Re: Thermapure? Does it work? Horse Pucky!

[Guest guest]

Geyer wrote:

All to often I hear from the ³Total R & R² advocates is that REMOVAL

is the ONLY option. My response is: Horse Pucky!

> There are always options, and there should be options. Not

everyone has the budget to total R & R, moreover, not all mold growth

warranting removal warrants total R & R. While I believe that total

R & R is nirvana, it is not always practical, therefore, options and

alternatives need to be on the table. ThermaPure provides options.

>

As Chin Yang of P & K said " If the mold is Stachy, removal is the only

option " . He had good reasons for saying so.

If the colony is anything beyond miniscule, successfully killing

Stachy without removal liberates an increased NONviable toxin load

that poses the problem that whatever problems already exist possess

the natural propensity to become far worse UNLESS some mitigating

factors interfere with the normal progression of dead-colony

dispersion.

Thermapure is a dangerous option - and therefore not a good one, if

it is SUCCESSFUL in killing a hidden " toxin former " :

" The operation was successful, but the patient died "

Since there are so many " 's " lurking around these parts,

I'll sign as " MoldWarrior " : One of the people who initiated the

CFS epidemic twenty three years ago, with the question " Why is mold

doing this to me? "

-MW

[Guest guest]

:

Chin Yang of P & K is a fine microbiologist, and his bias towards TOTAL removal is quite obvious. He is not a building specialist. His building experience won’t even fill a thimble. About four years ago I presented five project profiles at an AIHA conference on the merits of heating structures – only two used ThermaPure methods. Chin Yang’s questions at the end of my presentation were focused on trichothecenes, and he felt that if the trichothecenes could not be controlled, nothing else mattered, i.e., the heating benefits of: drying didn’t matter, killing the microorganisms didn’t mater, denaturing mold proteins didn’t matter, inactivating mold spores didn’t matter, off-gassing MVOCs didn’t matter. Bottom line in his opinion, the trichothecenes were the only thing that mattered. (How myopic!) Moreover, in our discussions, he said to me, if a building needs to be disassembled into its individual components to clean and removal all traces of Stachy, that is the only possible option. Now I ask you ......Do you agree with Mr. Yang? Do believe he is being practical? Is his position realistic? Are you advocating TOTAL removal? Because I see no one following his advice. The advice of a mycologist. Even traditional remediators don’t. And what is your advice to those that cannot afford TOTAL removal?

Geyer wrote:

All to often I hear from the “Total R & R” advocates is that REMOVAL

is the ONLY option. My response is: Horse Pucky!

> There are always options, and there should be options. Not

everyone has the budget to total R & R, moreover, not all mold growth

warranting removal warrants total R & R. While I believe that total

R & R is nirvana, it is not always practical, therefore, options and

alternatives need to be on the table. ThermaPure provides options.

>

As Chin Yang of P & K said " If the mold is Stachy, removal is the only

option " . He had good reasons for saying so.

If the colony is anything beyond miniscule, successfully killing

Stachy without removal liberates an increased NONviable toxin load

that poses the problem that whatever problems already exist possess

the natural propensity to become far worse UNLESS some mitigating

factors interfere with the normal progression of dead-colony

dispersion.

Thermapure is a dangerous option - and therefore not a good one, if

it is SUCCESSFUL in killing a hidden " toxin former " :

" The operation was successful, but the patient died "

Since there are so many " 's " lurking around these parts,

I'll sign as " MoldWarrior " : One of the people who initiated the

CFS epidemic twenty three years ago, with the question " Why is mold

doing this to me? "

-MW

[Guest guest]

,

The science is not based on affordability,

it’s based on science. It is up to the owner to determine what they will

do with the science. What you offer is a misconception of clean even to those

who can afford the best remediation practices. I know someone who is working on

a building they can’t afford but they are going to do it correctly

because I can’t afford to do it incorrectly. The liability will surely supersede

the meaningless approach is the tenants get sick or it comes back. I agree with

Yang.

Just recently someone has discovered that

the VOC’s from the mold and its spores were causing them the illness not

the actual spores. Where do we go from here?

EnviroBob

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Geyer

Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007

11:47 AM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: Re:

Thermapure? Does it work? Horse Pucky!

:

Chin Yang of P & K is a fine microbiologist, and his bias towards TOTAL

removal is quite obvious. He is not a building specialist. His

building experience won’t even fill a thimble. About four years ago

I presented five project profiles at an AIHA conference on the merits of

heating structures – only two used ThermaPure methods. Chin

Yang’s questions at the end of my presentation were focused on

trichothecenes, and he felt that if the trichothecenes could not be controlled,

nothing else mattered, i.e., the heating benefits of: drying didn’t

matter, killing the microorganisms didn’t mater, denaturing mold proteins

didn’t matter, inactivating mold spores didn’t matter, off-gassing

MVOCs didn’t matter. Bottom line in his opinion, the trichothecenes

were the only thing that mattered. (How myopic!) Moreover, in our

discussions, he said to me, if a building needs to be disassembled into its

individual components to clean and removal all traces of Stachy, that is the

only possible option. Now I ask you ......Do you agree with Mr. Yang?

Do believe he is being practical? Is his position realistic?

Are you advocating TOTAL removal? Because I see no one following

his advice. The advice of a mycologist. Even traditional

remediators don’t. And what is your advice to those that cannot

afford TOTAL removal?

On 10/1/07 4:40 PM, " erikmoldwarrior " <erikmoldwarriorearthlink (DOT) net>

wrote:

Geyer wrote:

All to often I hear from the “Total R & R” advocates is

that REMOVAL

is the ONLY option. My response is: Horse Pucky!

> There are always options, and there should be options. Not

everyone has the budget to total R & R, moreover, not all mold growth

warranting removal warrants total R & R. While I believe that total

R & R is nirvana, it is not always practical, therefore, options and

alternatives need to be on the table. ThermaPure provides options.

>

As Chin Yang of P & K said " If the mold is Stachy, removal is the only

option " . He had good reasons for saying so.

If the colony is anything beyond miniscule, successfully killing

Stachy without removal liberates an increased NONviable toxin load

that poses the problem that whatever problems already exist possess

the natural propensity to become far worse UNLESS some mitigating

factors interfere with the normal progression of dead-colony

dispersion.

Thermapure is a dangerous option - and therefore not a good one, if

it is SUCCESSFUL in killing a hidden " toxin former " :

" The operation was successful, but the patient died "

Since there are so many " 's " lurking around these parts,

I'll sign as " MoldWarrior " : One of the people who initiated the

CFS epidemic twenty three years ago, with the question " Why is mold

doing this to me? "

-MW

[Guest guest]

Not sure who added the " horse pucky " portion, I would assume Geyer.

Anyway. Bob thank you for your objective questions. Unfortunately,

I did have the pleasure of sitting down with their sales people and

I was convinced they had all the answers. Alas, they do not and I

have found myself in Southern CA more often than I care to because

we signed a contract, stopped paying and stopped selling this

process, and now find ourselves being sued. A discussion

for another time perhaps. If questions are asked I will gladly

answer them

> > All to often I hear from the ³Total R & R² advocates is that

REMOVAL

> > is the ONLY option. My response is: Horse Pucky!

> >> > There are always options, and there should be options. Not

> > everyone has the budget to total R & R, moreover, not all mold

growth

> > warranting removal warrants total R & R. While I believe that

total

> > R & R is nirvana, it is not always practical, therefore, options

and

> > alternatives need to be on the table. ThermaPure provides

options.

> >> >

> >

> > As Chin Yang of P & K said " If the mold is Stachy, removal is the

only

> > option " . He had good reasons for saying so.

> > If the colony is anything beyond miniscule, successfully killing

> > Stachy without removal liberates an increased NONviable toxin

load

> > that poses the problem that whatever problems already exist

possess

> > the natural propensity to become far worse UNLESS some mitigating

> > factors interfere with the normal progression of dead-colony

> > dispersion.

> > Thermapure is a dangerous option - and therefore not a good

one, if

> > it is SUCCESSFUL in killing a hidden " toxin former " :

> > " The operation was successful, but the patient died "

> >

> > Since there are so many " 's " lurking around these parts,

> > I'll sign as " MoldWarrior " : One of the people who initiated

the

> > CFS epidemic twenty three years ago, with the question " Why is

mold

> > doing this to me? "

> > -MW

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Not sure who added the " horse pucky " portion, I would assume Geyer.

Anyway. Bob thank you for your objective questions. Unfortunately,

I did have the pleasure of sitting down with their sales people and

I was convinced they had all the answers. Alas, they do not and I

have found myself in Southern CA more often than I care to because

we signed a contract, stopped paying and stopped selling this

process, and now find ourselves being sued. A discussion

for another time perhaps. If questions are asked I will gladly

answer them

> > All to often I hear from the ³Total R & R² advocates is that

REMOVAL

> > is the ONLY option. My response is: Horse Pucky!

> >> > There are always options, and there should be options. Not

> > everyone has the budget to total R & R, moreover, not all mold

growth

> > warranting removal warrants total R & R. While I believe that

total

> > R & R is nirvana, it is not always practical, therefore, options

and

> > alternatives need to be on the table. ThermaPure provides

options.

> >> >

> >

> > As Chin Yang of P & K said " If the mold is Stachy, removal is the

only

> > option " . He had good reasons for saying so.

> > If the colony is anything beyond miniscule, successfully killing

> > Stachy without removal liberates an increased NONviable toxin

load

> > that poses the problem that whatever problems already exist

possess

> > the natural propensity to become far worse UNLESS some mitigating

> > factors interfere with the normal progression of dead-colony

> > dispersion.

> > Thermapure is a dangerous option - and therefore not a good

one, if

> > it is SUCCESSFUL in killing a hidden " toxin former " :

> > " The operation was successful, but the patient died "

> >

> > Since there are so many " 's " lurking around these parts,

> > I'll sign as " MoldWarrior " : One of the people who initiated

the

> > CFS epidemic twenty three years ago, with the question " Why is

mold

> > doing this to me? "

> > -MW

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

,

You can be sure I didn’t add the

Horse Pucky. I hope you prevail in the end. The nasty part is even if you win

you lost because you were required to defend.

I didn’t sit down with them because they

already were asked questions they could defend and I believe because I feel they

knew they were not going to be able to substantiate the process to my

satisfaction. So they didn’t get my money. Here is what I understand:

close to the heat source hottest, farther away not as warm, further or through

materials less heat to the other side of the materials. Other factors can hinder

the heat stability to be stabilized over certain periods of time thus rendering

the process not as affective as one would wish to believe.  

On the other hand, if there were an

ability to maintain the same temperature as the source other factors need

consideration i.e. seals on doors and windows, shrinkage to vinyl flooring,

shrinkage to wood products i.e. hand rails, stair treads and risers, hardwood

flooring, wood doors and door members, even carpets may be affected with slight

color changes, wallpaper, etc. It did not seem worth the risk to me.

EnviroBob

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of

Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007

5:34 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re:

Thermapure? Does it work? Horse Pucky!

Not sure who added the " horse pucky "

portion, I would assume Geyer.

Anyway. Bob thank you for your objective questions. Unfortunately,

I did have the pleasure of sitting down with their sales people and

I was convinced they had all the answers. Alas, they do not and I

have found myself in Southern CA more often

than I care to because

we signed a contract, stopped paying and stopped selling this

process, and now find ourselves being sued. A discussion

for another time perhaps. If questions are asked I will gladly

answer them

> > All to often I hear from the ³Total R & R² advocates is that

REMOVAL

> > is the ONLY option. My response is: Horse Pucky!

> >> > There are always options, and there should be options. Not

> > everyone has the budget to total R & R, moreover, not all mold

growth

> > warranting removal warrants total R & R. While I believe that

total

> > R & R is nirvana, it is not always practical, therefore, options

and

> > alternatives need to be on the table. ThermaPure provides

options.

> >> >

> >

> > As Chin Yang of P & K said " If the mold is Stachy, removal is

the

only

> > option " . He had good reasons for saying so.

> > If the colony is anything beyond miniscule, successfully killing

> > Stachy without removal liberates an increased NONviable toxin

load

> > that poses the problem that whatever problems already exist

possess

> > the natural propensity to become far worse UNLESS some mitigating

> > factors interfere with the normal progression of dead-colony

> > dispersion.

> > Thermapure is a dangerous option - and therefore not a good

one, if

> > it is SUCCESSFUL in killing a hidden " toxin former " :

> > " The operation was successful, but the patient died "

> >

> > Since there are so many " 's " lurking around these

parts,

> > I'll sign as " MoldWarrior " : One of the people who

initiated

the

> > CFS epidemic twenty three years ago, with the question " Why is

mold

> > doing this to me? "

> > -MW

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

,

You can be sure I didn’t add the

Horse Pucky. I hope you prevail in the end. The nasty part is even if you win

you lost because you were required to defend.

I didn’t sit down with them because they

already were asked questions they could defend and I believe because I feel they

knew they were not going to be able to substantiate the process to my

satisfaction. So they didn’t get my money. Here is what I understand:

close to the heat source hottest, farther away not as warm, further or through

materials less heat to the other side of the materials. Other factors can hinder

the heat stability to be stabilized over certain periods of time thus rendering

the process not as affective as one would wish to believe.  

On the other hand, if there were an

ability to maintain the same temperature as the source other factors need

consideration i.e. seals on doors and windows, shrinkage to vinyl flooring,

shrinkage to wood products i.e. hand rails, stair treads and risers, hardwood

flooring, wood doors and door members, even carpets may be affected with slight

color changes, wallpaper, etc. It did not seem worth the risk to me.

EnviroBob

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of

Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007

5:34 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re:

Thermapure? Does it work? Horse Pucky!

Not sure who added the " horse pucky "

portion, I would assume Geyer.

Anyway. Bob thank you for your objective questions. Unfortunately,

I did have the pleasure of sitting down with their sales people and

I was convinced they had all the answers. Alas, they do not and I

have found myself in Southern CA more often

than I care to because

we signed a contract, stopped paying and stopped selling this

process, and now find ourselves being sued. A discussion

for another time perhaps. If questions are asked I will gladly

answer them

> > All to often I hear from the ³Total R & R² advocates is that

REMOVAL

> > is the ONLY option. My response is: Horse Pucky!

> >> > There are always options, and there should be options. Not

> > everyone has the budget to total R & R, moreover, not all mold

growth

> > warranting removal warrants total R & R. While I believe that

total

> > R & R is nirvana, it is not always practical, therefore, options

and

> > alternatives need to be on the table. ThermaPure provides

options.

> >> >

> >

> > As Chin Yang of P & K said " If the mold is Stachy, removal is

the

only

> > option " . He had good reasons for saying so.

> > If the colony is anything beyond miniscule, successfully killing

> > Stachy without removal liberates an increased NONviable toxin

load

> > that poses the problem that whatever problems already exist

possess

> > the natural propensity to become far worse UNLESS some mitigating

> > factors interfere with the normal progression of dead-colony

> > dispersion.

> > Thermapure is a dangerous option - and therefore not a good

one, if

> > it is SUCCESSFUL in killing a hidden " toxin former " :

> > " The operation was successful, but the patient died "

> >

> > Since there are so many " 's " lurking around these

parts,

> > I'll sign as " MoldWarrior " : One of the people who

initiated

the

> > CFS epidemic twenty three years ago, with the question " Why is

mold

> > doing this to me? "

> > -MW

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

EnviroBob:

Look at what you posted, i.e., “The science is not based on affordability, it’s based on science.”

This represents the fallacy of circular reasoning: Science is based on science.

However, yes, I agree with your concept, i.e., science tends to ignore affordability. Unfortunately, most of the rest of the world operates on a budget.

Regarding MVOCs.......MVOCs are produced by living mold. Dead mold does not produce MVOCs. If the occupants are harmed by MVOCs (I believe it is possible), then kill the mold or clean-up the mold. Moreover, the environmental conditions conducive to mold growth need to be addressed, i.e., it has got to be moist somewhere. Why not consider heat? If solid mold products are not the causative agent of harm but vapors are, why not give heat an opportunity to dry-out the moisture, kill the mold, and off-gas the MVOCs. This said, not all projects are candidates for heat, so there may be other factors to consider. Just a thought.

,

The science is not based on affordability, it’s based on science. It is up to the owner to determine what they will do with the science. What you offer is a misconception of clean even to those who can afford the best remediation practices. I know someone who is working on a building they can’t afford but they are going to do it correctly because I can’t afford to do it incorrectly. The liability will surely supersede the meaningless approach is the tenants get sick or it comes back. I agree with Yang.

Just recently someone has discovered that the VOC’s from the mold and its spores were causing them the illness not the actual spores. Where do we go from here?

EnviroBob