need advice...somewhat desperately

August 12, 2005

hi all. i really need your help...

this is going to be long as i'm going the give the whole history

here. the bottom line question SHOULD be at or toward the end of all

this.

about 12 years ago or so i had work done on a tooth...a great big

cavity. he really hammered on that tooth and it started hurting

shortly thereafer. my dentist did a root canal on the tooth shortly

thereafter; he did only one root of the three-rooted tooth. he also

put a crown on the tooth.

i changed dentists a few years later. the new dentist had these new

lower radiation high-tech x-rays where the x-rays shows up on a

computer screen. he told me it looked like my root canal was

infected and he sent me to an endodontist.

the endodontist redid that root canal, and also root-canaled the

other 2 roots in the same tooth. she said i should probably be fine.

my dentist also told me had to have a SECOND crown...i think because

the first one no longer fit because of the new root canals or

something. this is one EXPENSIVE tooth now. one filling, then four

root canals, 2 crowns, a total of 3 (so far) rounds of antibiotics in

2 years, (and now surgery.)

2 years ago i had pain in the same tooth...i went back to the

endodontist, she said i would need surgery, gave me penicillin, the

pain went away and stayed away for two years...i didn't go back for

the surgery, even tho my dentist kept nagging me about it, because my

tooth was not bothering, i tend to procrastinate everything, and i

didn't want to spend the money and go thru the whole surgery thing.

well, the pain came back a few months ago. the endodontist REFUSED

to see me...so i went to a recommended new holistic dentist who gave

me a blessed shot of novacaine to ease the pain (had he not i would

BEGGED for one), penicillin and pain killers. he said GET THE

SURGERY and recommended an endodontist. (he also recommended i keep

the tooth rather than have it pulled...he said i had good bone and

explained why i should keep the tooth; good bone means tooth harder

to pull)

i made an appt with the recommended endodontist...or should i say one

in the same group as the recommended one. i couldn't get an appt

with the actual recommended one as he was booked til oct. or

something.

as the pain was starting to come back, he put me on MORE antibiotics,

something really gut-ripping, til the surgery.

now, somewhere around this time i posted here about this...i said,

i've been drinking raw milk for a year and haven't had a cold in this

time, before which it seemed like i was always getting colds, half of

which seemed to go into bronchitis. this raw milk was awesome...if

someone had told me i would never get a cold again after i started to

drink it, i never would have believed them.

i posted here, so if i'm so healthy now, immune wise, because of

drinking raw milk, why can't that immunity seep into my infected root

canal and get rid of it.

someone here responded, it may have been chris, that the infection is

basically sealed up in the tooth and the tooth either needs to be

removed, or the surgery needs to be done.

my new holistic dentist said the exact same thing.

(but no one can answer me this: then how do the antibiotics get into

the infected root canal to kill enough bacteria to ease the pain?)

anyway, i had the surgery yesterday. it went well...although he said

there was a lot of infected tissue, that there is always more

infected tissue than shows up on the x-ray.

in fact, the infection was starting to go into my left sinus area and

the thin membrane that separates the sinus from the dental area was

ruptured. in fact, while he was 'operating', it seemed that at one

point there was nothing separating my nose from my mouth...i was

afraid to breath as it felt all open from my nose to my mouth. scary

feeling.

the surgery is called an apicoectomy, whereby they remove, saw off,

whatever, the tip of the root of the tooth, the infected tip of the

tooth root.

they remove the tip of the root and put some kind of filler in

there...my holistic dentist told me to tell the endodontist to please

NOT use amalgam (silver/mercury) in there!! and he was going to use

it!! i asked him at my consultation appt. not to use it...but here

on surgery day he was going to use it!!! i asked him before surgery

to please not use it and he said to his asst, , use the MTA

instead!!! i couldn't believe it! he was actually going to use it!!

it's one thing to put the stuff in your dental fillings where they

can be removed ...i think it's another thing altogether to put the

stuff in your HEAD during surgery!!!!

so anyway, here's what's really bothering.

HE TOLD ME TO TAKE ANOTHER ROUND OF PENICILLIN!!!!!!!!!!!! i

couldn't believe it. that was at 3 pm yesterday...it is now 9 am the

next day and i haven't filled the prescription yet.

warning for Gene...i'm going to talk about God. now is your time to

stop reading and zip your lip, or, er, fingers, okay Gene??? please!

i have been thinking and praying my guts out about this and i don't

know what to do. i am LEANING toward not getting the penicillin

prescription filled...but i'm not sure, as i put it in God's hands

before bed and when i woke up this morning, i thought of two reasons

why maybe i SHOULD take the antibiotic.

here's my thinking, anti-antibiotic.

i'm borderline obsessed with probiotics. i take dirt pills (tho i'm

almost out and wasn't going to get more quite yet for mostly

financial reasons), coconut oil, concentrated coconut cream, i drink

raw milk kefir and raw milk, i eat raw milk yogurt and i drink

kombucha. all this REGULARLY, daily or almost daily.

like i said, i haven't had a cold since i started drinking raw milk.

i live mostly on raw dairy...i eat SOME cooked, prepared food as i

have a husband and son and can't resist, well, Whole Foods entrees!

which is the cooked food we mostly live on now. yeah...i'd rather

spend all that money on whole foods entrees. actually my grocery

bill is just about the same, believe it or not. i stopped buying all

those vegetables i was buying out of guilt and throwing away cuz they

rotted either before or after cooking...none of us were eating them

anyway. i have started eating raw, grass fed ground beef, along with

my one cat. :-) i've been trying to eat more of it. i take cod

liver oil.

okay.

so if he wants me to take the penicillin preventatively, which is

what he said, and i use probiotics all the time...then why do i need

to take it?

this will be 3 rounds of antibiotics in about 2 or 3 months!!!!! the

first round, penicillin, in may or june, made me feel lousy toward

the end and i couldn't wait to take the last pill and just go whole

hog with all the probiotics.

the second round was absolutely gut ripping... i know about finishing

your antibiotic and why, i was a biology major in college, but the

diarrhea was getting so bad so i just stopped.

now he wants me on penicillin again!! i can't bear the thought of

it, i have like 2 dirt pills left...and i just want to pray my way

thru this surgery healing and recovery...moment by moment.

by the way he gave me so much novocaine/local anesthesia, whatever it

was, it was like a RUSH (and not a good one) my heart started beating

weird...i said something but he seemed unconcerned. the thought

occurred to me i could die in this dental chair...and i began praying

and thinking about my life and asking for god's forgiveness and

asking him to not take me away from my family...they need me. and

that if i lived thru this...and i was very afraid...reality hit me,

like i COULD die here...he had asked me the same questions 3 times,

did i have a heart murmur, do i have diabetes, a thyroid

condition...but i said to God, if i survive this i'm going to try to

live my life each moment for You and not for myself anymore...yeah, a

piece of cake, right??? so now i'm trying to do that!!!! not easy!!!

so i felt in my gut, in my heart, in my mind, in my spirit, that if i

will just probiotic myself til the cows come home, if i'll watch my

diet and try to focus on raw dairy and raw meat as much as possible,

if i will try to pray each moment for god to have mercy on me and

heal me...i believed i might not need the penicillin and i could get

away without taking them.

that was last night.

i also thought i would call my new holistic dentist (tho he's too far

and too expensive and have just found out about a new one closer and

probably less expensive) and ask him about it...and i thought about

calling this ever newer holistic dentist who is closer to where i

live and asking them even tho i'm not his patient yet...i don't know

if either one would dare to go against the orders of a

colleague...and tell a patient to ignore the 'orders' to take an

antibiotic.

so as of last night i was pretty much all set to NOT take them. i

put it in God's hands before bed...thinking i would wake up and

decide not to take the penicillin.

then 2 thoughts occurred to me this morning.

1. root canal is by nature sealed off. how did he do the now sawed

off tooth? did he reseal that? so i should STILL have root canal

left...is that supposed to be sealed off? can i still get an

infection in there, if that is so? is the antibiotic to prevent that?

in other words, is one reason to take the penicillin the same reason

you have to take it when you have a root canal infection? in other

words, is there still a canal area that could get infected? i wish i

had thought to ask him this yesterday. i could call him...but then

i'll have to tell him the real reason for my call...that i am dead

set against taking the penicill. and am looking for a way out.

2. is he concerned there might be infected tissue left...and this is

yet another reason? that he wants me to take the penicillin just in

case he didn't get all of the infected tissue out?

i don't presume to think i know more than this endodontist...but of

course they can't transmit years of endodontist school, the why's and

wherefore's, in a single visit.

so...does ANYONE here have any knowledge or experience that might

speak to my situation, an apicoectomy possibly NOT followed by

penicillin????

i anxiously await anyone's reply who might really know the answer...

if not, i'll call my holistic dentist who sent me to this guy (or

rather group) and ask him.

i feel a bit foolish presuming to override doctor's orders...i mean,

he seemed pretty casual about prescribing the penicillin, he said it

was a preventative...but what if he has a truly VALID REASON to

prescribe it???

but i just can't face the thought of yet ANOTHER round of antibiotics.

a dear WAPF friend of mine is sympathetic and agrees that maybe i

shouldn't take the penicill...that perhaps i could use oreganol

instead. i've never used it...i swallow it or just put it on the

area in question? stiches, about 5 of them he said.

thanks so much for reading all this to those who did...thanks for

caring for those who do...thanks for writing to those who are

inclined...and thanks for your prayers for those so inclined as well.

best to all of you.

laura in nj

August 12, 2005

>i have been thinking and praying my guts out about this and i don't

>know what to do. i am LEANING toward not getting the penicillin

>prescription filled...but i'm not sure, as i put it in God's hands

>before bed and when i woke up this morning, i thought of two reasons

>why maybe i SHOULD take the antibiotic.

:

I know it's a hard decision. I DO have some experience in this

area, and if it were me (or one of my kids) I'd do the antibiotic.

Reasons:

1. Long-term jaw and nasal infections are nothing to fool around

with. They can permanently damage the the tissue, and heck,

you KNOW you have damaged tissue at this point.

2. Also you KNOW your system wasn't able to fight the infection on

it's own (or you wouldn't have it in the first place). It is harder

for your body to fight a " sealed off " infection, but like you

point out, the antibiotics manage to get in there. So, for whatever

reason, your body isn't good, right now, at fighting this one. And

your body is in worse shape now because it has to recover from

the surgery.

3. One reason for the penicillin is that during jaw surgery,

the buggies go all over your body and can cause infections

in totally unrelated places. Sometimes in the heart even, which

is rather fatal (mostly in people with heart murmurs).

4. Since your wound was open, there is always the chance

of your picking up a really *bad* bug at the dentist's office.

I know they are careful, but it happens, and the ones in

the office are worse than the ones you have at home.

There have been some very, very bad cases lately of

hospital infections, and once they get going they are very

difficult to stop.

5. There have been cultures who took long-term

antibiotics, namely tetracycline, which occurred in their beer!

Most probiotic foods do contain antibiotics, which tend

to kill the " enemies " of the microbes that make that chemical.

Penicillin is the antibiotic produced by a certain kind of mold.

As for the " gut ripping " part ... a lot of that can be avoided

by taking good probiotics (kefir especially), and avoiding

some of the harder-to-digest foods. Which foods those

are probably depends on your biology: but for ME broths are

usually ok, as are rare meats, and whole fruits and

rice for me (but not anything baked or fried). Of course

if it were me I'd be taking my Pascalite too. (Some people

use the clay as a compress in the mouth against the wound,

which might make it heal quicker too and draw out any

toxins that are there). If you can take any probiotic foods,

try the pills (they are pricey, but they worked for me before

I discovered kefir).

There are other more natural antibiotics, but it's likely

that the ones that would be really effective against

your jaw might still set your gut off, plus this really isn't

a good time to experiment. I have a relative who has

been undergoing *months* of surgery to get rid of

a bone infection that spread to most of her lower

jaw. Nasty stuff.

Colloidal silver might work, but you might want

to check with your holistic doc to see what

kind of effectiveness it has in this instance, and

what dose etc. would be needed.

Heidi Jean

August 12, 2005

Heidi...

i can't thank you enough for writing...

i'm going to go get the penicillin!!!!!!!!!

i'll deal with it...and do the probiotic stuff i always do both

during and after...as always. hopefully this will be the LAST TIME

EVER.

thanks so much heidi!!!!!!

i owe you one! :-)

laura

>

> >i have been thinking and praying my guts out about this and i

don't

> >know what to do. i am LEANING toward not getting the penicillin

> >prescription filled...but i'm not sure, as i put it in God's hands

> >before bed and when i woke up this morning, i thought of two

reasons

> >why maybe i SHOULD take the antibiotic.

>

> :

>

> I know it's a hard decision. I DO have some experience in this

> area, and if it were me (or one of my kids) I'd do the antibiotic.

> Reasons:

>

> 1. Long-term jaw and nasal infections are nothing to fool around

> with. They can permanently damage the the tissue, and heck,

> you KNOW you have damaged tissue at this point.

>

> 2. Also you KNOW your system wasn't able to fight the infection on

> it's own (or you wouldn't have it in the first place). It is harder

> for your body to fight a " sealed off " infection, but like you

> point out, the antibiotics manage to get in there. So, for whatever

> reason, your body isn't good, right now, at fighting this one. And

> your body is in worse shape now because it has to recover from

> the surgery.

>

> 3. One reason for the penicillin is that during jaw surgery,

> the buggies go all over your body and can cause infections

> in totally unrelated places. Sometimes in the heart even, which

> is rather fatal (mostly in people with heart murmurs).

>

> 4. Since your wound was open, there is always the chance

> of your picking up a really *bad* bug at the dentist's office.

> I know they are careful, but it happens, and the ones in

> the office are worse than the ones you have at home.

> There have been some very, very bad cases lately of

> hospital infections, and once they get going they are very

> difficult to stop.

>

> 5. There have been cultures who took long-term

> antibiotics, namely tetracycline, which occurred in their beer!

> Most probiotic foods do contain antibiotics, which tend

> to kill the " enemies " of the microbes that make that chemical.

> Penicillin is the antibiotic produced by a certain kind of mold.

>

> As for the " gut ripping " part ... a lot of that can be avoided

> by taking good probiotics (kefir especially), and avoiding

> some of the harder-to-digest foods. Which foods those

> are probably depends on your biology: but for ME broths are

> usually ok, as are rare meats, and whole fruits and

> rice for me (but not anything baked or fried). Of course

> if it were me I'd be taking my Pascalite too. (Some people

> use the clay as a compress in the mouth against the wound,

> which might make it heal quicker too and draw out any

> toxins that are there). If you can take any probiotic foods,

> try the pills (they are pricey, but they worked for me before

> I discovered kefir).

>

> There are other more natural antibiotics, but it's likely

> that the ones that would be really effective against

> your jaw might still set your gut off, plus this really isn't

> a good time to experiment. I have a relative who has

> been undergoing *months* of surgery to get rid of

> a bone infection that spread to most of her lower

> jaw. Nasty stuff.

>

> Colloidal silver might work, but you might want

> to check with your holistic doc to see what

> kind of effectiveness it has in this instance, and

> what dose etc. would be needed.

>

> Heidi Jean

August 12, 2005

At the end of this ...

> >

> > >i have been thinking and praying my guts out about this and i

> don't

> > >know what to do. i am LEANING toward not getting the penicillin

> > >prescription filled...but i'm not sure, as i put it in God's

hands

> > >before bed and when i woke up this morning, i thought of two

> reasons

> > >why maybe i SHOULD take the antibiotic.

> >

> > :

> >

> > I know it's a hard decision. I DO have some experience in this

> > area, and if it were me (or one of my kids) I'd do the antibiotic.

> > Reasons:

> >

> > 1. Long-term jaw and nasal infections are nothing to fool around

> > with. They can permanently damage the the tissue, and heck,

> > you KNOW you have damaged tissue at this point.

> >

> > 2. Also you KNOW your system wasn't able to fight the infection on

> > it's own (or you wouldn't have it in the first place). It is

harder

> > for your body to fight a " sealed off " infection, but like you

> > point out, the antibiotics manage to get in there. So, for

whatever

> > reason, your body isn't good, right now, at fighting this one. And

> > your body is in worse shape now because it has to recover from

> > the surgery.

> >

> > 3. One reason for the penicillin is that during jaw surgery,

> > the buggies go all over your body and can cause infections

> > in totally unrelated places. Sometimes in the heart even, which

> > is rather fatal (mostly in people with heart murmurs).

> >

> > 4. Since your wound was open, there is always the chance

> > of your picking up a really *bad* bug at the dentist's office.

> > I know they are careful, but it happens, and the ones in

> > the office are worse than the ones you have at home.

> > There have been some very, very bad cases lately of

> > hospital infections, and once they get going they are very

> > difficult to stop.

> >

> > 5. There have been cultures who took long-term

> > antibiotics, namely tetracycline, which occurred in their beer!

> > Most probiotic foods do contain antibiotics, which tend

> > to kill the " enemies " of the microbes that make that chemical.

> > Penicillin is the antibiotic produced by a certain kind of mold.

> >

> > As for the " gut ripping " part ... a lot of that can be avoided

> > by taking good probiotics (kefir especially), and avoiding

> > some of the harder-to-digest foods. Which foods those

> > are probably depends on your biology: but for ME broths are

> > usually ok, as are rare meats, and whole fruits and

> > rice for me (but not anything baked or fried). Of course

> > if it were me I'd be taking my Pascalite too. (Some people

> > use the clay as a compress in the mouth against the wound,

> > which might make it heal quicker too and draw out any

> > toxins that are there). If you can take any probiotic foods,

> > try the pills (they are pricey, but they worked for me before

> > I discovered kefir).

> >

> > There are other more natural antibiotics, but it's likely

> > that the ones that would be really effective against

> > your jaw might still set your gut off, plus this really isn't

> > a good time to experiment. I have a relative who has

> > been undergoing *months* of surgery to get rid of

> > a bone infection that spread to most of her lower

> > jaw. Nasty stuff.

> >

> > Colloidal silver might work, but you might want

> > to check with your holistic doc to see what

> > kind of effectiveness it has in this instance, and

> > what dose etc. would be needed.

> >

> > Heidi Jean

Well, , I didn't want to snip anything, that's why I *forced*

you to scroll down all the way. Hope you aren't too tired.

I am very glad you made a decision. In broad terms, I do second Heidi

Jean. In addition, I beg you to consider the following, too:

I would take a seven-day vacation, in other words, during the

following seven days, I would *neglect*, if possible with my family's

consent and approval, my usual routine and chores and concentrate on

self-healing. That would mean, among other things:

1. Sleeping and resting as much as possible.

2. Doubling your intake of fresh water.

3. Sunbathing or basking in the early morning sun (5 to 10min, if you

aren't used to it).

4. Walking in the woods.

5. Ending your daily shower with cold water.

6. Indulging in daydreaming or mental visualizations about self-

healing.

7. Listening to music or birds' songs in nature.

8. Following a monodiet. A possible scheme would be this one (I know

you don't enjoy cooking, but maybe this time you could try and face

it...):

* breakfast - cooked apples (smash them into a purée)

* lunch - vegetable soup (cook your favourite veggies - carrots,

celery, maybe potatoes, etc until very tender, season to your taste)

* 4 PM snack - one grated raw apple

* dinner - vegetable soup (like midday)

9. Not worrying and taking it easy.

10. And last but not least - this is especially for you: Remembering

that God tempers the wind to the shorn lamb.

Best wishes,

José

August 12, 2005

Frequently, one antibiotic will make you sick to your stomach and another

one won't. It's not JUST because they kill the good bugs. I have had dogs

who puked themselves sick on, say, cephalexin but didn't blink an eye on

cipro or amoxicillin or whatever.

Call your endo, tell him the abx are making you sick, and ask if there's an

alternative drug. It might suit your gut a bit better.

Good luck!

Christie

Caber Feidh ish Deerhounds

Holistically Raising Our Dogs Since 1986

http://www.caberfeidh.com/

http://www.doggedblog.com/

August 12, 2005

>i'll deal with it...and do the probiotic stuff i always do both

>during and after...as always. hopefully this will be the LAST TIME

>EVER.

>

>thanks so much heidi!!!!!!

>

>i owe you one! :-)

>

>laura

You are welcome ... and I second what everyone else said too!

Get lots of rest, take it easy ... and checking into a different

antibiotic isn't a bad idea either. Penicillin in particular seems to

give some people problems and it's a common allergen.

Heidi Jean

August 12, 2005

>

> Well, , I didn't want to snip anything, that's why I *forced*

> you to scroll down all the way. Hope you aren't too tired.

well, jose carlos, i certainly am wiped out today...but never too

tired to scroll down, for you!!

>

> I am very glad you made a decision. In broad terms, I do second

Heidi

> Jean. In addition, I beg you to consider the following, too:

>

> I would take a seven-day vacation, in other words, during the

> following seven days, I would *neglect*, if possible with my

family's

> consent and approval,

I'LL ASK THEM!

my usual routine and chores and concentrate on

> self-healing. That would mean, among other things:

>

> 1. Sleeping and resting as much as possible.

SOUNDS GREAT!

> 2. Doubling your intake of fresh water.

TOUGH ONE.

> 3. Sunbathing or basking in the early morning sun (5 to 10min, if

you

> aren't used to it).

LOVE THE SUN...IN SMALL AMOUNTS. (FAIR SKIN)

> 4. Walking in the woods.

IF IT'S NOT TOO HOT! TODAY IT'S UNBEARABLE. IT WAS TOO HOT EVEN AT

THE POOL! i thought i might feel better today if i went to the pool

for a little while...

> 5. Ending your daily shower with cold water.

REALLY? IN THE SUMMER I TAKE COOL SHOWERS ANYWAY.

> 6. Indulging in daydreaming or mental visualizations about self-

> healing.

NOT A PROBLEM! especially the daydreaming part.

> 7. Listening to music or birds' songs in nature.

I NEED SOME GOOD MUSIC...IF ANYONE HAS ANY SUGGESTIONS...

> 8. Following a monodiet.

I'M ALMOST FOLLOWING ONE ANYWAY...IT'S MY 'COW DIET'...RAW KEFIR, RAW

YOGURT, RAW MILK, EXTRA RAW CREAM WHEREVER POSSIBLE, RAW GROUND BEEF.

A possible scheme would be this one (I know

> you don't enjoy cooking, but maybe this time you could try and face

> it...):

>

JC AS MUCH AS I LOVE YOU...I DON'T THINK NOW IS THE TIME TO FACE IT!!

I WANT TO COOK EVEN LESS THAN EVER RIGHT NOW! (I KNOW YOU

UNDERSTAND...)

> * breakfast - cooked apples (smash them into a purée)

> * lunch - vegetable soup (cook your favourite veggies - carrots,

> celery, maybe potatoes, etc until very tender, season to your taste)

> * 4 PM snack - one grated raw apple

> * dinner - vegetable soup (like midday)

>

(PLUS I AM SO NOT INTO PLANT FOOD ANY MORE THESE DAYS...JUST THE

OCCASIONAL BERRY OR PIECE OF WATERMELON OR RARE SALAD OR COOKED

VEG...IN A RESTAURANT!)

> 9. Not worrying and taking it easy.

NOT WORRYING...A CHALLENGE. TAKING IT EASY...UNFORTUNATELY COMES TOO

NATURALLY TO ME.

> 10. And last but not least - this is especially for you:

Remembering

> that God tempers the wind to the shorn lamb.

THANKS JC...VERY, VERY SWEET, KIND AND CARING OF YOU!!!!!

laura in nj

August 12, 2005

> Frequently, one antibiotic will make you sick to your stomach and

another

> one won't. It's not JUST because they kill the good bugs. I have

had dogs

> who puked themselves sick on, say, cephalexin but didn't blink an

eye on

> cipro or amoxicillin or whatever.

>

> Call your endo, tell him the abx are making you sick, and ask if

there's an

> alternative drug. It might suit your gut a bit better.

>

> Good luck!

>

> Christie

Christie you are so right...the gut ripping one he prescribed i was

WARNED about by both the endodontist and the pharmacist, and should

have called either when it happened. it was a well known (to them),

vile characteristic of that particular antibiotic...but instead i

just went easier on the dose (one less pill a day) and when it got

really bad, i only had a few pills left but felt i should stop. so i

did. and was glad i did.

laura

August 12, 2005

>

> >i'll deal with it...and do the probiotic stuff i always do both

> >during and after...as always. hopefully this will be the LAST

TIME

> >EVER.

> >

> >thanks so much heidi!!!!!!

> >

> >i owe you one! :-)

> >

> >laura

>

> You are welcome ... and I second what everyone else said too!

> Get lots of rest, take it easy ... and checking into a different

> antibiotic isn't a bad idea either. Penicillin in particular seems

to

> give some people problems and it's a common allergen.

>

> Heidi Jean

Heidi, dh just left to go take the ds to his tae kwon do, and get the

prescription filled...so i'll just bite the bullet, take the

penicillin and look forward to the full speed ahead (many) probiotics

that i take. it'll be hard not to cut the course short this

time...as much as i know it's a big no-no...and in light of that long

post you typed out to me...which i am more appreciative of than i can

say (i was agonizing over the decision...such a dilemma...and you

made it for me. what you said made so much sense.) i will probably

finish the course. i fully intend to.

thanks again, heidi.

laura

August 12, 2005

>which i am more appreciative of than i can

>say (i was agonizing over the decision...such a dilemma...and you

>made it for me. what you said made so much sense.) i will probably

>finish the course. i fully intend to.

>

>thanks again, heidi.

>

>laura

I think it would be a harder decision if you have major

reactions to the stuff. I've never actually *reacted* to

antibiotics ever, in my life. Mind you I was in a constant state

of diarrhea anyway, so maybe I never noticed! One of my

kids really did need them though, and they gave him horrid

diaper rash til we discovered kefir.

One GOOD thing to think about though: some doctors

are using antibiotics to wipe out the gut bacteria on purpose,

then reseeding the gut with better bacteria, for people with

long term gut problems. So you can maybe view this as a

sort of opportunity?

Heidi Jean

August 13, 2005

>

> >which i am more appreciative of than i can

> >say (i was agonizing over the decision...such a dilemma...and you

> >made it for me. what you said made so much sense.) i will

probably

> >finish the course. i fully intend to.

> >

> >thanks again, heidi.

> >

> >laura

>

> I think it would be a harder decision if you have major

> reactions to the stuff. I've never actually *reacted* to

> antibiotics ever, in my life. Mind you I was in a constant state

> of diarrhea anyway, so maybe I never noticed! One of my

> kids really did need them though, and they gave him horrid

> diaper rash til we discovered kefir.

>

> One GOOD thing to think about though: some doctors

> are using antibiotics to wipe out the gut bacteria on purpose,

> then reseeding the gut with better bacteria, for people with

> long term gut problems. So you can maybe view this as a

> sort of opportunity?

>

> Heidi Jean

heidi funny you should say that...i was taking the garden of life

primal defense very enthusiastically til someone here said they

caused cancer or whatever in some people...so i finished the bottle i

had of them during i think my last round of antibiotics...this round

being my third round in 3 months!!! my thinking was, well, if the

primal defense is bad, then the antibiotics will kill them and i'll

just start over with something else.

also i remember reading what i think Suze wrote, that antibiotics had

made her gluten intolerant or something...but i was wondering, if

you 'reseed' immediately after the course of antibiotics is

completed, maybe the yeast/fungi or whatever don't have as much a

change to proliferate to the point of making one gluten intolerant if

one happens to not be gluten intolerant to begin with.

i have 2 pills left of Natures Biotics, soil organism pills, so i

guess i have to order more now.

i ordered them to begin with because i didn't think all the kefir and

etc. in my life was enough because of my symptoms. i don't know.

anyway.

laura

August 13, 2005

>heidi funny you should say that...i was taking the garden of life

>primal defense very enthusiastically til someone here said they

>caused cancer or whatever in some people...so i finished the bottle i

>had of them during i think my last round of antibiotics...this round

>being my third round in 3 months!!! my thinking was, well, if the

>primal defense is bad, then the antibiotics will kill them and i'll

>just start over with something else.

That's a good point: how does one know what probiotic

is good? I've had great results with kefir (on top of

a LOT of diet experimentation!) but I haven't actually

researched the individual products.

>also i remember reading what i think Suze wrote, that antibiotics had

>made her gluten intolerant or something...but i was wondering, if

>you 'reseed' immediately after the course of antibiotics is

>completed, maybe the yeast/fungi or whatever don't have as much a

>change to proliferate to the point of making one gluten intolerant if

>one happens to not be gluten intolerant to begin with.

I think Suze and I disagree on that one (we've been arguing it

off and on on GFCFNN). I tend to think that the folks who

are going to be gluten intolerant start being so in toddlerhood ...

the allergy waxes and wanes, based on hormones, health of the

immune system, and various other stuff that is going on. But

in blood tests, the % of people who react positively doesn't

get BIGGER the older they are, which implies (to me anyway)

that it's the same percent of people. *Symptoms* do come

and go though, and a person can suddenly get sick where

they weren't before. Which is what happened to me when

I got pregnant ... I was feeling fine before that. Looking back

to my earlier years though, it's clear enough to me that I was

having some reaction and didn't digest food well. There really

isn't a good way to tell without testing because there usually

are no symptoms until a person gets really sick (kinda like diabetes).

Candida " looks " a lot like gluten though, to the immune system,

so it does make sense that a candida infection could make

the immune system more reactive, kind of like the straw that

broke the camel's back?

OTOH Suze talked to someone from Dr. Fine's office who

has a different opinion, and he's a smart dude, so I don't know

exactly what the research is showing these days!

But in any case you are correct: reseeding is a VERY good

idea. If you don't reseed with something desireable,

chances are something undesirable will take hold, esp.

if your digestion isn't %100.

>i have 2 pills left of Natures Biotics, soil organism pills, so i

>guess i have to order more now.

>

>i ordered them to begin with because i didn't think all the kefir and

>etc. in my life was enough because of my symptoms. i don't know.

Hard to say. Probiotics won't fix, say, a real lack of digestion,

which is what happens to a lot of people (lack of stomach HCL,

lack of some enzymes, eating foods humans just don't handle

well, and of course my favorite, villi that have been destroyed

by gluten).

Take care ... right now, work on relaxing and getting better. I think

you are experimenting and thinking a lot, you'll figure

out what you need.

>

Heidi Jean

August 13, 2005

>

> That's a good point: how does one know what probiotic

> is good? I've had great results with kefir (on top of

> a LOT of diet experimentation!) but I haven't actually

> researched the individual products.

heidi, someone posted over on rawdairy an 'article' about Nature's

Biotics...it really was a was long ad but very informative. i think

i posted it here a few months ago. it sounded a lot like the story

behind the garden of life primal defense as told by jordan rubin in

his books. now of course he said the primal defense was healing and

would help with a lot of problems...but it turned out that tumors or

masses in the abdomen or cancer or something was the result...so i

can't vouch for nature's biotics. maybe i ought to just stick to

food.

>

> Candida " looks " a lot like gluten though, to the immune system,

> so it does make sense that a candida infection could make

> the immune system more reactive, kind of like the straw that

> broke the camel's back?

wow, i didn't know that; i had no idea what the connection was

between yeast/fungi and gluten intolerance. i had no idea it was

because the yeast look like gluten to the body...so it would make

sense then that the body would attack both...i guess leading to the

intolerance? the body attacks it in the same way it might attack a

virus or something rather than just digesting it? doesn't make sense

100% to me.

>>

> Hard to say. Probiotics won't fix, say, a real lack of digestion,

heidi, my understanding of probiotics is, from reading that Nature's

Biotics ad/article (just google it) is that we're SUPPOSED to be

LADEN with good bact. in the gut...and we're not. that this good

bact. is supposed to help us digest...that's one of the purposes.

but because of our diets and the environment (eg chlorine in drinking

water, swimming pools, flourine in water and toothpaste, etc. etc.

that keep killing the good bact, or keep them at lower levels than

needed) NONE of us ever has enough of the good bact...and they keep

dying because of aforesaid diet and environment reasons. and so we

never really achieve the levels our ancestors had, that they needed,

and that we still need. these bact. are supposed to do so much...get

rid of undigested food, etc. etc. and cure manifold diseases such as

arthritis, etc. It REALLY was a fascinating article/ad!! so i

ordered the stuff...and you're supposed to work up to 6 or 9 pills or

something over 6 mo. and then go on maintenance of maybe 3 pills a

day, i don't remember. but i ran out and am not sure i'm going to

order more...they're not cheap. anyway.

> which is what happens to a lot of people (lack of stomach HCL,

> lack of some enzymes, eating foods humans just don't handle

> well, and of course my favorite, villi that have been destroyed

> by gluten).

which leads me to a question: my mom, in her 60's, had to have part

of her colon removed...she had diverticulitis and then a perforation

and almost died. then they removed part of her guts and her gall

bladder and now can't digest fats; she gets real sick if she eats

fatty foods.

what caused diverticulosis to begin with? the pockets...that become

inflamed and become diverticulitis, and then this perforation...is is

leaky gut? is it villi destroyed by...whatever? maybe gluten?

anyway.

>

> Take care ... right now, work on relaxing and getting better. I

think

> you are experimenting and thinking a lot, you'll figure

> out what you need.

thanks heidi...i'm just taking it easy and eating mostly raw dairy,

raw meat, coc. oil and kombucha. with some 'real food' thrown in now

and then.

started the penicillin last night...i feel SO MUCH BETTER after you

answered my long anguished post...and i feel at peace taking the

penicillin now. i will forever be grateful to you heidi...thanks

again. your answer was exactly what i needed. :-)

laura

August 13, 2005

:

>heidi, someone posted over on rawdairy an 'article' about Nature's

>Biotics...it really was a was long ad but very informative. i think

>i posted it here a few months ago. it sounded a lot like the story

>behind the garden of life primal defense as told by jordan rubin in

>his books. now of course he said the primal defense was healing and

>would help with a lot of problems...but it turned out that tumors or

>masses in the abdomen or cancer or something was the result...so i

>can't vouch for nature's biotics. maybe i ought to just stick to

>food.

I just use what seems to work for me: I figure my body knows

if it likes it or not. My body does not like kombucha: it loves kefir!

Barley grass doesn't get along with me at all, so I've never tried

primal defense. (yeah I know it's fermented and it's GRASS,

but the same holds true for malt in beer and that doesn't

get along with me either. Sprouted grains do have grass-protein

in them, and I guess my body doesn't like grass-protein

either).

>

>wow, i didn't know that; i had no idea what the connection was

>between yeast/fungi and gluten intolerance. i had no idea it was

>because the yeast look like gluten to the body...so it would make

>sense then that the body would attack both...i guess leading to the

>intolerance? the body attacks it in the same way it might attack a

>virus or something rather than just digesting it? doesn't make sense

>100% to me.

The immune system basically exists to attack microbes. It's really

GOOD at attacking microbes, which is why we don't get sick

as often as we would otherwise. Sometimes the immune system

gets mixed up and thinks your body tissue looks like a microbe

and you get " autoimmune disease " . In the case of gluten, some

researchers think that one of the peptide strings which happens

to be very indigestible looks like the peptides in candida that candida

uses to " stick " to your intestines. If that is true, then it makes

perfect sense why your immune system would attack it ... the

question is, why don't ALL immune systems attack it? One answer

might be that the only people who go into all-out war against that peptide

seem to be the ones who have one of 3 genes (which is about 40%

of the population, depending on the country).

Another answer might be breastfeeding, which seems to train

the immune system in what to attack more exactly. And the

age at which gluten gets introduced, and how much of it

is in the diet. And possibly/probably other factors and genes.

But the research is just getting started: most of what I've read

is still speculation.

One thing, though, I've found helpful is to compare it to latex

allergy. Most kids can handle balloons and go to the doctor and

get prodded with rubber gloves and never, ever, develop

latex allergy (at least to the point they notice it). But one

of those kids can become a surgeon, and wear rubber gloves

daily, and suddenly get massive latex allergy.

Similarly, most kids and surgeons who are in the hospital and are around LOTS

of latex, never develop an allergy either. But some portion

of them will, because they are around so darn much latex.

Once they get allergic, small amounts of latex can be fatal

to them. But those same kids would probably be ok if

they were around the normal amount of balloons, underwear,

etc. So the children's hospitals have taken the intelligent

approach of banning latex in the hospital ... silicone works

fine for gloves etc ... thus saving both the hospital staff

and the kids from inadvertant latex allergy.

So why does latex allergy " suddenly " get bad? Partly the

answer is that it doesn't always " suddenly " get bad ... the person

might be having a slight reaction for years that gets worse

and worse. Like bee stings, there is a cumulative effect for

some people. Or, the exposure might occur when the immune

system is fighting something else (like a virus, or surgery). But

it IS clear that large amounts of latex over large amounts of

time will induce latex allergy in a certain percentage of the

population (presumably because latex is enough like some

microbe that the immune system thinks it is a microbe), while

other people just will never have a problem with it.

With gluten, every kid in the US is inundated with LOTS of gluten

from the time they eat their first cracker, so the ones

that would tend to become allergic tend to do so rather

quickly. Gluten allergy doesn't have many symptoms though,

for most people, kind of like diabetes and high blood pressure.

>

>heidi, my understanding of probiotics is, from reading that Nature's

>Biotics ad/article (just google it) is that we're SUPPOSED to be

>LADEN with good bact. in the gut...and we're not. that this good

>bact. is supposed to help us digest...that's one of the purposes.

>but because of our diets and the environment (eg chlorine in drinking

>water, swimming pools, flourine in water and toothpaste, etc. etc.

>that keep killing the good bact, or keep them at lower levels than

>needed) NONE of us ever has enough of the good bact...and they keep

>dying because of aforesaid diet and environment reasons. and so we

>never really achieve the levels our ancestors had, that they needed,

>and that we still need. these bact. are supposed to do so much...get

>rid of undigested food, etc. etc. and cure manifold diseases such as

>arthritis, etc. It REALLY was a fascinating article/ad!!

Part of the problem with a lot of information these days is

that it IS from ads! Actually I have a slightly different take.

A lot of the bacteria that really seem to help digestion

just don't live a long time in the intestine. The original research

on probiotics, if you look at the history, was focused on

societies that ate lots of, say, yogurt. The yogurt eaters were

more healthy. Now some of the best bacteria, they found,

only survive a day or two in the gut: they aren't " normal "

residents of human digestive tracts. But most societies in

the past ingested LOTS of live bacteria, usually in the form

of some drink or fermented food.

Even more fascinating, some of the research has found

that even DEAD bacteria made mice more healthy. I.e.

they took something like yogurt and killed the bacteria and

fed that to mice, testing against live yogurt and water.

I think similar experiments have been done with people too.

I dearly love my kefir bacteria, but their good effect goes

away after 3 days or so (which was the same as I found

for probiotic pills, and matches the research I've read).

I don't worry about this: most human societies drank their

probiotics daily, and there is a LOT off stuff in those

probiotic drinks (AKA beer) that *isn't* bacteria too: antifungals,

antibacterials, minerals, vitamins (esp. , antitumor agents.

There are some good bacteria that do colonize the gut,

and it would be useful to get those when you have

few bacteria. But I'd question why anyone would

need them on a daily basis if in fact they live there.

Everyone DOES have bacteria though ... the bulk of what

constitutes a stool is dead bacteria, and most people have

more bacteria in their guts than they have cells in their

whole body. The florine and chlorine etc. aren't strong

enough to kill them off, really.

>

>what caused diverticulosis to begin with? the pockets...that become

>inflamed and become diverticulitis, and then this perforation...is is

>leaky gut? is it villi destroyed by...whatever? maybe gluten?

Gluten intolerance will absolutely destroy the villi, AND it causes

leaky gut (by promoting the body to produce zonulin). Other

factors can also cause the villi to get destroyed, but I'm

not as familiar with them. Diverticulosis is a different thing

though ... I suspect that it, like a whole host of other gut

problems, *might* be triggered by gluten intolerance. But

it's fairly easy to test for gluten intolerance to rule it out,

if that's the question. The problem is that at this point in

time, very few doctors will do the tests, which is why

I keep harping on it.

> thanks heidi...i'm just taking it easy and eating mostly raw dairy,

>raw meat, coc. oil and kombucha. with some 'real food' thrown in now

>and then.

>

>started the penicillin last night...i feel SO MUCH BETTER after you

>answered my long anguished post...and i feel at peace taking the

>penicillin now. i will forever be grateful to you heidi...thanks

>again. your answer was exactly what i needed. :-)

I hope your body is feeling better now too!

Heidi Jean

August 13, 2005

>

> I just use what seems to work for me: I figure my body knows

> if it likes it or not. My body does not like kombucha: it loves

kefir!

heidi...this may sound like an idiotic question...but how do you

KNOW?? i mean, you obviously go by how you feel, but what? energy

level? gas? mood? feeling 'good'? feeling 'bad'? i don't know.

sometimes i think i have NO IDEA how foods affect me. i used to be

on a group online... HAD to keep a food/feelings journal so you could

figure out how different foods made you feel...i absolutely refused.

i tried at times but lasted one meal, or maybe 2 on a good day. just

couldn't do it. or wouldn't. it seemed like too much of a

pain...despite the benefits.

> Barley grass doesn't get along with me at all, so I've never tried

> primal defense. (yeah I know it's fermented and it's GRASS,

heidi i didn't know that primal defense had fermented grass in it!

or it's made up of mostly fermented grass??

> but the same holds true for malt in beer and that doesn't

> get along with me either. Sprouted grains do have grass-protein

> in them, and I guess my body doesn't like grass-protein

> either).

soo...to continue my question...how do you know? gas? can't think

straight? feel lousy?

>

> Another answer might be breastfeeding, which seems to train

> the immune system in what to attack more exactly.

do you mean...breast feeding is more protective? less of an auto

immune response to gluten? or maybe you're not saying that.

> A lot of the bacteria that really seem to help digestion

> just don't live a long time in the intestine. The original research

> on probiotics, if you look at the history, was focused on

> societies that ate lots of, say, yogurt. The yogurt eaters were

> more healthy. Now some of the best bacteria, they found,

> only survive a day or two in the gut: they aren't " normal "

> residents of human digestive tracts. But most societies in

> the past ingested LOTS of live bacteria, usually in the form

> of some drink or fermented food.

heidi this is interesting...i was under the impression that the good

bact. take up residence, and as long as conditions are favorable will

multiply to their hearts content and just...stay. and some pass thru.

>

> Even more fascinating, some of the research has found

> that even DEAD bacteria made mice more healthy. I.e.

> they took something like yogurt and killed the bacteria and

> fed that to mice, testing against live yogurt and water.

> I think similar experiments have been done with people too.

very interesting...

>

> I dearly love my kefir bacteria, but their good effect goes

> away after 3 days or so (which was the same as I found

> for probiotic pills, and matches the research I've read).

> I don't worry about this: most human societies drank their

> probiotics daily, and there is a LOT off stuff in those

> probiotic drinks (AKA beer) that *isn't* bacteria too: antifungals,

> antibacterials, minerals, vitamins (esp. , antitumor agents.

>

> There are some good bacteria that do colonize the gut,

> and it would be useful to get those when you have

> few bacteria. But I'd question why anyone would

> need them on a daily basis if in fact they live there.

well...i was wondering this too.

> Everyone DOES have bacteria though ... the bulk of what

> constitutes a stool is dead bacteria,

it's not still alive? i thought they just lived in the gut and some

traveled all the way thru...but what would kill them?

and most people have

> more bacteria in their guts than they have cells in their

> whole body. The florine and chlorine etc. aren't strong

> enough to kill them off, really.

really? so you think that's bunk?>

> >

> Gluten intolerance will absolutely destroy the villi, AND it causes

> leaky gut (by promoting the body to produce zonulin).

heidi i thought leaky gut was caused by yeast (maybe turning into

larger fungus or something) growing so large they grew large 'things'

that penetrated out the gut thus creating the holes of the 'leaky

gut'. i don't remember where i heard this. maybe it has more than

one cause?

Other

> factors can also cause the villi to get destroyed,

this is going to really sound stupid...but is this really a horrible

thing? do the villi absorb nutrients or help move food along or

both? is it possible we just lose villi with age?>

>

> I hope your body is feeling better now too!

well... after the wonderful rare burger i had tonight, with the

unpasteurized beer (Schneider Weiss...wheat beer) and spending time

with the dh...and having gone to the beach today for a little while

(the best time of the day, after 3 pm or so) and the mouth not

hurting as much today...i'm actually feeling better than usual!

thanks, heidi.

laura

August 14, 2005

>> I just use what seems to work for me: I figure my body knows

>> if it likes it or not. My body does not like kombucha: it loves

>kefir!

>

>heidi...this may sound like an idiotic question...but how do you

>KNOW?? i mean, you obviously go by how you feel, but what? energy

>level? gas? mood? feeling 'good'? feeling 'bad'? i don't know.

I WISH you (or anyone) would ask " idiotic " questions because

those are the kind that make me feel intelligent. Hardly

ever happens though :--(

Keeping a food diary helps. However, in my case if I eat

something my body doesn't like, I get a fairly obvious reaction.

Like:

1. Migraines/eyesight problems. That's what I got with kombucha.

2. Feeling suddenly " cold " ... cold hands, anxiety too. That is a classic

immune reaction (think chills when you get a cold). I get that from milk.

3. Itchy skin. I get that from gluten (and anything made with barley).

4. Fast heartbeat. I get that from some foods, but I'm not sure why

sometimes. It's a sign your body doesn't like the food though.

Getting diarrhea or constipation the next day can be a sign too,

or canker sores. Or gas. Everyone is different. A lot of people (probably

the majority) don't get ANY symptoms, except that their immune system

doesn't work well. That's why TESTING is a good idea.

>sometimes i think i have NO IDEA how foods affect me. i used to be

>on a group online... HAD to keep a food/feelings journal so you could

>figure out how different foods made you feel...i absolutely refused.

>i tried at times but lasted one meal, or maybe 2 on a good day. just

>couldn't do it. or wouldn't. it seemed like too much of a

>pain...despite the benefits.

Ah. So you know the concept. Maybe your brain is in denial.

> heidi i didn't know that primal defense had fermented grass in it!

>or it's made up of mostly fermented grass??

I don't know how much barley grass it has in it. I react

to barley grass, so I never tried PD (plus it costs money,

and kefir beer is basically free). The claim is that since the

barley grass is GRASS, not grain, and it's fermented, it's ok.

I have no idea if that is true or not: and in any event it might

depend on the person (a lot of people are allergic to grass

too: as in " hay fever " ).

>

>soo...to continue my question...how do you know? gas? can't think

>straight? feel lousy?

Beer ... or wine made with beer yeast which is grown in barley ...

makes me itch all over and get cold. Also I get little sores

that break out and itch like crazy. My kefir beer (also made

with hops, but no barley) is fine.

>

>do you mean...breast feeding is more protective? less of an auto

>immune response to gluten? or maybe you're not saying that.

Right. Breast feeding is VERY protective. Though not absolutely so:

some babies get sick from the gluten in the mother's milk. Other

babies seem to learn to handle gluten, if they start eating it WHILE

breastfeeding. The whole area needs a lot more research.

>heidi this is interesting...i was under the impression that the good

>bact. take up residence, and as long as conditions are favorable will

>multiply to their hearts content and just...stay. and some pass thru.

There is a lot of research done on it. I'd encourage you to

read for yourself.

> it's not still alive? i thought they just lived in the gut and some

>traveled all the way thru...but what would kill them?

Bacteria don't live very long in the best of times, but they

tend to be cyclic. Even in kraut: one bacteria type

overpopulates, eats all of ITS food, then other type

takes over, eats the residue of the first batch and

produces different output. Then a third batch takes

over ...

A simple model of this is wine. Here is a simplified view:

1. Fruit is pulped.

2. Yeast eat sugar. Produce alcohol.

3. Bacteria eat alcohol. Produce vinegar (acetic acid)

4. Other bacteria eat acetic acid. Produce sweet vinegar (balsamic).

>really? so you think that's bunk?>

Not TOTAL bunk. People today generally have

a very poor bacterial mix, but a lot of that has to do with

the kind of food we eat, eating too much, taking antibiotics, and the LACK

of probiotic foods like lactofermented beer and yogurt.

I can tell you that our family went swimming daily in a highly chlorinated

pool AND was on antibiotics at the time, and did fine gutwise. That

was on a diet very high in kefir and low in indigestible foods.

> heidi i thought leaky gut was caused by yeast (maybe turning into

>larger fungus or something) growing so large they grew large 'things'

>that penetrated out the gut thus creating the holes of the 'leaky

>gut'. i don't remember where i heard this. maybe it has more than

>one cause?

Probably does have more than one cause, but Dr. Fasano's

work on zonulin is really, really compelling to me. Other things

besides gluten promote zonulin production, but in my mind

it's the " smoking gun " ... no one could figure out before why

an otherwise intact gut would leak so much.

>Other

>> factors can also cause the villi to get destroyed,

>

>this is going to really sound stupid...but is this really a horrible

>thing? do the villi absorb nutrients or help move food along or

>both? is it possible we just lose villi with age?>

Villi regenerate within a month or at most a year or two ... they

grow REALLY FAST. Kind of like your mouth heals fast if you

bite your cheek. That makes it unlikely, to me, that they just

" wear down " . OTOH they've shown in vitro how the immune

system attacks and destroys them, in some people (even babies).

And yes, it's a horrible thing. It means your body can't absorb

nutrients, even if you are eating a very nutritious diet. People

with this problem are malnourished ... anemic, low in calcium,

vitamin D etc. ... even IF they are eating a good diet. Also

they sometimes have lots of gas and diarrhea, but not always.

They also have a greater chance of getting cancer and a mess

of other diseases. Overall the death rate is twice as high as for

unaffected people, though the " villi damage " doesn't kill

anyone directly.

>well... after the wonderful rare burger i had tonight, with the

>unpasteurized beer (Schneider Weiss...wheat beer) and spending time

>with the dh...and having gone to the beach today for a little while

>(the best time of the day, after 3 pm or so) and the mouth not

>hurting as much today...i'm actually feeling better than usual!

Oooh, you live near a beach? How nice!

>

Heidi Jean

August 14, 2005

At 11:26 PM 8/13/05 -0700, you wrote:

>I WISH you (or anyone) would ask " idiotic " questions because

>those are the kind that make me feel intelligent. Hardly

>ever happens though :--(

*sigh*

I've been forgotten already.

*sniffle sob*

MFJ

Everything connects. The universe is not THAT chaotic. Beauty can

still be found in the most amazing places.

August 15, 2005

> 3. Itchy skin. I get that from gluten (and anything made with

barley).

from time to time i itch a lot, heidi, like for a few hours then it

goes away. i had no idea it might have something to do with food...i

had no idea what it was.

> 4. Fast heartbeat. I get that from some foods, but I'm not sure why

> sometimes. It's a sign your body doesn't like the food though.

i've heard about that...take your pulse, eat something, then take

your pulse again...but i don't remember what the diff. is supposed to

be, at the very least, if you're allergic to the food you eat in

between pulses.

>

Maybe your brain is in denial.

probably. head in the sand approach seems to be the favorite of my

particular psychology....but don't know how to escape denial. i

think i probably like denial actually. it 'feels' better than

actually knowing something you don't want to know.

> There is a lot of research done on it. I'd encourage you to

> read for yourself.

i would have no idea where to begin. then there's the motivation

factor...i have absolutely no inclination whatsoever to research

anything.

>

>> Bacteria don't live very long in the best of times, but they

> tend to be cyclic.

i never understood that...bacteria multiply by splitting. so which

is the older one and which is the newer one? eventually some will

die...but some always continue to live, right?

Even in kraut: one bacteria type

> overpopulates, eats all of ITS food, then other type

> takes over, eats the residue of the first batch and

> produces different output. Then a third batch takes

> over ...

yes, i think i've heard that...

>

> A simple model of this is wine. Here is a simplified view:

>

> 1. Fruit is pulped.

> 2. Yeast eat sugar. Produce alcohol.

> 3. Bacteria eat alcohol. Produce vinegar (acetic acid)

> 4. Other bacteria eat acetic acid. Produce sweet vinegar (balsamic).

very interesting. so that's how real balsamic is made...

>

> I can tell you that our family went swimming daily in a highly

chlorinated

> pool AND was on antibiotics at the time, and did fine gutwise. That

> was on a diet very high in kefir and low in indigestible foods.

well...i guess the kefir really does work then. maybe i'll try just

relying on that and just forget the dirt pills.

>

> Probably does have more than one cause, but Dr. Fasano's

> work on zonulin is really, really compelling to me. Other things

> besides gluten promote zonulin production, but in my mind

> it's the " smoking gun " ... no one could figure out before why

> an otherwise intact gut would leak so much.

>

i should look up this zonulin thing.

>

> Villi regenerate within a month or at most a year or two ... they

> grow REALLY FAST.

i had no idea. that is very comforting.

Kind of like your mouth heals fast if you

> bite your cheek. That makes it unlikely, to me, that they just

> " wear down " . OTOH they've shown in vitro how the immune

> system attacks and destroys them, in some people (even babies).

>

> And yes, it's a horrible thing. It means your body can't absorb

> nutrients, even if you are eating a very nutritious diet. People

> with this problem are malnourished ... anemic, low in calcium,

> vitamin D etc. ... even IF they are eating a good diet. Also

> they sometimes have lots of gas and diarrhea, but not always.

> They also have a greater chance of getting cancer and a mess

> of other diseases. Overall the death rate is twice as high as for

> unaffected people, though the " villi damage " doesn't kill

> anyone directly.

sounds pretty scary.>

>

> Oooh, you live near a beach? How nice!

well...not exactly. i wish. grew up going to the jersey shore every

summer for a couple weeks...i love the beach almost more than i love

life itself. but dh grew up NOT going to the beach...is not a beach

person. ds is 14 and doesn't care much for the beach... We've been

married 18 years and the beach longing has never gone away...i didn't

go much these 18 years so as not to push it on dh. but not going has

not made ds a beach person either these last 14 years...and so i have

recently put my foot down and said, we're going to the beach.

i 'can't take' not being at a beach anymore...it is such a part of me

and almost a 'need'. dh goes to please me and seems to enjoy it, ds

complains to the point where i hate even telling him we're going, but

once he gets there he's fine.

there is something healing about the beach...i have problems with

anxiety and depression and wonder how much of it is my own thought

processes lately. the beach takes all that away...and i feel

unbelievably fantastic for several hours after we leave, until the

next day when the anxiety and depression return and i want to go back

to the beach...but i never go 2 days in a row. unfortunately. i

spend a lot of time in the water, or on the sand just looking at the

water and listening to the surf. very healing. all 5 senses...yes,

i like the taste of the ocean water. and the feel of just lying in

the sand with no chair or blanket in between. i think the beach is a

miraculous place.

but to actually answer your question...the nearest beach to where we

are in n. central nj is a little over an hour away but it's just

aross the bay pretty much from NYC so that is not preferable. with

no traffic we can go to a barrier island state park that is heaven in

an hour and a half...but with traffic it's over 2 h which is what it

took on sat. i don't know where everyone is going at 2 pm on a very

hot sat. afternoon...we get there as people are starting to leave.

we only stay for a couple hours (that's as long as dh and son can

stand it) so we're in the car for a total of 3-5 h both ways just to

be on the beach for 2 h. i'd go by myself, and i do sometimes, but i

don't like to go by myself all the time...i like to have dh and son

along. and i'm hoping they'll eventually fall in love with the beach.

i have a dear friend who lives a few blocks away from the beach but

because she knows she can go anytime she wants, we usually don't go

when i go to visit her and that is a major disappointment. i don't

want to ask her to go to the beach...i don't want her to think that's

why i came, cuz it's not. but it would be nice to do both...see her

and go to the beach. but i can't say that to her.

anyway.

laura

August 15, 2005

>> 3. Itchy skin. I get that from gluten (and anything made with

>barley).

>

>from time to time i itch a lot, heidi, like for a few hours then it

>goes away. i had no idea it might have something to do with food...i

>had no idea what it was.

[Heidi] Yeah, I always thought mine was fleas. Invisible fleas. I

even get little " bite marks " . Accused various dogs and cats

and used all kinds of junk on them to get rid of the fleas,

but to no avail. Now I find out it's dermatitis herpetiformis.

Oy vey.

>> 4. Fast heartbeat. I get that from some foods, but I'm not sure why

>> sometimes. It's a sign your body doesn't like the food though.

>

>i've heard about that...take your pulse, eat something, then take

>your pulse again...but i don't remember what the diff. is supposed to

>be, at the very least, if you're allergic to the food you eat in

>between pulses.

[Heidi] It's best if you avoid the food for a week, then eat a bunch

of it in one sitting. Take your resting pulse before and after.

If you react to the food, it will go up by 10 pts or so. My heartbeat

was ALWAYS in the 90's though, prior to these last few years,

it just never went down. These days I can tell if I react to

a meal and my heart really does race after. That doesn't say

WHY you react to a meal though.

probably. head in the sand approach seems to be the favorite of my

>particular psychology....but don't know how to escape denial. i

>think i probably like denial actually. it 'feels' better than

>actually knowing something you don't want to know.

[Heidi] Yep. Denial is actually a good survival strategy in

a lot of situations.

> i would have no idea where to begin. then there's the motivation

>factor...i have absolutely no inclination whatsoever to research

>anything.

[Heidi] Seriously? Wow. I guess I'm the opposite. One of my

bigger problems in life is that, if I go anywhere near a library,

I'm lost for hours. Google I have to keep under wraps or

I just don't get any work done.

>i never understood that...bacteria multiply by splitting. so which

>is the older one and which is the newer one? eventually some will

>die...but some always continue to live, right?

They tend to overpopulate then starve to death ... some survive

by forming spores or going dormant or whatever. Buy you

have a good point, it's not an " old age " thing.

>

>well...i guess the kefir really does work then. maybe i'll try just

>relying on that and just forget the dirt pills.

BTW " dirt pills " in the sense of Pascalite work for me for

various digestive issues. Haven't thought about them

in terms of antibiotics, but it might work: it seems to

push the bacterial mix in the right direction.

>

>there is something healing about the beach...i have problems with

>anxiety and depression and wonder how much of it is my own thought

>processes lately. the beach takes all that away...and i feel

>unbelievably fantastic for several hours after we leave, until the

>next day when the anxiety and depression return and i want to go back

>to the beach...but i never go 2 days in a row. unfortunately. i

>spend a lot of time in the water, or on the sand just looking at the

>water and listening to the surf. very healing. all 5 senses...yes,

>i like the taste of the ocean water. and the feel of just lying in

>the sand with no chair or blanket in between. i think the beach is a

>miraculous place.

We used to go to the beach a lot when I was a kid and

I know how you feel. It IS a very comforting place! Cheaper

than a psychologist too. The vitamin D you get from the

sun actually does help your moods too.

People with food

allergies (esp. the gluten one) tend to be low in calcium

and D, and that affects your moods, plus the blood

flow and serotonin get messed up too. Other issues

(like surgery) can mess those things up also. Anyway, if

you get your health in order you will probably find that

the anxiety and depression lift too. I had both for about

20 years, now they are rarely an issue.

If your dh doesn't like the beach though, maybe you can

find a girlfriend that does?

>but to actually answer your question...the nearest beach to where we

>are in n. central nj is a little over an hour away but it's just

>aross the bay pretty much from NYC so that is not preferable. with

>no traffic we can go to a barrier island state park that is heaven in

>an hour and a half...but with traffic it's over 2 h which is what it

>took on sat. i don't know where everyone is going at 2 pm on a very

>hot sat. afternoon...we get there as people are starting to leave.

We used to camp down at Malibu so we could just be near the

beach. Maybe there are campgrounds nearer the beach there

too? (Saving up for a Caribbean vacation is cool too ...)

>i have a dear friend who lives a few blocks away from the beach but

>because she knows she can go anytime she wants, we usually don't go

>when i go to visit her and that is a major disappointment. i don't

>want to ask her to go to the beach...i don't want her to think that's

>why i came, cuz it's not. but it would be nice to do both...see her

>and go to the beach. but i can't say that to her.

Why exactly can't you say that to her? I sure would. People tend

to LIKE being needed and LIKE being helpful. I'd probably say

something like " You know, I REALLY need some beach time

and some girl time ... you think we could get together this

weekend? I'll bring some grub and help out ... " . That gives

her an opening to ask YOU for a favor too, of course, but

most people like that balance. Or you could say that your online

folks said you need more Vit D and seaside to help you heal from your surgery

and you think it would be a win-win if you could combine the

healing time with talk time with her. Girl talk-time is very

healing also!

>

Heidi Jean

August 16, 2005

>

> [Heidi] Yeah, I always thought mine was fleas. Invisible fleas. I

> even get little " bite marks " . Accused various dogs and cats

> and used all kinds of junk on them to get rid of the fleas,

> but to no avail. Now I find out it's dermatitis herpetiformis.

> Oy vey.

so...it has a name. anything 'special' about dermatitis

herpetiformis you feel like writing about, defining or whatever?

> >

> [Heidi] It's best if you avoid the food for a week, then eat a

bunch

> of it in one sitting. Take your resting pulse before and after.

> If you react to the food, it will go up by 10 pts or so.

thanks for that...now i remember my practitioner saying that, years

ago. if it goes up 10 beats per minute...

> [Heidi] Yep. Denial is actually a good survival strategy in

> a lot of situations.

that explains a lot about people, actually. why people don't act in

certain situations when they should...because they are in denial

about it.

>

> [Heidi] Seriously? Wow. I guess I'm the opposite. One of my

> bigger problems in life is that, if I go anywhere near a library,

> I'm lost for hours. Google I have to keep under wraps or

> I just don't get any work done.

yes, seriously! i guess you ARE the opposite! i can't imagine what

must be like to actually FEEL LIKE researching things! i was a bio

major in college and when it came down to actually deciding what to

do with my degree...of course research came to mind but it sounded so

boring whether it was research in the lab or researching background

literature, scientific publications...i was afraid i would be a

miserable failure if i went into that field because i would hate it.

actually i took a job doing roach control research...remember the

roach motel? my job was to try different attractants and glues. i

hated it...and after 2 or 3 months i got fired before i could quit.

it was actually working with the roaches themselves that was the

worst...a roach colony has the most disgusting smell of anything i've

ever smelled, even the worst animal excrement. i was relieved to be

fired but wish i had quit first.

that was when i started waitressing at this great restaurant where

rich and i worked...he worked in the kitchen. it's still a great

restaurant...we eat there often and our ds (14) recently applied for

job as bus boy. i worked there for 5 years and LOVED

waitressing...til i burned out on it. now my thing is driving...i

drive for 2 farms, part time.

>

> They tend to overpopulate then starve to death ... some survive

> by forming spores or going dormant or whatever. Buy you

> have a good point, it's not an " old age " thing.

so that explains it then.>

> >

> BTW " dirt pills " in the sense of Pascalite work for me for

> various digestive issues. Haven't thought about them

> in terms of antibiotics, but it might work: it seems to

> push the bacterial mix in the right direction.

i guess i should read up on it. or maybe i should just get some.

> > >

> >there is something healing about the beach...i have problems with

> >anxiety and depression and wonder how much of it is my own thought

> >processes lately. the beach takes all that away...and i feel

> >unbelievably fantastic for several hours after we leave, until the

> >next day when the anxiety and depression return and i want to go

back

> >to the beach...but i never go 2 days in a row. unfortunately. i

> >spend a lot of time in the water, or on the sand just looking at

the

> >water and listening to the surf. very healing. all 5

senses...yes,

> >i like the taste of the ocean water. and the feel of just lying

in

> >the sand with no chair or blanket in between. i think the beach

is a

> >miraculous place.

>

> We used to go to the beach a lot when I was a kid and

> I know how you feel. It IS a very comforting place! Cheaper

> than a psychologist too.

never thought of it that way!

> People with food

> allergies (esp. the gluten one) tend to be low in calcium

> and D, and that affects your moods, plus the blood

> flow and serotonin get messed up too. Other issues

> (like surgery) can mess those things up also. Anyway, if

> you get your health in order you will probably find that

> the anxiety and depression lift too. I had both for about

> 20 years, now they are rarely an issue.

you'd think i eat enough raw dairy to get plenty of calcium and vit.

D...and i take CLO. i go thru 2 gal milk myself each week, plus

yogurt, plus butter, plus cheese.

>

> If your dh doesn't like the beach though, maybe you can

> find a girlfriend that does?

well...i do have them but it's more of a hassle, no one lives right

here. it's easier to just get in the car and GO. but i'll find a

girlfriend to take if i just get too lonely going alone. i used to

go to the beach by myself all the time...but it's more more fun when

dh and son some along.

>

> We used to camp down at Malibu so we could just be near the

> beach. Maybe there are campgrounds nearer the beach there

> too? (Saving up for a Caribbean vacation is cool too ...)

never been to the caribbean...i'm not sure i want to go actually. if

i go anywhere i want to go NORTH where it's cooler. maine, canada,

whatever.

there aren't too many campgrounds near the beach here...went to one

once in my 20's...we went to the closest one we could find but it

still was like a half hour to the beach when you consider parking,

walking, etc.

nj is the most densely pop. state in the nation...and the beaches can

be unbearably crowded. it can be a real pain.

>

> >i have a dear friend who lives a few blocks away from the beach

but

> >because she knows she can go anytime she wants, we usually don't

go

> >when i go to visit her and that is a major disappointment. i

don't

> >want to ask her to go to the beach...i don't want her to think

that's

> >why i came, cuz it's not. but it would be nice to do both...see

her

> >and go to the beach. but i can't say that to her.

>

> Why exactly can't you say that to her?

i guess i'm afraid to be honest but maybe not saying it is actually a

form of dishonesty on my part...she's a dear, dear long time friend

who is recently a widow (5 years or so)...and she's a little older

than me and more of a mother figure actually, a close friend who's

almost more of a mother figure. i just don't want her to feel like

she has to go to the beach on my account with me if she doesn't feel

like it. so i would rather she suggest it...but she doesn't. so i

don't either. i figure if she wanted to go...she would say so.

people who live at or near the beach are usually accosted by all

manner of relatives and friends who want to stay with you more

because of where you live rather than because they want to see

you...that happened to me one summer when i had a job on cape cod.

people would say they wanted to come visit, can i bring a friend...i

couldn't say no, they would come and then leave me to go do what they

felt like doing...it was awful, just awful. i was having a hard time

emotionally so i was so happy to hear from a friend who wanted to

come visit...but then i ended up feeling used and so in the end i was

even worse off emotionally. i remember crying and crying after she

left. anyway. had i been there longer i would have learned to say

no, or are you coming to see me or hang out at the beach with your

friend but just want a free place to stay? live and learn, right?

I sure would. People tend

> to LIKE being needed and LIKE being helpful.

yes, but...i guess i'm 'sensitive' to the 'being used' part and don't

want her to feel that way at all...not in the least. even if i'm

dying to go to the beach!!!

I'd probably say

> something like " You know, I REALLY need some beach time

> and some girl time ... you think we could get together this

> weekend? I'll bring some grub and help out ... " . That gives

> her an opening to ask YOU for a favor too, of course, but

> most people like that balance. Or you could say that your online

> folks said you need more Vit D and seaside to help you heal from

your surgery

> and you think it would be a win-win if you could combine the

> healing time with talk time with her. Girl talk-time is very

> healing also!

i'll think about that...maybe there's a way to approach it, like,

mary, i'm going to the beach today...would you like to go too and

i'll join you at your beach? or would you rather do something else

today and i'll go to the beach park down the coast from you and we'll

get together another day?

> >

laura

August 16, 2005

>so...it has a name. anything 'special' about dermatitis

>herpetiformis you feel like writing about, defining or whatever?

Oh, it's not " special " especially, just itches like crazy.

It is these TEENY TINY dots which you'd never notice

except for the itching.

>that explains a lot about people, actually. why people don't act in

>certain situations when they should...because they are in denial

>about it.

According to some philospher/researchers, humans HAVE

to be in denial to survive. If you actually thought about all the

risks you live with daily you'd go nuts, or be paralyzed with

fear. Plus a BIG part of our brain is devoted to " screening out "

extraneous data. People who don't do that screening can't

function well (it's a big part of autism, lack of screening).

So denial is kinda like the immune system: you must have it,

but when it's functioning incorrectly it causes problems.

>that was when i started waitressing at this great restaurant where

>rich and i worked...he worked in the kitchen. it's still a great

>restaurant...we eat there often and our ds (14) recently applied for

>job as bus boy. i worked there for 5 years and LOVED

>waitressing...til i burned out on it. now my thing is driving...i

>drive for 2 farms, part time.

Now you see, I had a job waitressing and lasted all of a month!

I was a lousy waitress too. I still have nightmares about it.

> you'd think i eat enough raw dairy to get plenty of calcium and vit.

>D...and i take CLO. i go thru 2 gal milk myself each week, plus

>yogurt, plus butter, plus cheese.

Some people don't absorb calcium well, even from milk.

> well...i do have them but it's more of a hassle, no one lives right

>here. it's easier to just get in the car and GO. but i'll find a

>girlfriend to take if i just get too lonely going alone. i used to

>go to the beach by myself all the time...but it's more more fun when

>dh and son some along.

Some things are more fun with a family, but only if the rest

of the family LIKES them. Some things my dh just doesn't like

to do, so I go with the kids or someone else.

>

>people who live at or near the beach are usually accosted by all

>manner of relatives and friends who want to stay with you more

>because of where you live rather than because they want to see

>you...that happened to me one summer when i had a job on cape cod.

>people would say they wanted to come visit, can i bring a friend...i

>couldn't say no, they would come and then leave me to go do what they

>felt like doing...it was awful, just awful. i was having a hard time

>emotionally so i was so happy to hear from a friend who wanted to

>come visit...but then i ended up feeling used and so in the end i was

>even worse off emotionally. i remember crying and crying after she

>left. anyway. had i been there longer i would have learned to say

>no, or are you coming to see me or hang out at the beach with your

>friend but just want a free place to stay? live and learn, right?

It's good to learn to discuss these things more openly. I had

a relative who had a pool, same thing. But we basically said

so ... " Why don't we all meet at your house ... you have the pool! " .

> I sure would. People tend

>> to LIKE being needed and LIKE being helpful.

>

>yes, but...i guess i'm 'sensitive' to the 'being used' part and don't

>want her to feel that way at all...not in the least. even if i'm

>dying to go to the beach!!!

So ask her how she feels about it. I think YOUR emotional

needs count for something too, and it can be a win-win.

People mainly feel " used " if they get nothing out of the deal

or it's something they don't want anyway. But if you don't

feel comfortable staying with her, then motels are good too.

>

>i'll think about that...maybe there's a way to approach it, like,

>mary, i'm going to the beach today...would you like to go too and

>i'll join you at your beach? or would you rather do something else

>today and i'll go to the beach park down the coast from you and we'll

>get together another day?

>> >

>laura

That's probably the socially appropriate approach!

Heidi

August 17, 2005

> >that explains a lot about people, actually. why people don't act in

> >certain situations when they should...because they are in denial

> >about it.

>

> According to some philospher/researchers, humans HAVE

> to be in denial to survive. If you actually thought about all the

> risks you live with daily you'd go nuts, or be paralyzed with

> fear. Plus a BIG part of our brain is devoted to " screening out "

> extraneous data. People who don't do that screening can't

> function well (it's a big part of autism, lack of screening).

>

> So denial is kinda like the immune system: you must have it,

> but when it's functioning incorrectly it causes problems.

>

Hello Heidi Jean:

I felt like saying this, though I am not sure whether it is relevant.

You talk about living in denial. Perhaps the most common, obvious

denial is death denial. Not that I want to sound morbid, but don't most

of us live as if we were going to live for ever, as if we could play a

dirty trick on death? That we are mortal and that our time is running

shorter and shorter is a thought we are always ready to shun or make

little of.

JC

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