Re: enzymes on an empty stomach?

August 13, 2005

Devon Houston of Houston Nutriceuticals suggested this to a friend of

mine for her son. Certainly worth a shot.

Masterjohn wrote:

>Hi everyone,

>

>Anyone have any thoughts about taking enzymes on an empty stomach?

>I'm thinking it would be a good way to help break down some of the

>crud in my intestines, and maybe even kill certain types of

>microorganisms.

>

>Chris

>

August 15, 2005

Chris-

>Anyone have any thoughts about taking enzymes on an empty stomach?

>I'm thinking it would be a good way to help break down some of the

>crud in my intestines, and maybe even kill certain types of

>microorganisms.

Besides the danger of the protease attacking your intestinal lining, I

think the whole idea of crud built up in one's guts is almost certainly

bogus. I know alternative types like to talk about pounds of impacted

feces and whatnot, but it doesn't fit the facts I'm aware of at all. For

example, when someone gets a colonoscopy, he's given a laxative, he has

diarrhea, and then he's scoped. (Sometimes the hospital will administer an

enema too, but not always.) If one bout of diarrhea is enough to flush the

intestines clean enough for a scoping, then how do these pounds of impacted

feces/crud/whatever accumulate in the first place? In someone with chronic

constipation maybe, but that's a whole separate issue, and I doubt

impaction is really the prime issue there anyway.

No, I think what's going on is that you have ill intestines. They may be

inflamed, you may have villi damage, you probably don't produce adequate

amounts of various enzymes and other compounds, you could have excessive

permeability and insufficient mucus... There are plenty of possibilities,

but I seriously doubt a barrier layer of garbage is part of the problem.

BTW, Schulze's company included a freebie with my bottle of Echinacea Plus

-- a few capsules each of Intestinal Formulas #1 and #2 -- and I've really

got to say, I disagree with ANYONE who would recommend #1 for ANYONE. The

first ingredient is aloe, which contains anthraquinone, which is a

cathartic. It irritates the gut and has a laxative effect. That's not

going to heal ANYONE'S intestines. Many companies sell aloe for internal

use, and without fail, people on SCD lists who try them have terrible

experiences. I believe there's one company, MoleCure, which sells an aloe

product that's had the anthraquinone removed, and they make all kinds of

grandiose claims which they never back up with any kind of citation

whatsoever, and while some people have reported it has no effect positive

or negative, others are still bothered, and I've never heard any real

positive testimonials. So I'd really recommend avoiding it like the

plague. #2 is more debatable, though psyllium can be irritating, flax has

all kinds of problems I'm sure you're aware of, pectin can be irritating,

and while marshmallow root and slippery elm bark can promote mucus

secretion, they can also irritate and promote overgrowth. I certainly have

no intention of using either.

-

August 15, 2005

On 8/15/05, Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> Chris-

>

> >Anyone have any thoughts about taking enzymes on an empty stomach?

> >I'm thinking it would be a good way to help break down some of the

> >crud in my intestines, and maybe even kill certain types of

> >microorganisms.

>

> Besides the danger of the protease attacking your intestinal lining, I

> think the whole idea of crud built up in one's guts is almost certainly

> bogus.

What about bacteria and viruses and fungi? I was thinking the enzymes

might be toxic to them. I know cellulase helps break down candida.

Maybe a non-protease enzyme? Or just cellulase?

> BTW, Schulze's company included a freebie with my bottle of Echinacea Plus

> -- a few capsules each of Intestinal Formulas #1 and #2 -- and I've really

> got to say, I disagree with ANYONE who would recommend #1 for ANYONE. The

> first ingredient is aloe, which contains anthraquinone, which is a

> cathartic. It irritates the gut and has a laxative effect. That's not

> going to heal ANYONE'S intestines. Many companies sell aloe for internal

> use, and without fail, people on SCD lists who try them have terrible

> experiences. I believe there's one company, MoleCure, which sells an aloe

> product that's had the anthraquinone removed, and they make all kinds of

> grandiose claims which they never back up with any kind of citation

> whatsoever, and while some people have reported it has no effect positive

> or negative, others are still bothered, and I've never heard any real

> positive testimonials. So I'd really recommend avoiding it like the

> plague. #2 is more debatable, though psyllium can be irritating, flax has

> all kinds of problems I'm sure you're aware of, pectin can be irritating,

> and while marshmallow root and slippery elm bark can promote mucus

> secretion, they can also irritate and promote overgrowth. I certainly have

> no intention of using either.

I've been taking #1 for a week and #2 since the Saturday before that.

I would say that, contrary to your order of priority, #2 seems to have

been positive for me. It helped induce a bowel movement of something

that was definitely stuck, and was overly firm. I suspect it is

useful medicinally but not as a tonic.

#1, on the other hand, I am not positive, but am 80% sure is doing

damage. I think something in it is helping induce detoxification--

probably the bentonite-- based on the idea that the white on my tongue

started clearing away to the point it was almost gone before I got it,

and then got drastically white later in the night. Although there is

the possibility that was from increased toxin production.

Anyway, the first few times I took it, I got a tremendous increase in

energy, and I started dancing-- couldn't control the urge. Same thing

that happened when I broke my 1-week VCO fast with two pieces of

toast. And what did the toast do to me after that? Made my gut

problems worse and helped redo some of the damage the fasting fixed.

So I'm guessing that the huge burst of energy meant that some slimy

creature in my gut was digesting the fiber and making it metabolically

available. Because obviously my body reacted as if I'd consumed a

concentrated source of energy.

And after the first time I ate toast, I didn't get a huge burst every

time after that-- naturally. Nor do I get energy from the IF#1

anymore. And I feel more sluggish than in the couple days before I

was on it, and it seems like my gas has gotten worse.

My gas seems better today, and I've eaten lots of steak. I just had

about 3/4 of a pound with 4 tablets of HCl, and 3 tablets of enzymes,

some kimchi, and a glass of wine. No burning with the HCl. does that

mean I should try five?

Chris

--

Want the other side of the cholesterol story?

Find out what your doctor isn't telling you:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

August 15, 2005

Chris-

>What about bacteria and viruses and fungi? I was thinking the enzymes

>might be toxic to them. I know cellulase helps break down candida.

>Maybe a non-protease enzyme? Or just cellulase?

I guess you could try protease-free enzymes, but taking anything that

breaks down protein without food is risky.

>I've been taking #1 for a week and #2 since the Saturday before that.

>I would say that, contrary to your order of priority, #2 seems to have

>been positive for me.

How is that contrary to my take on them? I recommended avoiding #1 like

the plague while I said #2 has some potential positive value but some caveats.

>#1, on the other hand, I am not positive, but am 80% sure is doing

>damage. I think something in it is helping induce detoxification--

>probably the bentonite-- based on the idea that the white on my tongue

>started clearing away to the point it was almost gone before I got it,

>and then got drastically white later in the night. Although there is

>the possibility that was from increased toxin production.

Interesting. Could the label on my sample packet be reversed? I got a

plastic packet labeled " 24 Hour Bowel Detox " . On the back it lists its

contents as " Intestinal Formula #1 " , containing aloe and some other stuff,

and " Intestinal Formula #2 " , containing bentonite, charcoal and some other

stuff. I haven't actually opened to the packet to look at the individual

packets inside it, though.

>Anyway, the first few times I took it, I got a tremendous increase in

>energy, and I started dancing-- couldn't control the urge.

The first few times you took which? The aloe stuff, or the bentonite

stuff? And are you sure which is which?

> Same thing

>that happened when I broke my 1-week VCO fast with two pieces of

>toast. And what did the toast do to me after that? Made my gut

>problems worse and helped redo some of the damage the fasting fixed.

>So I'm guessing that the huge burst of energy meant that some slimy

>creature in my gut was digesting the fiber and making it metabolically

>available. Because obviously my body reacted as if I'd consumed a

>concentrated source of energy.

It's certainly not impossible that you have parasites, but parasites don't

equate to huge bursts of energy. If you mean something else, I guess it

depends. But I'd venture to say that the explanation is more likely to be

this: your digestive system and the organisms in it broke down the

toast. This provided you with a burst of sugar and therefore energy, which

felt unusually intense due to the fast, but it also allowed some organisms

to overgrow, causing and/or aggravating digestive problems.

>My gas seems better today, and I've eaten lots of steak. I just had

>about 3/4 of a pound with 4 tablets of HCl, and 3 tablets of enzymes,

>some kimchi, and a glass of wine. No burning with the HCl. does that

>mean I should try five?

No negative effects from HCl supplementation definitely means it's worth

trying more, but why not increase by one at a time? And why tablets

instead of capsules? What brand are you using? What enzymes, also?

-

August 15, 2005

On 8/15/05, Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> How is that contrary to my take on them? I recommended avoiding #1 like

> the plague while I said #2 has some potential positive value but some

> caveats.

Opps! My apologies. It is #1 that seems to be beneficial for me, and

#2 that seems to -- possibly-- be problematic.

> >#1, on the other hand, I am not positive, but am 80% sure is doing

> >damage. I think something in it is helping induce detoxification--

> >probably the bentonite-- based on the idea that the white on my tongue

> >started clearing away to the point it was almost gone before I got it,

> >and then got drastically white later in the night. Although there is

> >the possibility that was from increased toxin production.

>

> Interesting. Could the label on my sample packet be reversed? I got a

> plastic packet labeled " 24 Hour Bowel Detox " . On the back it lists its

> contents as " Intestinal Formula #1 " , containing aloe and some other stuff,

> and " Intestinal Formula #2 " , containing bentonite, charcoal and some other

> stuff. I haven't actually opened to the packet to look at the individual

> packets inside it, though.

Right... my fault. I apologize.

> >Anyway, the first few times I took it, I got a tremendous increase in

> >energy, and I started dancing-- couldn't control the urge.

>

> The first few times you took which? The aloe stuff, or the bentonite

> stuff? And are you sure which is which?

Bentonite/psyillium.

> It's certainly not impossible that you have parasites, but parasites don't

> equate to huge bursts of energy. If you mean something else, I guess it

> depends. But I'd venture to say that the explanation is more likely to be

> this: your digestive system and the organisms in it broke down the

> toast. This provided you with a burst of sugar and therefore energy, which

> felt unusually intense due to the fast, but it also allowed some organisms

> to overgrow, causing and/or aggravating digestive problems.

That's my take. What symptoms would distinguish parasites from

general intestinal damage?

> >My gas seems better today, and I've eaten lots of steak. I just had

> >about 3/4 of a pound with 4 tablets of HCl, and 3 tablets of enzymes,

> >some kimchi, and a glass of wine. No burning with the HCl. does that

> >mean I should try five?

>

> No negative effects from HCl supplementation definitely means it's worth

> trying more, but why not increase by one at a time? And why tablets

> instead of capsules? What brand are you using? What enzymes, also?

Capsules, again my mistake. I took four, so five would be one at a time.

Solaray, with pepsin 650/162mg 2000 mg 4x.

Chris

--

Want the other side of the cholesterol story?

Find out what your doctor isn't telling you:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

August 15, 2005

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of Idol

>

>Chris-

>

>>What about bacteria and viruses and fungi? I was thinking the enzymes

>>might be toxic to them. I know cellulase helps break down candida.

>>Maybe a non-protease enzyme? Or just cellulase?

>

>I guess you could try protease-free enzymes, but taking anything that

>breaks down protein without food is risky.

What about proteolytic enzymes, though, like Wobenzyme? They contain

proteases. (One site says that " proteolytic enzymes " means " chewing up

proteins. " ) I've been giving one of my dog's Wobenzyme for inflammation for

over a year now and I *think* it's helping her, although it's hard to

measure. In any case, she's in pretty good shape for dog turning 15

tomorrow, FWIW!

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

August 15, 2005

Chris-

>Opps! My apologies. It is #1 that seems to be beneficial for me, and

>#2 that seems to -- possibly-- be problematic.

OK, gotcha. Do you feel #1 has been consistently beneficial, or just

helpful in expelling that one particular bowel movement? I mean, consuming

aloe vera is definitely a great way to get stuff out of you, but at the

expense of some serious irritation, unless Schulze is doing something about

that problem and not mentioning it, which seems unlikely. He does, after,

IIRC, describe the effect of #1 as softening one's stools and increasing

their frequency. As to the rest of #1's ingredients, the last three are

good, and I know nothing about the middle three, though " bark " and " pod "

sound dubious, and grape root is probably very woody. (The grape vines

I've uprooted have been very tree-like, anyway.) With the exception of

aloe, I'd be more inclined to try those things in a tincture than as solids.

As to #2, there are certainly plenty of things in there that can do

damage. I just don't think they're likely to be quite as bad as aloe is

for virtually everyone, but that's evidently not true in your case.

> > >Anyway, the first few times I took it, I got a tremendous increase in

> > >energy, and I started dancing-- couldn't control the urge.

>

>Bentonite/psyillium.

Huh. I wonder what that was. Did you take it with any kind of caloric

input, like juice, coconut water, etc.?

>That's my take. What symptoms would distinguish parasites from

>general intestinal damage?

Generally speaking, parasites cause more dramatically evident wasting

diseases. Since you've had little problem putting on appreciable muscle

bulk, I'm inclined to doubt that parasites are at the root of your

problems, though it's certainly no guarantee. Helpfully, though, several

herbs which can be very effective against parasites are also potent against

candida. In fact, many people believe that ia (a strong tincture of

wormwood, black walnut hulls and cloves) actually accomplishes virtually

everything it does by killing candida, not parasites. Schulze's

liver/gallbladder/anti-parasite tincture includes wormwood and black walnut

and several more, but not cloves:

>>Milk Thistle seed, Silybum marianum, Dandelion root, Taraxacum

>>officinale, Oregon Grape root, Berberis aquifolium, Gentian root,

>>Gentiana lutea, Wormwood leaf and flower, Artemisia absinthium, Mojave

>>Chaparral herb, Larrea californica, Black Walnut hulls, Juglans nigra,

>>Ginger rhizome, Zingiber officinale, Garlic bulb, Allium sativum, and

>>Fennel seed, Foeniculum vulgare.

I have a bottle of that arriving tomorrow; I'll be interested to see what

the results are.

>Capsules, again my mistake. I took four, so five would be one at a time.

Oh, sorry. Somehow I thought you'd taken three.

>Solaray, with pepsin 650/162mg 2000 mg 4x.

Oh, nice high amount of pepsin! Of course, I have no idea whatsoever how

to properly calibrate one's pepsin consumption, but I think it's safe to

say that many betaine HCl supplements have too little.

-

August 15, 2005

Suze-

>What about proteolytic enzymes, though, like Wobenzyme? They contain

>proteases. (One site says that " proteolytic enzymes " means " chewing up

>proteins. " ) I've been giving one of my dog's Wobenzyme for inflammation for

>over a year now and I *think* it's helping her, although it's hard to

>measure. In any case, she's in pretty good shape for dog turning 15

>tomorrow, FWIW!

That's the million-dollar question, isn't it. I don't know. I've tried

Wobenzyme and Serra-peptase myself to no really obvious effect, but I have

had suspicions that they've worsened my digestion. Often studies will look

at the effect of supplements like that on some particular endpoint without

paying attention to other issues, like their effects on the gut.

What breed of dog are you giving the Wobenzyme? If she's a large dog, 15

is pretty impressive!

-

August 15, 2005

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of Idol

>

>That's the million-dollar question, isn't it. I don't know. I've tried

>Wobenzyme and Serra-peptase myself to no really obvious effect, but I have

>had suspicions that they've worsened my digestion. Often studies

>will look

>at the effect of supplements like that on some particular endpoint without

>paying attention to other issues, like their effects on the gut.

Right.

>

>What breed of dog are you giving the Wobenzyme? If she's a large dog, 15

>is pretty impressive!

No, she's miniature pinscher. But still pretty impressive considering the

shape she was in when I adopted her 5 years ago.

I haven't noticed any negative effects on her digestion from Wobenzyme.

She's had digestive issues since around the time I got her. They haven't

gotten any worse or better since starting Wobenzyme about a year ago. So...I

dunno...

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

August 15, 2005

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of Idol

>candida. In fact, many people believe that ia (a strong tincture of

>wormwood, black walnut hulls and cloves) actually accomplishes virtually

>everything it does by killing candida, not parasites.

Have you tried this product? If so, is it effective?

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

August 15, 2005

> [paul] That's the million-dollar question, isn't it. I don't know. I've

tried

> Wobenzyme and Serra-peptase myself to no really obvious effect, but I have

> had suspicions that they've worsened my digestion. Often studies will look

> at the effect of supplements like that on some particular endpoint without

> paying attention to other issues, like their effects on the gut.

I'm pretty sure that taking protease on an empty stomach was one of

the things that kept me in such bad digestive shape for so long -- for

over a year at least. When I got the celiac biopsy my G.I. couldn't

believe that my guts were in such bad shape even though I'd quit

gluten for over a year (due to staying on a strict SCD diet of no

starches/no sugars.) He had me bring in ingredient lists for every

single thing I'd been taking so he could see for himself what was

causing my guts to stay in the same eroded and scarred condition. When

he saw I was taking protease he said, bingo! He thought the enzyme on

an empty stomach s a pretty was a sure bet to tear up the guts. (My

natureopathic doctor sold me on the idea of taking protease that way

to " consume " proteins that were getting past the cell walls or

something to that effect. Ack!)

I quit taking protease a few weeks ago -- it was at about the same

time I started to take rather large amounts of a liquid pet-food type

probiotics called MSE. Except for last night when I accidently ate

something very terrible (and had miserable diarhhea all night and

today) I've been feeling better than I have in the 2 years since the

fateful ruptured ulcer. I mean I've felt positively radically healthy

(!) No bloat, no gas, and reasonably good energy. (In fact my good

health is why I've hardly been at the computer -- yoga every day, the

gym, long walks after dinner plus all the crazy errands I've put off.

After 2 years nearly bedridden, it's just been great.)

I still take at least 5 HCl and about 4 enzyme capsules with meals. I

also heap in the vitamins and mineral supplements as well as a lot of

free-form amino acids from Jomar Labs (great site by the way...)

~Robin

August 15, 2005

On 8/15/05, Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> Chris-

>

> >Opps! My apologies. It is #1 that seems to be beneficial for me, and

> >#2 that seems to -- possibly-- be problematic.

>

> OK, gotcha. Do you feel #1 has been consistently beneficial, or just

> helpful in expelling that one particular bowel movement?

Mostly the first time, although I consistently had extremely loose

stools after that, partially diarrheaish, whereas I wasn't having BMs

at all prior to. Whether that is " helping " or not, I'm not sure. It

also seems to help releave gas.

Although I have found the #1 way to help remove gas, or even induce a

BM, is to do bodyweight squats. However, after doing about 6 sets of

20-30 in a day of fasting, my legs are SO SORE the last two days!!!

> >Bentonite/psyillium.

>

> Huh. I wonder what that was. Did you take it with any kind of caloric

> input, like juice, coconut water, etc.?

I took it with water.

> >That's my take. What symptoms would distinguish parasites from

> >general intestinal damage?

>

> Generally speaking, parasites cause more dramatically evident wasting

> diseases. Since you've had little problem putting on appreciable muscle

> bulk, I'm inclined to doubt that parasites are at the root of your

> problems, though it's certainly no guarantee. Helpfully, though, several

> herbs which can be very effective against parasites are also potent against

> candida. In fact, many people believe that ia (a strong tincture of

> wormwood, black walnut hulls and cloves) actually accomplishes virtually

> everything it does by killing candida, not parasites. Schulze's

> liver/gallbladder/anti-parasite tincture includes wormwood and black walnut

> and several more, but not cloves:

I'm taking the L-GB. I'm taking it at 60 drops three times a day. I

like it a lot. Not that I can tell I'm getting appreciable benefits

from it, but it feels good when I drink it.

I guess it tastes like it's good for me?

> >Capsules, again my mistake. I took four, so five would be one at a time.

>

> Oh, sorry. Somehow I thought you'd taken three.

Three pancreatin, but 4 HCl.

> >Solaray, with pepsin 650/162mg 2000 mg 4x.

>

> Oh, nice high amount of pepsin! Of course, I have no idea whatsoever how

> to properly calibrate one's pepsin consumption, but I think it's safe to

> say that many betaine HCl supplements have too little.

Out of the few choices I had at Vitamin Shoppe, it was by far the

highest, so that's why I bought it.

Chris

--

Want the other side of the cholesterol story?

Find out what your doctor isn't telling you:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

August 15, 2005

Chris-

>Mostly the first time, although I consistently had extremely loose

>stools after that, partially diarrheaish, whereas I wasn't having BMs

>at all prior to. Whether that is " helping " or not, I'm not sure. It

>also seems to help releave gas.

And you think loose and diarrheaish stools mean #1 is HELPING you?

>However, after doing about 6 sets of

>20-30 in a day of fasting, my legs are SO SORE the last two days!!!

I can imagine! I did my first workout today after getting sick from the

mold, and to my surprise I found myself doing a full workout, complete with

200 1-legged bodyweight squats (100 per leg) but I'm expecting a bit of

soreness tomorrow -- and I haven't been fasting for, what, a couple years

now like you have? <g>

>I took it with water.

Not sure what to make of that, then, but I'm not familiar with all the

effects of some of the herbs.

>I'm taking the L-GB. I'm taking it at 60 drops three times a day. I

>like it a lot. Not that I can tell I'm getting appreciable benefits

>from it, but it feels good when I drink it.

>

>I guess it tastes like it's good for me?

Yeah, I know what you mean. Years ago I had the same reaction to

ia. It eventually seemed to clear up a few issues for me too.

-

August 15, 2005

Suze-

>No, she's miniature pinscher. But still pretty impressive considering the

>shape she was in when I adopted her 5 years ago.

Sorry to hear she came to you in such bad shape. 15 years is definitely an

accomplishment, then.

>I haven't noticed any negative effects on her digestion from Wobenzyme.

>She's had digestive issues since around the time I got her. They haven't

>gotten any worse or better since starting Wobenzyme about a year ago. So...I

>dunno...

A lot of these things harm some people but not others, so you never can

tell for sure.

-

August 15, 2005

Suze-

>Have you tried this product? If so, is it effective?

As I mentioned to I did try it years ago, and it seemed quite

helpful. The price was obscene, though -- high enough that I have a

feeling Schulze's stuff might actually be a huge bargain by comparison,

though I'd have to check to be sure.

-

August 15, 2005

>

> [paul]Besides the danger of the protease attacking your intestinal lining,

> > I

> > think the whole idea of crud built up in one's guts is almost certainly

> > bogus. I know alternative types like to talk about pounds of impacted

> > feces and whatnot, but it doesn't fit the facts I'm aware of at all. For

> >

> > example, when someone gets a colonoscopy, he's given a laxative, he has

> > diarrhea, and then he's scoped. (Sometimes the hospital will administer

> > an

> > enema too, but not always.) If one bout of diarrhea is enough to flush

> > the

> > intestines clean enough for a scoping, then how do these pounds of

> > impacted

> > feces/crud/whatever accumulate in the first place? In someone with

> > chronic

> > constipation maybe, but that's a whole separate issue, and I doubt

> > impaction is really the prime issue there anyway.

> >

> > No, I think what's going on is that you have ill intestines. They may be

> >

> > inflamed, you may have villi damage, you probably don't produce adequate

> >

> > amounts of various enzymes and other compounds, you could have excessive

> >

> > permeability and insufficient mucus... There are plenty of

> > possibilities,

> > but I seriously doubt a barrier layer of garbage is part of the problem.

>

> , Speaking from experience I'm not sure what else explains how I

could lose (during a bacterial infection) almost 20% of my weight (through

diarhhea mostly) and then, upon finally gaining it all back, end up with a

waist that is 3 to 4 inches smaller (14% smaller) than it was before I was

sick. All my other measurements are close to the same. When I was

" cleansing " , all sorts of plastic-like stuff was coming out.

I'm prepared to believe my smaller waist is due to something else but what

would that be? I've not had a 26 " waist since I was in grade school. Now,

even when I eat something like I did last night (which made me sick and

bloat up,) my waist still goes in at the sides.. It sure sticks out in the

front though! If it was simply due to a lifetime of inflammation why was the

constant " inflammation " all the way around my back -- the so-called

love-handles area?

~Robin Ann

August 15, 2005

By the way, I'm not suggesting that the colon is on the sides of the

body :-) it's just that I think maybe an especially twisty-turny colon

like I have (verified by a G.I. after a colonoscopy I had several

years ago,) might have some reason to be thicker and bigger throughout

its length. This would, I think, cause fat to sort of bulge out on the

sides.. Obviously I can't know for sure but what else can it be? And

for so long? This isn't something that would come and go --my waist

was ALWAYS 30 " and now it's always pretty darned close to 26 " ..

As I mentioned, now when I get bloated, no matter how severe, the

bulge is different than the " love handles " effect I had for the many

years before. The bloat is more of a straight-out bump now -- as if I

were several months pregmant..

My guess is that inflammation, for me, was taking place more in my

small intestine rather than in my large intestine. One reason is that

I've never really had a problem (except the very extreme cases in the

beginning of my illness) with diarhhea -- which I consider to be more

of a problem in the colon.

~Robin Ann

August 15, 2005

On 8/15/05, Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> And you think loose and diarrheaish stools mean #1 is HELPING you?

It was versus no stools. I think the VCO fast helped me and I had

constant diarrhea throughout the whole thing. It definitely resolved

a lot of symptoms (which I brought back with my diet after the fast).

So it wasn't exactly obvious. In other words, I don't know if I would

have had the loose stools if I was EATING. It could have been the

combination of that product that induced the BM and the fact that I

had no bulk in my diet.

> >However, after doing about 6 sets of

> >20-30 in a day of fasting, my legs are SO SORE the last two days!!!

>

> I can imagine! I did my first workout today after getting sick from the

> mold, and to my surprise I found myself doing a full workout, complete with

> 200 1-legged bodyweight squats (100 per leg) but I'm expecting a bit of

> soreness tomorrow -- and I haven't been fasting for, what, a couple years

> now like you have? <g>

Two weeks. I ate my first solid food-- kimchi-- yesterday, and steak

today. I had bone broths the day before that, which was the first

introduction besides water and supplements of coco water.

> >I guess it tastes like it's good for me?

>

> Yeah, I know what you mean. Years ago I had the same reaction to

> ia. It eventually seemed to clear up a few issues for me too.

Good, that gives some hope.

By the way... I sort of had the same kind of taste for coconut water

kefir. Coconut water, no. I don't recommend it. But I would gladly

recommend coconut water kefir. It's such a pain in the !@# though, so

I'm just going to try kefiring molasses water now.

Chris

--

Want the other side of the cholesterol story?

Find out what your doctor isn't telling you:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

August 16, 2005

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of Robin Ann

>I still take at least 5 HCl and about 4 enzyme capsules with meals. I

>also heap in the vitamins and mineral supplements as well as a lot of

>free-form amino acids from Jomar Labs (great site by the way...)

>

Robin,

Which product from them do you use? The " Pure Form 20 " ?

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

August 16, 2005

Chris-

>By the way... I sort of had the same kind of taste for coconut water

>kefir. Coconut water, no. I don't recommend it. But I would gladly

>recommend coconut water kefir. It's such a pain in the !@# though, so

>I'm just going to try kefiring molasses water now.

If you're going to kefir molasses water, why not kefir pasteurized coconut

water?

-

August 16, 2005

On 8/16/05, Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> If you're going to kefir molasses water, why not kefir pasteurized coconut

> water?

That would probably taste a lot better. I think I'll get some.

Mollasses is heated anyway.

Chris

--

Want the other side of the cholesterol story?

Find out what your doctor isn't telling you:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

August 16, 2005

> Which product from them do you use? The " Pure Form 20 " ?

> Suze Fisher

Yes, I use the Jomar Pure Form 20 together with the WAC. In the

morning I've been adding Tyrosine.. Are you familiar with Jomar, read

their stuff? It seems like a really thoughtful quality company and

their products come the day after I order them. I think they make

custom blends too. I was wondering what you thought of their

literature and the quality of the products. As I say, to my rather

uneducated eye, they look to be top-notch. www.jomarlabs.com

I started taking the more complete blend, the PF20, when I read that

the single amino acids are helped to be assimilated when when at least

*some* of a more complete amino blend are around. Made sense to me..

~Robin

August 16, 2005

On 8/15/05, Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> Besides the danger of the protease attacking your intestinal lining, I

> think the whole idea of crud built up in one's guts is almost certainly

> bogus. I know alternative types like to talk about pounds of impacted

> feces and whatnot, but it doesn't fit the facts I'm aware of at all. For

> example, when someone gets a colonoscopy, he's given a laxative, he has

> diarrhea, and then he's scoped. (Sometimes the hospital will administer an

> enema too, but not always.) If one bout of diarrhea is enough to flush the

> intestines clean enough for a scoping, then how do these pounds of impacted

> feces/crud/whatever accumulate in the first place? In someone with chronic

> constipation maybe, but that's a whole separate issue, and I doubt

> impaction is really the prime issue there anyway.

> No, I think what's going on is that you have ill intestines. They may be

> inflamed, you may have villi damage, you probably don't produce adequate

> amounts of various enzymes and other compounds, you could have excessive

> permeability and insufficient mucus... There are plenty of possibilities,

> but I seriously doubt a barrier layer of garbage is part of the problem.

Rather than speculating about whether it is " certainly bogus " or not,

this is one of those things that are easily discovered. I remember

seeing pictures long ago by Bernard Jensen showing what came out of

people's colon that he had treated. Maybe he was lying but it

certainly looked pretty bad to me. I also recall him mentioning

attending autopsies and seeing all manner of crud in the colon.

Whether I agree with some of his methods or not, Jensen always struck

me as serious and credible. He was one of those healers who attracted

large audiences whereever he went not because of grandiose claims, but

because LOTS of people got well as a result of his treatments and/or

teachings.

Schulze has said the same thing regarding colons. Maybe he is just

parroting Jensen (one of the people he studied under) but I do

remember him specifically saying he watched/attended autopsies and

hung out at operations.

The Merck Manual also seems to think its a problem, saying

unequivocally that 100% of Americans will develop either

diverticulosis or have many diverticula, which is just a fancy way of

saying distended encased fecal matter in their colons.

Hmmm...in fact I am looking at a picture now in Schulze's book of a 5

foot long fecal impaction. He said the man's lower abdomen distention

went away as a result. So this is either a clever con job that even

Merck has got caught up in, or some people perhaps many do have this

problem among the others you listed.

I know in the midst of a longish fast I have eliminated some large

stuff wondering " where the heck did that come from? " LOL!

> BTW, Schulze's company included a freebie with my bottle of Echinacea Plus

> -- a few capsules each of Intestinal Formulas #1 and #2 -- and I've really

> got to say, I disagree with ANYONE who would recommend #1 for ANYONE.

Well I'm the only one that has recommended it here, and you and me

disagree on lots of things, so that is nothing new :-)

Having said that, in my own personal sphere I have known quite a few

people who were helped by the #1, not the least of which has been my

family, none of who would in any way be mistaken as WAPers. And I mean

helped in such a way that the herbs restored their bowel movement

regularity and they simply didn't need them anymore.

Which by the way is how I measure the usefulness of a non-food

herb/supplement in terms of healing. Does it move you to the point

where you no longer need it? If not you may have found something that

helps but it is creating a dependency, not restoring long term health,

which may be okay if that is your only option.

> The