace installations, the A-coil (evaporator) is

inaccessible. and if you're cutting into the sheet metal supply air

plenum to access the A-coil, you'd damn well better know what you're doing

-- otherwise, you could slice into the refrigerant lines or the coil

itself. this is not a task for mold inspectors with " some

minimal training " .

if there

is a reason to examine a residential evaporator, have an HVAC contractor create

that opening for you. and of course! --make sure it's patched

properly. this does NOT mean an oversized blank and a few zip

screws. the patch must be hemmed, cross-broken and caulked or

ideally, gasketed.

if we're

talking about anything other

than residential work, and you don't have an

appropriate background in engineering or HVAC contracting -- STOP!!

do not pass GO, do not collect $200 (or two cents, for that matter).

commercial, institutional and industrial air handling systems get complex in a

hurry. and more often that not, problems with those systems are in the

operating controls. so again, unless you're an expert in the associated

controls, call for someone who does know what they're doing --please?

this does not mean a CIH, one of the Council's certs, or a Pizza hut

Delivery in biochemistry.

finally,

for a residential investigation of elevated humidity levels, many times the

first place to look is the water heater -- not the forced-air furnace. if

you don't know why, stop doing mold work right now and go back to whatever it

is you were doing last week.

Wane

<><><><><><><><><><><>

Wane

A. Baker, P.E., CIH

Division

Manager, Indoor Air Quality

MICHAELS

ENGINEERING

" Real Professionals. Real Solutions. "

St. , La Crosse,

Milwaukee

Phone

, ext. 484

Cell

Fax

mailto:wabmichaelsengineering

On the web at: http://www.michaelsengineering.com

" To

love what you do and feel that it matters - how could anything be more

fun? "

- Graham

> Amy said ...

>

> " The condition should be noted in the report and deferred for further

inspection by an HVAC expert "

>

> What condition? You need to open it up to see if there is a condition. You

don't need to be an expert to check inside an air handler. Just some minimal

training that is not provided by any of the mold training courses.

>

> Rosen, Ph.D.

> www.Mold-Books.com

>

May 7, 2007

Amy, Wane,

A furnace and an air handler are not the

same. In the northeast handlers and being used more and more i.e. hot air over

hot water or system 2000. I also designed and installed mine as well. It is more

cost effective than a furnace in out areas (depending on your needs). You get the

benefit of the boiler (for hot water) and you can zone it out quite nicely. In

addition, using the air handlers off a boiler allows you to get your AC through

the duct system as well. A tidbit of info; air handlers are to be inspected

minimally once a year verses a duct system every 2 years (residential per NADCA).

EnviroBob

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Amy Siedlecki

Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 11:20

AM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: Re: Mold

Assessments and Air Handlers

Good Morning, Wane!

For the record, in the posts concerning HVAC I used the term " air

handler " generically for the purpose of simplicity. My posts

were also ridden with typos as a result of using text messaging to communicate

this weekend. But I must chime in here and mention that not all

residential forced air units are classified as furnaces. Heat pumps, for

example, move warm air through ducts but do not use combustion. Amy

Re:

Mold Assessments and Air Handlers

wow.

now we have " certified mold assessors " checking air handling

equipment. that's just great.

since

this listserv seems to be endlessly

stuck on residential work, let's start here. it's not

an " air handling unit " , it's a forced-air furnace. in most

residential forced-air furnace installations, the A-coil (evaporator) is

inaccessible. and if you're cutting into the sheet metal supply air

plenum to access the A-coil, you'd damn well better know what you're doing

-- otherwise, you could slice into the refrigerant lines or the coil

itself. this is not a task for mold inspectors with " some

minimal training " .

if there

is a reason to examine a residential evaporator, have an HVAC contractor create

that opening for you. and of course! --make sure it's patched

properly. this does NOT mean an oversized blank and a few zip

screws. the patch must be hemmed, cross-broken and caulked or

ideally, gasketed.

if we're

talking about anything other

than residential work, and you don't have an

appropriate background in engineering or HVAC contracting -- STOP!!

do not pass GO, do not collect $200 (or two cents, for that matter).

commercial, institutional and industrial air handling systems get complex in a

hurry. and more often that not, problems with those systems are in the

operating controls. so again, unless you're an expert in the associated

controls, call for someone who does know what they're doing --please?

this does not mean a CIH, one of the Council's certs, or a Pizza hut

Delivery in biochemistry.

finally,

for a residential investigation of elevated humidity levels, many times the

first place to look is the water heater -- not the forced-air furnace. if

you don't know why, stop doing mold work right now and go back to whatever it

is you were doing last week.

Wane

<><><><><><><><><><><>

Wane

A. Baker, P.E., CIH

Division

Manager, Indoor Air Quality

MICHAELS

ENGINEERING

" Real Professionals. Real Solutions. "

St. , La Crosse,

Milwaukee

Phone

, ext. 484

Cell

Fax

mailto:wabmichaelsengineering

On the web at: http://www.michaelsengineering.com

" To

love what you do and feel that it matters - how could anything be more

fun? "

- Graham

> Amy said ...

>

> " The condition should be noted in the report and deferred for further

inspection by an HVAC expert "

>

> What condition? You need to open it up to see if there is a condition. You

don't need to be an expert to check inside an air handler. Just some minimal

training that is not provided by any of the mold training courses.

>

> Rosen, Ph.D.

> www.Mold-Books.com

>

May 7, 2007

Don,

Agreed. But this is not how it is done in the US. As an example.

Training for a CRMI (Certified Residential Mold Inspector) is 2 days of focused training on mold sampling according to IESO standards with hands on practice. The pre-requisite now is being a home inspector. So if you hire a CRMI you have someone that knows about water damage, opening ACs as well as … testing.

The CRMI is not permitted to do PRV. And if mold is found they have to refer the client to an EC. The CRMI has low cost good quality mold insurance because they have limited responsibilities and are well trained (should be) for those responsibilities.

Compare this to training for a CIE (Certified Indoor Environmentalist) or EC from the same organization. Training is 4-5 days but is very broad and is not focused on mold. As a result they have much less training on mold than the CRMI. They actually have no training and certification testing on IESO mold sampling standards in the CIE course. Because these certificants were not previously home inspectors (or builders) they often have very limited knowledge of home inspecting (building science) which cannot be taught in a 4-5 day course.

The CIE is said to have building science knowledge including:

Building Sciences – The Environmental Consultant understands the building envelope and has experience in the disciplines related to the design, construction and operation of buildings. These disciplines include architecture, building codes, HVAC, plumbing, insulation, concrete and building materials, weather proofing, facilities maintenance, acoustics, ergonomics, air and moisture flows, pressure relationships, temperature and humidity monitoring, infrared thermography and diagnostic air sampling.

But he typically does not have this knowledge.

If I want to call a CRMI to do a PRV after I do mold remediation work I cannot because his insurance does not let him do PRVs.

If I call a CIE to do a PRV, even though he has less mold training than the CRMI and no formal training in IESO standards bases sampling ... he can do the PRV since he does not have any mold insurance that limits what he does. Insurance for him would be expensive because it has to cover Errors & Omissions in inspections related to all the building sciences mentioned above include building codes, HVAC etc.

And if I don’t call this uninsured CIE with extremely limited training to do PRV after a mold remediation job and do the testing myself (even though I am a CIEC and CRMI) somehow there is a conflict of interest on my part.

That is the system we now have in the US. The states are attempting to replace the current system developed by non-profit organizations with state run systems. They are attempting to do so not because everything is running well, but because of massive levels of complaints from home owners telling them they need to be protected by unscrupulous operators. (This may vary from state to state but is certainly the case here.)

Here’s the quote from my state as to why they want to regulate mold people:

The Legislature finds it necessary in the interest of the public safety and welfare, to prevent damage to the real and personal property, to avert economic injury to the residents of this state, and to regulate persons and companies that hold themselves out to the public as qualified to perform mold-related services.

Rosen, Ph.D.

www.Mold-Books.com

Re: Mold Assessments and Air Handlers

:Right you are that checking a residential AC system is not brain surgery! That is why any EC worth their fee would of course check out the system, if they were hired to review the potential for mold growth in a home. I don't know about the EC's in southern Florida, but here in Canada the EC's always check the heating system, including the supply vents and return ducts.As Wane stated, a commercial or industrial building's HVAC system is far more complex. There is a good idea to have a mechanical engineer along on the inspection to discuss the system with the building's operators. Again, any EC worth their fee would do this. If the EC's in Florida are failing to do so, then they should not be the ones hired to perform this type of work. As far as training goes, it would be recommended that anyone performing this type of inspection in homes have a basic building sciences course, and perhaps a more

advanced ventilation system course. Not to become a PE in mechanical engineering. But to understand how a system operates.On insurance, as I have previously stated, if an EC doesn't have E & O insurance, then this would be the consultant of choice for this type of work.Don > > Amy said ...> > > > "The condition should be noted in the report and deferred for further inspection by an HVAC expert"> > > > What condition? You need to open it up to see if there is a condition. You don't need to be an expert to check inside an air handler. Just some minimal training that is not provided by any of the mold training courses.> > > > Rosen,

Ph.D.> > www.Mold-Books. com> > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _____________ __> The fish are biting. > Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.> http://searchmarket ing.yahoo. com/arp/sponsore dsearch_v2. php>

Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check out

new cars at Yahoo! Autos.

May 7, 2007

Don,

Agreed. But this is not how it is done in the US. As an example.

Training for a CRMI (Certified Residential Mold Inspector) is 2 days of focused training on mold sampling according to IESO standards with hands on practice. The pre-requisite now is being a home inspector. So if you hire a CRMI you have someone that knows about water damage, opening ACs as well as … testing.

The CRMI is not permitted to do PRV. And if mold is found they have to refer the client to an EC. The CRMI has low cost good quality mold insurance because they have limited responsibilities and are well trained (should be) for those responsibilities.

Compare this to training for a CIE (Certified Indoor Environmentalist) or EC from the same organization. Training is 4-5 days but is very broad and is not focused on mold. As a result they have much less training on mold than the CRMI. They actually have no training and certification testing on IESO mold sampling standards in the CIE course. Because these certificants were not previously home inspectors (or builders) they often have very limited knowledge of home inspecting (building science) which cannot be taught in a 4-5 day course.

The CIE is said to have building science knowledge including:

Building Sciences – The Environmental Consultant understands the building envelope and has experience in the disciplines related to the design, construction and operation of buildings. These disciplines include architecture, building codes, HVAC, plumbing, insulation, concrete and building materials, weather proofing, facilities maintenance, acoustics, ergonomics, air and moisture flows, pressure relationships, temperature and humidity monitoring, infrared thermography and diagnostic air sampling.

But he typically does not have this knowledge.

If I want to call a CRMI to do a PRV after I do mold remediation work I cannot because his insurance does not let him do PRVs.

If I call a CIE to do a PRV, even though he has less mold training than the CRMI and no formal training in IESO standards bases sampling ... he can do the PRV since he does not have any mold insurance that limits what he does. Insurance for him would be expensive because it has to cover Errors & Omissions in inspections related to all the building sciences mentioned above include building codes, HVAC etc.

And if I don’t call this uninsured CIE with extremely limited training to do PRV after a mold remediation job and do the testing myself (even though I am a CIEC and CRMI) somehow there is a conflict of interest on my part.

That is the system we now have in the US. The states are attempting to replace the current system developed by non-profit organizations with state run systems. They are attempting to do so not because everything is running well, but because of massive levels of complaints from home owners telling them they need to be protected by unscrupulous operators. (This may vary from state to state but is certainly the case here.)

Here’s the quote from my state as to why they want to regulate mold people:

The Legislature finds it necessary in the interest of the public safety and welfare, to prevent damage to the real and personal property, to avert economic injury to the residents of this state, and to regulate persons and companies that hold themselves out to the public as qualified to perform mold-related services.

Rosen, Ph.D.

www.Mold-Books.com

Re: Mold Assessments and Air Handlers

:Right you are that checking a residential AC system is not brain surgery! That is why any EC worth their fee would of course check out the system, if they were hired to review the potential for mold growth in a home. I don't know about the EC's in southern Florida, but here in Canada the EC's always check the heating system, including the supply vents and return ducts.As Wane stated, a commercial or industrial building's HVAC system is far more complex. There is a good idea to have a mechanical engineer along on the inspection to discuss the system with the building's operators. Again, any EC worth their fee would do this. If the EC's in Florida are failing to do so, then they should not be the ones hired to perform this type of work. As far as training goes, it would be recommended that anyone performing this type of inspection in homes have a basic building sciences course, and perhaps a more

advanced ventilation system course. Not to become a PE in mechanical engineering. But to understand how a system operates.On insurance, as I have previously stated, if an EC doesn't have E & O insurance, then this would be the consultant of choice for this type of work.Don > > Amy said ...> > > > "The condition should be noted in the report and deferred for further inspection by an HVAC expert"> > > > What condition? You need to open it up to see if there is a condition. You don't need to be an expert to check inside an air handler. Just some minimal training that is not provided by any of the mold training courses.> > > > Rosen,

Ph.D.> > www.Mold-Books. com> > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _____________ __> The fish are biting. > Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.> http://searchmarket ing.yahoo. com/arp/sponsore dsearch_v2. php>

Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check out

new cars at Yahoo! Autos.

May 7, 2007

,

Without getting in to the other issues I

see in your comments a CRMI is not qualified to do PRV. You being a CRMI should

know that. A CRMI is only certified to take a sample to confirm microbial

contamination and after confirmed direct the client to a certified consultant

is qualified i.e. CIE or CIEC.

What is more puzzling is if you being a

CRMI, why didn’t you grandfather into a CMI or CMC by taking the supplemental

exam? By your own comments you disqualify yourself from performing PVR. Again,

based on your own statement you are not qualified to do PRV on small or large

jobs in Florida

and/or anywhere else.

EnviroBob

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of gary rosen

Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 2:14 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: Re: Mold

Assessments and Air Handlers

Don,

Agreed. But this is not how it is done in the US.

As an example.

Training for a CRMI (Certified Residential Mold Inspector) is 2

days of focused training on mold sampling according to IESO standards with

hands on practice. The pre-requisite now is being a home inspector. So if

you hire a CRMI you have someone that knows about water damage, opening ACs as

well as … testing.

The CRMI is not permitted to do PRV. And if mold is found they

have to refer the client to an EC. The CRMI has low cost good quality

mold insurance because they have limited responsibilities and are well trained

(should be) for those responsibilities.

Compare this to training for a CIE (Certified Indoor

Environmentalist) or EC from the same organization. Training is 4-5 days but is

very broad and is not focused on mold. As a result they have much less training

on mold than the CRMI. They actually have no training and certification

testing on IESO mold sampling standards in the CIE course. Because these

certificants were not previously home inspectors (or builders) they often have

very limited knowledge of home inspecting (building science) which cannot be

taught in a 4-5 day course.

The CIE is said to have building science knowledge including:

Building

Sciences – The Environmental Consultant understands the building envelope

and has experience in the disciplines related to the design, construction and

operation of buildings. These disciplines include architecture, building

codes, HVAC, plumbing, insulation, concrete and building materials, weather proofing,

facilities maintenance, acoustics, ergonomics, air and moisture flows, pressure

relationships, temperature and humidity monitoring, infrared thermography and

diagnostic air sampling.

But he typically does not have this knowledge.

If I want to call a CRMI to do a PRV after I do mold remediation

work I cannot because his insurance does not let him do PRVs.

If I call a CIE to do a PRV, even though he has less mold training

than the CRMI and no formal training in IESO standards bases sampling

.... he can do the PRV since he does not have any mold insurance that

limits what he does. Insurance for him would be expensive because it has

to cover Errors & Omissions in inspections related to all the building

sciences mentioned above include building codes, HVAC etc.

And if I don’t call this uninsured CIE with extremely

limited training to do PRV after a mold remediation job and do the testing

myself (even though I am a CIEC and CRMI) somehow there is a conflict of

interest on my part.

That is the system we now have in the US. The

states are attempting to replace the current system developed by non-profit

organizations with state run systems. They are attempting to do so not

because everything is running well, but because of massive levels of complaints

from home owners telling them they need to be protected by unscrupulous

operators. (This may vary from state to state but is certainly the case here.)

Here’s the quote from my state as to why they want to

regulate mold people:

The

Legislature finds it necessary in the interest of the public safety and

welfare, to prevent damage to the real and personal property, to avert economic

injury to the residents of this state, and to regulate persons and companies

that hold themselves out to the public as qualified to perform mold-related

services.

Rosen, Ph.D.

www.Mold-Books.com

Re: Mold Assessments and Air Handlers

:

Right you are that checking a residential AC system is not brain

surgery! That is why any EC worth their fee would of course check

out the system, if they were hired to review the potential for mold

growth in a home. I don't know about the EC's in southern Florida,

but here in Canada

the EC's always check the heating system,

including the supply vents and return ducts.

As Wane stated, a commercial or industrial building's HVAC system is

far more complex. There is a good idea to have a mechanical engineer

along on the inspection to discuss the system with the building's

operators. Again, any EC worth their fee would do this. If the EC's

in Florida

are failing to do so, then they should not be the ones

hired to perform this type of work.

As far as training goes, it would be recommended that anyone

performing this type of inspection in homes have a basic building

sciences course, and perhaps a more advanced ventilation system

course. Not to become a PE in mechanical engineering. But to

understand how a system operates.

On insurance, as I have previously stated, if an EC doesn't have E & O

insurance, then this would be the consultant of choice for this type

of work.

Don

> > Amy said ...

> >

> > " The condition should be noted in the report and deferred for

further inspection by an HVAC expert "

> >

> > What condition? You need to open it up to see if there is a

condition. You don't need to be an expert to check inside an air

handler. Just some minimal training that is not provided by any of

the mold training courses.

> >

> > Rosen, Ph.D.

> > www.Mold-Books. com

> >

>

____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

____________ __

> The fish are biting.

> Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.

> http://searchmarket ing.yahoo. com/arp/sponsore dsearch_v2. php

>

Ahhh...imagining that irresistible " new car " smell?

Check out new

cars at Yahoo! Autos.

May 7, 2007

,

Without getting in to the other issues I

see in your comments a CRMI is not qualified to do PRV. You being a CRMI should

know that. A CRMI is only certified to take a sample to confirm microbial

contamination and after confirmed direct the client to a certified consultant

is qualified i.e. CIE or CIEC.

What is more puzzling is if you being a

CRMI, why didn’t you grandfather into a CMI or CMC by taking the supplemental

exam? By your own comments you disqualify yourself from performing PVR. Again,

based on your own statement you are not qualified to do PRV on small or large

jobs in Florida

and/or anywhere else.

EnviroBob

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of gary rosen

Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 2:14 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: Re: Mold

Assessments and Air Handlers

Don,

Agreed. But this is not how it is done in the US.

As an example.

Training for a CRMI (Certified Residential Mold Inspector) is 2

days of focused training on mold sampling according to IESO standards with

hands on practice. The pre-requisite now is being a home inspector. So if

you hire a CRMI you have someone that knows about water damage, opening ACs as

well as … testing.

The CRMI is not permitted to do PRV. And if mold is found they

have to refer the client to an EC. The CRMI has low cost good quality

mold insurance because they have limited responsibilities and are well trained

(should be) for those responsibilities.

Compare this to training for a CIE (Certified Indoor

Environmentalist) or EC from the same organization. Training is 4-5 days but is

very broad and is not focused on mold. As a result they have much less training

on mold than the CRMI. They actually have no training and certification

testing on IESO mold sampling standards in the CIE course. Because these

certificants were not previously home inspectors (or builders) they often have

very limited knowledge of home inspecting (building science) which cannot be

taught in a 4-5 day course.

The CIE is said to have building science knowledge including:

Building

Sciences – The Environmental Consultant understands the building envelope

and has experience in the disciplines related to the design, construction and

operation of buildings. These disciplines include architecture, building

codes, HVAC, plumbing, insulation, concrete and building materials, weather proofing,

facilities maintenance, acoustics, ergonomics, air and moisture flows, pressure

relationships, temperature and humidity monitoring, infrared thermography and

diagnostic air sampling.

But he typically does not have this knowledge.

If I want to call a CRMI to do a PRV after I do mold remediation

work I cannot because his insurance does not let him do PRVs.

If I call a CIE to do a PRV, even though he has less mold training

than the CRMI and no formal training in IESO standards bases sampling

.... he can do the PRV since he does not have any mold insurance that

limits what he does. Insurance for him would be expensive because it has

to cover Errors & Omissions in inspections related to all the building

sciences mentioned above include building codes, HVAC etc.

And if I don’t call this uninsured CIE with extremely

limited training to do PRV after a mold remediation job and do the testing

myself (even though I am a CIEC and CRMI) somehow there is a conflict of

interest on my part.

That is the system we now have in the US. The

states are attempting to replace the current system developed by non-profit

organizations with state run systems. They are attempting to do so not

because everything is running well, but because of massive levels of complaints

from home owners telling them they need to be protected by unscrupulous

operators. (This may vary from state to state but is certainly the case here.)

Here’s the quote from my state as to why they want to

regulate mold people:

The

Legislature finds it necessary in the interest of the public safety and

welfare, to prevent damage to the real and personal property, to avert economic

injury to the residents of this state, and to regulate persons and companies

that hold themselves out to the public as qualified to perform mold-related

services.

Rosen, Ph.D.

www.Mold-Books.com

Re: Mold Assessments and Air Handlers

:

Right you are that checking a residential AC system is not brain

surgery! That is why any EC worth their fee would of course check

out the system, if they were hired to review the potential for mold

growth in a home. I don't know about the EC's in southern Florida,

but here in Canada

the EC's always check the heating system,

including the supply vents and return ducts.

As Wane stated, a commercial or industrial building's HVAC system is

far more complex. There is a good idea to have a mechanical engineer

along on the inspection to discuss the system with the building's

operators. Again, any EC worth their fee would do this. If the EC's

in Florida

are failing to do so, then they should not be the ones

hired to perform this type of work.

As far as training goes, it would be recommended that anyone

performing this type of inspection in homes have a basic building

sciences course, and perhaps a more advanced ventilation system

course. Not to become a PE in mechanical engineering. But to

understand how a system operates.

On insurance, as I have previously stated, if an EC doesn't have E & O

insurance, then this would be the consultant of choice for this type

of work.

Don

> > Amy said ...

> >

> > " The condition should be noted in the report and deferred for

further inspection by an HVAC expert "

> >

> > What condition? You need to open it up to see if there is a

condition. You don't need to be an expert to check inside an air

handler. Just some minimal training that is not provided by any of

the mold training courses.

> >

> > Rosen, Ph.D.

> > www.Mold-Books. com

> >

>

____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

____________ __

> The fish are biting.

> Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.

> http://searchmarket ing.yahoo. com/arp/sponsore dsearch_v2. php

>

Ahhh...imagining that irresistible " new car " smell?

Check out new

cars at Yahoo! Autos.

May 7, 2007

:

Interesting example! Since I have none of these designations (CRMI;

CIE; etc.) but an simply a humble CIH and CSP, I would be interested

in those who do have these accreditations as to their reaction to

this example. Any takers?

On the PRV conflict of interest, IMHO, it is a third party consultant

that can perform a PRV on mold remediation, not the remediator

itself. The RC can perform QC testing, but not the PRV. It is not

right for anyone performing this type of work to evaluate their own

work.

On the reasons for the Florida proposed reg's: I agree with the

legislature that the public needs protection from

unscrupulous 'operators' on both the EC and RC side.

Just for the record: the majority of my career was spent in the US

(30 years). I have been in Canada for just the past two years. I

have been conducting mold assessments and PRV's for the past ten

years, both in the US and in Canada.

Don

> > > Amy said ...

> > >

> > > " The condition should be noted in the report and deferred for

> further inspection by an HVAC expert "

> > >

> > > What condition? You need to open it up to see if there is a

> condition. You don't need to be an expert to check inside an air

> handler. Just some minimal training that is not provided by any of

> the mold training courses.

> > >

> > > Rosen, Ph.D.

> > > www.Mold-Books. com

> > >

> >

> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

> ____________ __

> > The fish are biting.

> > Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.

> > http://searchmarket ing.yahoo. com/arp/sponsore dsearch_v2. php

> >

>

> __________________________________________________

>

May 7, 2007

:

Interesting example! Since I have none of these designations (CRMI;

CIE; etc.) but an simply a humble CIH and CSP, I would be interested

in those who do have these accreditations as to their reaction to

this example. Any takers?

On the PRV conflict of interest, IMHO, it is a third party consultant

that can perform a PRV on mold remediation, not the remediator

itself. The RC can perform QC testing, but not the PRV. It is not

right for anyone performing this type of work to evaluate their own

work.

On the reasons for the Florida proposed reg's: I agree with the

legislature that the public needs protection from

unscrupulous 'operators' on both the EC and RC side.

Just for the record: the majority of my career was spent in the US

(30 years). I have been in Canada for just the past two years. I

have been conducting mold assessments and PRV's for the past ten

years, both in the US and in Canada.

Don

> > > Amy said ...

> > >

> > > " The condition should be noted in the report and deferred for

> further inspection by an HVAC expert "

> > >

> > > What condition? You need to open it up to see if there is a

> condition. You don't need to be an expert to check inside an air

> handler. Just some minimal training that is not provided by any of

> the mold training courses.

> > >

> > > Rosen, Ph.D.

> > > www.Mold-Books. com

> > >

> >

> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

> ____________ __

> > The fish are biting.

> > Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.

> > http://searchmarket ing.yahoo. com/arp/sponsore dsearch_v2. php

> >

>

> __________________________________________________

>

May 7, 2007

Steve,

Try a 3M Merv 11 with wire mesh for support if you have problems with cheap Merv 11 filters collapsing.

Are you trying to say that mold sensitive people should use cheap filters that don't filter out mold spores because you had a client where a cheap Merv 11 filter collapsed?

What is your point here Steve?

It sounds like the typical consultant scam. Don't use a good air filter because if you do, you will feel better and won't call a consultant.

Rosen, Ph.D.

www.Mold-Books.com

Re: Re: Mold Assessments and Air Handlers

He/she actually thinks he can diagnose a sick house after the course.How do you know what he/she actually thinks?There are no restrictions. He carries no E & O insurance so why does he care if

he errs or omits?So the only reason you care if you err or omit is because you have $5 Mill in E & O insurance? Is this supposed to make sense to anyone but you? Home inspectors without insurance who get sued stand to lose their personal assets. They do things like put their house in their wife's name in an attempt to save it.Unlike the CRMI course the CIE does not need to have any training in home

inspection. There is no disclosure that he is not qualified to check the AC and will not even look at it ... even though 70-80% of sick people (per Sherry) are sick from mold contaminated ACs at least in S FLA.This is not what Sherry even said. He spoke of duct construction in walls and fiberglass being of concern as well. You project your own "made-up facts" on others in statements using broad generalities all the time. He said, "I also believe that for about 70-80% of people lliving in a

sick house, the cause is the air-handling unit, associated ducts and plenum and presence of holes in walls that allow air from inner wall cavities to enter air-handling unit. Let's not forget about the figerglass insulation present on inside of air-handling unit or the pathetic "filter" included in many new air-handlers." For someone who thinks that putting in a high-efficiency (MERV 11 or whatever) filter in a residential air handling unit filter slot/track and keeping the fan running 24/7 is a solution to an air contamination problem, you shouldn't be throwing stones. Your "solution" has the potential to cause problems due to static pressure drop and restricted air flow (possible icing up of coils or cracked heat exchanger). And you lose capture velocity at the return(s) due to lower air flow rates. If the system is not balanced and

the building envelope and/or duct system is not sealed well, your solution can also suck in lots of humid air and create high humidity and mold in the air conditioning season, especially in FL. It is obvious to me that you are not the expert you think you are on air handling systems, either, .Here is a photo that is going into the report I am working on today. The 1" pleated media filter collapsed due to static pressure and only bypass was occurring. It seemed like a good idea to my client's mechanical service contractor, too.Steve Temes

May 7, 2007

Steve,

Try a 3M Merv 11 with wire mesh for support if you have problems with cheap Merv 11 filters collapsing.

Are you trying to say that mold sensitive people should use cheap filters that don't filter out mold spores because you had a client where a cheap Merv 11 filter collapsed?

What is your point here Steve?

It sounds like the typical consultant scam. Don't use a good air filter because if you do, you will feel better and won't call a consultant.

Rosen, Ph.D.

www.Mold-Books.com

Re: Re: Mold Assessments and Air Handlers

He/she actually thinks he can diagnose a sick house after the course.How do you know what he/she actually thinks?There are no restrictions. He carries no E & O insurance so why does he care if

he errs or omits?So the only reason you care if you err or omit is because you have $5 Mill in E & O insurance? Is this supposed to make sense to anyone but you? Home inspectors without insurance who get sued stand to lose their personal assets. They do things like put their house in their wife's name in an attempt to save it.Unlike the CRMI course the CIE does not need to have any training in home

inspection. There is no disclosure that he is not qualified to check the AC and will not even look at it ... even though 70-80% of sick people (per Sherry) are sick from mold contaminated ACs at least in S FLA.This is not what Sherry even said. He spoke of duct construction in walls and fiberglass being of concern as well. You project your own "made-up facts" on others in statements using broad generalities all the time. He said, "I also believe that for about 70-80% of people lliving in a

sick house, the cause is the air-handling unit, associated ducts and plenum and presence of holes in walls that allow air from inner wall cavities to enter air-handling unit. Let's not forget about the figerglass insulation present on inside of air-handling unit or the pathetic "filter" included in many new air-handlers." For someone who thinks that putting in a high-efficiency (MERV 11 or whatever) filter in a residential air handling unit filter slot/track and keeping the fan running 24/7 is a solution to an air contamination problem, you shouldn't be throwing stones. Your "solution" has the potential to cause problems due to static pressure drop and restricted air flow (possible icing up of coils or cracked heat exchanger). And you lose capture velocity at the return(s) due to lower air flow rates. If the system is not balanced and

the building envelope and/or duct system is not sealed well, your solution can also suck in lots of humid air and create high humidity and mold in the air conditioning season, especially in FL. It is obvious to me that you are not the expert you think you are on air handling systems, either, .Here is a photo that is going into the report I am working on today. The 1" pleated media filter collapsed due to static pressure and only bypass was occurring. It seemed like a good idea to my client's mechanical service contractor, too.Steve Temes

May 7, 2007

Don,

The answer is that people mostly want whatever is cheap and easy. The industry clearly is not going toward more rigorous programs.

The latest thing is that you can now take 100% of your training to be a CIE over the internet. No course attendence required. No hands on. I would assume that people with such training could not be eligible for mold E & O. But very few have insurance so I guess that is not a concern.

Rosen, Ph.D.

www.Mold-Books.com

Re: Mold Assessments and Air Handlers

:Interesting example! Since I have none of these designations (CRMI; CIE; etc.) but an simply a humble CIH and CSP, I would be interested in those who do have these accreditations as to their reaction to this example. Any takers?On the PRV conflict of interest, IMHO, it is a third party consultant that can perform a PRV on mold remediation, not the remediator itself. The RC can perform QC testing, but not the PRV. It is not right for anyone performing this type of work to evaluate their own work.On the reasons for the Florida proposed reg's: I agree with the legislature that the public needs protection from unscrupulous 'operators' on both the EC and RC side.Just for the record: the majority of my career was spent in the US (30 years). I have been in Canada for just the past two years. I have been conducting mold assessments and PRV's for the past ten years, both in the US and in

Canada.Don > > > Amy said ...> > > > > > "The condition should be noted in the report and deferred for > further inspection by an HVAC expert"> > > > > > What condition? You need to open it up

to see if there is a > condition. You don't need to be an expert to check inside an air > handler. Just some minimal training that is not provided by any of > the mold training courses.> > > > > > Rosen, Ph.D.> > > www.Mold-Books. com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _> ____________ __> > The fish are biting. > > Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.> > http://searchmarket ing.yahoo. com/arp/sponsore dsearch_v2. php> >> > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __>

May 7, 2007

Don,

The answer is that people mostly want whatever is cheap and easy. The industry clearly is not going toward more rigorous programs.

The latest thing is that you can now take 100% of your training to be a CIE over the internet. No course attendence required. No hands on. I would assume that people with such training could not be eligible for mold E & O. But very few have insurance so I guess that is not a concern.

Rosen, Ph.D.

www.Mold-Books.com

Re: Mold Assessments and Air Handlers

:Interesting example! Since I have none of these designations (CRMI; CIE; etc.) but an simply a humble CIH and CSP, I would be interested in those who do have these accreditations as to their reaction to this example. Any takers?On the PRV conflict of interest, IMHO, it is a third party consultant that can perform a PRV on mold remediation, not the remediator itself. The RC can perform QC testing, but not the PRV. It is not right for anyone performing this type of work to evaluate their own work.On the reasons for the Florida proposed reg's: I agree with the legislature that the public needs protection from unscrupulous 'operators' on both the EC and RC side.Just for the record: the majority of my career was spent in the US (30 years). I have been in Canada for just the past two years. I have been conducting mold assessments and PRV's for the past ten years, both in the US and in

Canada.Don > > > Amy said ...> > > > > > "The condition should be noted in the report and deferred for > further inspection by an HVAC expert"> > > > > > What condition? You need to open it up

to see if there is a > condition. You don't need to be an expert to check inside an air > handler. Just some minimal training that is not provided by any of > the mold training courses.> > > > > > Rosen, Ph.D.> > > www.Mold-Books. com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _> ____________ __> > The fish are biting. > > Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.> > http://searchmarket ing.yahoo. com/arp/sponsore dsearch_v2. php> >> > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __>

May 7, 2007

said (in a very large font):

"Training for a CRMI (Certified Residential Mold Inspector) is 2 days of focused training on mold sampling according to IESO standards with hands on practice. The pre-requisite now is being a home inspector. So if you hire a CRMI you have someone that knows about water damage, opening ACs as well as … testing."

and: "If I call a CIE to do a PRV, even though he has less mold training than the CRMI and no formal training in IESO standards bases [sic] sampling ... he can do the PRV since he does not have any mold insurance that limits what he does [huh?]."

this would be absolutely jim-freaking-dandy IF AND ONLY IF the so-called "standards" issued by the IESO were worth the paper they're printed on. unfortunately, they're not.

and just because you've been a home inspector for a whopping two whole years doesn't mean you're qualified to cut into sheet metal! where does one get these ideas?? are you also EPA-certified to pump down and recharge that system when you cut into the refrigerant lines or slice into the coil? what a minute, oops! too late -- you've already vented that refrigerant charge to atmosphere. (oh well, that hole in the ozone layer isn't really so big, or is it?)

I've asked this question before of , but (to my knowledge) never received a reply: do you have any idea how the IESO "standards" were created, or who authored them? just because a piece of paper says "I'm a Standard" doesn't mean it's worth following! I'd love to be working (again) for opposing counsel against anyone who attemps to justify their sampling and interpretive procedures based on the IESO "standards".

I'll say it again, and unabashedly: for anyone who has actually studied the available technical literature, it's abundantly clear: they're a joke, people!!

<><><><><><><><><><><> Wane A. Baker, P.E., CIH Division Manager, Indoor Air Quality MICHAELS ENGINEERING"Real Professionals. Real Solutions." St. , La Crosse, Milwaukee

Phone , ext. 484 Cell Fax

mailto:wab@... On the web at: http://www.michaelsengineering.com

"To love what you do and feel that it matters - how could anything be more fun?" - Graham

>> Don,> > Agreed. But this is not how it is done in the US. As an example.> > Training for a CRMI (Certified Residential Mold Inspector) is 2 days of focused training on mold sampling according to IESO standards with hands on practice. The pre-requisite now is being a home inspector. So if you hire a CRMI you have someone that knows about water damage, opening ACs as well as … testing.> > The CRMI is not permitted to do PRV. And if mold is found they have to refer the client to an EC. The CRMI has low cost good quality mold insurance because they have limited responsibilities and are well trained (should be) for those responsibilities.>

May 7, 2007

said (in a very large font):

"Training for a CRMI (Certified Residential Mold Inspector) is 2 days of focused training on mold sampling according to IESO standards with hands on practice. The pre-requisite now is being a home inspector. So if you hire a CRMI you have someone that knows about water damage, opening ACs as well as … testing."

and: "If I call a CIE to do a PRV, even though he has less mold training than the CRMI and no formal training in IESO standards bases [sic] sampling ... he can do the PRV since he does not have any mold insurance that limits what he does [huh?]."

this would be absolutely jim-freaking-dandy IF AND ONLY IF the so-called "standards" issued by the IESO were worth the paper they're printed on. unfortunately, they're not.

and just because you've been a home inspector for a whopping two whole years doesn't mean you're qualified to cut into sheet metal! where does one get these ideas?? are you also EPA-certified to pump down and recharge that system when you cut into the refrigerant lines or slice into the coil? what a minute, oops! too late -- you've already vented that refrigerant charge to atmosphere. (oh well, that hole in the ozone layer isn't really so big, or is it?)

I've asked this question before of , but (to my knowledge) never received a reply: do you have any idea how the IESO "standards" were created, or who authored them? just because a piece of paper says "I'm a Standard" doesn't mean it's worth following! I'd love to be working (again) for opposing counsel against anyone who attemps to justify their sampling and interpretive procedures based on the IESO "standards".

I'll say it again, and unabashedly: for anyone who has actually studied the available technical literature, it's abundantly clear: they're a joke, people!!

<><><><><><><><><><><> Wane A. Baker, P.E., CIH Division Manager, Indoor Air Quality MICHAELS ENGINEERING"Real Professionals. Real Solutions." St. , La Crosse, Milwaukee

Phone , ext. 484 Cell Fax

mailto:wab@... On the web at: http://www.michaelsengineering.com

"To love what you do and feel that it matters - how could anything be more fun?" - Graham

>> Don,> > Agreed. But this is not how it is done in the US. As an example.> > Training for a CRMI (Certified Residential Mold Inspector) is 2 days of focused training on mold sampling according to IESO standards with hands on practice. The pre-requisite now is being a home inspector. So if you hire a CRMI you have someone that knows about water damage, opening ACs as well as … testing.> > The CRMI is not permitted to do PRV. And if mold is found they have to refer the client to an EC. The CRMI has low cost good quality mold insurance because they have limited responsibilities and are well trained (should be) for those responsibilities.>

May 8, 2007

Are you trying to say that mold sensitive people should use cheap filters that don't filter out mold spores because you had a client where a cheap Merv 11 filter collapsed?

What is your point here Steve?

My point is that your solution to install a good filter and run the fan 24/7 to remove mold spores is not a solution and might do more harm than good. There shouldn't be a significant source of mold spores in an indoor environment and the focus should be on source elimination. If you tell mold sensitive people to rely on a furnace filter for particle removal, they are necessarily being exposed before the mold can be filtered, if it ever makes it to the filter, especially with restricted air flow (lower capture velocity).

I only raised the issue after reading your posts in which you portray yourself as a mechanical systems and mold expert and write about how terrible it is that everybody else doesn't know what you know and do what you do -- this time with regard to air handling systems. I get the sense that you won't be happy until the FL regulations say that you are the only one in the state qualified to do mold assessments and remediation. We get it. You are always right about everything, even when you are wrong.

Steve

May 8, 2007

Are you trying to say that mold sensitive people should use cheap filters that don't filter out mold spores because you had a client where a cheap Merv 11 filter collapsed?

What is your point here Steve?

My point is that your solution to install a good filter and run the fan 24/7 to remove mold spores is not a solution and might do more harm than good. There shouldn't be a significant source of mold spores in an indoor environment and the focus should be on source elimination. If you tell mold sensitive people to rely on a furnace filter for particle removal, they are necessarily being exposed before the mold can be filtered, if it ever makes it to the filter, especially with restricted air flow (lower capture velocity).

I only raised the issue after reading your posts in which you portray yourself as a mechanical systems and mold expert and write about how terrible it is that everybody else doesn't know what you know and do what you do -- this time with regard to air handling systems. I get the sense that you won't be happy until the FL regulations say that you are the only one in the state qualified to do mold assessments and remediation. We get it. You are always right about everything, even when you are wrong.

Steve

May 8, 2007

Wane,

The IESO standards for sampling are simply a compilation of the manufacturer's guidelines for the sampling material plus some common sense. There is nothing diabolical here!

This standard is an excellent reference and a good start for quality control during sampling.

Rosen, Ph.D.

www.Mold-Books.com

Re: Mold Assessments and Air Handlers

said (in a very large font):

"Training for a CRMI (Certified Residential Mold Inspector) is 2 days of focused training on mold sampling according to IESO standards with hands on practice. The pre-requisite now is being a home inspector. So if you hire a CRMI you have someone that knows about water damage, opening ACs as well as … testing."

and: "If I call a CIE to do a PRV, even though he has less mold training than the CRMI and no formal training in IESO standards bases [sic] sampling ... he can do the PRV since he does not have any mold insurance that limits what he does [huh?]."

this would be absolutely jim-freaking- dandy IF AND ONLY IF the so-called "standards" issued by the IESO were worth the paper they're printed on. unfortunately, they're not.

and just because you've been a home inspector for a whopping two whole years doesn't mean you're qualified to cut into sheet metal! where does one get these ideas?? are you also EPA-certified to pump down and recharge that system when you cut into the refrigerant lines or slice into the coil? what a minute, oops! too late -- you've already vented that refrigerant charge to atmosphere. (oh well, that hole in the ozone layer isn't really so big, or is it?)

I've asked this question before of , but (to my knowledge) never received a reply: do you have any idea how the IESO "standards" were created, or who authored them? just because a piece of paper says "I'm a Standard" doesn't mean it's worth following! I'd love to be working (again) for opposing counsel against anyone who attemps to justify their sampling and interpretive procedures based on the IESO "standards".

I'll say it again, and unabashedly: for anyone who has actually studied the available technical literature, it's abundantly clear: they're a joke, people!!

<><><><><><><><><><><> Wane A. Baker, P.E., CIH Division Manager, Indoor Air Quality MICHAELS ENGINEERING"Real Professionals. Real Solutions." St. , La Crosse, Milwaukee

Phone , ext. 484 Cell Fax

mailto:wab@michaels engineering. com On the web at: http://www.michaels engineering. com

"To love what you do and feel that it matters - how could anything be more fun?" - Graham

>> Don,> > Agreed. But this is not how it is done in the US. As an example.> > Training for a CRMI (Certified Residential Mold Inspector) is 2 days of focused training on mold sampling according to IESO standards with hands on practice. The pre-requisite now is being a home inspector. So if you hire a CRMI you have someone that knows about water damage, opening ACs as well as … testing.> > The CRMI is not permitted to do PRV. And if mold is found they have to refer the client to an EC. The CRMI has low cost good quality mold insurance because they have limited responsibilities and are well trained (should be) for those responsibilities.>

Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check out

new cars at Yahoo! Autos.

May 8, 2007

Wane,

The IESO standards for sampling are simply a compilation of the manufacturer's guidelines for the sampling material plus some common sense. There is nothing diabolical here!

This standard is an excellent reference and a good start for quality control during sampling.

Rosen, Ph.D.

www.Mold-Books.com

Re: Mold Assessments and Air Handlers

said (in a very large font):

"Training for a CRMI (Certified Residential Mold Inspector) is 2 days of focused training on mold sampling according to IESO standards with hands on practice. The pre-requisite now is being a home inspector. So if you hire a CRMI you have someone that knows about water damage, opening ACs as well as … testing."

and: "If I call a CIE to do a PRV, even though he has less mold training than the CRMI and no formal training in IESO standards bases [sic] sampling ... he can do the PRV since he does not have any mold insurance that limits what he does [huh?]."

this would be absolutely jim-freaking- dandy IF AND ONLY IF the so-called "standards" issued by the IESO were worth the paper they're printed on. unfortunately, they're not.

and just because you've been a home inspector for a whopping two whole years doesn't mean you're qualified to cut into sheet metal! where does one get these ideas?? are you also EPA-certified to pump down and recharge that system when you cut into the refrigerant lines or slice into the coil? what a minute, oops! too late -- you've already vented that refrigerant charge to atmosphere. (oh well, that hole in the ozone layer isn't really so big, or is it?)

I've asked this question before of , but (to my knowledge) never received a reply: do you have any idea how the IESO "standards" were created, or who authored them? just because a piece of paper says "I'm a Standard" doesn't mean it's worth following! I'd love to be working (again) for opposing counsel against anyone who attemps to justify their sampling and interpretive procedures based on the IESO "standards".

I'll say it again, and unabashedly: for anyone who has actually studied the available technical literature, it's abundantly clear: they're a joke, people!!

<><><><><><><><><><><> Wane A. Baker, P.E., CIH Division Manager, Indoor Air Quality MICHAELS ENGINEERING"Real Professionals. Real Solutions." St. , La Crosse, Milwaukee

Phone , ext. 484 Cell Fax

mailto:wab@michaels engineering. com On the web at: http://www.michaels engineering. com

"To love what you do and feel that it matters - how could anything be more fun?" - Graham

>> Don,> > Agreed. But this is not how it is done in the US. As an example.> > Training for a CRMI (Certified Residential Mold Inspector) is 2 days of focused training on mold sampling according to IESO standards with hands on practice. The pre-requisite now is being a home inspector. So if you hire a CRMI you have someone that knows about water damage, opening ACs as well as … testing.> > The CRMI is not permitted to do PRV. And if mold is found they have to refer the client to an EC. The CRMI has low cost good quality mold insurance because they have limited responsibilities and are well trained (should be) for those responsibilities.>

Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check out

new cars at Yahoo! Autos.

May 9, 2007

,

What I found when providing project oversight and clearance of commercial

ventilation systems, most HVAC cleaning contractors do not know how to mix

Oxine properly. Therefore, they are just adding water to the ventilation

system. On the application side, most contractors do not understand how to

wet-mist the ducting to achieve an even distribution of Oxine agent on all

surfaces. Application is a hit and miss proposition. One that often leads to

failure in clearance testing metal and plastic flex ducting.

Moffett

,

Interesting.

I don't have much experience with fire or locations with fumes or oils.

No doubt that is important.

I had not

really thought about smoking and the nastiness of ducts. But I am sure

that is something I missed now that you bring that up.

If the flex

ducts are nasty with any kind of film they can't be cleaned. But unless

the person is very sensitive they can handle pretty dirty ductwork just so long

as the air handler is clean and the supply plenum is pristine.

The Oxine

only works when the ducts are clean. No matter what you do to clean flex

they will not be clean compared to metal lined duct. I don't think the

issue is whether the material is metal lining or plastic lining but the amount

of dirt.

Fogging

with Oxine is a minor component of the process. We do it because it is

easy and cheap and may help a bit.

Rosen,

Ph.D.

www.Mold-Books.com

Mlold Assessments and Air Handlers

What responsibility does the mold assessor have to

understanding contamination in the air handler?

What responsibility does the mold assessor have in

understanding the EPA recommendations regarding cleaning air handlers and duct

work and the use of chemicals/ biocides to clean/ sanitize metal,

fiberglass plenums, and plastic lined ducting.

See the EPA pub:

Should You Have the Air

Ducts in Your Home Cleaned? www.epa.gov/iaq/pubs/airduct.html

According to the EPA, once fiberglass duct liner is

contaminated with mold it cannot be cleaned and must be replaced with new.

How many mold assessors are trained to know how to visually

inspect inside fiberglass plenums and properly repair the inspection point?

Why is this not part of mold assessor standard training

programs?

Is there a conflict of interest to have the mold assessor

inspect the air handler and components rather than a licensed AC contractor?

In our experience 80% of the people ill from mold related

symptoms have mold contamination in their air handlers and/or duct work?

In our experience there is too much focus on removing small

amounts of mold hidden in wall cavities that does not impact the indoor air

quality and will eventually die if the water source is eliminated.

And not enough focus is on contaminated AC systems that are

actually making people sick.

What are the legal and ethical concerns of a mold assessor

or remediator focusing on removing mold in a wall cavity because a wall cavity

sample showed mold inside the wall, but there are no elevated mold spores

in the living space.

Why are there no industry guidelines on these subjects?

Rosen, Ph.D.

www.Mold-Books.

com

Looking

for earth-friendly autos?

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Autos' Green Center.

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smell?

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cars at Yahoo! Autos.

May 11, 2007

writes

An elderly couple live in an 1200 sq ft corner apartment with a 2.5 ton AC. The AC and ducts are 30 years old and full of mold.The couple get sick within 10-15 minutes of entering their home. And this has been going on for years. They can't deal with moving.

I truly doubt that either a portable or a high E filter will help the couple as described. 30 years the ducts will be of 475 density and one inch thick, spongy, full of ____ , and shedding fiberglass fibers. HVAC set at 78 in SE Florida gives enough time to wet the coil and ducts. Either it goes away or they put up with the problem. Or the given situation = Elderly. Fixed income. Will put up with warmer temp. Requires de-humidification. Go to H.D. and get a roll around A/C unit, seal the ducts for the kids to contend with when the time comes. Check that they don't have Al wiring. Your side of the state has a bunch.

Some where along the line we assume we are here to help people. We aren't . Doctors help people. We help structures. Some times you have to face the facts that do to cost, age, or circumstance you end up walking away.

Valin See what's free at AOL.com.

May 11, 2007

writes

An elderly couple live in an 1200 sq ft corner apartment with a 2.5 ton AC. The AC and ducts are 30 years old and full of mold.The couple get sick within 10-15 minutes of entering their home. And this has been going on for years. They can't deal with moving.

I truly doubt that either a portable or a high E filter will help the couple as described. 30 years the ducts will be of 475 density and one inch thick, spongy, full of ____ , and shedding fiberglass fibers. HVAC set at 78 in SE Florida gives enough time to wet the coil and ducts. Either it goes away or they put up with the problem. Or the given situation = Elderly. Fixed income. Will put up with warmer temp. Requires de-humidification. Go to H.D. and get a roll around A/C unit, seal the ducts for the kids to contend with when the time comes. Check that they don't have Al wiring. Your side of the state has a bunch.

Some where along the line we assume we are here to help people. We aren't . Doctors help people. We help structures. Some times you have to face the facts that do to cost, age, or circumstance you end up walking away.

Valin See what's free at AOL.com.

May 11, 2007

,

I haven't been following this thread closely so I hope I'm not

duplicating. Is Oxine EPA registered for application in ducting? If

so, is misting or spraying a legal application? I didn't think EPA

had approved any sort of air-borne application in HVAC. Please

correct me if I'm mistaken.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

>

> ,

> What I found when providing project oversight and clearance of

> commercial ventilation systems, most HVAC cleaning contractors do not

> know how to mix Oxine properly. Therefore, they are just adding water

> to the ventilation system. On the application side, most contractors

> do not understand how to wet-mist the ducting to achieve an even

> distribution of Oxine agent on all surfaces. Application is a hit and

> miss proposition. One that often leads to failure in clearance

> testing metal and plastic flex ducting.

> Moffett

>

> ,

>

> Interesting.I don't have much experience with fire or locations with

> fumes or oils.No doubt that is important.

>

> I had not really thought about smoking and the nastiness of ducts.

> But I am sure that is something I missed now that you bring that up.

>

> If the flex ducts are nasty with any kind of film they can't be

> cleaned. But unless the person is very sensitive they can handle

> pretty dirty ductwork just so long as the air handler is clean and

> the supply plenum is pristine.

>

> The Oxine only works when the ducts are clean. No matter what you do

> to clean flex they will not be clean compared to metal lined duct. I

> don't think the issue is whether the material is metal lining or

> plastic lining but the amount of dirt.

>

> Fogging with Oxine is a minor component of the process. We do it

> because it is easy and cheap and may help a bit.

>

> Rosen, Ph.D.

>

> www.Mold-Books.com

>

> Mlold Assessments and Air Handlers

>

> What responsibility does the mold assessor have to understanding

> contamination in the air handler?

>

> What responsibility does the mold assessor have in understanding the

> EPA recommendations regarding cleaning air handlers and duct work and

> the use of chemicals/ biocides to clean/sanitizemetal, fiberglass

> plenums, and plastic lined ducting.

>

> See the EPA pub:

>

> Should You Have the Air Ducts in Your Home Cleaned?

> www.epa.gov/iaq/pubs/airduct.html

>

> According to the EPA, once fiberglass duct liner is contaminated with

> mold it cannot be cleaned and must be replaced with new.

>

> How many mold assessors are trained to know how to visually inspect

> inside fiberglass plenums and properly repair the inspection point?

>

> Why is this not part of mold assessor standard training programs?

>

> Is there a conflict of interest to have the mold assessor inspect the

> air handler and components rather than a licensed AC contractor?

>

> In our experience 80% of the people ill from mold related symptoms

> have mold contamination in their air handlers and/or duct work?

>

> In our experience there is too much focus on removing small amounts

> of mold hidden in wall cavities that does not impact the indoor air

> quality and will eventually die if the water source is eliminated.

>

> And not enough focus is on contaminated AC systems that are actually

> making people sick.

>

> What are the legal and ethical concerns of a mold assessor or

> remediator focusing on removing mold in a wall cavity because a wall

> cavity sample showed mold inside the wall, but thereare no elevated

> mold spores in the living space.

>

> Why are there no industry guidelines on these subjects?

>

> Rosen, Ph.D.

>

> www.Mold-Books. com

>

> Looking for earth-friendly autos?

> Browse Top Cars by " Green Rating " at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.

>

> Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check.

> Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta.

>

> The fish are biting.

> Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.

>

> Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and

> always stay connected to friends.

>

> Ahhh...imagining that irresistible " new car " smell?

> Check out new cars at Yahoo! Autos.

>

May 11, 2007

,

I haven't been following this thread closely so I hope I'm not

duplicating. Is Oxine EPA registered for application in ducting? If

so, is misting or spraying a legal application? I didn't think EPA

had approved any sort of air-borne application in HVAC. Please

correct me if I'm mistaken.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

>

> ,

> What I found when providing project oversight and clearance of

> commercial ventilation systems, most HVAC cleaning contractors do not

> know how to mix Oxine properly. Therefore, they are just adding water

> to the ventilation system. On the application side, most contractors

> do not understand how to wet-mist the ducting to achieve an even

> distribution of Oxine agent on all surfaces. Application is a hit and

> miss proposition. One that often leads to failure in clearance

> testing metal and plastic flex ducting.

> Moffett

>

> ,

>

> Interesting.I don't have much experience with fire or locations with

> fumes or oils.No doubt that is important.

>

> I had not really thought about smoking and the nastiness of ducts.

> But I am sure that is something I missed now that you bring that up.

>

> If the flex ducts are nasty with any kind of film they can't be

> cleaned. But unless the person is very sensitive they can handle

> pretty dirty ductwork just so long as the air handler is clean and

> the supply plenum is pristine.

>

> The Oxine only works when the ducts are clean. No matter what you do

> to clean flex they will not be clean compared to metal lined duct. I

> don't think the issue is whether the material is metal lining or

> plastic lining but the amount of dirt.

>

> Fogging with Oxine is a minor component of the process. We do it

> because it is easy and cheap and may help a bit.

>

> Rosen, Ph.D.

>

> www.Mold-Books.com

>

> Mlold Assessments and Air Handlers

>

> What responsibility does the mold assessor have to understanding

> contamination in the air handler?

>

> What responsibility does the mold assessor have in understanding the

> EPA recommendations regarding cleaning air handlers and duct work and

> the use of chemicals/ biocides to clean/sanitizemetal, fiberglass

> plenums, and plastic lined ducting.

>

> See the EPA pub:

>

> Should You Have the Air Ducts in Your Home Cleaned?

> www.epa.gov/iaq/pubs/airduct.html

>

> According to the EPA, once fiberglass duct liner is contaminated with

> mold it cannot be cleaned and must be replaced with new.

>

> How many mold assessors are trained to know how to visually inspect

> inside fiberglass plenums and properly repair the inspection point?

>

> Why is this not part of mold assessor standard training programs?

>

> Is there a conflict of interest to have the mold assessor inspect the

> air handler and components rather than a licensed AC contractor?

>

> In our experience 80% of the people ill from mold related symptoms

> have mold contamination in their air handlers and/or duct work?

>

> In our experience there is too much focus on removing small amounts

> of mold hidden in wall cavities that does not impact the indoor air

> quality and will eventually die if the water source is eliminated.

>

> And not enough focus is on contaminated AC systems that are actually

> making people sick.

>

> What are the legal and ethical concerns of a mold assessor or

> remediator focusing on removing mold in a wall cavity because a wall

> cavity sample showed mold inside the wall, but thereare no elevated

> mold spores in the living space.

>

> Why are there no industry guidelines on these subjects?

>

> Rosen, Ph.D.

>

> www.Mold-Books. com

>

> Looking for earth-friendly autos?

> Browse Top Cars by " Green Rating " at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.

>

> Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check.

> Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta.

>

> The fish are biting.

> Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.

>

> Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and

> always stay connected to friends.

>

> Ahhh...imagining that irresistible " new car " smell?

> Check out new cars at Yahoo! Autos.

>

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