Re: Re: *Are Ozone Generators harmful?

December 17, 2007

Alonzo, Good point but really does anyone have more money than the federal government? They clearly won because they could define the science in question. After the trial when the judge admitted there is another way to present evidence the new company quickly developed the ability to reassert the previous claims. The company wasn't large by any means just determined to prove their science. If your next question is why weren't the defendants able to convince the jury of the validity of the science let's just say the jury wasn't able to handle the case based on pure chemistry and physics. The jury had little understanding of chemistry. They unfortunately relied on the personalities of the litigators and witnesses. Prior to the court case the old Alpine company had next to no research department. They were little more than a company being led by an elderly Minnesota basement inventor who believed ozone could be a safe and purifying means to eliminate both germs and odors but when combined with ionizers could reduce or eliminate airborne dust which would make rooms fairly germ free. How do you explain such to a jury when the agents of the federal government were saying there is no proof of such? Well today there is proof. Irrefutable proof. It so happens the feds have been experimenting at the old Oak Ridge labs with reducing airborne risks and their work became very important following the 9/11 incidents. One of the government scientists developed a wearable device that would greatly reduce dust in one's breathing zone. He had patents and much research was behind the device. He was also the nation's most noted scientist in handling and describing aerosols. He was collaborating with the engineering department at the University of Cincinnati which had been producing peer reviewed studies for some time evaluating methods to control aerosols. The studies showed fine dust down at micron dimensions will act as an aerosol. Tests were performed and proved the efficiency of air filters could be greatly increased when the air is ionized. Thus if airborne dust or aerosols can be eliminated, germs which are readily so transported, will be easier to reduce or eliminate. The new EcoQuest company then formed a relationship with the inventor and became a distributor of that wearable product. The number of units that had been sold in the prior five years was exceeded within a few months. The several peer reviewed studies relating to the effects of ionization on aerosols then became a basis for much of Ecoquest's work with ionization. One result was the discovery that the common surgical face mask would be many times more efficient if the breathing air is ionized. Let's extend that to believe that if household air was ionized a MERV 6 air filter would act like a MERV 8 or 10 filter. If you are interested the University of Cincinnati professor heading the air ionization studies is Dr. Sergey Grinshpun. Titles of two of his peer reviewed reports are: "Evaluation of Ionic Air Purifiers for reducing aerosol exposure in confined indoor spaces"; "Removal of Fine and Ultrafine particles from indoor air environments by unipolar ion emission" He has many others which a Google search should readily identify. Thank you for your kind words. Ken Gibala Re: *Are Ozone Generators harmful?Thank you to everyone that replied to my question. I at least now have a little more knowledge of ozone generators. Ken, I like your response, but one could argue the other side of the fence that if a large company has enough money and legal power, they can eventually achieve their disired outcome. > >> > I recently had someone tell me that they are finding the Ozone > > Generators used to kill mold are actually more harmful than the mold > > itself. Has anyone else heard of this?> >> Visit Your Group <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/iequality;_ylc=X3oDMTJmZmZpZG52BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMzg3NDc1BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA2MTE0NgRzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2Z2hwBHN0aW1lAzExOTc3Mjc5NzM->> Healthy Eating> Find Yahoo! Groups<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12ma0doj9/M=493064.10928738.11515654.9706571/D=grphealth/S=1705061146:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1197735173/A=4718983/R=0/SIG=11kunoe70/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/healthyeating/>> > that are focused> > on healthy eating.> > Yahoo! Health> Fit for Life<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12maflb08/M=493064.11711024.12182482.9706571/D=grphealth/S=1705061146:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1197735173/A=5008809/R=0/SIG=10q26t77l/*http://health.yahoo.com/>> > Getting fit is now> > easier than ever.> > Search Ads> Get new customers.<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12mt77o3u/M=493064.10729656.11333347.8674578/D=grphealth/S=1705061146:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1197735173/A=3848641/R=0/SIG=1312g85fq/*http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/srchv2.php?o=US2003 & cmp=Yahoo & ctv=Groups2 & s=Y & s2= & s3= & b=50>> > List your web site> > in Yahoo! Search.> > .>

December 17, 2007

Ken, Did you intend to discredit Eugene Cole and Shaughnessy? Or was the implications of the following statement unintentional: " The jury had little understanding of chemistry. They unfortunately relied on the personalities of the litigators and witnesses. " 2nd Request: I still waiting to be educated and corrected so please send me the studies and/or the citations for your claims about ozone. BTW, combining ions with filtration media has been known and accepted for quite some time. AprilAir is but one example. This effect doesn't require the ozone generation that still seems to be the key function and marketing claim of EcoQuest. Carl Grimes Healthy Habitats LLC -- > Alonzo, > > > > Good point but really does anyone have more money than the federal government? > > > > They clearly won because they could define the science in question. After the trial when the judge admitted there is another way to present evidence the new company quickly developed the ability to reassert the previous claims. The company wasn't large by any means just determined to prove their science. If your next question is why weren't the defendants able to convince the jury of the validity of the science let's just say the jury wasn't able to handle the case based on pure chemistry and physics. The jury had little understanding of chemistry. They unfortunately relied on the personalities of the litigators and witnesses. > > > > Prior to the court case the old Alpine company had next to no research department They were little more than a company being led by an elderly Minnesota basement inventor who believed ozone could be a safe and purifying means to eliminate both germs and odors but when combined with ionizers could reduce or eliminate airborne dust which would make rooms fairly germ free. How do you explain such to a jury when the agents of the federal government were saying there is no proof of such? Well today there is proof. Irrefutable proof. It so happens the feds have been experimenting at the old Oak Ridge labs with reducing airborne risks and their work became very important following the 9/11 incidents. One of the government scientists developed a wearable device that would greatly reduce dust in one's breathing zone. He had patents and much research was behind the device. He was also the nation's most noted scientist in handling and describing aerosols. He was collaborating with the engineering department at the University of Cincinnati which had been producing peer reviewed studies for some time evaluating methods to control aerosols. The studies showed fine dust down at micron dimensions will act as an aerosol. Tests were performed and proved the efficiency of air filters could be greatly increased when the air is ionized. Thus if airborne dust or aerosols can be eliminated, germs which are readily so transported, will be easier to reduce or eliminate. > > > > The new EcoQuest company then formed a relationship with the inventor and became a distributor of that wearable product. The number of units that had been sold in the prior five years was exceeded within a few months. The several peer reviewed studies relating to the effects of ionization on aerosols then became a basis for much of Ecoquest's work with ionization. One result was the discovery that the common surgical face mask would be many times more efficient if the breathing air is ionized. Let's extend that to believe that if household air was ionized a MERV 6 air filter would act like a MERV 8 or 10 filter. > > > > If you are interested the University of Cincinnati professor heading the air ionization studies is Dr. Sergey Grinshpun. Titles of two of his peer reviewed reports are: " Evaluation of Ionic Air Purifiers for reducing aerosol exposure in confined indoor spaces " ; " Removal of Fine and Ultrafine particles from indoor air environments by unipolar ion emission. " He has many others which a Google search should readily identify. > > > > Thank you for your kind words. > > > > Ken Gibala > > > > > > > > > > Re: *Are Ozone Generators harmful? > > > > > > Thank you to everyone that replied to my question. I at least now > > have a little more knowledge of ozone generators. Ken, I like your > > response, but one could argue the other side of the fence that if a > > large company has enough money and legal power, they can eventually > > achieve their disired outcome. > > > > > > > > > > > > I recently had someone tell me that they are finding the Ozone > > > > Generators used to kill mold are actually more harmful than the > > mold > > > > itself. Has anyone else heard of this? > > > > > > > Visit Your Group > > > > MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMzg3NDc1BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA2MTE0NgRzZWMDdnRsBHNsaw > > N2Z2hwBHN0aW1lAzExOTc3Mjc5NzM-> > > > Healthy Eating > > > Find Yahoo! > > Groups > > 4.9706571/D=grphealth/S=1705061146:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1197735173/A=4718983 > > /R=0/SIG=11kunoe70/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/healthyeating/ > > > > > > > > > that are focused > > > > > > on healthy eating. > > > > > > Yahoo! Health > > > Fit for > > Life > > 9706571/D=grphealth/S=1705061146:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1197735173/A=5008809/R > > =0/SIG=10q26t77l/*http://health.yahoo.com/> > > > > > > Getting fit is now > > > > > > easier than ever. > > > > > > Search Ads > > > Get new > > customers. > > 333478674578/D=grphealth/S=1705061146:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1197735173/A=384 > > 8641/R=0/SIG=1312g85fq/*http://searchmarketing.yahoocom/arp/srchv2.ph > > p?o=US2003 & cmp=Yahoo & ctv=Groups2 & s=Y & s2= & s3= & b=50> > > > > > > List your web site > > > > > > in Yahoo! Search. > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > >

December 18, 2007

Alonzo

There is no safe level of ozone in indoor environments and dead bacteria and mold can still be an exposure problem, sometimes worse than when the colonies were still alive because the dead material is more likely to get into the air.

Ask Ken to tell you what he sells before you believe the last few posts from him.

Jim H. White

System Science Consulting

Re: *Are Ozone Generators harmful?

Thank you to everyone that replied to my question. I at least now have a little more knowledge of ozone generators. Ken, I like your response, but one could argue the other side of the fence that if a large company has enough money and legal power, they can eventually achieve their disired outcome. > >> > I recently had someone tell me that they are finding the Ozone > > Generators used to kill mold are actually more harmful than the mold > > itself. Has anyone else heard of this?> >> Visit Your Group <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/iequality;_ylc=X3oDMTJmZmZpZG52BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMzg3NDc1BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA2MTE0NgRzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2Z2hwBHN0aW1lAzExOTc3Mjc5NzM->> Healthy Eating> Find Yahoo! Groups<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12ma0doj9/M=493064.10928738.11515654.9706571/D=grphealth/S=1705061146:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1197735173/A=4718983/R=0/SIG=11kunoe70/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/healthyeating/>> > that are focused> > on healthy eating.> > Yahoo! Health> Fit for Life<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12maflb08/M=493064.11711024.12182482.9706571/D=grphealth/S=1705061146:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1197735173/A=5008809/R=0/SIG=10q26t77l/*http://health.yahoo.com/>> > Getting fit is now> > easier than ever.> > Search Ads> Get new customers.<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12mt77o3u/M=493064.10729656.11333347.8674578/D=grphealth/S=1705061146:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1197735173/A=3848641/R=0/SIG=1312g85fq/*http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/srchv2.php?o=US2003 & cmp=Yahoo & ctv=Groups2 & s=Y & s2= & s3= & b=50>> > List your web site> > in Yahoo! Search.> > .>

December 18, 2007

Alonzo

There is no safe level of ozone in indoor environments and dead bacteria and mold can still be an exposure problem, sometimes worse than when the colonies were still alive because the dead material is more likely to get into the air.

Ask Ken to tell you what he sells before you believe the last few posts from him.

Jim H. White

System Science Consulting

Re: *Are Ozone Generators harmful?

Thank you to everyone that replied to my question. I at least now have a little more knowledge of ozone generators. Ken, I like your response, but one could argue the other side of the fence that if a large company has enough money and legal power, they can eventually achieve their disired outcome. > >> > I recently had someone tell me that they are finding the Ozone > > Generators used to kill mold are actually more harmful than the mold > > itself. Has anyone else heard of this?> >> Visit Your Group <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/iequality;_ylc=X3oDMTJmZmZpZG52BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMzg3NDc1BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA2MTE0NgRzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2Z2hwBHN0aW1lAzExOTc3Mjc5NzM->> Healthy Eating> Find Yahoo! Groups<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12ma0doj9/M=493064.10928738.11515654.9706571/D=grphealth/S=1705061146:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1197735173/A=4718983/R=0/SIG=11kunoe70/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/healthyeating/>> > that are focused> > on healthy eating.> > Yahoo! Health> Fit for Life<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12maflb08/M=493064.11711024.12182482.9706571/D=grphealth/S=1705061146:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1197735173/A=5008809/R=0/SIG=10q26t77l/*http://health.yahoo.com/>> > Getting fit is now> > easier than ever.> > Search Ads> Get new customers.<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12mt77o3u/M=493064.10729656.11333347.8674578/D=grphealth/S=1705061146:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1197735173/A=3848641/R=0/SIG=1312g85fq/*http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/srchv2.php?o=US2003 & cmp=Yahoo & ctv=Groups2 & s=Y & s2= & s3= & b=50>> > List your web site> > in Yahoo! Search.> > .>

December 18, 2007

Dear Jim, Thank you for taking an interest in this thread. Let's expand for a moment what you have just stated and if you are willing we might discuss our particular viewpoints. You categoritcally say "There is no safe level of ozone in indoor environments" Then you say "dead bacteria and mold can still be an exposure problem, sometimes worse than when the colonies were still alive because the dead material is more likely to get into the air." Let me concede for the moment that dead mold can possibly become an exposure problem but truthfully I can see no way that dead bacteria can in any way be a problem. I would be most interested in learning the basis for such a belief. Maybe you could provide a reference to oxidized bacteria being harmful or contagious. I don't believe one could exist Since bacteria is 97+% water there seems no way for any viable substance from a bacterium to exist after the cell has been oxidized. I am asking for evidence of a human hazard not a hypothesis. While dead mold will leave physical fragments easily pulverized into micron sized dust particles there is always the annoyance of such dust becoming an irritation. There is even some evidence fungal fragments can be toxic to sensitive tissues so I do recognize the need to maintain a minimum level of particulates in our breathing atmosphere. And I certainly believe micron sized particulates may be more insidious than what can be seem. For that reason I subscribe to the use of ionized air to eliminate airborne particulates within our breathing environment. I consider room air filters highly inefficient though in some situations a fast and easy but expensive way to reduce particulates over time. Is your mold concern with the aspects of floating particulates or is it with possible toxic aspects of mold fragments? Now in regard to your beginning statement of there being no safe level of ozone in indoor environments. Could you explain why you say that? Certainly you are aware of the natural half life of ozone.... and that half-life is something less than 30 minutes. That being the case you might recall how basements with no incoming fresh air start to develop odors in a short time. Let's discuss. Basements are smelly and that I say is more often than not because there is no measurable ozone in unventilated basements.... Due to its short half-life ozone would become immeasurable in four to six hours.... Let's look at the numbers. In two hours a closed room would have but 6% of the natural content of ozone from a recently ventilated room. Is my math is correct in that four half-life's is 6%. If so allow me to continue the progression to five hours of being a closed basement room. My calculation says the ozone would then be one tenth of a percent or what it started out to be. Now is that the kind of an environment anyone could recommend? I do admit I don't know how much ozone is healthy. I suspect it is different for each one of us but different within a relatively close range of somewhere between 5 and 25 ppb. I understand the outdoor ozone levels are believed to have doubled in the past 200 years so maybe if today's outdoor level is 35-40 ppb then maybe it would be natural for humans to live indoors in an environment of no less than 15 ppb. So in my opinion a zero level of ozone is foolishness,,, totally unnatural and unhealthy. But why unhealthy? Because some level of ozone is needed to keep normal microbial growth in check. The odor in basements is that which microbes have respired. Keep microbes in check with some bit of a purifying substance. A tiny weenie little bit of ozone can not be harmful and does wonders to keep the premises smelling healthy. Just my opinion! Jim, you suggested I be asked what I sell so I'm pleased to reply. And after I reply let me ask you what it is you "sell". I sell several lines of "state of the art" air and water purifying devices as well as other devices attractive to the green market. I sell a device used by energy conscious individuals to correct the power factor in electric service. The power factor of any electric circuit is simply the ratio of electric energy consumed divided by energy purchased. The difference is that amount wasted by being converted into heat with the circuit. As competent engineers know any electric circuit wherein motors or transformers are connected, there are magnetic fields generated which create heat which represents lost electric power. The efficiency of an electric circuit is measured by a power factor. When the power factor is 1.0 the circuit is delivering full power for each kilowatt-hour of electricity purchased. When the power factor is as low as 0.8 then 20% of the electricity being purchased is being wasted through heat being generated. In the home with motors in air conditioners, washing machine, dishwashers, air blowers and with any transformer as in fluorescent lights the power factor may be as low as 0.8 - 0.9. However worse than that with commercial buildings having elevators and various motors and generators their power factor often will be as low as 0.65. And to make matters even worse for the commercial customer they almost all have to suffer a demand usage surcharge where their electric rate may become 10 or 20 times that of a residential customer during peak demand periods of the day. If we realize that commercial motors rarely operate at maximum load and the power factor for motors increase [improve] with load we see that motors that continually start and stop are converting great amounts of electricity to wasteful heat. The device I sell improves the power factor by buffering the electric circuit thus reducing the heat being produced. At today's cost of electricity the device will pay for itself well within two years. I also sell the complete line of Ecoquest products including air and water purification equipment. While Ecoquest inherited the complete line of air purifiers from Alpine these have been replaced with newer models designed to replicate the NASA technology of air purification. Today they are the leader in designing and manufacturing non ozone producing photocatalytic oxidizers. Contrary to what some may believe I am not a defender of ozone generators though I have been an EcoQuest dealer for several years. Thus I have access to some of their history not readily understood by those outside the industry. I don't consider my recent remarks to Alonzo or Carl Grimes as a defense of the old Alpine company but an attempt to set the record straight. There is no denial that old Alpine was trapped in what I believe to be the technical violation of laws requiring free traded articles to be honestly represented. They were accused of misrepresenting their products... of selling something that did not work... As I see it they were ordered to stop and prove to certain government agencies how their products worked. They attempted and the rest is history until they paid their million dollar fine. It was when the fine was levied Alpine was told in the future they could present as scientific evidence peer reviewed studies to substantiate their claims. Since then virtually all their previous claims have been approved and today they legally may claim what they were fined for claiming seven years ago. So Jim the truth is the truth and I've given it to you as I see it. Now what is it that you sell? And do you really believe there is no safe level of ozone in indoor environments? Ken Gibala ===================================== Re: *Are Ozone Generators harmful?Thank you to everyone that replied to my question. I at least now have a little more knowledge of ozone generators. Ken, I like your response, but one could argue the other side of the fence that if a large company has enough money and legal power, they can eventually achieve their disired outcome. > >> > I recently had someone tell me that they are finding the Ozone > > Generators used to kill mold are actually more harmful than the mold > > itself. Has anyone else heard of this?> >> Visit Your Group <http://groups.yahoocom/group/iequality;_ylc=X3oDMTJmZmZpZG52BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMzg3NDc1BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA2MTE0NgRzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2Z2hwBHN0aW1lAzExOTc3Mjc5NzM->> Healthy Eating> Find Yahoo! Groups<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12ma0doj9/M=493064.10928738.11515654.9706571/D=grphealth/S=1705061146:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1197735173/A=4718983/R=0/SIG=11kunoe70/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/healthyeating/>> > that are focused> > on healthy eating.> > Yahoo! Health> Fit for Life<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12maflb08/M=493064.11711024.12182482.9706571/D=grphealth/S=1705061146:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1197735173/A=5008809/R=0/SIG=10q26t77l/*http://health.yahoo.com/>> > Getting fit is now> > easier than ever.> > Search Ads> Get new customers.<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12mt77o3u/M=493064.10729656.11333347.8674578/D=grphealth/S=1705061146:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1197735173/A=3848641/R=0/SIG=1312g85fq/*http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/srchv2.php?o=US2003 & cmp=Yahoo & ctv=Groups2 & s=Y & s2= & s3= & b=50>> > List your web site> > in Yahoo! Search.> > .>

December 18, 2007

Ken, 3rd request: Show us the government documents and the peer reviewed studies supporting your claims about EcoQuest. Specifically those in your recent post to Jim White. " It was when the fine was levied Alpine was told in the future they could present as scientific evidence peer reviewed studies to substantiate their claims. Since then virtually all their previous claims have been approved and today they legally may claim what they were fined for claiming seven years ago. " It's only fair for you to produce your proof in light of the fact you asked Jim for his. BTW, I apologize if my requests have not been civil, as you privately wrote to me, so I'll now say " please. " Carl GrimesHealthy Habitats LLC----- > Dear Jim, > > > > Thank you for taking an interest in this thread. Let's expand for a moment what you have just stated and if you are willing we might discuss our particular viewpoints. > > > > You categoritcally say " There is no safe level of ozone in indoor environments " > > > > Then you say " dead bacteria and mold can still be an exposure problem, sometimes worse than when the colonies were still alive because the dead material is more likely to get into the air. " > > > > Let me concede for the moment that dead mold can possibly become an exposure problem but truthfully I can see no way that dead bacteria can in any way be a problem. I would be most interested in learning the basis for such a belief. Maybe you could provide a reference to oxidized bacteria being harmful or contagious. I don't believe one could exist. Since bacteria is 97+% water there seems no way for any viable substance from a bacterium to exist after the cell has been oxidized. I am asking for evidence of a human hazard not a hypothesis. > > > > While dead mold will leave physical fragments easily pulverized into micron sized dust particles there is always the annoyance of such dust becoming an irritation. There is even some evidence fungal fragments can be toxic to sensitive tissues so I do recognize the need to maintain a minimum level of particulates in our breathing atmosphere. And I certainly believe micron sized particulates may be more insidious than what can be seem. For that reason I subscribe to the use of ionized air to eliminate airborne particulates within our breathing environment. I consider room air filters highly inefficient though in some situations a fast and easy but expensive way to reduce particulates over time. Is your mold concern with the aspects of floating particulates or is it with possible toxic aspects of mold fragments? > > > > Now in regard to your beginning statement of there being no safe level of ozone in indoor environments. Could you explain why you say that? Certainly you are aware of the natural half life of ozone.... and that half-life is something less than 30 minutes. That being the case you might recall how basements with no incoming fresh air start to develop odors in a short time. Let's discuss. > > > > Basements are smelly and that I say is more often than not because there is no measurable ozone in unventilated basements.... Due to its short half-life ozone would become immeasurable in four to six hours.... Let's look at the numbers. In two hours a closed room would have but 6% of the natural content of ozone from a recently ventilated room. Is my math is correct in that four half-life's is 6%. If so allow me to continue the progression to five hours of being a closed basement room. My calculation says the ozone would then be one tenth of a percent or what it started out to be. Now is that the kind of an environment anyone could recommend? > > > > I do admit I don't know how much ozone is healthy. I suspect it is different for each one of us but different within a relatively close range of somewhere between 5 and 25 ppb. I understand the outdoor ozone levels are believed to have doubled in the past 200 years so maybe if today's outdoor level is 35-40 ppb then maybe it would be natural for humans to live indoors in an environment of no less than 15 ppb. So in my opinion a zero level of ozone is foolishness,,, totally unnatural and unhealthy. > > > > But why unhealthy? Because some level of ozone is needed to keep normal microbial growth in check. The odor in basements is that which microbes have respired. Keep microbes in check with some bit of a purifying substance. A tiny weenie little bit of ozone can not be harmful and does wonders to keep the premises smelling healthy. Just my opinion! > > > > Jim, you suggested I be asked what I sell so I'm pleased to reply. And after I reply let me ask you what it is you " sell " . > > > > I sell several lines of " state of the art " air and water purifying devices as well as other devices attractive to the green market. > > > > I sell a device used by energy conscious individuals to correct the power factor in electric service. The power factor of any electric circuit is simply the ratio of electric energy consumed divided by energy purchased. The difference is that amount wasted by being converted into heat with the circuit. > > > > As competent engineers know any electric circuit wherein motors or transformers are connected, there are magnetic fields generated which create heat which represents lost electric power. The efficiency of an electric circuit is measured by a power factor. When the power factor is 1.0 the circuit is delivering full power for each kilowatt-hour of electricity purchased. When the power factor is as low as 0.8 then 20% of the electricity being purchased is being wasted through heat being generated. In the home with motors in air conditioners, washing machine, dishwashers, air blowers and with any transformer as in fluorescent lights the power factor may be as low as 0.8 - 0.9. However worse than that with commercial buildings having elevators and various motors and generators their power factor often will be as low as 0.65. And to make matters even worse for the commercial customer they almost all have to suffer a demand usage surcharge where their electric rate may become 10 or 20 times that of a residential customer during peak demand periods of the day. If we realize that commercial motors rarely operate at maximum load and the power factor for motors increase [improve] with load we see that motors that continually start and stop are converting great amounts of electricity to wasteful heat. The device I sell improves the power factor by buffering the electric circuit thus reducing the heat being produced. At today's cost of electricity the device will pay for itself well within two years. > > > > I also sell the complete line of Ecoquest products including air and water purification equipment. While Ecoquest inherited the complete line of air purifiers from Alpine these have been replaced with newer models designed to replicate the NASA technology of air purification. Today they are the leader in designing and manufacturing non ozone producing photocatalytic oxidizers. > > > > Contrary to what some may believe I am not a defender of ozone generators though I have been an EcoQuest dealer for several years. Thus I have access to some of their history not readily understood by those outside the industry. I don't consider my recent remarks to Alonzo or Carl Grimes as a defense of the old Alpine company but an attempt to set the record straight. There is no denial that old Alpine was trapped in what I believe to be the technical violation of laws requiring free traded articles to be honestly represented. They were accused of misrepresenting their products... of selling something that did not work... As I see it they were ordered to stop and prove to certain government agencies how their products worked. They attempted and the rest is history until they paid their million dollar fine. It was when the fine was levied Alpine was told in the future they could present as scientific evidence peer reviewed studies to substantiate their claims. Since then virtually all their previous claims have been approved and today they legally may claim what they were fined for claiming seven years ago. > > > > So Jim the truth is the truth and I've given it to you as I see it. > > > > Now what is it that you sell? > > > > And do you really believe there is no safe level of ozone in indoor environments? > > > > Ken Gibala > > > > ===================================== > > > > Re: *Are Ozone Generators harmful? > > > > > > Thank you to everyone that replied to my question. I at least now > > have a little more knowledge of ozone generators. Ken, I like your > > response, but one could argue the other side of the fence that if a > > large company has enough money and legal power, they can eventually > > achieve their disired outcome. > > > > > > > > > > > > I recently had someone tell me that they are finding the Ozone > > > > Generators used to kill mold are actually more harmful than the > > mold > > > > itself Has anyone else heard of this? > > > > > > > Visit Your Group > > > > MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMzg3NDc1BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA2MTE0NgRzZWMDdnRsBHNsaw > > N2Z2hwBHN0aW1lAzExOTc3Mjc5NzM-> > > > Healthy Eating > > > Find Yahoo! > > Groups > > 4.9706571/D=grphealth/S=1705061146:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1197735173/A=4718983 > > /R=0/SIG=11kunoe70/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/healthyeating/ > > > > > > > > > that are focused > > > > > > on healthy eating. > > > > > > Yahoo! Health > > > Fit for > > Life > > 9706571/D=grphealth/S=1705061146:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1197735173/A=5008809/R > > =0/SIG=10q26t77l/*http://health.yahoo.com/> > > > > > > Getting fit is now > > > > > > easier than ever. > > > > > > Search Ads > > > Get new > > customers. > > 33347.8674578/D=grphealth/S=1705061146:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1197735173/A=384 > > 8641/R=0/SIG=1312g85fq/*http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/srchv2.ph > > p?o=US2003 & cmp=Yahoo & ctv=Groups2 & s=Y & s2= & s3= & b=50> > > > > > > List your web site > > > > > > in Yahoo! Search. > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

December 18, 2007

Ken, 3rd request: Show us the government documents and the peer reviewed studies supporting your claims about EcoQuest. Specifically those in your recent post to Jim White. " It was when the fine was levied Alpine was told in the future they could present as scientific evidence peer reviewed studies to substantiate their claims. Since then virtually all their previous claims have been approved and today they legally may claim what they were fined for claiming seven years ago. " It's only fair for you to produce your proof in light of the fact you asked Jim for his. BTW, I apologize if my requests have not been civil, as you privately wrote to me, so I'll now say " please. " Carl GrimesHealthy Habitats LLC----- > Dear Jim, > > > > Thank you for taking an interest in this thread. Let's expand for a moment what you have just stated and if you are willing we might discuss our particular viewpoints. > > > > You categoritcally say " There is no safe level of ozone in indoor environments " > > > > Then you say " dead bacteria and mold can still be an exposure problem, sometimes worse than when the colonies were still alive because the dead material is more likely to get into the air. " > > > > Let me concede for the moment that dead mold can possibly become an exposure problem but truthfully I can see no way that dead bacteria can in any way be a problem. I would be most interested in learning the basis for such a belief. Maybe you could provide a reference to oxidized bacteria being harmful or contagious. I don't believe one could exist. Since bacteria is 97+% water there seems no way for any viable substance from a bacterium to exist after the cell has been oxidized. I am asking for evidence of a human hazard not a hypothesis. > > > > While dead mold will leave physical fragments easily pulverized into micron sized dust particles there is always the annoyance of such dust becoming an irritation. There is even some evidence fungal fragments can be toxic to sensitive tissues so I do recognize the need to maintain a minimum level of particulates in our breathing atmosphere. And I certainly believe micron sized particulates may be more insidious than what can be seem. For that reason I subscribe to the use of ionized air to eliminate airborne particulates within our breathing environment. I consider room air filters highly inefficient though in some situations a fast and easy but expensive way to reduce particulates over time. Is your mold concern with the aspects of floating particulates or is it with possible toxic aspects of mold fragments? > > > > Now in regard to your beginning statement of there being no safe level of ozone in indoor environments. Could you explain why you say that? Certainly you are aware of the natural half life of ozone.... and that half-life is something less than 30 minutes. That being the case you might recall how basements with no incoming fresh air start to develop odors in a short time. Let's discuss. > > > > Basements are smelly and that I say is more often than not because there is no measurable ozone in unventilated basements.... Due to its short half-life ozone would become immeasurable in four to six hours.... Let's look at the numbers. In two hours a closed room would have but 6% of the natural content of ozone from a recently ventilated room. Is my math is correct in that four half-life's is 6%. If so allow me to continue the progression to five hours of being a closed basement room. My calculation says the ozone would then be one tenth of a percent or what it started out to be. Now is that the kind of an environment anyone could recommend? > > > > I do admit I don't know how much ozone is healthy. I suspect it is different for each one of us but different within a relatively close range of somewhere between 5 and 25 ppb. I understand the outdoor ozone levels are believed to have doubled in the past 200 years so maybe if today's outdoor level is 35-40 ppb then maybe it would be natural for humans to live indoors in an environment of no less than 15 ppb. So in my opinion a zero level of ozone is foolishness,,, totally unnatural and unhealthy. > > > > But why unhealthy? Because some level of ozone is needed to keep normal microbial growth in check. The odor in basements is that which microbes have respired. Keep microbes in check with some bit of a purifying substance. A tiny weenie little bit of ozone can not be harmful and does wonders to keep the premises smelling healthy. Just my opinion! > > > > Jim, you suggested I be asked what I sell so I'm pleased to reply. And after I reply let me ask you what it is you " sell " . > > > > I sell several lines of " state of the art " air and water purifying devices as well as other devices attractive to the green market. > > > > I sell a device used by energy conscious individuals to correct the power factor in electric service. The power factor of any electric circuit is simply the ratio of electric energy consumed divided by energy purchased. The difference is that amount wasted by being converted into heat with the circuit. > > > > As competent engineers know any electric circuit wherein motors or transformers are connected, there are magnetic fields generated which create heat which represents lost electric power. The efficiency of an electric circuit is measured by a power factor. When the power factor is 1.0 the circuit is delivering full power for each kilowatt-hour of electricity purchased. When the power factor is as low as 0.8 then 20% of the electricity being purchased is being wasted through heat being generated. In the home with motors in air conditioners, washing machine, dishwashers, air blowers and with any transformer as in fluorescent lights the power factor may be as low as 0.8 - 0.9. However worse than that with commercial buildings having elevators and various motors and generators their power factor often will be as low as 0.65. And to make matters even worse for the commercial customer they almost all have to suffer a demand usage surcharge where their electric rate may become 10 or 20 times that of a residential customer during peak demand periods of the day. If we realize that commercial motors rarely operate at maximum load and the power factor for motors increase [improve] with load we see that motors that continually start and stop are converting great amounts of electricity to wasteful heat. The device I sell improves the power factor by buffering the electric circuit thus reducing the heat being produced. At today's cost of electricity the device will pay for itself well within two years. > > > > I also sell the complete line of Ecoquest products including air and water purification equipment. While Ecoquest inherited the complete line of air purifiers from Alpine these have been replaced with newer models designed to replicate the NASA technology of air purification. Today they are the leader in designing and manufacturing non ozone producing photocatalytic oxidizers. > > > > Contrary to what some may believe I am not a defender of ozone generators though I have been an EcoQuest dealer for several years. Thus I have access to some of their history not readily understood by those outside the industry. I don't consider my recent remarks to Alonzo or Carl Grimes as a defense of the old Alpine company but an attempt to set the record straight. There is no denial that old Alpine was trapped in what I believe to be the technical violation of laws requiring free traded articles to be honestly represented. They were accused of misrepresenting their products... of selling something that did not work... As I see it they were ordered to stop and prove to certain government agencies how their products worked. They attempted and the rest is history until they paid their million dollar fine. It was when the fine was levied Alpine was told in the future they could present as scientific evidence peer reviewed studies to substantiate their claims. Since then virtually all their previous claims have been approved and today they legally may claim what they were fined for claiming seven years ago. > > > > So Jim the truth is the truth and I've given it to you as I see it. > > > > Now what is it that you sell? > > > > And do you really believe there is no safe level of ozone in indoor environments? > > > > Ken Gibala > > > > ===================================== > > > > Re: *Are Ozone Generators harmful? > > > > > > Thank you to everyone that replied to my question. I at least now > > have a little more knowledge of ozone generators. Ken, I like your > > response, but one could argue the other side of the fence that if a > > large company has enough money and legal power, they can eventually > > achieve their disired outcome. > > > > > > > > > > > > I recently had someone tell me that they are finding the Ozone > > > > Generators used to kill mold are actually more harmful than the > > mold > > > > itself Has anyone else heard of this? > > > > > > > Visit Your Group > > > > MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMzg3NDc1BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA2MTE0NgRzZWMDdnRsBHNsaw > > N2Z2hwBHN0aW1lAzExOTc3Mjc5NzM-> > > > Healthy Eating > > > Find Yahoo! > > Groups > > 4.9706571/D=grphealth/S=1705061146:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1197735173/A=4718983 > > /R=0/SIG=11kunoe70/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/healthyeating/ > > > > > > > > > that are focused > > > > > > on healthy eating. > > > > > > Yahoo! Health > > > Fit for > > Life > > 9706571/D=grphealth/S=1705061146:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1197735173/A=5008809/R > > =0/SIG=10q26t77l/*http://health.yahoo.com/> > > > > > > Getting fit is now > > > > > > easier than ever. > > > > > > Search Ads > > > Get new > > customers. > > 33347.8674578/D=grphealth/S=1705061146:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1197735173/A=384 > > 8641/R=0/SIG=1312g85fq/*http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/srchv2.ph > > p?o=US2003 & cmp=Yahoo & ctv=Groups2 & s=Y & s2= & s3= & b=50> > > > > > > List your web site > > > > > > in Yahoo! Search. > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

December 19, 2007

Let me concede for the moment that dead mold can possibly become an exposure problem but truthfully I can see no way that dead bacteria can in any way be a problem. I would be most interested in learning the basis for such a belief. Maybe you could provide a reference to oxidized bacteria being harmful or contagious. I don't believe one could exist Since bacteria is 97+% water there seems no way for any viable substance from a bacterium to exist after the cell has been oxidized. I am asking for evidence of a human hazard not a hypothesis.

Endotoxins (LPS) from gram-negative bacteria are highly immunoactive.

http://www.fasebj.org/cgi/content/abstract/5/12/2652

Steve Temes

December 19, 2007

Let me concede for the moment that dead mold can possibly become an exposure problem but truthfully I can see no way that dead bacteria can in any way be a problem. I would be most interested in learning the basis for such a belief. Maybe you could provide a reference to oxidized bacteria being harmful or contagious. I don't believe one could exist Since bacteria is 97+% water there seems no way for any viable substance from a bacterium to exist after the cell has been oxidized. I am asking for evidence of a human hazard not a hypothesis.

Endotoxins (LPS) from gram-negative bacteria are highly immunoactive.

http://www.fasebj.org/cgi/content/abstract/5/12/2652

Steve Temes