Re: Sealing my house interior // windows at fault?

[Guest guest]

The only way I can think of that warm air from the attic would be

drawn back into the conditioned space of the house is if the house

becomes negative in pressure with respect to the attic.

This could result from duct leakage to the outside on the supply side

that would cause the return side to suck more air out of the space

than is delivered to it. It could also result from excess exhaust

ventilation such as a monster kitchen range hood. Wind can

depressurize the structure under certain circumstances. That, by the

way, is one area where window leakage could factor in, but I do not

recommend starting with that.

Whatever the cause, the first step is to air seal the attic floor and

create a pressure boundary between the house and the attic. This

should be verified by testing with a blower door. Insist on pre- and

post-testing to confirm combustion safety for all your appliances.

Duct leakage testing can be done to determine whether the air handler

is affecting the pressure in the house with respect to the attic.

If there is a surplus of exhaust ventilation in the house, make up air

must be provided from a healthy outdoor source.

Do let us know how your problem is resolved.

>

> Attic fan is in and running and house smells better but attic smell is

> not entirely gone. I knew more work would be needed but I was hoping

> in this moderate heat of 85 it would be enough and only need the

> additional sealing for house to withstand hotter days but not the

> case. No air conditioning turned on yet and reasonably comfortable so

> it might have helped there.

>

> I'm beginning to believe this old 1924 house was just not built to be

> vented. I added the vents to the non-vented attic about 6-7 years ago

> and may have created more problems than I solved. Well actually

> didn't have a proble. Roofer working on roof suggested I should have

> vents and so I added them at his suggestion to aid in cooling house.

> I don't remember back then having this odor problem. I think house

> interiors are too opened up to take the ventilation and house all the

> air has fouled the attic..? However it's TOO LATE NOW to change that!

>

> Looking over my house still trying to figure out where all the attic

> air is getting down into house. I sealed off with plastic an area

> that plaster was off of a ceiling. I thinking now it is due to all

> the old double hung windows that have rope and pulley style mechanics

> to open and shut because the rope system runs through a hole in window

> frame and frame is open to interior walls. Since house was built

> where there is a view, it is almost wall to wall windows. I counted

> 31 windows on the two floors, not counting 5 in basement and 2 in

> garage since they are set in concrete.

>

> Is this a possible area of air leakage in house from attic down into

> house, through old double hung rope-and-pulley windows??

> I found a company about an hour and half from here that does nothing

> but air sealing. He said he could seal top of walls off in attic so

> air doesn't get down into walls and seal the electrical fixtures,

> etc. He doesn't understand the concept of attic air getting down into

> house which surprises me but as long as he knows how to do the

> sealing, I guess it doesn't matter.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Absolutehomeinspection,

Apparently just air conditioning the home creates a negative

pressure in house that can draw air down.

I may turn the air handler off since you mention that. I want to

have nothing drawing air downstairs and I can see that perhaps

movement of air by air handler in basement COULD conceivably creat

SOME downward pull on air. One day I turned it off to change filter

and forgot to turn it back on and it did seem air smelled a 'tad'

better but air handler is not dirty so it might be that is does

cause a little downward pull on air in house. I have it usually set

to constantly on, so thanks for that idea to try. I am also an

going to air condition house to the minimum right now, and

dehumidify instead. I have two dehumidifiers, one in basement, one

on first floor. I will set air conditioner to go a minimum amount

because I need it to help dehumidify. This is what I am doing until

I can get attic air sealed which plans are being now.

Attic power vent is helping. Every day house smells better so I

think I'm on the right track with it being attic air that is fouling

house air in hottest months of summer, which we are having early

this year...hotter...global warming?? Dry, thank goodness for

comfort but produce will be higher, heh?

Anyway, thanks for suggestions. Things seem to be going in the

right direction now. Yes, sure I will keep you posted.

I will have air direction/leakage etc checked after some work is

done. Too soon now since I have some obvious big air passage

leaks.

>

> The only way I can think of that warm air from the attic would be

> drawn back into the conditioned space of the house is if the house

> becomes negative in pressure with respect to the attic.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Un-named person

As I have explained several times in prior posts, whenever the indoor air is cooler than the outdoor air the stack effect reverses and air moves into the attic from outside then down into the house if leakage paths exist. Early each morning this may happen in hot weather without air conditioning even being on. When the air conditioner is running this is usually the case.

Jim H. White SSC

Re: Sealing my house interior // windows at fault?

The only way I can think of that warm air from the attic would bedrawn back into the conditioned space of the house is if the housebecomes negative in pressure with respect to the attic. This could result from duct leakage to the outside on the supply sidethat would cause the return side to suck more air out of the spacethan is delivered to it. It could also result from excess exhaustventilation such as a monster kitchen range hood. Wind candepressurize the structure under certain circumstances. That, by theway, is one area where window leakage could factor in, but I do notrecommend starting with that.Whatever the cause, the first step is to air seal the attic floor andcreate a pressure boundary between the house and the attic. Thisshould be verified by testing with a blower door. Insist on pre- andpost-testing to confirm combustion safety for all your appliances. Duct leakage testing can be done to determine whether the air handleris affecting the pressure in the house with respect to the attic. If there is a surplus of exhaust ventilation in the house, make up airmust be provided from a healthy outdoor source. Do let us know how your problem is resolved.>> Attic fan is in and running and house smells better but attic smell is > not entirely gone. I knew more work would be needed but I was hoping > in this moderate heat of 85 it would be enough and only need the > additional sealing for house to withstand hotter days but not the > case. No air conditioning turned on yet and reasonably comfortable so > it might have helped there. > > I'm beginning to believe this old 1924 house was just not built to be > vented. I added the vents to the non-vented attic about 6-7 years ago > and may have created more problems than I solved. Well actually > didn't have a proble. Roofer working on roof suggested I should have > vents and so I added them at his suggestion to aid in cooling house. > I don't remember back then having this odor problem. I think house > interiors are too opened up to take the ventilation and house all the > air has fouled the attic..? However it's TOO LATE NOW to change that!> > Looking over my house still trying to figure out where all the attic > air is getting down into house. I sealed off with plastic an area > that plaster was off of a ceiling. I thinking now it is due to all > the old double hung windows that have rope and pulley style mechanics > to open and shut because the rope system runs through a hole in window > frame and frame is open to interior walls. Since house was built > where there is a view, it is almost wall to wall windows. I counted > 31 windows on the two floors, not counting 5 in basement and 2 in > garage since they are set in concrete. > > Is this a possible area of air leakage in house from attic down into > house, through old double hung rope-and-pulley windows?? > I found a company about an hour and half from here that does nothing > but air sealing. He said he could seal top of walls off in attic so > air doesn't get down into walls and seal the electrical fixtures, > etc. He doesn't understand the concept of attic air getting down into > house which surprises me but as long as he knows how to do the > sealing, I guess it doesn't matter.>

[Guest guest]

Some place else I was reading comment by someone who just had a new

roof put on their home and she said 'you wouldn't believe how much

better the house smells now that our new roof was put on'. It's such

a mystery to people. In my brief exposure to indoor air quality

information, I think this is number one misunderstood fact and it

affects so many things.

>

> Un-named person

> As I have explained several times in prior posts, whenever the

indoor air is cooler than the outdoor air the stack effect reverses

and air moves into the attic from outside then down into the house if

leakage paths exist. Early each morning this may happen in hot weather

without air conditioning even being on. When the air conditioner is

running this is usually the case.

> Jim H. White SSC

>

[Guest guest]

Barb,

A new roof can also cause

microbial problems in the house. As a general contractor and an environmental

professional specializing in construction defect claims let me voice my opinion

on this issue: When you remove the roof the roofing contractor does not take

into consideration the tens of years of dust and spores that fall into the

attic or void. This mass accumulation of fallout debris is left in the attic

and it is not removed by the roofer. Buildings having attic HVAC systems suck

in the debris and send it throughout the house.

Barb, if you are going to

reroof, place plastic sheeting in the attic to where the fallout can be easily vacuumed

up and the plastic removed.

This also a good time to inspect

the attic insulation. If the blown or rolled insulation is excessively dirty, water

stained, compacted or missing, now may be the time to carefully remove it and

replace it with new insulation.

Moffett

From:

iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of barb1283

Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 2:56 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: Sealing my house interior // windows at fault?

Some place else I was reading comment by

someone who just had a new

roof put on their home and she said 'you wouldn't believe how much

better the house smells now that our new roof was put on'. It's such

a mystery to people. In my brief exposure to indoor air quality

information, I think this is number one misunderstood fact and it

affects so many things.

>

> Un-named person

> As I have explained several times in prior posts, whenever the

indoor air is cooler than the outdoor air the stack effect reverses

and air moves into the attic from outside then down into the house if

leakage paths exist. Early each morning this may happen in hot weather

without air conditioning even being on. When the air conditioner is

running this is usually the case.

> Jim H. White SSC

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Pat, thanks for your suggestions. I don't think I need a new

roof. I hope not. I have the roof inspected every year when gutters

are cleaned. However I am having insulation removed and attic

vaccuumed and then an air sealing professional is going to seal attic

off from rest of house by sealing the tops of all walls and sealing

around fixtures that come into attic and then insulation put in. I

really think this will solve problems with air. I may do a couple

more tests to make sure that smell in house is due to attic but think

this is the case. The attic fan has eliminated most of the odor

already.

I wonder why people don't put reflective roofs on to keep house cool.

I don't think it would hurt anything in winter and would make it much

easier to keep attic cool.

>

> Barb,

>

> A new roof can also cause microbial problems in the house. As a

general

>

[Guest guest]

Had an " interesting " experience in my family's sick house relevant to

this discussion. Home is sprawling 3000 sq ft custom in Sacramento

area, single HVAC system with 3 returns and 18 or so supplies.

Primarily 1 story with widely varying ceiling heights, only upstairs

is 3 rooms over the garage. Roof pitched high so the unfinished

attic is huge. HVAC and essentially all of the ductwork in that

attic space.

As originally built there were approx 18 sq in of gap in the box over

one of the three returns, effectively drawing a great deal of attic

air into the house. As one of many steps trying to get a handle on

what it was in that house causing us health problems, we had the

ductwork replaced and sealed, eliminating the ersatz air inlet. When

the HVAC fan was turned back on, the return in the bedroom wing

hallway depressurized the hallway, drawing sub-slab air through a

crack or cracks under the linen cabinetry in the hallway. With the

HVAC running, within seconds of walking into that hallway I would

have a series of symptoms normally associated with occupational

toxics exposure. But only after we had everything sealed.

As a short term fix, we relocated that return into the nearby family

room. That stopped the problem in the hallway, at least as far as we

could detect.

Now notice the experiment I describe here. We have an overly well

sealed house, I relocate one of three returns, and the contaminants

being drawn in (meaning air infiltration with an extremely well

sealed HVAC running) change significantly.

There's much more to tell (we had a problem with stuff coming down

through the recessed lighting from the attic, and sealed those too),

but that experiment was enough to prove to me for all time that the

approximations useful in managing energy loss are not useful in

managing environmental contaminants entering a structure.

Steve Chalmers

stevec@...

> >

> > Attic fan is in and running and house smells better but attic

smell is

> > not entirely gone. I knew more work would be needed but I was

hoping

> > in this moderate heat of 85 it would be enough and only need the

> > additional sealing for house to withstand hotter days but not the

> > case. No air conditioning turned on yet and reasonably

comfortable so

> > it might have helped there.

> >

> > I'm beginning to believe this old 1924 house was just not built

to be

> > vented. I added the vents to the non-vented attic about 6-7

years ago

> > and may have created more problems than I solved. Well actually

> > didn't have a proble. Roofer working on roof suggested I should

have

> > vents and so I added them at his suggestion to aid in cooling

house.

> > I don't remember back then having this odor problem. I think

house

> > interiors are too opened up to take the ventilation and house all

the

> > air has fouled the attic..? However it's TOO LATE NOW to change

that!

> >

> > Looking over my house still trying to figure out where all the

attic

> > air is getting down into house. I sealed off with plastic an

area

> > that plaster was off of a ceiling. I thinking now it is due to

all

> > the old double hung windows that have rope and pulley style

mechanics

> > to open and shut because the rope system runs through a hole in

window

> > frame and frame is open to interior walls. Since house was built

> > where there is a view, it is almost wall to wall windows. I

counted

> > 31 windows on the two floors, not counting 5 in basement and 2 in

> > garage since they are set in concrete.

> >

> > Is this a possible area of air leakage in house from attic down

into

> > house, through old double hung rope-and-pulley windows??

> > I found a company about an hour and half from here that does

nothing

> > but air sealing. He said he could seal top of walls off in attic

so

> > air doesn't get down into walls and seal the electrical fixtures,

> > etc. He doesn't understand the concept of attic air getting down

into

> > house which surprises me but as long as he knows how to do the

> > sealing, I guess it doesn't matter.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Had an " interesting " experience in my family's sick house relevant to

this discussion. Home is sprawling 3000 sq ft custom in Sacramento

area, single HVAC system with 3 returns and 18 or so supplies.

Primarily 1 story with widely varying ceiling heights, only upstairs

is 3 rooms over the garage. Roof pitched high so the unfinished

attic is huge. HVAC and essentially all of the ductwork in that

attic space.

As originally built there were approx 18 sq in of gap in the box over

one of the three returns, effectively drawing a great deal of attic

air into the house. As one of many steps trying to get a handle on

what it was in that house causing us health problems, we had the

ductwork replaced and sealed, eliminating the ersatz air inlet. When

the HVAC fan was turned back on, the return in the bedroom wing

hallway depressurized the hallway, drawing sub-slab air through a

crack or cracks under the linen cabinetry in the hallway. With the

HVAC running, within seconds of walking into that hallway I would

have a series of symptoms normally associated with occupational

toxics exposure. But only after we had everything sealed.

As a short term fix, we relocated that return into the nearby family

room. That stopped the problem in the hallway, at least as far as we

could detect.

Now notice the experiment I describe here. We have an overly well

sealed house, I relocate one of three returns, and the contaminants

being drawn in (meaning air infiltration with an extremely well

sealed HVAC running) change significantly.

There's much more to tell (we had a problem with stuff coming down

through the recessed lighting from the attic, and sealed those too),

but that experiment was enough to prove to me for all time that the

approximations useful in managing energy loss are not useful in

managing environmental contaminants entering a structure.

Steve Chalmers

stevec@...

> >

> > Attic fan is in and running and house smells better but attic

smell is

> > not entirely gone. I knew more work would be needed but I was

hoping

> > in this moderate heat of 85 it would be enough and only need the

> > additional sealing for house to withstand hotter days but not the

> > case. No air conditioning turned on yet and reasonably

comfortable so

> > it might have helped there.

> >

> > I'm beginning to believe this old 1924 house was just not built

to be

> > vented. I added the vents to the non-vented attic about 6-7

years ago

> > and may have created more problems than I solved. Well actually

> > didn't have a proble. Roofer working on roof suggested I should

have

> > vents and so I added them at his suggestion to aid in cooling

house.

> > I don't remember back then having this odor problem. I think

house

> > interiors are too opened up to take the ventilation and house all

the

> > air has fouled the attic..? However it's TOO LATE NOW to change

that!

> >

> > Looking over my house still trying to figure out where all the

attic

> > air is getting down into house. I sealed off with plastic an

area

> > that plaster was off of a ceiling. I thinking now it is due to

all

> > the old double hung windows that have rope and pulley style

mechanics

> > to open and shut because the rope system runs through a hole in

window

> > frame and frame is open to interior walls. Since house was built

> > where there is a view, it is almost wall to wall windows. I

counted

> > 31 windows on the two floors, not counting 5 in basement and 2 in

> > garage since they are set in concrete.

> >

> > Is this a possible area of air leakage in house from attic down

into

> > house, through old double hung rope-and-pulley windows??

> > I found a company about an hour and half from here that does

nothing

> > but air sealing. He said he could seal top of walls off in attic

so

> > air doesn't get down into walls and seal the electrical fixtures,

> > etc. He doesn't understand the concept of attic air getting down

into

> > house which surprises me but as long as he knows how to do the

> > sealing, I guess it doesn't matter.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Barbara,

Be aware that cross-ventilation of the house with windows open can result in lowering the pressure in the house. It's called the "venturi effect", whereby a higher velocity of air translates into a lower pressure. This can cause air from the attic or wall cavities (which may have a similar "attic smell") to be drawn into the occupied space. This might be part of what is going on now with the presence of the "attic odor" since you said you haven't turned on the AC yet.

Steve Temes

Looking over my house still trying to figure out where all the attic

air is getting down into house. I sealed off with plastic an area

that plaster was off of a ceiling. I thinking now it is due to all

the old double hung windows that have rope and pulley style mechanics

to open and shut because the rope system runs through a hole in window

frame and frame is open to interior walls. Since house was built

where there is a view, it is almost wall to wall windows. I counted

31 windows on the two floors, not counting 5 in basement and 2 in

garage since they are set in concrete.

Is this a possible area of air leakage in house from attic down into

house, through old double hung rope-and-pulley windows??

[Guest guest]

Barbara,

Be aware that cross-ventilation of the house with windows open can result in lowering the pressure in the house. It's called the "venturi effect", whereby a higher velocity of air translates into a lower pressure. This can cause air from the attic or wall cavities (which may have a similar "attic smell") to be drawn into the occupied space. This might be part of what is going on now with the presence of the "attic odor" since you said you haven't turned on the AC yet.

Steve Temes

Looking over my house still trying to figure out where all the attic

air is getting down into house. I sealed off with plastic an area

that plaster was off of a ceiling. I thinking now it is due to all

the old double hung windows that have rope and pulley style mechanics

to open and shut because the rope system runs through a hole in window

frame and frame is open to interior walls. Since house was built

where there is a view, it is almost wall to wall windows. I counted

31 windows on the two floors, not counting 5 in basement and 2 in

garage since they are set in concrete.

Is this a possible area of air leakage in house from attic down into

house, through old double hung rope-and-pulley windows??

[Guest guest]

Barb,

I am always concerned about

contractors removing attic insulation in an occupied house. If you have an

attic exhaust, ensure it is on during their removal of the insulation. If you

attic access is in a hallway or bedroom, seal-off this area with plastic

containment similar to what we do for mold remediation. There are three types

of attic insulation removal which the first two are for loose or blown-in

insulation.

·

Removal of blown-in insulation by a vacuum truck and a large

hose that goes to the attic;

·

Removal of blown-in insulation by a portable gas-fired unit that

sits in your front or back yard. It has a large capture bag attached to collect

the lose insulation; and

·

Removal of batt insulation. The batts will be rolled up

and placed in plastic bags, taken out of the attic and carried out the house.

No matter what type of

insulation removal system you use, ensure afterwards the attic is HEPA vacuumed

including the bottom-side of the ceiling and framing.

·

If there is ventilation ducting and it is old, now is the time

to replace the ducting. (Flex ducting from Home Depot or Lowes is rather

inexpensive.) If the ventilation ducting is possibly asbestos, the ducting will

need to be tested for (regulated amounts of asbestos containing materials). If

it is confirmed to be asbestos the ducting will need to be removed by licensed

professionals.

·

If the HVAC system is in the attic plastic wrap it first before

the insulation removal. After the new insulation is installed unwrap the

plastic and have the entire system services.

As a point of caution, if you

have a gas-fired HVAC attic mounted system, ensure the main gas valve is off

until the insulation is removed and replaced and the HVAC system is serviced.

Finally, as the workers: “When

you remove attic insulation and you see signs of water staining or mold growth

on the ceiling plaster or drywall, it may be necessary to individually treat

these areas or replace damaged materials before reinstalling new insulation.

Good luck with this project,

Moffett

From:

iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of barb1283

Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 6:54 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: Sealing my house interior // windows at fault?

Hi Pat, thanks for your suggestions. I don't

think I need a new

roof. I hope not. I have the roof inspected every year when gutters

are cleaned. However I am having insulation removed and attic

vaccuumed and then an air sealing professional is going to seal attic

off from rest of house by sealing the tops of all walls and sealing

around fixtures that come into attic and then insulation put in. I

really think this will solve problems with air. I may do a couple

more tests to make sure that smell in house is due to attic but think

this is the case. The attic fan has eliminated most of the odor

already.

I wonder why people don't put reflective roofs on to keep house cool.

I don't think it would hurt anything in winter and would make it much

easier to keep attic cool.

>

> Barb,

>

> A new roof can also cause microbial problems in the house. As a

general

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Steve. Thanks. I am cross ventilating in the apartment I am

renting until I figure out what is wrong with my house but not cross

ventilation in the house. I put an attic fan in though and it seems

to be helping to get rid of the odor in house. I don't run a/c much

since I don't like to be " refrigerated " but I do turn it on when

humidity gets high. We are having a drought here so humidity is

still okay and I set a/c to 87 I think.

I believe tops of walls in house are totally open to attic, that

attic is not sealed at all in any way off from house frame. I don't

think it was built to be vented and that adding vents have added all

this air movement over the last few years that it wasn't built to

take. If I had to do over I would have left it alone or added floor

up there and insulated under the roof, finished it off.

I think if you add vents to attics in these very old houses, you

need to seal attic off from house. That was never done and I think

doing that will help.

It makes sense to me that this is problem since in *wintertime* I

have unusually 'sweaty' windows on second floor only and finally had

to resort to opening double hung windows and just having the storm

windows protect us from the cold air and let circulating air keep

the windows from sweating. However it looked odd from

outside...like all my windows were open all winter. A neighbor

asked me about it. I think this was caused by warm air in house

being attracted to windows as a quick way up into the attic in order

to escape house via the new vents...a place for the warm air to get

out of house...through the loosely put together windows (they wiggle

in their frame and rope pulleys move through a hole in frame). It

had to get REALLY really cold for any window on first floor to get

frosty but happened on occasion but it was almost all the second

story windows. House was not ventilated at all before a few years

ago, maybe it's been 4 or more, time flies.

Putting plastic sheeting over the window solved the sweating

problem. I did that to windows later in the winter. I don't see

anyone else's windows open in winter and some of the homes here

still have rope and pulley windows. I may have put too many soffit

vents in. I do love fresh air and " airing " things out always has

appealed to me. I remember roofer saying I had enough vents at a

lower number than we agreed on finally. I need to stop making these

decisions without investigating them first. I didn't know how

tricky these air movement things are.

ANYWAY, now I definately have AIR MOVEMENT with power vent and all

so there is no going back now. I am hoping that sealing attic off

will not only solve problem of house smelling like attic in very hot

weather, but ALSO solve mystery of sweaty upstairs windows in

winter. This sweating incidentally was without me humidifying *at

all* since I developed dust mite and other allergies, I stopped

humidifying in winter and typically humidity is around 30% or less

so windows were not sweating due to having humidifier set too high.

Oh well, I guess eventally I will figure this out. I think I am on

the verge of solving this. I just hope new problems don't crop up.

It's interesting but I would like to " move on " to other things,

besides repairing my house!

>

> Barbara,

>

> Be aware that cross-ventilation of the house with windows open can

result in

> lowering

[Guest guest]

Dear Pat,

It was so nice of you to spell out the steps for me.

Out of a preponderance of caution, since I have been so sick and

having such trouble with house, I have gotten bid from a mold,

asbestos and lead removal company. $4k to remove insulation under

containment, hepa vacuum inside of attic and if any mold found,

treat it with *Shockwave* an ammonium chloride cleaner, then his

proposal to spray ENTIRE attic with *Aftershock*, an antimicrobial

paint used to encapsulate area that was previously moldy I guess.

Product:

<http://www.fiberlock.com/gr/mrp.htm>

Everything is okay with me but this last step. I don't like the

idea of painting the entire attic with Aftershock. For one thing,

I'm afraid it will make an attic that does not look moldy (but may

have some mold someplace...don't know) like it at one time had a

very big mold problem. Other thing I don't like about last step is

that when attic gets hot, like right afterwards, I figure there will

be off gassing of this antimicrobial paint that I will be breathing

in if attic isn't PERFECTLY sealed and I am concerned about that.

I think treating any areas where mold is found with this

encapsulating product would be sufficient. He advised against that

but said he would do it, if I wanted to.

A friend who does construction work and used to 'balancing on

buildings' has offered to take insulation out in garbage bags with

protective gear on and am considering that offer. We figure he

could do a couple of 'rows' at a time in early am hours when attic

is cool. Just enough that I can put to the curb for garbage pick

up, then have the above company in to hepa vacuum and check for

mold. I'm leaning toward this. I DO have an attic fan, just

recently added.

I have blown in rock wool insulation.

Reason to have it removed is primarily so I can do a thorough

sealing job but also figure getting the old dirty insulation may

help if *some* air still finds it's way into the house. I feel

perfectly okay in house in the wintertime.

Thanks again!

>

> Barb,

>

> I am always concerned about contractors removing attic insulation

in an

>

[Guest guest]

....also I will not be at home. I am living in a temporary apt until

problem of smelly summertime air is solved. Air handler is in

basement and I will be having house cleaned well afterwards.

>

> Barb,>

> I am always concerned about contractors removing attic insulation in

an

> occupied house.

[Guest guest]

I figure if I let friend take insulation out smaller amounts at a time

and skipped the whole attic spraying, I could probably knock about

1500 off of price or more since they are figuring in price bring a

dumpster to throw insulation into and then having to dispose of that,

or renting one of those trucks to take insulation out.

My only hesitation is concerned about his health. I've warned him

about rock wool would be dangerous to breath in and could come upon

mold but he says he will wear the protective gear. Maybe I feel this

way because I feel sick <<so easily>> by bad air. Maybe being

healthy, it is not dangerous for him with protective gear too..?

>

> Barb,

>

> I am always concerned about contractors removing attic insulation

[Guest guest]

Barb,

The painting of attic sheathing with Aftershock is not the thing to do. For one, if there is/was a mold problem, the sheathing is most likely damaged (depending on amount of mold). Second, if the proper repairs and retrofits are made, there will be NO NEED for an encapsulant. The best way to address your concerns is to spend the little extra money and do things right. The encapsulants, etc. are simply band-aids.

From what I have heard you saying, the first problem you should be concerned with is where the excess moisture in your home is coming from. Condensation on windows has only two options to correct, first...reduce the humidity levels or second, increase surface temperature. More ventilation in the attic will not change that fact.

If the home is properly sealed and kept very slightly positive WRT the attic, the is no possibility of air moving from attic to house. As for removing existing insulation? Is there a reason for removing it? It can be moved to seal critical areas. Removing may may create more air quality problems than is corrects.

A few questions. 1.) are the walls of the home insulated? 2.) what type of heating system is in the home? 3.) has the system (if forced air) ever been balanced? What are the temperature and relative humidity levels in the home? Has anyone ever measured them over a period of time? Has anyone ever performed any pressure diagnostics on the home?

Finally, NEVER hire a remediation contractor until someone with the proper level of experience has diagnosed what the real problems are. The remediation contractor typically has a bias when evaluating the problem.

Al Tibbs, CIEC, CIAQT, CIAQM

C.L.I. Group, LLC

Cleveland, OH

[Guest guest]

Barb,

The painting of attic sheathing with Aftershock is not the thing to do. For one, if there is/was a mold problem, the sheathing is most likely damaged (depending on amount of mold). Second, if the proper repairs and retrofits are made, there will be NO NEED for an encapsulant. The best way to address your concerns is to spend the little extra money and do things right. The encapsulants, etc. are simply band-aids.

From what I have heard you saying, the first problem you should be concerned with is where the excess moisture in your home is coming from. Condensation on windows has only two options to correct, first...reduce the humidity levels or second, increase surface temperature. More ventilation in the attic will not change that fact.

If the home is properly sealed and kept very slightly positive WRT the attic, the is no possibility of air moving from attic to house. As for removing existing insulation? Is there a reason for removing it? It can be moved to seal critical areas. Removing may may create more air quality problems than is corrects.

A few questions. 1.) are the walls of the home insulated? 2.) what type of heating system is in the home? 3.) has the system (if forced air) ever been balanced? What are the temperature and relative humidity levels in the home? Has anyone ever measured them over a period of time? Has anyone ever performed any pressure diagnostics on the home?

Finally, NEVER hire a remediation contractor until someone with the proper level of experience has diagnosed what the real problems are. The remediation contractor typically has a bias when evaluating the problem.

Al Tibbs, CIEC, CIAQT, CIAQM

C.L.I. Group, LLC

Cleveland, OH

[Guest guest]

Remediator said attic seemed to be in good condition but there is one

beam with what looks like dried up old mold on one side...I guess that

could get active again in high humidity. I do feel that since mold

can get into the poroused wood surface, encapsulating it makes sense

if it is a piece that cannot be replaced without redoing the entire

roof, side small amount on sheathing for example.

Rest of wood from casual look I had looks perfectly clean. You can

see the wood grain of it clearly which seems pretty good for such an

old attic, and so encapsulating all wood would seem to be

unnecessary.

>

> Barb,

>

> The painting of attic sheathing with Aftershock is not the thing to

do. For one, if there is/was a mold problem, the sheathing is

[Guest guest]

Remediator said attic seemed to be in good condition but there is one

beam with what looks like dried up old mold on one side...I guess that

could get active again in high humidity. I do feel that since mold

can get into the poroused wood surface, encapsulating it makes sense

if it is a piece that cannot be replaced without redoing the entire

roof, side small amount on sheathing for example.

Rest of wood from casual look I had looks perfectly clean. You can

see the wood grain of it clearly which seems pretty good for such an

old attic, and so encapsulating all wood would seem to be

unnecessary.

>

> Barb,

>

> The painting of attic sheathing with Aftershock is not the thing to

do. For one, if there is/was a mold problem, the sheathing is

[Guest guest]

Hello Jim,

Will this happen in a properly vented attic? I can see it when the wind is blowing hard enough, but not all that often. Is the AC / cool house neg. pres. to the attic if the attic is vented?

Thanks for all the good info you provide.

Bradley HarrSr. Environmental Scientist

-----Original Message-----From: iequality [mailto:iequality ]On Behalf Of Jim H. WhiteSent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 12:54 PMTo: iequality Subject: Re: Re: Sealing my house interior // windows at fault?

Un-named person

As I have explained several times in prior posts, whenever the indoor air is cooler than the outdoor air the stack effect reverses and air moves into the attic from outside then down into the house if leakage paths exist. Early each morning this may happen in hot weather without air conditioning even being on. When the air conditioner is running this is usually the case.

Jim H. White SSC

Re: Sealing my house interior // windows at fault?

The only way I can think of that warm air from the attic would bedrawn back into the conditioned space of the house is if the housebecomes negative in pressure with respect to the attic. This could result from duct leakage to the outside on the supply sidethat would cause the return side to suck more air out of the spacethan is delivered to it. It could also result from excess exhaustventilation such as a monster kitchen range hood. Wind candepressurize the structure under certain circumstances. That, by theway, is one area where window leakage could factor in, but I do notrecommend starting with that.Whatever the cause, the first step is to air seal the attic floor andcreate a pressure boundary between the house and the attic. Thisshould be verified by testing with a blower door. Insist on pre- andpost-testing to confirm combustion safety for all your appliances. Duct leakage testing can be done to determine whether the air handleris affecting the pressure in the house with respect to the attic. If there is a surplus of exhaust ventilation in the house, make up airmust be provided from a healthy outdoor source. Do let us know how your problem is resolved.>> Attic fan is in and running and house smells better but attic smell is > not entirely gone. I knew more work would be needed but I was hoping > in this moderate heat of 85 it would be enough and only need the > additional sealing for house to withstand hotter days but not the > case. No air conditioning turned on yet and reasonably comfortable so > it might have helped there. > > I'm beginning to believe this old 1924 house was just not built to be > vented. I added the vents to the non-vented attic about 6-7 years ago > and may have created more problems than I solved. Well actually > didn't have a proble. Roofer working on roof suggested I should have > vents and so I added them at his suggestion to aid in cooling house. > I don't remember back then having this odor problem. I think house > interiors are too opened up to take the ventilation and house all the > air has fouled the attic..? However it's TOO LATE NOW to change that!> > Looking over my house still trying to figure out where all the attic > air is getting down into house. I sealed off with plastic an area > that plaster was off of a ceiling. I thinking now it is due to all > the old double hung windows that have rope and pulley style mechanics > to open and shut because the rope system runs through a hole in window > frame and frame is open to interior walls. Since house was built > where there is a view, it is almost wall to wall windows. I counted > 31 windows on the two floors, not counting 5 in basement and 2 in > garage since they are set in concrete. > > Is this a possible area of air leakage in house from attic down into > house, through old double hung rope-and-pulley windows?? > I found a company about an hour and half from here that does nothing > but air sealing. He said he could seal top of walls off in attic so > air doesn't get down into walls and seal the electrical fixtures, > etc. He doesn't understand the concept of attic air getting down into > house which surprises me but as long as he knows how to do the > sealing, I guess it doesn't matter.>

[Guest guest]

Hello Jim,

Will this happen in a properly vented attic? I can see it when the wind is blowing hard enough, but not all that often. Is the AC / cool house neg. pres. to the attic if the attic is vented?

Thanks for all the good info you provide.

Bradley HarrSr. Environmental Scientist

-----Original Message-----From: iequality [mailto:iequality ]On Behalf Of Jim H. WhiteSent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 12:54 PMTo: iequality Subject: Re: Re: Sealing my house interior // windows at fault?

Un-named person

As I have explained several times in prior posts, whenever the indoor air is cooler than the outdoor air the stack effect reverses and air moves into the attic from outside then down into the house if leakage paths exist. Early each morning this may happen in hot weather without air conditioning even being on. When the air conditioner is running this is usually the case.

Jim H. White SSC

Re: Sealing my house interior // windows at fault?

The only way I can think of that warm air from the attic would bedrawn back into the conditioned space of the house is if the housebecomes negative in pressure with respect to the attic. This could result from duct leakage to the outside on the supply sidethat would cause the return side to suck more air out of the spacethan is delivered to it. It could also result from excess exhaustventilation such as a monster kitchen range hood. Wind candepressurize the structure under certain circumstances. That, by theway, is one area where window leakage could factor in, but I do notrecommend starting with that.Whatever the cause, the first step is to air seal the attic floor andcreate a pressure boundary between the house and the attic. Thisshould be verified by testing with a blower door. Insist on pre- andpost-testing to confirm combustion safety for all your appliances. Duct leakage testing can be done to determine whether the air handleris affecting the pressure in the house with respect to the attic. If there is a surplus of exhaust ventilation in the house, make up airmust be provided from a healthy outdoor source. Do let us know how your problem is resolved.>> Attic fan is in and running and house smells better but attic smell is > not entirely gone. I knew more work would be needed but I was hoping > in this moderate heat of 85 it would be enough and only need the > additional sealing for house to withstand hotter days but not the > case. No air conditioning turned on yet and reasonably comfortable so > it might have helped there. > > I'm beginning to believe this old 1924 house was just not built to be > vented. I added the vents to the non-vented attic about 6-7 years ago > and may have created more problems than I solved. Well actually > didn't have a proble. Roofer working on roof suggested I should have > vents and so I added them at his suggestion to aid in cooling house. > I don't remember back then having this odor problem. I think house > interiors are too opened up to take the ventilation and house all the > air has fouled the attic..? However it's TOO LATE NOW to change that!> > Looking over my house still trying to figure out where all the attic > air is getting down into house. I sealed off with plastic an area > that plaster was off of a ceiling. I thinking now it is due to all > the old double hung windows that have rope and pulley style mechanics > to open and shut because the rope system runs through a hole in window > frame and frame is open to interior walls. Since house was built > where there is a view, it is almost wall to wall windows. I counted > 31 windows on the two floors, not counting 5 in basement and 2 in > garage since they are set in concrete. > > Is this a possible area of air leakage in house from attic down into > house, through old double hung rope-and-pulley windows?? > I found a company about an hour and half from here that does nothing > but air sealing. He said he could seal top of walls off in attic so > air doesn't get down into walls and seal the electrical fixtures, > etc. He doesn't understand the concept of attic air getting down into > house which surprises me but as long as he knows how to do the > sealing, I guess it doesn't matter.>

[Guest guest]

Brad

Yes, the 'stack effect' reverses when the sign of the temperature difference reverses, so the outside is the upflowing chimney and the cooler inside is the downflowing return. This came as a shock to us when we first found it but it should not have done so; the math is pretty convincing.

Strong winds can produce bigger pressure differences than stack effect and so can leaky ducting in the attic, if the leaks are bad enough. You have to take them all into account and be prepared to be surprised in some instances. I rarely do a house investigation when I do not learn something new, even if only how poor my assumptions were.

Jim

Re: Sealing my house interior // windows at fault?

The only way I can think of that warm air from the attic would bedrawn back into the conditioned space of the house is if the housebecomes negative in pressure with respect to the attic. This could result from duct leakage to the outside on the supply sidethat would cause the return side to suck more air out of the spacethan is delivered to it. It could also result from excess exhaustventilation such as a monster kitchen range hood. Wind candepressurize the structure under certain circumstances. That, by theway, is one area where window leakage could factor in, but I do notrecommend starting with that.Whatever the cause, the first step is to air seal the attic floor andcreate a pressure boundary between the house and the attic. Thisshould be verified by testing with a blower door. Insist on pre- andpost-testing to confirm combustion safety for all your appliances. Duct leakage testing can be done to determine whether the air handleris affecting the pressure in the house with respect to the attic. If there is a surplus of exhaust ventilation in the house, make up airmust be provided from a healthy outdoor source. Do let us know how your problem is resolved.>> Attic fan is in and running and house smells better but attic smell is > not entirely gone. I knew more work would be needed but I was hoping > in this moderate heat of 85 it would be enough and only need the > additional sealing for house to withstand hotter days but not the > case. No air conditioning turned on yet and reasonably comfortable so > it might have helped there. > > I'm beginning to believe this old 1924 house was just not built to be > vented. I added the vents to the non-vented attic about 6-7 years ago > and may have created more problems than I solved. Well actually > didn't have a proble. Roofer working on roof suggested I should have > vents and so I added them at his suggestion to aid in cooling house. > I don't remember back then having this odor problem. I think house > interiors are too opened up to take the ventilation and house all the > air has fouled the attic..? However it's TOO LATE NOW to change that!> > Looking over my house still trying to figure out where all the attic > air is getting down into house. I sealed off with plastic an area > that plaster was off of a ceiling. I thinking now it is due to all > the old double hung windows that have rope and pulley style mechanics > to open and shut because the rope system runs through a hole in window > frame and frame is open to interior walls. Since house was built > where there is a view, it is almost wall to wall windows. I counted > 31 windows on the two floors, not counting 5 in basement and 2 in > garage since they are set in concrete. > > Is this a possible area of air leakage in house from attic down into > house, through old double hung rope-and-pulley windows?? > I found a company about an hour and half from here that does nothing > but air sealing. He said he could seal top of walls off in attic so > air doesn't get down into walls and seal the electrical fixtures, > etc. He doesn't understand the concept of attic air getting down into > house which surprises me but as long as he knows how to do the > sealing, I guess it doesn't matter.>

[Guest guest]

Brad

Yes, the 'stack effect' reverses when the sign of the temperature difference reverses, so the outside is the upflowing chimney and the cooler inside is the downflowing return. This came as a shock to us when we first found it but it should not have done so; the math is pretty convincing.

Strong winds can produce bigger pressure differences than stack effect and so can leaky ducting in the attic, if the leaks are bad enough. You have to take them all into account and be prepared to be surprised in some instances. I rarely do a house investigation when I do not learn something new, even if only how poor my assumptions were.

Jim

Re: Sealing my house interior // windows at fault?

The only way I can think of that warm air from the attic would bedrawn back into the conditioned space of the house is if the housebecomes negative in pressure with respect to the attic. This could result from duct leakage to the outside on the supply sidethat would cause the return side to suck more air out of the spacethan is delivered to it. It could also result from excess exhaustventilation such as a monster kitchen range hood. Wind candepressurize the structure under certain circumstances. That, by theway, is one area where window leakage could factor in, but I do notrecommend starting with that.Whatever the cause, the first step is to air seal the attic floor andcreate a pressure boundary between the house and the attic. Thisshould be verified by testing with a blower door. Insist on pre- andpost-testing to confirm combustion safety for all your appliances. Duct leakage testing can be done to determine whether the air handleris affecting the pressure in the house with respect to the attic. If there is a surplus of exhaust ventilation in the house, make up airmust be provided from a healthy outdoor source. Do let us know how your problem is resolved.>> Attic fan is in and running and house smells better but attic smell is > not entirely gone. I knew more work would be needed but I was hoping > in this moderate heat of 85 it would be enough and only need the > additional sealing for house to withstand hotter days but not the > case. No air conditioning turned on yet and reasonably comfortable so > it might have helped there. > > I'm beginning to believe this old 1924 house was just not built to be > vented. I added the vents to the non-vented attic about 6-7 years ago > and may have created more problems than I solved. Well actually > didn't have a proble. Roofer working on roof suggested I should have > vents and so I added them at his suggestion to aid in cooling house. > I don't remember back then having this odor problem. I think house > interiors are too opened up to take the ventilation and house all the > air has fouled the attic..? However it's TOO LATE NOW to change that!> > Looking over my house still trying to figure out where all the attic > air is getting down into house. I sealed off with plastic an area > that plaster was off of a ceiling. I thinking now it is due to all > the old double hung windows that have rope and pulley style mechanics > to open and shut because the rope system runs through a hole in window > frame and frame is open to interior walls. Since house was built > where there is a view, it is almost wall to wall windows. I counted > 31 windows on the two floors, not counting 5 in basement and 2 in > garage since they are set in concrete. > > Is this a possible area of air leakage in house from attic down into > house, through old double hung rope-and-pulley windows?? > I found a company about an hour and half from here that does nothing > but air sealing. He said he could seal top of walls off in attic so > air doesn't get down into walls and seal the electrical fixtures, > etc. He doesn't understand the concept of attic air getting down into > house which surprises me but as long as he knows how to do the > sealing, I guess it doesn't matter.>

[Guest guest]

Barb,

Let's try this as a hypothesis for the sweaty windows:

Your exterior walls are just open wall cavities, no insulation. Those

windows with the rope-pulley-weight system are just dragging a pair of

counterweights up and down inside an open wall cavity.

As you say, those wall cavities are open to the attic, which used to

be sealed but now has free air flow to outside through the soffit

vents.

So I propose the soffit vents allowed cold air to enter, flow down

through the wall cavity, chill the windowframe from both sides, and

exit through the pulley holes on both sides to chill the window

directly. Assuming the window is a single pane of glass, chilling any

part of it will conduct to chill the whole thing. In the winter, that

would explain the extreme condensation; putting the window up would

mostly block the air coming through the pulley holes so would stop the

condensation, as you observed.

However, in summertime humid air from outside would be coming down

that same channel, and the A/C might have the house cold enough to

cause condensation inside the wall cavity. Could also simply cause

decay of the wood facing the cavity (conceivably cedar or redwood or

such but that's speculation) as well as of the counterweights

themselves, and 80 years of dust-debris at the bottom of those

cavities. Air moving past all that and into the house would explain

what you're seeing, and depressurizing the whole attic would

predictably reduce that infiltration.

As a child I watched my father replace a broken cord (ie counterweight

dropped to bottom of wall cavity) on a similar window in a house also

built in the 1920's. My recollection is that by removing the window

finish trim he could disassemble the window from room side in enough

to expose the wall cavity, and then just fished the weight out and

replaced the cord. Although you will have 80 years of paint to get

through instead of 40, and should get someone who actually knows how,

I'd recommend inspecting several of those wall cavities for decay and

debris (and mold). And yes, sealing them from above sure seems like a

good idea to prevent future condensation -- and stop airflow through

the cavity and into your house.

Reminds me of a quote from my college textbook on complex systems in

engineering school about 30 years ago, which in turn was quoting a

text on urban studies:

" Any intuitive change to a complex system will inevitably leave [that

system] worse off. "

Steve Chalmers

stevec@...

>

> Hi Steve. Thanks. I am cross ventilating in the apartment I am

> renting until I figure out what is wrong with my house but not cross

> ventilation in the house. I put an attic fan in though and it seems

> to be helping to get rid of the odor in house. I don't run a/c much

> since I don't like to be " refrigerated " but I do turn it on when

> humidity gets high. We are having a drought here so humidity is

> still okay and I set a/c to 87 I think.

> I believe tops of walls in house are totally open to attic, that

> attic is not sealed at all in any way off from house frame.

[snip]

[Guest guest]

Barb,

Let's try this as a hypothesis for the sweaty windows:

Your exterior walls are just open wall cavities, no insulation. Those

windows with the rope-pulley-weight system are just dragging a pair of

counterweights up and down inside an open wall cavity.

As you say, those wall cavities are open to the attic, which used to

be sealed but now has free air flow to outside through the soffit

vents.

So I propose the soffit vents allowed cold air to enter, flow down

through the wall cavity, chill the windowframe from both sides, and

exit through the pulley holes on both sides to chill the window

directly. Assuming the window is a single pane of glass, chilling any

part of it will conduct to chill the whole thing. In the winter, that

would explain the extreme condensation; putting the window up would

mostly block the air coming through the pulley holes so would stop the

condensation, as you observed.

However, in summertime humid air from outside would be coming down

that same channel, and the A/C might have the house cold enough to

cause condensation inside the wall cavity. Could also simply cause

decay of the wood facing the cavity (conceivably cedar or redwood or

such but that's speculation) as well as of the counterweights

themselves, and 80 years of dust-debris at the bottom of those

cavities. Air moving past all that and into the house would explain

what you're seeing, and depressurizing the whole attic would

predictably reduce that infiltration.

As a child I watched my father replace a broken cord (ie counterweight

dropped to bottom of wall cavity) on a similar window in a house also

built in the 1920's. My recollection is that by removing the window

finish trim he could disassemble the window from room side in enough

to expose the wall cavity, and then just fished the weight out and

replaced the cord. Although you will have 80 years of paint to get

through instead of 40, and should get someone who actually knows how,

I'd recommend inspecting several of those wall cavities for decay and

debris (and mold). And yes, sealing them from above sure seems like a

good idea to prevent future condensation -- and stop airflow through

the cavity and into your house.

Reminds me of a quote from my college textbook on complex systems in

engineering school about 30 years ago, which in turn was quoting a

text on urban studies:

" Any intuitive change to a complex system will inevitably leave [that

system] worse off. "

Steve Chalmers

stevec@...

>

> Hi Steve. Thanks. I am cross ventilating in the apartment I am

> renting until I figure out what is wrong with my house but not cross

> ventilation in the house. I put an attic fan in though and it seems

> to be helping to get rid of the odor in house. I don't run a/c much

> since I don't like to be " refrigerated " but I do turn it on when

> humidity gets high. We are having a drought here so humidity is

> still okay and I set a/c to 87 I think.

> I believe tops of walls in house are totally open to attic, that

> attic is not sealed at all in any way off from house frame.

[snip]