[SPAM] Re: crawlspace [was Question on Fungal fragments]

[Guest guest]

Live Simply (it would be nice to put a real name to youself):

You stated:

1.         “There are an amazing amount of pieces of information

including six scientific papers unavailable for free elsewhere analyzing the

issues in crawl spaces..and indoor spaces with fungal particles traveling

through walls..(article six is especially useful.) “

Q1.  What is the “health” significance?  (there is an

answer to this) 

Q2.  Would there be an issue if a crawlspace was correctly designed and

installed?

Q3.  Where is the other amazing information?

2.         The six references are nice refs but:

a lot of spores are >

4um ;  there is a better article on particle movement through cracks in Aerosol

Sci.

(Ref to:  Airiksinen, FUNGAL SPORE TRANSPORT THROUGH A BUILDING

STRUCTURE)

The other articles clearly show that:  There is not an issue if a

crawlspace was correctly designed and installed.

Also, note the climate.

3.         You stated: “here:

Moisture and Fungal Spore Transport in Outdoor Air-Ventilated Crawl

Spaces in a Cold Climate

Miimu Airaksinen”

a.         It is good, but apparently haven’t read the full

version (this is a summary).

Q4.      Again, Would there be an issue if a crawlspace was correctly

designed and installed?

Q5.      Again, What is the “health” significance?

FYI:  I not trying to be a jerk, just trying to get out the facts.

 

Tony

.......................................................................

" Tony " Havics,

CHMM, CIH, PE

pH2, LLC

5250 E US

36, Suite 830

Avon, IN

46123

off

fax

cell

90% of Risk Management is knowing where to

place the decimal point...any consultant can give you the other 10%(SM)

This message is from pH2. This message and

any attachments may contain legally privileged or confidential information, and

are intended only for the individual or entity identified above as the

addressee. If you are not the addressee, or if this message has been addressed

to you in error, you are not authorized to read, copy, or distribute this

message and any attachments, and we ask that you please delete this message and

attachments (including all copies) and notify the sender by return e-mail or by

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person other than the intended recipient(s) is not intended in any way to waive

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sender, which are not to be attributed to pH2 and may not be copied or

distributed without this statement.

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of LiveSimply

Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007

11:35 AM

To: iequality

Subject: [sPAM] Re:

crawlspace [was Question on Fungal fragments]

There are an amazing amount of pieces of information

including six scientific papers unavailable for free elsewhere analyzing the

issues in crawl spaces..and indoor spaces with fungal particles traveling

through walls..(article six is especially useful.)

here:

Moisture and Fungal Spore Transport in Outdoor Air-Ventilated Crawl Spaces in a

Cold Climate

Miimu Airaksinen

URL: (this is a keeper)

http://lib.tkk.fi/Diss/2003/isbn9512267756/

[Guest guest]

Crawl space Commenters,

I was just in 2 large crawl spaces with mech. vent. which were not right for various reasons (I have not seen the design). Each house was over $1.9 mil, less than 2 years old, and each crawl was over 4,000 sq ft. Each crawl had about 2000 to 4000 sq ft of mold growth on the wood flooring system, mostly A/P and Clado, large openings to the living area, and one HVAC system was in the crawl.

In my experience in Idaho and Oregon, the crawls are seldom done correctly, but the Code inspectors are letting them pass inspection.

I don't mind getting the work, but this is such a waste of money to now have to repair them.

The current system of design, build, and gov. inspect does not seem to be working well for the consumer.

Bradley HarrSr. Environmental Scientist

-----Original Message-----From: iequality [mailto:iequality ]On Behalf Of Tony HavicsSent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 2:10 PMTo: iequality Subject: RE: [sPAM] Re: crawlspace [was Question on Fungal fragments]

Live Simply (it would be nice to put a real name to youself):

You stated:

1. “There are an amazing amount of pieces of information including six scientific papers unavailable for free elsewhere analyzing the issues in crawl spaces..and indoor spaces with fungal particles traveling through walls..(article six is especially useful.) “

Q1. What is the “health” significance? (there is an answer to this)

Q2. Would there be an issue if a crawlspace was correctly designed and installed?

Q3. Where is the other amazing information?

2. The six references are nice refs but:

a lot of spores are > 4um ; there is a better article on particle movement through cracks in Aerosol Sci.

(Ref to: Airiksinen, FUNGAL SPORE TRANSPORT THROUGH A BUILDING STRUCTURE)

The other articles clearly show that: There is not an issue if a crawlspace was correctly designed and installed.

Also, note the climate.

3. You stated: “here:

Moisture and Fungal Spore Transport in Outdoor Air-Ventilated Crawl Spaces in a Cold ClimateMiimu Airaksinen”

a. It is good, but apparently haven’t read the full version (this is a summary).

Q4. Again, Would there be an issue if a crawlspace was correctly designed and installed?

Q5. Again, What is the “health” significance?

FYI: I not trying to be a jerk, just trying to get out the facts.

Tony

.......................................................................

"Tony" Havics, CHMM, CIH, PE

pH2, LLC

5250 E US 36, Suite 830

Avon, IN 46123

off

fax

cell

90% of Risk Management is knowing where to place the decimal point...any consultant can give you the other 10%(SM)

This message is from pH2. This message and any attachments may contain legally privileged or confidential information, and are intended only for the individual or entity identified above as the addressee. If you are not the addressee, or if this message has been addressed to you in error, you are not authorized to read, copy, or distribute this message and any attachments, and we ask that you please delete this message and attachments (including all copies) and notify the sender by return e-mail or by phone at . Delivery of this message and any attachments to any person other than the intended recipient(s) is not intended in any way to waive confidentiality or a privilege. All personal messages express views only of the sender, which are not to be attributed to pH2 and may not be copied or distributed without this statement.

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of LiveSimplySent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 11:35 AMTo: iequality Subject: [sPAM] Re: crawlspace [was Question on Fungal fragments]

There are an amazing amount of pieces of information including six scientific papers unavailable for free elsewhere analyzing the issues in crawl spaces..and indoor spaces with fungal particles traveling through walls..(article six is especially useful.) here:Moisture and Fungal Spore Transport in Outdoor Air-Ventilated Crawl Spaces in a Cold ClimateMiimu AiraksinenURL: (this is a keeper)http://lib.tkk.fi/Diss/2003/isbn9512267756/

[Guest guest]

You guys are all making money on these mishaps, but think about the thousands (millions?) of people who end up in these situations and can't afford to sue anybody, or can't get a lawyer, or who lose through some technicality, or who win, but even without discounting the 40% lawyers take, doesn't make back enough to cover them and their whole family getting ill and the cost to fix (gut?) their home and live somewhere else during..

And what about all the renters who can't get any form of redress because their financial losses arent considered to be great enough, even if their lives are heaviliy impacted, marriages wrecked, home broken because of sickness, etc. ?

Business as usual?

[Guest guest]

LiveSimply wrote:

>

> You guys are all making money on these mishaps, but think about the

> thousands (millions?) of people who end up in these situations and

can't afford to sue anybody, or can't get a lawyer, or who lose through

some technicality, or who win, but even without discounting the 40%

lawyers take, doesn't make back enough to cover them and their whole

family getting ill and the cost to fix (gut?) their home and live

somewhere else during..

>

> And what about all the renters who can't get any form of redress

because their financial losses arent considered to be great enough,

even if their lives are heaviliy impacted, marriages wrecked, home

broken because of sickness, etc. ?

>

> Business as usual?

>

Considering the amazingly increasing number of remediologists and

contractors who are now so reactive that they are in the same plight as

the people they were trying to help - I can't help but think that it's

going to be ANYTHING BUT business as usual!

This is really going to put humanity to the test.

-

[Guest guest]

Hello Tony,

What about lack of inspection and maintence? They all need RH meters to warn of moisture problems.

What about no design criteria to reduce damage from hot water leaks? Big repair costs. Need to be more mold resistant

Crawl spaces are set up to fail, even if designed to keep out the exterior site water. Mostly because they are not easily inspected. I think we need some clear floor tiles so we can look into the crawl space! Maybe a remote web cam! They are low cost these days.

Question -- does the building code allow the large openings below the bath tub and shower drains? The last new large house I was in had at least 5 - 6 sq ft of open subfloor into the 4 living area bathrooms.

Bradley HarrSr. Environmental Scientist

Re: crawlspace [was Question on Fungal fragments]

Carl:

I can’t believe that you said what you said!

When I hear someone state that crawl spaces should be outlawed, I scoff, I bristle, and I dismiss the person as an idiot. You are not an idiot, but I am appalled by your comment. This is not a statement made by a person who understands construction, building science and/or building design.

Statements re outlawing crawlspaces are akin to those who want to outlaw beans in Mexican restaurants in order to eliminate flatulence. It is impractical, it is unnecessary, and it is not the solution to the problem. BTW.....to eliminate flatulence, take BeanO; it is made from Aspergillus niger!

Keeping crawl spaces dry is easily accomplished at the time of construction, assuming someone does not build on a spring, tap into a seep, or dig into standing water; and if so, a short basement is not going to solve the moisture problem. Crawlspaces are often the only practical cost-effective method of establishing a foundation in some locations, and any other type of foundation assembly will significantly increase the cost of construction. Crawlspaces also allow one to locate mechanical systems that otherwise cannot be placed in the attic. The least expensive foundation is slab-on-grade, followed by crawlspace, followed by basements. Ever try to build a basement on a slope? If a slab could be installed it probably would be, because it is the least expensive foundation assembly. Crawlspace foundations are installed where slabs are often impractical to install. Eliminate crawlspaces and what choices are left?

Yes.....I agree that there are many problems with crawlspaces, and excessive crawlspace moisture is a very common complaint in some locations; including new construction. Based on the last statistic I read, excessive crawlspace moisture accounted for nearly 37% of the complaints in new construction. That’s BIG! And something should be done about it – Agreed. Some of these problems can be mitigated with proper design and construction. Why haven’t the building codes addressed it? I don’t know, but it is one of my suggestions for the IBC-IRC group that is forming within BETEC. IMHO....We should outlaw HVAC units being placed in attics before we outlaw crawlspaces! Also, I have seen many situations where the root-cause of excessive moisture and bugs in the crawlspace was not the fault of the structure, but the occupants and their irrigation practices, or a lack of maintenance, or from shear stupidity (plumbing the roof drain to a stem wall vent).

To outlaw crawlspaces is to significantly increase the cost of construction in many locations of the U.S.; which further increases the cost of housing and makes “affordable” home-ownership less achievable. We have many families in the U.S. that would like to be homeowners. Do you want to increase that group of folks by making home construction much more costly?

There are many other methods and materials to accomplish the same thing that most of you “outlaws” want to accomplish; without outlawing crawlspaces. This said, there are also those occupants that are fools and/or don’t pay attention, and the cause of the problems are their own doings – not the crawlspace.

Don’t blame the building system! It all starts with a design that is appropriate for the location. Cookie-cutter designs just don’t cut it in all locations. It should start with a local code, codes should be performance based, reflect the most practical design for the area, and the other elements should follow suit. Get involved with code changes! Don’t make foolish impractical suggestions to eliminate a building element that provides a lot of value. There are other less costly means to accomplish the same effect.

For what it is worth......

[Guest guest]

1. I

was at a building code seminar Monday (taught by one of the commissioners and

one of the Indiana Building Code board members).

The plan is to ban vents in crawlspaces in

2008.

2. I

think they (crawlspaces) have their place.

We need some Education as put forth by

Jefferson and some head butting as well.

3. We

also need some cost-benefit analysis using a 30-yr capital equivalent basis for

comparison.

But this would require having insurance

claim data.

Would be a good PhD Thesis.

Tony

.......................................................................

" Tony " Havics,

CHMM, CIH, PE

pH2, LLC

5250 E US

36, Suite 830

Avon, IN

46123

off

fax

cell

90% of Risk Management is knowing where to

place the decimal point...any consultant can give you the other 10%(SM)

This message is from pH2. This message and

any attachments may contain legally privileged or confidential information, and

are intended only for the individual or entity identified above as the

addressee. If you are not the addressee, or if this message has been addressed

to you in error, you are not authorized to read, copy, or distribute this

message and any attachments, and we ask that you please delete this message and

attachments (including all copies) and notify the sender by return e-mail or by

phone at . Delivery of this message and any attachments to any

person other than the intended recipient(s) is not intended in any way to waive

confidentiality or a privilege. All personal messages express views only of the

sender, which are not to be attributed to pH2 and may not be copied or

distributed without this statement.

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Brad Harr

Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007

8:26 PM

To: iequality

Subject: RE: [sPAM]

Re: crawlspace [was Question on Fungal fragments]

Hello Tony,

What about lack of inspection and

maintence? They all need RH meters to warn of moisture problems.

What about no design criteria to reduce

damage from hot water leaks? Big repair costs. Need to be more mold

resistant

Crawl spaces are set up to fail, even if

designed to keep out the exterior site water. Mostly because they are not

easily inspected. I think we need some clear floor tiles so we can look

into the crawl space! Maybe a remote web cam! They are low cost

these days.

Question -- does the building code allow

the large openings below the bath tub and shower drains? The last new

large house I was in had at least 5 - 6 sq ft of open subfloor into

the 4 living area bathrooms.

Bradley Harr

Sr. Environmental Scientist

Re: crawlspace [was Question on Fungal fragments]

Carl:

I can’t

believe that you said what you said!

When I hear

someone state that crawl spaces should be outlawed, I scoff, I

bristle, and I dismiss the person as an idiot. You are not an idiot, but

I

am appalled by your comment. This is not a statement made by a person who

understands construction, building science and/or building design.

Statements re

outlawing crawlspaces are akin to those who want to outlaw

beans in Mexican restaurants in order to eliminate flatulence. It is

impractical, it is unnecessary, and it is not the solution to the problem.

BTW.....to eliminate flatulence, take BeanO; it is made from Aspergillus

niger!

Keeping

crawl spaces dry is easily accomplished at the time of construction,

assuming someone does not build on a spring, tap into a seep, or dig into

standing water; and if so, a short basement is not going to solve the

moisture problem. Crawlspaces are often the only practical cost-effective

method of establishing a foundation in some locations, and any other type of

foundation assembly will significantly increase the cost of construction.

Crawlspaces also allow one to locate mechanical systems that otherwise

cannot be placed in the attic. The least expensive foundation is

slab-on-grade, followed by crawlspace, followed by basements. Ever try to

build a basement on a slope? If a slab could be installed it probably

would

be, because it is the least expensive foundation assembly. Crawlspace

foundations are installed where slabs are often impractical to install.

Eliminate crawlspaces and what choices are left?

Yes.....I

agree that there are many problems with crawlspaces, and excessive

crawlspace moisture is a very common complaint in some locations; including

new construction. Based on the last statistic I read, excessive crawlspace

moisture accounted for nearly 37% of the complaints in new construction.

That’s BIG! And something should be done about it –

Agreed. Some of these

problems can be mitigated with proper design and construction. Why

haven’t

the building codes addressed it? I don’t know, but it is one of my

suggestions for the IBC-IRC group that is forming within BETEC.

IMHO....We

should outlaw HVAC units being placed in attics before we outlaw

crawlspaces! Also, I have seen many situations where the root-cause of

excessive moisture and bugs in the crawlspace was not the fault of the

structure, but the occupants and their irrigation practices, or a lack of

maintenance, or from shear stupidity (plumbing the roof drain to a stem wall

vent).

To outlaw

crawlspaces is to significantly increase the cost of construction

in many locations of the U.S.; which further increases

the cost of housing

and makes “affordable” home-ownership less achievable. We

have many

families in the U.S.

that would like to be homeowners. Do you want to

increase that group of folks by making home construction much more costly?

There are

many other methods and materials to accomplish the same thing that

most of you “outlaws” want to accomplish; without outlawing

crawlspaces.

This said, there are also those occupants that are fools and/or don’t pay

attention, and the cause of the problems are their own doings – not the

crawlspace.

Don’t

blame the building system! It all starts with a design that is

appropriate for the location. Cookie-cutter designs just don’t cut

it in

all locations. It should start with a local code, codes should be

performance based, reflect the most practical design for the area, and the

other elements should follow suit. Get involved with code changes!

Don’t

make foolish impractical suggestions to eliminate a building element that

provides a lot of value. There are other less costly means to accomplish

the same effect.

For what

it is worth......

[Guest guest]

Tony:

I be curious.......Why ban vents in crawlspaces? I don’t agree. I believe that there needs to be ventilation – how much, and where from, are relevant issues. How much venting changes significantly with climate zone, and building/foundation assembly also affects venting needs. This said, there are many ways to vent a crawlspace. Large screened openings in stem walls, high/low vents, passive and active vents, circulatory vents, conditioned air supply, positive vs. negative pressurization, etc. Is Indiana considering no vents, i.e., sealing the crawlspace? I foresee a big mistake! What is your spin on it?

PS I agree, this would make an outstanding PhD thesis!

1. I was at a building code seminar Monday (taught by one of the commissioners and one of the Indiana Building Code board members).

The plan is to ban vents in crawlspaces in 2008.

2. I think they (crawlspaces) have their place.

We need some Education as put forth by Jefferson and some head butting as well.

3. We also need some cost-benefit analysis using a 30-yr capital equivalent basis for comparison.

But this would require having insurance claim data.

Would be a good PhD Thesis.

Tony

.......................................................................

" Tony " Havics, CHMM, CIH, PE

pH2, LLC

5250 E US 36, Suite 830

Avon, IN 46123

off

fax

cell

90% of Risk Management is knowing where to place the decimal point...any consultant can give you the other 10%(SM)

This message is from pH2. This message and any attachments may contain legally privileged or confidential information, and are intended only for the individual or entity identified above as the addressee. If you are not the addressee, or if this message has been addressed to you in error, you are not authorized to read, copy, or distribute this message and any attachments, and we ask that you please delete this message and attachments (including all copies) and notify the sender by return e-mail or by phone at . Delivery of this message and any attachments to any person other than the intended recipient(s) is not intended in any way to waive confidentiality or a privilege. All personal messages express views only of the sender, which are not to be attributed to pH2 and may not be copied or distributed without this statement.

[Guest guest]

They are confusing poor design failure with

failure regardless of design.

I do see it as a mistake (here).

I have sent the Commissioner a few things

and will be talking with the board again.

Tony

.......................................................................

" Tony " Havics,

CHMM, CIH, PE

pH2, LLC

5250 E US

36, Suite 830

Avon, IN

46123

off

fax

cell

90% of Risk Management is knowing where to

place the decimal point...any consultant can give you the other 10%(SM)

This message is from pH2. This message and

any attachments may contain legally privileged or confidential information, and

are intended only for the individual or entity identified above as the

addressee. If you are not the addressee, or if this message has been addressed

to you in error, you are not authorized to read, copy, or distribute this

message and any attachments, and we ask that you please delete this message and

attachments (including all copies) and notify the sender by return e-mail or by

phone at . Delivery of this message and any attachments to any

person other than the intended recipient(s) is not intended in any way to waive

confidentiality or a privilege. All personal messages express views only of the

sender, which are not to be attributed to pH2 and may not be copied or

distributed without this statement.

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of

Geyer

Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007

12:15 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: [sPAM]

Re: crawlspace [was Question on Fungal fragments]

Tony:

I be curious.......Why ban vents in crawlspaces? I don’t

agree. I believe that there needs to be ventilation – how much, and

where from, are relevant issues. How much venting changes significantly

with climate zone, and building/foundation assembly also affects venting needs.

This said, there are many ways to vent a crawlspace. Large screened

openings in stem walls, high/low vents, passive and active vents, circulatory

vents, conditioned air supply, positive vs. negative pressurization, etc.

Is Indiana

considering no vents, i.e., sealing the crawlspace? I foresee a big

mistake! What is your spin on it?

PS I agree, this would make an outstanding PhD thesis!

On 8/22/07 6:05 PM, " Tony Havics " <aahavicsph2llc>

wrote:

1.

I was at a building code

seminar Monday (taught by one of the commissioners and one of the Indiana

Building Code board members).

The plan is to ban vents in crawlspaces in 2008.

2. I think they (crawlspaces)

have their place.

We need some Education as put forth by Jefferson and some head butting

as well.

3. We also need some

cost-benefit analysis using a 30-yr capital equivalent basis for comparison.

But this would require having insurance claim data.

Would be a good PhD Thesis.

Tony

.......................................................................

" Tony " Havics, CHMM, CIH, PE

pH2, LLC

5250 E US 36, Suite 830

Avon, IN

46123

off

fax

cell

90% of Risk Management is knowing where to place

the decimal point...any consultant can give you the other 10%(SM)

This message is from pH2. This message and any

attachments may contain legally privileged or confidential information, and are

intended only for the individual or entity identified above as the addressee.

If you are not the addressee, or if this message has been addressed to you in

error, you are not authorized to read, copy, or distribute this message and any

attachments, and we ask that you please delete this message and attachments

(including all copies) and notify the sender by return e-mail or by phone at

. Delivery of this message and any attachments to any person other

than the intended recipient(s) is not intended in any way to waive

confidentiality or a privilege. All personal messages express views only of the

sender, which are not to be attributed to pH2 and may not be copied or

distributed without this statement.

[Guest guest]

,

I have to ask, instead of asking “why

ban vents in crawlspaces”….what about WHY PUT vents in crawlspaces.

 I remember Joe Lstibert (Ian, I fall short on your top ten list) explaining in

detail the science behind unvented crawlspaces and when you look at the science

behind it, it makes sense.

For every degree temperature difference between

outside air and crawlspace air once mixed under the house adds 2.2% RH

Crawlspace Science:  “If we have a

day that is 72 degrees outside, just room temperature, and it is a humid day

such as 80%, then when we bring this air into our crawl space to make things

better, it will cause condensation.  80% RH air cooled 10 degrees increases its

RH by 22%, which is over 100%, which means we have condensation in our crawl

space.  Is this an extremely hot day?  No, it’s a normal room-temperature

day outside, and we still have a wet crawl space.  Let’s say it’s

not so humid.  Let’s say it’s only 60% RH outside.  We cool our 72

degree 60% RH air when we bring it into the crawlspace to 62 degrees and

increase the RH by 22% to 82%......Mold and fungus and rot happen at over 70%

RH, and some can thrive at less than that.  82% RH in our crawl space is way

more than we want and very unhealthy.”

So, I would have to ask people who argue

the point of vents, WHY PUT VENTS IN CRAWLSPACES?

(Ian, I tried to pay attention in your

class several years ago)

Josh

NOTICE: This email is intended solely for the use of the individual to whom

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From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Geyer

Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007

12:15 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: [sPAM]

Re: crawlspace [was Question on Fungal fragments]

Tony:

I be curious.......Why ban vents in crawlspaces? I don’t

agree. I believe that there needs to be ventilation – how much, and

where from, are relevant issues. How much venting changes significantly

with climate zone, and building/foundation assembly also affects venting needs.

This said, there are many ways to vent a crawlspace. Large screened

openings in stem walls, high/low vents, passive and active vents, circulatory

vents, conditioned air supply, positive vs. negative pressurization, etc.

Is Indiana

considering no vents, i.e., sealing the crawlspace? I foresee a big

mistake! What is your spin on it?

PS I agree, this would make an outstanding PhD thesis!

On 8/22/07 6:05 PM, " Tony Havics " <aahavicsph2llc>

wrote:

1.

I was at a building code

seminar Monday (taught by one of the commissioners and one of the Indiana

Building Code board members).

The plan is to ban vents in crawlspaces in 2008.

2. I think they (crawlspaces)

have their place.

We need some Education as put forth by Jefferson and some head butting

as well.

3. We also need some

cost-benefit analysis using a 30-yr capital equivalent basis for comparison.

But this would require having insurance claim data.

Would be a good PhD Thesis.

Tony

.......................................................................

" Tony " Havics, CHMM, CIH, PE

pH2, LLC

5250 E US 36, Suite 830

Avon, IN

46123

off

fax

cell

90% of Risk Management is knowing where to place

the decimal point...any consultant can give you the other 10%(SM)

This message is from pH2. This message and any

attachments may contain legally privileged or confidential information, and are

intended only for the individual or entity identified above as the addressee.

If you are not the addressee, or if this message has been addressed to you in

error, you are not authorized to read, copy, or distribute this message and any

attachments, and we ask that you please delete this message and attachments

(including all copies) and notify the sender by return e-mail or by phone at

. Delivery of this message and any attachments to any person other

than the intended recipient(s) is not intended in any way to waive

confidentiality or a privilege. All personal messages express views only of the

sender, which are not to be attributed to pH2 and may not be copied or

distributed without this statement.

[Guest guest]

,

I have to ask, instead of asking “why

ban vents in crawlspaces”….what about WHY PUT vents in crawlspaces.

 I remember Joe Lstibert (Ian, I fall short on your top ten list) explaining in

detail the science behind unvented crawlspaces and when you look at the science

behind it, it makes sense.

For every degree temperature difference between

outside air and crawlspace air once mixed under the house adds 2.2% RH

Crawlspace Science:  “If we have a

day that is 72 degrees outside, just room temperature, and it is a humid day

such as 80%, then when we bring this air into our crawl space to make things

better, it will cause condensation.  80% RH air cooled 10 degrees increases its

RH by 22%, which is over 100%, which means we have condensation in our crawl

space.  Is this an extremely hot day?  No, it’s a normal room-temperature

day outside, and we still have a wet crawl space.  Let’s say it’s

not so humid.  Let’s say it’s only 60% RH outside.  We cool our 72

degree 60% RH air when we bring it into the crawlspace to 62 degrees and

increase the RH by 22% to 82%......Mold and fungus and rot happen at over 70%

RH, and some can thrive at less than that.  82% RH in our crawl space is way

more than we want and very unhealthy.”

So, I would have to ask people who argue

the point of vents, WHY PUT VENTS IN CRAWLSPACES?

(Ian, I tried to pay attention in your

class several years ago)

Josh

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From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Geyer

Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007

12:15 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: [sPAM]

Re: crawlspace [was Question on Fungal fragments]

Tony:

I be curious.......Why ban vents in crawlspaces? I don’t

agree. I believe that there needs to be ventilation – how much, and

where from, are relevant issues. How much venting changes significantly

with climate zone, and building/foundation assembly also affects venting needs.

This said, there are many ways to vent a crawlspace. Large screened

openings in stem walls, high/low vents, passive and active vents, circulatory

vents, conditioned air supply, positive vs. negative pressurization, etc.

Is Indiana

considering no vents, i.e., sealing the crawlspace? I foresee a big

mistake! What is your spin on it?

PS I agree, this would make an outstanding PhD thesis!

On 8/22/07 6:05 PM, " Tony Havics " <aahavicsph2llc>

wrote:

1.

I was at a building code

seminar Monday (taught by one of the commissioners and one of the Indiana

Building Code board members).

The plan is to ban vents in crawlspaces in 2008.

2. I think they (crawlspaces)

have their place.

We need some Education as put forth by Jefferson and some head butting

as well.

3. We also need some

cost-benefit analysis using a 30-yr capital equivalent basis for comparison.

But this would require having insurance claim data.

Would be a good PhD Thesis.

Tony

.......................................................................

" Tony " Havics, CHMM, CIH, PE

pH2, LLC

5250 E US 36, Suite 830

Avon, IN

46123

off

fax

cell

90% of Risk Management is knowing where to place

the decimal point...any consultant can give you the other 10%(SM)

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