re: concrete moisture sealer

[Guest guest]

The best vapor seal for concrete is made by Dependable and called Vapor Seal. Beware as all with all products there are limitations and can only be applied if proper moisture readings have been taken prior to installation. Manufacturer will warrant there produce, including anything applied to the floor including tile or carpeting. Any questions check there web site.

[Guest guest]

You have a couple issues that need to be

assessed first:

1.

Is the

concrete a (a) capillary source of moisture (rising damp) or ( a potential water

vapor issue?

Also,

does it have rebar??

2.

Will the

concrete be allowed a drying period before coating?

3.

The metallic

foil (probably Aluminum) acts as a vapor barrier in the wall. Unfortunately,

being on the drywall on the cold (conditioned side) of the wall in a cooling

climate (Florida)

will create a long-term condensation issue. You need to know the wall

construction and you should model it using MOIST or WUFI before proceeding. [Note:

metallic foils on drywall work fine in the north (when properly designed/installed)]

If you want a coating for the concrete, you

need to know the answer to 1.

For a – a sparge coating or mastic

or other waterproofing on the outside based on the on-site conditions.

For b – a low perm but not a barrier

(>1 to 5 perm) so as not to trap moisture or create spalling or create

excess head pressure in the concrete

If there is rebar, you need to assess the

corrosion at this point. There are ASTM polarization and impedance

methods to do this non-destructively.

Tony

.......................................................................

" Tony " Havics,

CHMM, CIH, PE

pH2, LLC

5250 E US

36, Suite 830

Avon, IN

46123

off

fax

cell

90% of Risk Management is knowing where to

place the decimal point...any consultant can give you the other 10%(SM)

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From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of ryan sherry

Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007

8:42 PM

To: iequality

Subject: concrete

moisture sealer

The residence is in south

florida with

a drainage problem resulting in saturated soils on the perimeter of the house.

Bottom of drywall has been water damaged. Drainage improvement measures

will be taken, but I would like to recommend that the bottom four feet of

concrete block walls and floors be sealed to prevent moisture vapor

intrusion. I am looking for some insight from somebody that has had

success at using specific products.

Additionally, the existing drywall on the perimeter walls contains a mettalic

foil backing. Has anybody had any projects where this type of drywall on

perimeter walls resulted in condensation of backside of drywall.

Thanks in advance for any help.

Sherry, CMC

Southern Sciences, Inc.

[Guest guest]

Thanks Tony, Please see my responses in red below. Tony Havics wrote: You have a couple issues that need to be assessed first: 1. Is the concrete a (a) capillary source of moisture (rising damp) or ( a potential water vapor issue? Saturated Ground Also, does it have rebar?? Concrete Slab, do not know if rebar. Wall are block 2. Will the concrete be allowed a drying period before coating? I can not be sure it will 3. The metallic foil (probably Aluminum) acts as a vapor barrier in the wall. Unfortunately, being on the drywall on the cold (conditioned side) of the wall in a cooling climate (Florida) will create a long-term

condensation issue. You need to know the wall construction and you should model it using MOIST or WUFI before proceeding. [Note: metallic foils on drywall work fine in the north (when properly designed/installed)] Where does one get the MOIST or WUFI program? If you want a coating for the concrete, you need to know the answer to 1. For a – a sparge coating or mastic or other waterproofing on the outside based on the on-site conditions. For b – a low perm but not a barrier (>1 to 5 perm) so as not to trap moisture or create spalling or create excess head pressure in the concrete If there is rebar, you need to assess the corrosion at this point. There are ASTM polarization and impedance methods to do this non-destructively. Tony ...................................................................... "Tony" Havics, CHMM, CIH, PE pH2, LLC 5250 E US 36, Suite 830 Avon, IN 46123 (317)

718-7020 off fax cell 90% of Risk Management is knowing where to place the decimal point...any consultant can give you the other 10%(SM) This message is from pH2. This message and any attachments may contain legally privileged or confidential information, and are intended only for the individual or entity identified above as the addressee. If you are not the addressee, or if this message has been addressed to you in error, you are not authorized to read, copy, or distribute this message and any attachments, and we ask that you please delete this message and attachments (including all copies) and notify the sender by return e-mail or by phone at . Delivery of this message and any attachments to any person other than the intended

recipient(s) is not intended in any way to waive confidentiality or a privilege. All personal messages express views only of the sender, which are not to be attributed to pH2 and may not be copied or distributed without this statement. From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of ryan sherry Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 8:42 PM

To: iequality Subject: concrete moisture sealer The residence is in south florida with a drainage problem resulting in saturated soils on the perimeter of the house. Bottom of drywall has been water damaged. Drainage improvement measures will be taken, but I would like to recommend that the bottom four feet of concrete block walls and floors be sealed to prevent moisture vapor intrusion. I am looking for some insight from somebody that has had success at using specific products. Additionally, the existing drywall on the

perimeter walls contains a mettalic foil backing. Has anybody had any projects where this type of drywall on perimeter walls resulted in condensation of backside of drywall. Thanks in advance for any help. Sherry, CMC Southern Sciences, Inc.

[Guest guest]

> You have a couple issues that need to be assessed first:

>

> 1. Is the concrete a (a) capillary source of

moisture (rising damp) or ( a potential water vapor issue?

Saturated Ground

> Also, does it have rebar?? Concrete Slab, do not know if

rebar. Wall are block

> 2. Will the concrete be allowed a drying period

before coating? I can not be sure it will

> 3. The metallic foil (probably Aluminum) acts

as a vapor barrier in the wall. Unfortunately, being on the drywall

on the cold (conditioned side) of the wall in a cooling climate

(Florida) will create a long-term condensation issue. You need to

know the wall construction and you should model it using MOIST or

WUFI before proceeding. [Note: metallic foils on drywall work fine

in the north (when properly designed/installed)] Where does one get

the MOIST or WUFI program?

>

> If you want a coating for the concrete, you need to know the

answer to 1.

>

> For a – a sparge coating or mastic or other waterproofing on the

outside based on the on-site conditions.

> For b – a low perm but not a barrier (>1 to 5 perm) so as not to

trap moisture or create spalling or create excess head pressure in

the concrete

>

> If there is rebar, you need to assess the corrosion at this

point. There are ASTM polarization and impedance methods to do this

non-destructively.

>

> Tony

> ................................................................

.......

> " Tony " Havics, CHMM, CIH, PE

> pH2, LLC

> 5250 E US 36, Suite 830

> Avon, IN 46123

> off

> fax

> cell

>

> 90% of Risk Management is knowing where to place the decimal

point...any consultant can give you the other 10%(SM)

>

>

> This message is from pH2. This message and any attachments may

contain legally privileged or confidential information, and are

intended only for the individual or entity identified above as the

addressee. If you are not the addressee, or if this message has been

addressed to you in error, you are not authorized to read, copy, or

distribute this message and any attachments, and we ask that you

please delete this message and attachments (including all copies) and

notify the sender by return e-mail or by phone at .

Delivery of this message and any attachments to any person other than

the intended recipient(s) is not intended in any way to waive

confidentiality or a privilege. All personal messages express views

only of the sender, which are not to be attributed to pH2 and may not

be copied or distributed without this statement.

>

>

> ---------------------------------

>

> From: iequality

[mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of ryan sherry

> Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 8:42 PM

> To: iequality

> Subject: concrete moisture sealer

>

>

> The residence is in south florida with a drainage problem

resulting in saturated soils on the perimeter of the house. Bottom of

drywall has been water damaged. Drainage improvement measures will

be taken, but I would like to recommend that the bottom four feet of

concrete block walls and floors be sealed to prevent moisture vapor

intrusion. I am looking for some insight from somebody that has had

success at using specific products.

>

> Additionally, the existing drywall on the perimeter walls

contains a mettalic foil backing. Has anybody had any projects where

this type of drywall on perimeter walls resulted in condensation of

backside of drywall.

>

> Thanks in advance for any help.

>

>

> Sherry, CMC

> Southern Sciences, Inc.

>

The foil is probably a radiant backing wich is used to reflect

infrared radiation away from the structure. Condensation occurs when

water vapor contacts a surface below the ambient dewpoint of the

air. Measurement of the backing side of the drywall with a sruface

contact temperature measuring device (such as a thermocouple) up and

down the length of the drywall will assess the thermal uniformity.

If uniform, then condensation should not be related to any

particular segment of the drywall surface. If water staining is

observed over the entire elevation of the drywall, then condensation

could be running down the foil backing. Additionally, cold air

intrusion from the interior could be occuring through protrusions

in the interior wall surface such as junction boxes. This may very

well cause condensation. The lower water vapor levels in the

environment during the winter months may render psychrometric

measurements invalid. The problem may have been occuring during the

warmer months.

Hoe this helps.

Jeff Deuitch

Microbiologist

Administrator, the IAQforum

www.iaqforum.net

[Guest guest]

Our " sick house " was the result of saturated ground wicking up through

slab/stemwalls (in California). After first drainage fix (which turned out to

be inadequate) we removed 100% of carpet from downstairs, then installed a vinyl

flooring type moisture barrier. Unfortunately, the effect was to concentrate

the moisture coming up into the walls and especially under the house's extensive

cabinetry -- in effect, concentrating the contaminants the water was bringing

into the house. The moisture barrier held, but its intended effect was not

achieved.

Based on that experience, and realizing that your local conditions are different

from ours (but high groundwater isn't that different from the perched water we

were dealing with), I'd recommend a focus on drainage and drying out. At the

risk of beating my dead horse again, " the drains must be deeper than the wicking

height of the soil, below the slab and stemwalls, even if you have to pump to

achieve this. "

Steve Chalmers

stevec@...

----------------------

1a. concrete moisture sealer

Posted by: " ryan sherry " ryanshrry@... ryanshrry

Thu Jan 4, 2007 7:30 am (PST)

The residence is in south florida with a drainage problem resulting in saturated

soils on the perimeter of the house. Bottom of drywall has been water damaged.

Drainage improvement measures will be taken, but I would like to recommend that

the bottom four feet of concrete block walls and floors be sealed to prevent

moisture vapor intrusion. I am looking for some insight from somebody that has

had success at using specific products.

Additionally, the existing drywall on the perimeter walls contains a mettalic

foil backing. Has anybody had any projects where this type of drywall on

perimeter walls resulted in condensation of backside of drywall.

Thanks in advance for any help.

Sherry, CMC

Southern Sciences, Inc.

[Guest guest]

Steve:

Your recommendations have a lot of merit, i.e., deep drains. It is so easy and so very cheap to install a robust vapor barrier prior to concrete being poured. However, after the structure is built, it is often damn difficult to mitigate a significant water-vapor problem, and most topical treatments are only partially effective; as you experienced. In situations where the water table is high, or there is persistent soil-moisture issues, deep drains can be effective and multiple drains may be necessary. Even vertical, interceptor, drains can be effective. If the water table can be lowered immediately under the structure, soil moisture can be limited and/or mitigated. However, in locations where the source of water is infinite, the sump pumps need to run almost 24/7/365 to effect control. Beware!....In some locations this requires a discharge permit, and heaven help you if there are contaminants in the ground water, these may require treatment prior to discharging the water. Quite an expensive undertaking when the fix, pre-construction, is cheap and effective.

For what it is worth....

--

Geyer, PE, CIH, CSP

President

KERNTEC Industries, Inc.

Bakersfield, California

www.kerntecindustries.com

Our " sick house " was the result of saturated ground wicking up through slab/stemwalls (in California). After first drainage fix (which turned out to be inadequate) we removed 100% of carpet from downstairs, then installed a vinyl flooring type moisture barrier. Unfortunately, the effect was to concentrate the moisture coming up into the walls and especially under the house's extensive cabinetry -- in effect, concentrating the contaminants the water was bringing into the house. The moisture barrier held, but its intended effect was not achieved.

Based on that experience, and realizing that your local conditions are different from ours (but high groundwater isn't that different from the perched water we were dealing with), I'd recommend a focus on drainage and drying out. At the risk of beating my dead horse again, " the drains must be deeper than the wicking height of the soil, below the slab and stemwalls, even if you have to pump to achieve this. "

Steve Chalmers

stevec@... <mailto:stevec%40surewest.net>

----------------------

1a. concrete moisture sealer

Posted by: " ryan sherry " ryanshrry@... <mailto:ryanshrry%40yahoo.com> ryanshrry

Thu Jan 4, 2007 7:30 am (PST)

The residence is in south florida with a drainage problem resulting in saturated soils on the perimeter of the house. Bottom of drywall has been water damaged. Drainage improvement measures will be taken, but I would like to recommend that the bottom four feet of concrete block walls and floors be sealed to prevent moisture vapor intrusion. I am looking for some insight from somebody that has had success at using specific products.

Additionally, the existing drywall on the perimeter walls contains a mettalic foil backing. Has anybody had any projects where this type of drywall on perimeter walls resulted in condensation of backside of drywall.

Thanks in advance for any help.

Sherry, CMC

Southern Sciences, Inc.