Re: Sealing my house interior // windows at fault?

[Guest guest]

Jim,

Is this what causes this to happen:

Cooling air causes air to drop it's water and thus shrinking air

molecule. Cooling air = shrinking air mass and shrinking air mass

causes negative air pressure???

>

> Brad

> Yes, the 'stack effect' reverses when the sign of the temperature

[Guest guest]

Jim,

Is this what causes this to happen:

Cooling air causes air to drop it's water and thus shrinking air

molecule. Cooling air = shrinking air mass and shrinking air mass

causes negative air pressure???

>

> Brad

> Yes, the 'stack effect' reverses when the sign of the temperature

[Guest guest]

Barb

I takes energy for air to hold water vapour in it and as the air cools it loses the ability of the air to hold moisture. At the Dew Point Temperature for an air mass with a specific absolute amount of moisture in it the Relative Humidity is 100% and that air is holding all it can at that temperature. Cool it further near a colder surface and some of the moisture leaves the air; condensation appears on the colder surface.

Jim

Re: Sealing my house interior // windows at fault?

Jim,Is this what causes this to happen:Cooling air causes air to drop it's water and thus shrinking air molecule. Cooling air = shrinking air mass and shrinking air mass causes negative air pressure??? >> Brad> Yes, the 'stack effect' reverses when the sign of the temperature

[Guest guest]

Steve, I think this is the case exactly. Fact that I have attic

smell to air in summertime, and in winter the upstairs windows have

had something unusual going on, all point to the problem being in

upper part of house, with attic and/or upper part of interior walls

too, so my guess is when air sealing guy gets up there he will find

walls at top totally open to attic, which in turn is open to

outside...not good. Maybe I could get somebody up there to look at

this sooner to know for sure but evidence at this point seems

overwhelming. Every time I do something to improve air based on

that assumption, it turns out it helps. Air in house is beginning

to smell pretty normal already and haven't done anything major yet.

In winter I think opening windows helped to clear sweating problem

because it allowed air from room to circulate against window pane,

evaporating water off..but maybe opened window covered over hole in

rope/pulley system, but I doubt it since windows are hung so loosely

in track.

I agree that logic and intuition don't seem to work as well in

indoor air solutions as in many other things, since there are so

**many** unknown factors, like exactly how many cracks in house and

where they are. Before this I never thought about whether interior

walls were open to attic or not. Who would? I just figured other

people's attics are vented to keep cool so it would be good for my

attic also, but now I know have to consider that not all attics are

the same. I'm sure I'm not the only one to make this mistake but

perhaps more exaggerated since I put more vents in attic than

usual/recommended... assuming if one is good, two would be better,

which has been pointed out here as not a good rule to go by.

The windows here here have come out in order to fix ropes and

pulleys before so I know how that is done. In these windows though

it doesn't show wall cavity, just a cavity that pulley goes up and

down in and you do need to fish down in this 'window cavity' to get

the pulley if it has fallen off.

I just hope in winter that condensation didn't happen higher up in

walls above windows. I will be checking attic for any sign of

condensation problem but don't have any way to check down into walls

without doing alot of tearup up with no proof that it is needed yet.

I am hoping that sealing off outside air from getting down into

walls will be enough of a fix.

>

> Barb,

>

> Let's try this as a hypothesis for the sweaty windows:

>

>

[Guest guest]

Steve, I think this is the case exactly. Fact that I have attic

smell to air in summertime, and in winter the upstairs windows have

had something unusual going on, all point to the problem being in

upper part of house, with attic and/or upper part of interior walls

too, so my guess is when air sealing guy gets up there he will find

walls at top totally open to attic, which in turn is open to

outside...not good. Maybe I could get somebody up there to look at

this sooner to know for sure but evidence at this point seems

overwhelming. Every time I do something to improve air based on

that assumption, it turns out it helps. Air in house is beginning

to smell pretty normal already and haven't done anything major yet.

In winter I think opening windows helped to clear sweating problem

because it allowed air from room to circulate against window pane,

evaporating water off..but maybe opened window covered over hole in

rope/pulley system, but I doubt it since windows are hung so loosely

in track.

I agree that logic and intuition don't seem to work as well in

indoor air solutions as in many other things, since there are so

**many** unknown factors, like exactly how many cracks in house and

where they are. Before this I never thought about whether interior

walls were open to attic or not. Who would? I just figured other

people's attics are vented to keep cool so it would be good for my

attic also, but now I know have to consider that not all attics are

the same. I'm sure I'm not the only one to make this mistake but

perhaps more exaggerated since I put more vents in attic than

usual/recommended... assuming if one is good, two would be better,

which has been pointed out here as not a good rule to go by.

The windows here here have come out in order to fix ropes and

pulleys before so I know how that is done. In these windows though

it doesn't show wall cavity, just a cavity that pulley goes up and

down in and you do need to fish down in this 'window cavity' to get

the pulley if it has fallen off.

I just hope in winter that condensation didn't happen higher up in

walls above windows. I will be checking attic for any sign of

condensation problem but don't have any way to check down into walls

without doing alot of tearup up with no proof that it is needed yet.

I am hoping that sealing off outside air from getting down into

walls will be enough of a fix.

>

> Barb,

>

> Let's try this as a hypothesis for the sweaty windows:

>

>

[Guest guest]

Steve, I think this is the case exactly. Fact that I have attic

smell to air in summertime, and in winter the upstairs windows have

had something unusual going on, all point to the problem being in

upper part of house, with attic and/or upper part of interior walls

too, so my guess is when air sealing guy gets up there he will find

walls at top totally open to attic, which in turn is open to

outside...not good. Maybe I could get somebody up there to look at

this sooner to know for sure but evidence at this point seems

overwhelming. Every time I do something to improve air based on

that assumption, it turns out it helps. Air in house is beginning

to smell pretty normal already and haven't done anything major yet.

In winter I think opening windows helped to clear sweating problem

because it allowed air from room to circulate against window pane,

evaporating water off..but maybe opened window covered over hole in

rope/pulley system, but I doubt it since windows are hung so loosely

in track.

I agree that logic and intuition don't seem to work as well in

indoor air solutions as in many other things, since there are so

**many** unknown factors, like exactly how many cracks in house and

where they are. Before this I never thought about whether interior

walls were open to attic or not. Who would? I just figured other

people's attics are vented to keep cool so it would be good for my

attic also, but now I know have to consider that not all attics are

the same. I'm sure I'm not the only one to make this mistake but

perhaps more exaggerated since I put more vents in attic than

usual/recommended... assuming if one is good, two would be better,

which has been pointed out here as not a good rule to go by.

The windows here here have come out in order to fix ropes and

pulleys before so I know how that is done. In these windows though

it doesn't show wall cavity, just a cavity that pulley goes up and

down in and you do need to fish down in this 'window cavity' to get

the pulley if it has fallen off.

I just hope in winter that condensation didn't happen higher up in

walls above windows. I will be checking attic for any sign of

condensation problem but don't have any way to check down into walls

without doing alot of tearup up with no proof that it is needed yet.

I am hoping that sealing off outside air from getting down into

walls will be enough of a fix.

>

> Barb,

>

> Let's try this as a hypothesis for the sweaty windows:

>

>

[Guest guest]

Barb

Way back when I told you of the attic sealing option of using two-part urethane insulation on the attic floor. Now that you have, correctly I believe, decided to get rid of the old insulation (many of my more-sensitive clients have had to do this since it was truly gross!!) you can solve so may problems by sealing off the attic using the urethane air sealing technique on the attic floor. It really works.

Jim H. White SSC

Re: Sealing my house interior // windows at fault?

Steve, I think this is the case exactly. Fact that I have attic smell to air in summertime, and in winter the upstairs windows have had something unusual going on, all point to the problem being in upper part of house, with attic and/or upper part of interior walls too, so my guess is when air sealing guy gets up there he will find walls at top totally open to attic, which in turn is open to outside...not good. Maybe I could get somebody up there to look at this sooner to know for sure but evidence at this point seems overwhelming. Every time I do something to improve air based on that assumption, it turns out it helps. Air in house is beginning to smell pretty normal already and haven't done anything major yet.In winter I think opening windows helped to clear sweating problem because it allowed air from room to circulate against window pane, evaporating water off..but maybe opened window covered over hole in rope/pulley system, but I doubt it since windows are hung so loosely in track.I agree that logic and intuition don't seem to work as well in indoor air solutions as in many other things, since there are so **many** unknown factors, like exactly how many cracks in house and where they are. Before this I never thought about whether interior walls were open to attic or not. Who would? I just figured other people's attics are vented to keep cool so it would be good for my attic also, but now I know have to consider that not all attics are the same. I'm sure I'm not the only one to make this mistake but perhaps more exaggerated since I put more vents in attic than usual/recommended... assuming if one is good, two would be better, which has been pointed out here as not a good rule to go by. The windows here here have come out in order to fix ropes and pulleys before so I know how that is done. In these windows though it doesn't show wall cavity, just a cavity that pulley goes up and down in and you do need to fish down in this 'window cavity' to get the pulley if it has fallen off. I just hope in winter that condensation didn't happen higher up in walls above windows. I will be checking attic for any sign of condensation problem but don't have any way to check down into walls without doing alot of tearup up with no proof that it is needed yet. I am hoping that sealing off outside air from getting down into walls will be enough of a fix. >> Barb,> > Let's try this as a hypothesis for the sweaty windows: > >

[Guest guest]

Jim,

The insulation acts like a filter and

thereafter becomes a reservoir.

EnviroBob

From:

iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Jim H. White

Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 11:06

AM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: Re:

Sealing my house interior // windows at fault?

Barb

Way back when I told you of the attic sealing option of

using two-part urethane insulation on the attic floor. Now that you have,

correctly I believe, decided to get rid of the old insulation (many of my more-sensitive

clients have had to do this since it was truly gross!!) you can solve so may

problems by sealing off the attic using the urethane air sealing technique on

the attic floor. It really works.

Jim H. White SSC

Re:

Sealing my house interior // windows at fault?

Steve, I think this is the case exactly. Fact that I

have attic

smell to air in summertime, and in winter the upstairs windows have

had something unusual going on, all point to the problem being in

upper part of house, with attic and/or upper part of interior walls

too, so my guess is when air sealing guy gets up there he will find

walls at top totally open to attic, which in turn is open to

outside...not good. Maybe I could get somebody up there to look at

this sooner to know for sure but evidence at this point seems

overwhelming. Every time I do something to improve air based on

that assumption, it turns out it helps. Air in house is beginning

to smell pretty normal already and haven't done anything major yet.

In winter I think opening windows helped to clear sweating problem

because it allowed air from room to circulate against window pane,

evaporating water off..but maybe opened window covered over hole in

rope/pulley system, but I doubt it since windows are hung so loosely

in track.

I agree that logic and intuition don't seem to work as well in

indoor air solutions as in many other things, since there are so

**many** unknown factors, like exactly how many cracks in house and

where they are. Before this I never thought about whether interior

walls were open to attic or not. Who would? I just figured other

people's attics are vented to keep cool so it would be good for my

attic also, but now I know have to consider that not all attics are

the same. I'm sure I'm not the only one to make this mistake but

perhaps more exaggerated since I put more vents in attic than

usual/recommended... assuming if one is good, two would be better,

which has been pointed out here as not a good rule to go by.

The windows here here have come out in order to fix ropes and

pulleys before so I know how that is done. In these windows though

it doesn't show wall cavity, just a cavity that pulley goes up and

down in and you do need to fish down in this 'window cavity' to get

the pulley if it has fallen off.

I just hope in winter that condensation didn't happen higher up in

walls above windows. I will be checking attic for any sign of

condensation problem but don't have any way to check down into walls

without doing alot of tearup up with no proof that it is needed yet.

I am hoping that sealing off outside air from getting down into

walls will be enough of a fix.

>

> Barb,

>

> Let's try this as a hypothesis for the sweaty windows:

>

>

[Guest guest]

Jim,

The insulation acts like a filter and

thereafter becomes a reservoir.

EnviroBob

From:

iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Jim H. White

Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 11:06

AM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: Re:

Sealing my house interior // windows at fault?

Barb

Way back when I told you of the attic sealing option of

using two-part urethane insulation on the attic floor. Now that you have,

correctly I believe, decided to get rid of the old insulation (many of my more-sensitive

clients have had to do this since it was truly gross!!) you can solve so may

problems by sealing off the attic using the urethane air sealing technique on

the attic floor. It really works.

Jim H. White SSC

Re:

Sealing my house interior // windows at fault?

Steve, I think this is the case exactly. Fact that I

have attic

smell to air in summertime, and in winter the upstairs windows have

had something unusual going on, all point to the problem being in

upper part of house, with attic and/or upper part of interior walls

too, so my guess is when air sealing guy gets up there he will find

walls at top totally open to attic, which in turn is open to

outside...not good. Maybe I could get somebody up there to look at

this sooner to know for sure but evidence at this point seems

overwhelming. Every time I do something to improve air based on

that assumption, it turns out it helps. Air in house is beginning

to smell pretty normal already and haven't done anything major yet.

In winter I think opening windows helped to clear sweating problem

because it allowed air from room to circulate against window pane,

evaporating water off..but maybe opened window covered over hole in

rope/pulley system, but I doubt it since windows are hung so loosely

in track.

I agree that logic and intuition don't seem to work as well in

indoor air solutions as in many other things, since there are so

**many** unknown factors, like exactly how many cracks in house and

where they are. Before this I never thought about whether interior

walls were open to attic or not. Who would? I just figured other

people's attics are vented to keep cool so it would be good for my

attic also, but now I know have to consider that not all attics are

the same. I'm sure I'm not the only one to make this mistake but

perhaps more exaggerated since I put more vents in attic than

usual/recommended... assuming if one is good, two would be better,

which has been pointed out here as not a good rule to go by.

The windows here here have come out in order to fix ropes and

pulleys before so I know how that is done. In these windows though

it doesn't show wall cavity, just a cavity that pulley goes up and

down in and you do need to fish down in this 'window cavity' to get

the pulley if it has fallen off.

I just hope in winter that condensation didn't happen higher up in

walls above windows. I will be checking attic for any sign of

condensation problem but don't have any way to check down into walls

without doing alot of tearup up with no proof that it is needed yet.

I am hoping that sealing off outside air from getting down into

walls will be enough of a fix.

>

> Barb,

>

> Let's try this as a hypothesis for the sweaty windows:

>

>

[Guest guest]

By giving Barb free written advice (over and over again from many of us) on this forum, I wonder if it implies consulting services have been provided and thereby some sort of liability is implied.

Is this a forum for professionals to share ideas or with each other or is it a forum for giving advice about real life situations to consumers based on their opinion of a problem (that could be taken out of context and potentially used incorrectly)? It seems to me that professionals should be hired (or at their option, donate their services) and they should physically inspect a project site and only then make opinions about condition and appropriate remedies.

Amy S.

Re: Sealing my house interior // windows at fault?

Steve, I think this is the case exactly. Fact that I have attic smell to air in summertime, and in winter the upstairs windows have had something unusual going on, all point to the problem being in upper part of house, with attic and/or upper part of interior walls too, so my guess is when air sealing guy gets up there he will find walls at top totally open to attic, which in turn is open to outside...not good. Maybe I could get somebody up there to look at this sooner to know for sure but evidence at this point seems overwhelming. Every time I do something to improve air based on that assumption, it turns out it helps. Air in house is beginning to smell pretty normal already and haven't done anything major yet.In winter I think opening windows helped to clear sweating problem because it allowed air from room to circulate against window pane, evaporating water off..but maybe opened window covered over hole in rope/pulley system, but I doubt it since windows are hung so loosely in track.I agree that logic and intuition don't seem to work as well in indoor air solutions as in many other things, since there are so **many** unknown factors, like exactly how many cracks in house and where they are. Before this I never thought about whether interior walls were open to attic or not. Who would? I just figured other people's attics are vented to keep cool so it would be good for my attic also, but now I know have to consider that not all attics are the same. I'm sure I'm not the only one to make this mistake but perhaps more exaggerated since I put more vents in attic than usual/recommended... assuming if one is good, two would be better, which has been pointed out here as not a good rule to go by. The windows here here have come out in order to fix ropes and pulleys before so I know how that is done. In these windows though it doesn't show wall cavity, just a cavity that pulley goes up and down in and you do need to fish down in this 'window cavity' to get the pulley if it has fallen off. I just hope in winter that condensation didn't happen higher up in walls above windows. I will be checking attic for any sign of condensation problem but don't have any way to check down into walls without doing alot of tearup up with no proof that it is needed yet. I am hoping that sealing off outside air from getting down into walls will be enough of a fix. >> Barb,> > Let's try this as a hypothesis for the sweaty windows: > >

[Guest guest]

Amy,

You raise an interesting point. I don't think there's anything wrong with

a consumer asking an occasional generalized question or two and

getting a couple of professional opinions.

Barb (no offense intended here Barb) has been engaging in q/a dialog

to the point where I think it could be legally construed (or

misconstrued) as respondants providing consulting services, and their

potentially incurring some liability. Payment for services isn't

necessary to incur liability, so that's not an issue, and doesn't get the

respondant consultants off the hook.

Also, I also strongly agree that in order to provide consulting

services/advice to the degree being discussed, a site visit is

mandatory.

Chuck Reaney

By giving Barb free written advice (over and over again from many of

us) on this forum, I wonder if it implies consulting services have

been provided and thereby some sort of liability is implied.

Is this a forum for professionals to share ideas or with each other or

is it a forum for giving advice about real life situations to

consumers based on their opinion of a problem (that could be taken

out

of context and potentially used incorrectly)? It seems to me that

professionals should be hired (or at their option, donate their

services) and they should physically inspect a project site and only

then make opinions about condition and appropriate remedies.

Amy S.

Re: Sealing my house interior // windows at

fault?

Steve, I think this is the case exactly. Fact that I have attic

smell to air in summertime, and in winter the upstairs windows

have had something unusual going on, all point to the problem

being in upper part of house, with attic and/or upper part of

interior walls too, so my guess is when air sealing guy gets up

there he will find walls at top totally open to attic, which in

turn is open to outside...not good. Maybe I could get somebody up

there to look at this sooner to know for sure but evidence at this

point seems overwhelming. Every time I do something to improve air

based on that assumption, it turns out it helps. Air in house is

beginning to smell pretty normal already and haven't done anything

major yet.

In winter I think opening windows helped to clear sweating problem

because it allowed air from room to circulate against window pane,

evaporating water off..but maybe opened window covered over hole

in rope/pulley system, but I doubt it since windows are hung so

loosely in track.

I agree that logic and intuition don't seem to work as well in

indoor air solutions as in many other things, since there are so

**many** unknown factors, like exactly how many cracks in house

and where they are. Before this I never thought about whether

interior walls were open to attic or not. Who would? I just

figured other people's attics are vented to keep cool so it would

be good for my attic also, but now I know have to consider that

not all attics are the same. I'm sure I'm not the only one to make

this mistake but perhaps more exaggerated since I put more vents

in attic than usual/recommended... assuming if one is good, two

would be better, which has been pointed out here as not a good

rule to go by. The windows here here have come out in order to fix

ropes and pulleys before so I know how that is done. In these

windows though it doesn't show wall cavity, just a cavity that

pulley goes up and down in and you do need to fish down in this

'window cavity' to get the pulley if it has fallen off. I just

hope in winter that condensation didn't happen higher up in walls

above windows. I will be checking attic for any sign of

condensation problem but don't have any way to check down into

walls without doing alot of tearup up with no proof that it is

needed yet. I am hoping that sealing off outside air from getting

down into walls will be enough of a fix.

> > Barb, > > Let's try this as a hypothesis for the sweaty

windows: > >

__________________________________________________

Alpha Environmental, Inc.

Indoor Air Quality & Environmental Consulting

624 W. Saint s Dr.

Media, PA 19063

Phone: Fax: Cell:

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Amy,

You raise an interesting point. I don't think there's anything wrong with

a consumer asking an occasional generalized question or two and

getting a couple of professional opinions.

Barb (no offense intended here Barb) has been engaging in q/a dialog

to the point where I think it could be legally construed (or

misconstrued) as respondants providing consulting services, and their

potentially incurring some liability. Payment for services isn't

necessary to incur liability, so that's not an issue, and doesn't get the

respondant consultants off the hook.

Also, I also strongly agree that in order to provide consulting

services/advice to the degree being discussed, a site visit is

mandatory.

Chuck Reaney

By giving Barb free written advice (over and over again from many of

us) on this forum, I wonder if it implies consulting services have

been provided and thereby some sort of liability is implied.

Is this a forum for professionals to share ideas or with each other or

is it a forum for giving advice about real life situations to

consumers based on their opinion of a problem (that could be taken

out

of context and potentially used incorrectly)? It seems to me that

professionals should be hired (or at their option, donate their

services) and they should physically inspect a project site and only

then make opinions about condition and appropriate remedies.

Amy S.

Re: Sealing my house interior // windows at

fault?

Steve, I think this is the case exactly. Fact that I have attic

smell to air in summertime, and in winter the upstairs windows

have had something unusual going on, all point to the problem

being in upper part of house, with attic and/or upper part of

interior walls too, so my guess is when air sealing guy gets up

there he will find walls at top totally open to attic, which in

turn is open to outside...not good. Maybe I could get somebody up

there to look at this sooner to know for sure but evidence at this

point seems overwhelming. Every time I do something to improve air

based on that assumption, it turns out it helps. Air in house is

beginning to smell pretty normal already and haven't done anything

major yet.

In winter I think opening windows helped to clear sweating problem

because it allowed air from room to circulate against window pane,

evaporating water off..but maybe opened window covered over hole

in rope/pulley system, but I doubt it since windows are hung so

loosely in track.

I agree that logic and intuition don't seem to work as well in

indoor air solutions as in many other things, since there are so

**many** unknown factors, like exactly how many cracks in house

and where they are. Before this I never thought about whether

interior walls were open to attic or not. Who would? I just

figured other people's attics are vented to keep cool so it would

be good for my attic also, but now I know have to consider that

not all attics are the same. I'm sure I'm not the only one to make

this mistake but perhaps more exaggerated since I put more vents

in attic than usual/recommended... assuming if one is good, two

would be better, which has been pointed out here as not a good

rule to go by. The windows here here have come out in order to fix

ropes and pulleys before so I know how that is done. In these

windows though it doesn't show wall cavity, just a cavity that

pulley goes up and down in and you do need to fish down in this

'window cavity' to get the pulley if it has fallen off. I just

hope in winter that condensation didn't happen higher up in walls

above windows. I will be checking attic for any sign of

condensation problem but don't have any way to check down into

walls without doing alot of tearup up with no proof that it is

needed yet. I am hoping that sealing off outside air from getting

down into walls will be enough of a fix.

> > Barb, > > Let's try this as a hypothesis for the sweaty

windows: > >

__________________________________________________

Alpha Environmental, Inc.

Indoor Air Quality & Environmental Consulting

624 W. Saint s Dr.

Media, PA 19063

Phone: Fax: Cell:

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

My sincerest apologies to group if I have posted too often.

>

> Amy,

>

> You raise an interesting point. I don't think there's anything

wrong with a consumer asking an occasional generalized question or two

and getting a couple of professional opinions.

>

[Guest guest]

My sincerest apologies to group if I have posted too often.

>

> Amy,

>

> You raise an interesting point. I don't think there's anything

wrong with a consumer asking an occasional generalized question or two

and getting a couple of professional opinions.

>

[Guest guest]

Barb,

Thank you for your apology, although I don't believe that it's necessary.

While many on this list are very free and open with their advice, for

which I commend them, there are issues of liability that could arise, as

I stated in my previous post.

Amy's point was certainly valid in that respect. So, the result was that

Amy and I were also providing advice and opinions to our fellow

professionals. I don't know where the line is between reasonable

general questions and responses and threads that get very detailed

when it comes to the desire of members of our profession to assist

those seeking help. It's not up to me to decide.

The exchange between Amy and I was simply a reminder to the well-

intentioned that without a site visit, they could be putting themselves in

a precarious legal position, and doing so without the benefit of

compensation. It was not meant to be especially critical of anyone in

particular.

My opinion on the subject is that you consider retaining someone to

provide the services you seek who is in a position to visit your site and

provide advice specifically applicable to your structure, as one of the

essential elements involved in being a consultant is being thoroughly

acquainted with the site and the particular problem so that the advice

they give and the recommendations they make are accurate. That

minimizes the possibility of them putting themselves in a position of

providing what they believe is good advice in what could in reality be a

bad situation due to lack of information.

Consultants get paid for their time and advice and theoretically for the

liabiities they incur in providing same. While they are well intentioned

in attempting to assist you, I think that the phrase 'no good deed goes

unpunished' would be good for them to keep in mind.

Sincerely,

Chuck Reaney

My sincerest apologies to group if I have posted too often.

> > Amy, > > You raise an interesting point. I don't think there's

anything wrong with a consumer asking an occasional generalized

question or two and getting a couple of professional opinions. >

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for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title

17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed

without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in

receiving the included information for research and educational

purposes. For more information go to:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use

copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go

beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright

owner.

[Guest guest]

Good advice Chuck. It should also be noted that the information and advice given here can become discoverable information. So while we would all like to help each and every person that has a problem here, it is not prudent to give too much detailed advice without having investigated the property.

Al Tibbs, CIEC, CIAQT, CIAQM

C.L.I. Group, LLC

Cleveland, OH

[Guest guest]

Hi Chuck,

Thanks for your post to me explaining your position and also for

earlier statement that you did not mean to be referring to me only.

Since group is set up and states on front page that it is a group

for indoor air professionals to discuss indoor air quality issues,

and does not invite questions from the public, I don't see how

someone like myself who is not an indoor air quality person could

sue someone here for advice given. To me that would be like coming

to a party you were not invited to and then suing the host for

choking on their food, or suing someone you sat next to on a bus

that you casually asked advice from. I think it would be easier for

you all to sue each other. However I will say though I did say upon

asking to join that I was not an indoor professional but just wanted

to read and that is what I did first year I was here and then I did

venture some questions since I noticed some non pros posting on

occasion, but anyway... I posted more frequently starting late last

summer, since I had to move out of my house (Sept 7th) and into an

extended stay motel and now an apartment as I realized house was

definately making me feel sick, so was desperate to figure it out.

I'm not looking for others to figure it out though.

Regarding sueing, if the group put a link somewhere offering free

advise to the public, perhaps that could happen, but in the format

of this group, I don't see how someone could sue anyone here.

I didn't apologize for posting based on what you said but apologized

to people who joined because they wanted to talk to other indoor air

professionals and may have been tired of deleting through my posts,

since I looked back over the recent postings and saw my name all

over the place and decided I had posted too much.

I don't expect anyone here to diagnose my house problems without a

house visit, but rather I am trying to get information to help me to

figure out as much as I can myself as to what may be wrong. So I

guess I will have to sue myself for coming to the wrong conclusions

based on what I read.

I have posted here that I have hired professional indoor air quality

people before, 2005. In fact thought it was in very good

condition. Based on that good grade, I stayed in house longer until

last summer when I couldn't deny that despite good reports, house

was making me sick. I'm trying to figure it out myself.

You might think that sounds impossible that I might figure it out

myself, but I called in about a dozen professionals for advice on

how to repair foundation problem in 1998 and wasted alot of money

following their advice and paying for their work. Finally read up

on it myself, became my own contractor, hired someone I paid for by

the hour, told him exactly what I wanted done and problem was

finally solved by *me* after thousands of dollars wasted on people

who put their name out there as experts in foundation water

problems. What they did at my house that didn't work, might have

worked on another house but I don't rely totally on someone else's

advise anymore no matter how credentialed they are. I decided I'm

ultimately responsible to figure out if solution proposed is

reasonable to the extend that is possible, instead of complaining

that other people didn't have the right answer. I don't have to

figure it out by asking questions here though. I can google, or

check out books on indoor air quality. Those things I am doing

also.

My question on using smoke in attic was not to revisit issue of

whether attic air may be getting down into my house. I know it is.

There is no doubt. It was to determine if there are tests I could

do to determine if chimney is a source of air traveling since I have

gotten quotes on sealing chimney up and solutions to that

possible 'hole' in house is very expensive to fix, $4k to rebuilt

and $2k to line it which is current code on new chimneys from one

bidder, $5k just for liner alone from another bidder who says

chimney size needs custom size liner, etc. Also asked question

since I find the air movement in house topic interesting and was

just wondering.

Recent experience has shown me that it just isn't heat that send

attic air down into my house but also moisture levels. Now that

outside humidity levels are going up, I've gone home on cool 75

degree days expecting air in house to smell fine, only to discover

that it that it smells worse than it did on a 90 degree dry day a

few weeks ago. I assume from this, that moist air is heavier than

dry air and that must be an important factor also in air movement.

Dehumidying air in house and humid air in attic.

I am waiting until I have everything planned before I start any work

since I have to see the total cost, since if I cannot afford to do

it everything it needs for me to move back, might as well not do

anything at all and just sell it 'as is' and reveal that attic air

is getting down into house and attic needs to be sealed and let

someone else with a bigger pocketbook work on house and move on.

>

> Barb,

>

> Thank you for your apology, although I don't believe that it's

necessary.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Barb and Chuck,

This Yahoo group forum is in

the public domain. What we speak about must be well thought out because,

we as experts can find our written thoughts and opinions coming back to us in

court or arbitration hearings. I found this out several years ago, and recently,

another environmental professional experienced the same. Meaning, the attorney

for the opposing side may try to use our communications with you against us for

his case if he finds we have varying points of view on the same subject.

The advice we provide may be helpful

to you, but since we are not at your property and we do not have first-hand

knowledge of your situation, the direction we provide anyone with should be

questioned before applying it. What may be helpful in one situation may not be

a realistic approach to problem recognition and solving in the next project.

As experts, we carry Errors

and Omissions insurance for protecting our self from frivolous lawsuits. Anything

we say or do professionally may try to come back to haunt us years later.

Moffett

From:

iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of barb1283

Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 9:07 AM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: Sealing my house interior // windows at fault?

Hi Chuck,

Thanks for your post to me explaining your position and also for

earlier statement that you did not mean to be referring to me only.

Since group is set up and states on front page that it is a group

for indoor air professionals to discuss indoor air quality issues,

and does not invite questions from the public, I don't see how

someone like myself who is not an indoor air quality person could

sue someone here for advice given. To me that would be like coming

to a party you were not invited to and then suing the host for

choking on their food, or suing someone you sat next to on a bus

that you casually asked advice from. I think it would be easier for

you all to sue each other. However I will say though I did say upon

asking to join that I was not an indoor professional but just wanted

to read and that is what I did first year I was here and then I did

venture some questions since I noticed some non pros posting on

occasion, but anyway... I posted more frequently starting late last

summer, since I had to move out of my house (Sept 7th) and into an

extended stay motel and now an apartment as I realized house was

definately making me feel sick, so was desperate to figure it out.

I'm not looking for others to figure it out though.

Regarding sueing, if the group put a link somewhere offering free

advise to the public, perhaps that could happen, but in the format

of this group, I don't see how someone could sue anyone here.

I didn't apologize for posting based on what you said but apologized

to people who joined because they wanted to talk to other indoor air

professionals and may have been tired of deleting through my posts,

since I looked back over the recent postings and saw my name all

over the place and decided I had posted too much.

I don't expect anyone here to diagnose my house problems without a

house visit, but rather I am trying to get information to help me to

figure out as much as I can myself as to what may be wrong. So I

guess I will have to sue myself for coming to the wrong conclusions

based on what I read.

I have posted here that I have hired professional indoor air quality

people before, 2005. In fact thought it was in very good

condition. Based on that good grade, I stayed in house longer until

last summer when I couldn't deny that despite good reports, house

was making me sick. I'm trying to figure it out myself.

You might think that sounds impossible that I might figure it out

myself, but I called in about a dozen professionals for advice on

how to repair foundation problem in 1998 and wasted alot of money

following their advice and paying for their work. Finally read up

on it myself, became my own contractor, hired someone I paid for by

the hour, told him exactly what I wanted done and problem was

finally solved by *me* after thousands of dollars wasted on people

who put their name out there as experts in foundation water

problems. What they did at my house that didn't work, might have

worked on another house but I don't rely totally on someone else's

advise anymore no matter how credentialed they are. I decided I'm

ultimately responsible to figure out if solution proposed is

reasonable to the extend that is possible, instead of complaining

that other people didn't have the right answer. I don't have to

figure it out by asking questions here though. I can google, or

check out books on indoor air quality. Those things I am doing

also.

My question on using smoke in attic was not to revisit issue of

whether attic air may be getting down into my house. I know it is.

There is no doubt. It was to determine if there are tests I could

do to determine if chimney is a source of air traveling since I have

gotten quotes on sealing chimney up and solutions to that

possible 'hole' in house is very expensive to fix, $4k to rebuilt

and $2k to line it which is current code on new chimneys from one

bidder, $5k just for liner alone from another bidder who says

chimney size needs custom size liner, etc. Also asked question

since I find the air movement in house topic interesting and was

just wondering.

Recent experience has shown me that it just isn't heat that send

attic air down into my house but also moisture levels. Now that

outside humidity levels are going up, I've gone home on cool 75

degree days expecting air in house to smell fine, only to discover

that it that it smells worse than it did on a 90 degree dry day a

few weeks ago. I assume from this, that moist air is heavier than

dry air and that must be an important factor also in air movement.

Dehumidying air in house and humid air in attic.

I am waiting until I have everything planned before I start any work

since I have to see the total cost, since if I cannot afford to do

it everything it needs for me to move back, might as well not do

anything at all and just sell it 'as is' and reveal that attic air

is getting down into house and attic needs to be sealed and let

someone else with a bigger pocketbook work on house and move on.

>

> Barb,

>

> Thank you for your apology, although I don't believe that it's

necessary.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Pat & Barb,

Thanks, Pat. Well stated!

Barb, I haven't had time to read your whole response but did get to

some of it over the weekend. I reiterate, that I wasn't picking on you,

or indicating that you in particular might be lawsuit happy.

Unfortunately, our society has become quite litigious, and we as

professionals must therefore exercise due prudence in our public

statements.

I'm sorry to hear that you spent money on services which proved to be

ineffective. Many of us are working on trying to raise the bar of

qualifications and performance for our industry professionals, due to

the fact that there are some contractors and consultants who simply

don't get it.

A suggestion for future situations may be for you to post the situation

that you need help with, and then ask if anyone on this discussion

board can help or recommend someone who can help by becoming

" officially " involved by your actually hiring them to perform a proper

assessment and make applicable recommendatons.

Just my thoughts.

Chuck Reaney CIEC, CIAQC, CIAQP

Good luck with your situation, Barb.

Barb and Chuck,

This Yahoo group forum is in the public domain. What we speak about

must be well thought out because, we as experts can find our written

thoughts and opinions coming back to us in court or arbitration

hearings. I found this out several years ago, and recently, another

environmental professional experienced the same. Meaning, the

attorney

for the opposing side may try to use our communications with you

against us for his case if he finds we have varying points of view on

the same subject.

The advice we provide may be helpful to you, but since we are not at

your property and we do not have first-hand knowledge of your

situation, the direction we provide anyone with should be questioned

before applying it. What may be helpful in one situation may not be a

realistic approach to problem recognition and solving in the next

project.

As experts, we carry Errors and Omissions insurance for protecting our

self from frivolous lawsuits. Anything we say or do professionally

may try to come back to haunt us years later.

Moffett

From: iequality

[mailto:iequality ] On

Behalf Of barb1283 Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 9:07 AM To:

iequality Subject: Re: Sealing my house

interior // windows at fault?

Hi Chuck,

Thanks for your post to me explaining your position and also for

earlier statement that you did not mean to be referring to me only.

Since group is set up and states on front page that it is a group for

indoor air professionals to discuss indoor air quality issues, and

does not invite questions from the public, I don't see how someone

like myself who is not an indoor air quality person could sue someone

here for advice given. To me that would be like coming to a party you

were not invited to and then suing the host for choking on their food,

or suing someone you sat next to on a bus that you casually asked

advice from. I think it would be easier for you all to sue each other.

However I will say though I did say upon asking to join that I was not

an indoor professional but just wanted to read and that is what I did

first year I was here and then I did venture some questions since I

noticed some non pros posting on occasion, but anyway... I posted

more

frequently starting late last summer, since I had to move out of my

house (Sept 7th) and into an extended stay motel and now an

apartment

as I realized house was definately making me feel sick, so was

desperate to figure it out. I'm not looking for others to figure it

out though.

Regarding sueing, if the group put a link somewhere offering free

advise to the public, perhaps that could happen, but in the format of

this group, I don't see how someone could sue anyone here.

I didn't apologize for posting based on what you said but apologized

to people who joined because they wanted to talk to other indoor air

professionals and may have been tired of deleting through my posts,

since I looked back over the recent postings and saw my name all over

the place and decided I had posted too much.

I don't expect anyone here to diagnose my house problems without a

house visit, but rather I am trying to get information to help me to

figure out as much as I can myself as to what may be wrong. So I

guess

I will have to sue myself for coming to the wrong conclusions based on

what I read.

I have posted here that I have hired professional indoor air quality

people before, 2005. In fact thought it was in very good condition.

Based on that good grade, I stayed in house longer until last summer

when I couldn't deny that despite good reports, house was making me

sick. I'm trying to figure it out myself.

You might think that sounds impossible that I might figure it out

myself, but I called in about a dozen professionals for advice on how

to repair foundation problem in 1998 and wasted alot of money

following their advice and paying for their work. Finally read up on

it myself, became my own contractor, hired someone I paid for by the

hour, told him exactly what I wanted done and problem was finally

solved by *me* after thousands of dollars wasted on people who put

their name out there as experts in foundation water problems. What

they did at my house that didn't work, might have worked on another

house but I don't rely totally on someone else's advise anymore no

matter how credentialed they are. I decided I'm ultimately responsible

to figure out if solution proposed is reasonable to the extend that is

possible, instead of complaining that other people didn't have the

right answer. I don't have to figure it out by asking questions here

though. I can google, or check out books on indoor air quality. Those

things I am doing also.

My question on using smoke in attic was not to revisit issue of

whether attic air may be getting down into my house. I know it is.

There is no doubt. It was to determine if there are tests I could do

to determine if chimney is a source of air traveling since I have

gotten quotes on sealing chimney up and solutions to that possible

'hole' in house is very expensive to fix, $4k to rebuilt and $2k to

line it which is current code on new chimneys from one bidder, $5k

just for liner alone from another bidder who says chimney size needs

custom size liner, etc. Also asked question since I find the air

movement in house topic interesting and was just wondering.

Recent experience has shown me that it just isn't heat that send attic

air down into my house but also moisture levels. Now that outside

humidity levels are going up, I've gone home on cool 75 degree days

expecting air in house to smell fine, only to discover that it that it

smells worse than it did on a 90 degree dry day a few weeks ago. I

assume from this, that moist air is heavier than dry air and that must

be an important factor also in air movement. Dehumidying air in house

and humid air in attic.

I am waiting until I have everything planned before I start any work

since I have to see the total cost, since if I cannot afford to do it

everything it needs for me to move back, might as well not do anything

at all and just sell it 'as is' and reveal that attic air is getting

down into house and attic needs to be sealed and let someone else

with

a bigger pocketbook work on house and move on.

> > Barb, > > Thank you for

your

apology, although I don't believe that it's necessary. > >

__________________________________________________

Alpha Environmental, Inc.

Indoor Air Quality & Environmental Consulting

624 W. Saint s Dr.

Media, PA 19063

Phone: Fax: Cell:

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Pat & Barb,

Thanks, Pat. Well stated!

Barb, I haven't had time to read your whole response but did get to

some of it over the weekend. I reiterate, that I wasn't picking on you,

or indicating that you in particular might be lawsuit happy.

Unfortunately, our society has become quite litigious, and we as

professionals must therefore exercise due prudence in our public

statements.

I'm sorry to hear that you spent money on services which proved to be

ineffective. Many of us are working on trying to raise the bar of

qualifications and performance for our industry professionals, due to

the fact that there are some contractors and consultants who simply

don't get it.

A suggestion for future situations may be for you to post the situation

that you need help with, and then ask if anyone on this discussion

board can help or recommend someone who can help by becoming

" officially " involved by your actually hiring them to perform a proper

assessment and make applicable recommendatons.

Just my thoughts.

Chuck Reaney CIEC, CIAQC, CIAQP

Good luck with your situation, Barb.

Barb and Chuck,

This Yahoo group forum is in the public domain. What we speak about

must be well thought out because, we as experts can find our written

thoughts and opinions coming back to us in court or arbitration

hearings. I found this out several years ago, and recently, another

environmental professional experienced the same. Meaning, the

attorney

for the opposing side may try to use our communications with you

against us for his case if he finds we have varying points of view on

the same subject.

The advice we provide may be helpful to you, but since we are not at

your property and we do not have first-hand knowledge of your

situation, the direction we provide anyone with should be questioned

before applying it. What may be helpful in one situation may not be a

realistic approach to problem recognition and solving in the next

project.

As experts, we carry Errors and Omissions insurance for protecting our

self from frivolous lawsuits. Anything we say or do professionally

may try to come back to haunt us years later.

Moffett

From: iequality

[mailto:iequality ] On

Behalf Of barb1283 Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 9:07 AM To:

iequality Subject: Re: Sealing my house

interior // windows at fault?

Hi Chuck,

Thanks for your post to me explaining your position and also for

earlier statement that you did not mean to be referring to me only.

Since group is set up and states on front page that it is a group for

indoor air professionals to discuss indoor air quality issues, and

does not invite questions from the public, I don't see how someone

like myself who is not an indoor air quality person could sue someone

here for advice given. To me that would be like coming to a party you

were not invited to and then suing the host for choking on their food,

or suing someone you sat next to on a bus that you casually asked

advice from. I think it would be easier for you all to sue each other.

However I will say though I did say upon asking to join that I was not

an indoor professional but just wanted to read and that is what I did

first year I was here and then I did venture some questions since I

noticed some non pros posting on occasion, but anyway... I posted

more

frequently starting late last summer, since I had to move out of my

house (Sept 7th) and into an extended stay motel and now an

apartment

as I realized house was definately making me feel sick, so was

desperate to figure it out. I'm not looking for others to figure it

out though.

Regarding sueing, if the group put a link somewhere offering free

advise to the public, perhaps that could happen, but in the format of

this group, I don't see how someone could sue anyone here.

I didn't apologize for posting based on what you said but apologized

to people who joined because they wanted to talk to other indoor air

professionals and may have been tired of deleting through my posts,

since I looked back over the recent postings and saw my name all over

the place and decided I had posted too much.

I don't expect anyone here to diagnose my house problems without a

house visit, but rather I am trying to get information to help me to

figure out as much as I can myself as to what may be wrong. So I

guess

I will have to sue myself for coming to the wrong conclusions based on

what I read.

I have posted here that I have hired professional indoor air quality

people before, 2005. In fact thought it was in very good condition.

Based on that good grade, I stayed in house longer until last summer

when I couldn't deny that despite good reports, house was making me

sick. I'm trying to figure it out myself.

You might think that sounds impossible that I might figure it out

myself, but I called in about a dozen professionals for advice on how

to repair foundation problem in 1998 and wasted alot of money

following their advice and paying for their work. Finally read up on

it myself, became my own contractor, hired someone I paid for by the

hour, told him exactly what I wanted done and problem was finally

solved by *me* after thousands of dollars wasted on people who put

their name out there as experts in foundation water problems. What

they did at my house that didn't work, might have worked on another

house but I don't rely totally on someone else's advise anymore no

matter how credentialed they are. I decided I'm ultimately responsible

to figure out if solution proposed is reasonable to the extend that is

possible, instead of complaining that other people didn't have the

right answer. I don't have to figure it out by asking questions here

though. I can google, or check out books on indoor air quality. Those

things I am doing also.

My question on using smoke in attic was not to revisit issue of

whether attic air may be getting down into my house. I know it is.

There is no doubt. It was to determine if there are tests I could do

to determine if chimney is a source of air traveling since I have

gotten quotes on sealing chimney up and solutions to that possible

'hole' in house is very expensive to fix, $4k to rebuilt and $2k to

line it which is current code on new chimneys from one bidder, $5k

just for liner alone from another bidder who says chimney size needs

custom size liner, etc. Also asked question since I find the air

movement in house topic interesting and was just wondering.

Recent experience has shown me that it just isn't heat that send attic

air down into my house but also moisture levels. Now that outside

humidity levels are going up, I've gone home on cool 75 degree days

expecting air in house to smell fine, only to discover that it that it

smells worse than it did on a 90 degree dry day a few weeks ago. I

assume from this, that moist air is heavier than dry air and that must

be an important factor also in air movement. Dehumidying air in house

and humid air in attic.

I am waiting until I have everything planned before I start any work

since I have to see the total cost, since if I cannot afford to do it

everything it needs for me to move back, might as well not do anything

at all and just sell it 'as is' and reveal that attic air is getting

down into house and attic needs to be sealed and let someone else

with

a bigger pocketbook work on house and move on.

> > Barb, > > Thank you for

your

apology, although I don't believe that it's necessary. > >

__________________________________________________

Alpha Environmental, Inc.

Indoor Air Quality & Environmental Consulting

624 W. Saint s Dr.

Media, PA 19063

Phone: Fax: Cell:

__________________________________________________