Re: Vaccinations: Where do I begin?

[Guest guest]

, I read quite a bit on the subject and to be honest there is very

compelling evidence on the pro-vax side, as well as on the anti-vax. For me

it came down to the fact that every other kid i know these days has asthma,

severe allergies, eczema, and so on and so on. These are all immune related

diseases. I decided not to vax bc i feel in today's toxic environment kids'

immune systems don't need anymore hits than they already get in day-to-day

life.

Elaine

[Guest guest]

Hi -

I am completely against vaccination as I don't see that it has any

benefits. I do not believe vaccinations give immunity (they DO

sometimes give your body a chronic case of the disease which your

boday never gets to cope with so your immune system stays stressed).

They've also been linked to a series of diseases and complications

including asthma, arthritis, autism, etc. Please make sure you do all

your research before you vaccinate (if you so decide). You can always

give a shot at a later date but you may never be able to reverse the

damage. There are a couple great on the subject,

including this one:

www./vaccinations

Happy researching!

On 5/31/05, <jessclaire@...> wrote:

> As many of you know, I'm having a baby in December. Naturally, I need

> some really well-researched and balanced information about

> vaccinations. I'm not sure what to do, really. I know there are

> major problems with vaccines, but everyone I know is vaccinated

> (including myself) and we all seem fine. Does anyone on this list

> feel that some vaccines are beneficial? Would you vaccinate again, if

> given the choice?

[Guest guest]

I don't vax but i repeatedly read first-hand accounts of people doing

medical work in impoverished villages and seeing death rates of children go

down once vaxes are introduced and so on and so forth. I think they must

provide immunity, even though they may rob the person of health in other

areas.

Elaine

> I am completely against vaccination as I don't see that it has any

> benefits. I do not believe vaccinations give immunity

[Guest guest]

>> I do not believe vaccinations give immunity (they DO

sometimes give your body a chronic case of the disease which your

boday never gets to cope with so your immune system stays stressed). <<

I know that people talking about human vaccinations say this ALL THE TIME...

because they don't do actual challenge studies in humans. But we not only do

challenge studies in animals, they are REQUIRED for the licensing of animal

vaccines, and they do indeed induce specific immunity, at least, within the

confines of the label claim. Modified live virus vaccines for the common

canine viruses, for instance, provide such good immunity that once

immunized, you're immune for life to that virus.

There are plenty of problems to consider with vaccination, but this myth

that they don't induce immunity is not something we can maintain if we look

at other species for ten seconds.

Christie

Caber Feidh ish Deerhounds

Holistically Raising Our Dogs Since 1986

http://www.caberfeidh.com

http://doggedblog.com

[Guest guest]

>

My kids were vaccinated before I even knew there was

an issue! They are basically fine kids, though both are

gluten intolerant (as are me and their Dad). I'm not sure

what all the issues are. I'm really glad they have NOT

had the diseases I had as a kid (like measles!).

I have biases on both sides. My Mom grew up in an era

when polio was epidemic, and she made sure we always

got our flu shots (and we never got the flu, probably

as a result). I've read the science too. My guess is that

there is a link between some other autoimmune condition

(like gluten intolerance, which causes the body to produce

zonulin, which breaks down the blood/brain barrier) and

the reactions to the shots. A similar situation exists with

food poisoning: a HUGE number of people, for instance,

ingested Odwalla juices which were contaminated

with ecoli -- but 50 kids got sick. Why those 50 kids?

Probably because they had no gut bacteria to protect them

(just came off antibiotics) or because of some other

condition they had.

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

:

On circumcision. I'm Jewish and my husband is not (but is

circumcised). When I had Teddy I still hadn't officially decided but

in my heart I didn't want to do it. I was freaking out, calling

rabbis etc trying to find a justification not to circumcise. To my

visiting parents, I came up with every delay I could think of, without

telling them it wasn't going to happen. (Finally I told them in

email. They were devastated but we've moved on.) It marred my first

days with my baby, so congratulations on dealing with this now. I

decided not to circumcise but still consider him Jewish because he has

a Jewish mother. I'm not a literalist and consider Judaism an

ethnicity. I believe even among the Jews the custom is very, very

slowly going to dissapear. The good news is CA is probably at the

forefront of that (though there are Jews against it in Israel too!).

But today most Jews won't accept it. The toughest part is him not

looking like his cousins and the implication there's something wrong

with my nephew (who is). I don't know how it will be for my son when

he's older and getting bar mitzvahed etc. I do know I couldn't make

the decision for him, to cut off part of his body.

On vaccinations: Even tougher, believe it or not. He's had shots

twice, at 2 months and 6 months before airplane travel. They were to

protect against meningitis and also the dpt. I don't keep up with the

boosters and he hasn't had polio shot. I take him to two docs: Dr.

Landsman (somewhat alternative) and Dr. Cowan of WAPF. Dr. Cowan is

against vaccinations (but not vehemently. I think he used to

vaccinate.). Dr. Landsman recommends a limited course and delays the

polio shot. I am confident she gets the best quality (no mercury). I

am doing even less than Dr. Landsman recommends because as he gets

bigger/stronger, and he's relatively sheltered, I don't feel a need.

I do worry about polio even though according to Dr. Landsman that

disease is almost completely erradicated. The book she recommends is

" What your doctor may not tell you about children's vaccinations. "

One thing I learned is there HAVE been improvements (due largely to

anti-vac crucaders). No more mecury, and the dpt is a lot safer than

it used to be. I am against chicken pox and flu and wish they'd keep

those shots away from kids as it interferes with the natural ebb and flow.

Hope this helps.

Daphne

> As many of you know, I'm having a baby in December. Naturally, I need

> some really well-researched and balanced information about

> vaccinations. I'm not sure what to do, really. I know there are

> major problems with vaccines, but everyone I know is vaccinated

> (including myself) and we all seem fine. Does anyone on this list

> feel that some vaccines are beneficial? Would you vaccinate again, if

> given the choice? I'll be living in CA and I think the law is

> relatively flexible there, but any state-specific info would be great.

> FYI--I will not be homeschooling.

>

> To put it all in context, I'm still discussing homebirth and

> circumcision with my husband. I think he's almost on board with those

> two issues (he's Jewish, so the circ. issue is complicated). I

> haven't even mentioned vaccinations to him yet, so I want to get

> educated myself before I go completely off the deep end...tee hee.

>

> TIA,

>

>

[Guest guest]

>I know that people talking about human vaccinations say this ALL THE

>TIME...

>because they don't do actual challenge studies in humans. But we not only

>do

>challenge studies in animals, they are REQUIRED for the licensing of animal

>vaccines, and they do indeed induce specific immunity, at least, within the

>confines of the label claim. Modified live virus vaccines for the common

>canine viruses, for instance, provide such good immunity that once

>immunized, you're immune for life to that virus.

>

Are they immune to the actual disease, or to the vaccination, or to both?

I remember reading that sometimes what is shown is immunity to the

vaccination, which is not always the same as immunity to the live disease,

but I have no idea if this is true or not.

[Guest guest]

>

>I don't vax but i repeatedly read first-hand accounts of people doing

>medical work in impoverished villages and seeing death rates of children go

>down once vaxes are introduced and so on and so forth.

Is this independent of other introductions, such as better nutrition and

hygiene?

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

our son is 14, very bright and very healthy, thank God, to which i

attribute nursing him til 4 and having a very low junk food household

for 95% of his life.

out of complete and total ignorance he had all his vaccinations til

the most recent one when he was 12...the school really hassled me

about it but finally they accepted the letter i wrote for

a 'religious exemption', i think the only exemption that parents in

NJ have without a doctor's note.

about circumcision...i had it done and i'll tell you why.

my dad had to be circumcised as an adult because of some kind of

problem he had. ditto with one of my best friend's teenage sons. my

husband is circumcised. so i had it done because of those three

things; i didn't want him to have problems when he grew up (tho i

know it's probably rare but i don't know) and i thought he should be

like his dad. i almost didn't want to have it done; and it made me

nervous, and sad, but i really thought it was the best decision.

laura in nj

> As many of you know, I'm having a baby in December. Naturally, I

need

> some really well-researched and balanced information about

> vaccinations. I'm not sure what to do, really. I know there are

> major problems with vaccines, but everyone I know is vaccinated

> (including myself) and we all seem fine. Does anyone on this list

> feel that some vaccines are beneficial? Would you vaccinate again,

if

> given the choice? I'll be living in CA and I think the law is

> relatively flexible there, but any state-specific info would be

great.

> FYI--I will not be homeschooling.

>

> To put it all in context, I'm still discussing homebirth and

> circumcision with my husband. I think he's almost on board with

those

> two issues (he's Jewish, so the circ. issue is complicated). I

> haven't even mentioned vaccinations to him yet, so I want to get

> educated myself before I go completely off the deep end...tee hee.

>

> TIA,

>

>

[Guest guest]

> Re: Vaccinations: Where do I begin?

>

>

>I don't vax but i repeatedly read first-hand accounts of people doing

>medical work in impoverished villages and seeing death rates of children go

>down once vaxes are introduced and so on and so forth. I think they must

>provide immunity, even though they may rob the person of health in other

>areas.

>Elaine

It's possible that the key here is that the children were *impoverished*.

IOW, their nutritional status and resultant health were likely very poor so

their immune systems probably wouldn't be able to stave of infections and

viruses without help. This is not necessarily the case with a well-nourished

WAP-raised baby.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

Hi Elaine-

I haven't read these studies that you're referring to and to be honest

I don't want to start a debate about the value of vaccinations on this

list. It's off topic here, but again I do welcome anyone who is

interested in this subject to join the vaccinations group that I

mentioned yesterday...or I would be happy to converse off list. I

promise this will be my last post to this list regarding vaccs.

I'm not sure what else was going on in these impoverished villages

when children's death rates started dropping. I think we have to look

at the whole system in place. Sanitation and access to clean water in

and of itself is a huge component in reducing deaths from disease.

And Christie, in response to your post--

I still do not believe that vaccinations equal immunity. I don't

believe this to be true for dogs & cats or humans. I know plenty of

people who have been vaccinated against certain diseases only to

acquire that same disease, either later in life or immediately after

the vaccination. I for one received the flu shot a few years ago

(before I knew better) and came down with the flu about one month

later. I also received all of my childhood vaccinations including the

MMR as a baby, but still came down w/ measles when I was 5.

I do not vaccinate my dogs but I have known dogs to die of parvo after

they have been vaccinated against it. These dogs did not receive

immunity from the shots. I think vaccinating animals or humans carry

risks that far outweigh the potential benefits of *possibly* gaining

immunity to diseases that healthy beings should be able to recover

from without medical intervention...all the while gaining *natural*

immunity from *natural* exposure.

That said, everyone's choice to vaccinate is their own and I don't

mean to criticize anyone who so chooses. I just hope that everyone

will do their own research before blindly accepting vaccinations as

*safe* and as guarantees (or even near-guarantees) of immunity.

Kind regards,

On 5/31/05, Elaine <itchyink@...> wrote:

> I don't vax but i repeatedly read first-hand accounts of people doing

> medical work in impoverished villages and seeing death rates of children go

> down once vaxes are introduced and so on and so forth. I think they must

> provide immunity, even though they may rob the person of health in other

> areas.

> Elaine

[Guest guest]

On Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:09:41 -0400

<jess426@...> wrote:

> Hi Elaine-

>

> I haven't read these studies that you're referring to and to be honest

> I don't want to start a debate about the value of vaccinations on this

> list. It's off topic here, but again I do welcome anyone who is

> interested in this subject to join the vaccinations group that I

> mentioned yesterday...or I would be happy to converse off list. I

> promise this will be my last post to this list regarding vaccs.

Oh no. Vaccinations are not off-topic on this list. They specifically

relate to health and nutrition. And even if they were the thread would

still be allowed as long as you put Off-Topic (or OT) in the subject

line.

Keep posting away.

" We are in the end talking about groups supporting

the only thing that the state does: namely roughing

people up through violence and threats of violence.

That's what every line of every regulation comes

down to. That's the meaning of every tax. That's

the whole upshot of every tariff, expenditure,

prohibition, and bomb. It all amounts to increased

use of violence in society. Strip away the banners,

songs, uniforms, and speeches: that's all that the

state really is. "

Lew Rockwell

[Guest guest]

,

We vaccinated our kids and have had no problems, ideologically nor

physically. My dd does have food allergies, like me, but if this is

due to vaccines, then why her and not my ds? They were both given

shots at the same time and by the same doctor/clinic. We did the

polio, DPT and MMR only although the school district requires others

(we homeschool). I have kept up with my vaccines, even got a tetnus

booster recently with no side effects.

There have been many outbreaks of whooping cough and cases of polio

are on the rise. Measles is always a problem here as we live in a

city with a large major university that attracts many international

unvaccinated students. One outbreak of whooping cough occured at a

Waldorf daycare (I refuse to call them pre-schools). One person got

ahold of a shot record, whited out the name, made copies and

everyone filled in their child's name. The director knew what was

going on. Then someone got whooping cough, then more and more. One

child almost died, another's sibling did die and more than 20 were

hospitalized. That's when the health department stepped in and

discovered what was up.

I wouldn't have wanted to take the chance on my child dying when I

can prevent it.

You can ask your pediatrician to spread the doses out. I know

several people locally who have had the vaccines spread out over 3

years rather than several months. My dd didn't start her vaccines

until she was almost 6 months old (by then, most babies have had at

least 2 rounds). My son's weren't on time either because I would

wait until I wanted her shots and then schedule both at the same

time.

We did NOT do the chicken pox vaccine and both of my kids have had

it as well as Fifth Disease and we are all fine. I did have rubella

as a child, but my food allergies were in place long before that and

not affected by a subsequent vaccine for measles and mumps.

Most of the literature I have seen is old, dates from the early

1970s. As recently as 3 years ago, some one was passing around a

packet at a local homeschool function and none of it was current;

the most recent was dated 1986. I wouldn't know where to direct you

for good info.

And, FWIW, my ds had a circumcision. No problems there either. I was

told he made a face, but didn't cry (I was bedridden and unable to

attend the bris).

Lauri

> As many of you know, I'm having a baby in December. Naturally, I

need

> some really well-researched and balanced information about

> vaccinations. I'm not sure what to do, really. I know there are

> major problems with vaccines, but everyone I know is vaccinated

> (including myself) and we all seem fine. Does anyone on this list

> feel that some vaccines are beneficial? Would you vaccinate

again, if

> given the choice? I'll be living in CA and I think the law is

> relatively flexible there, but any state-specific info would be

great.

> FYI--I will not be homeschooling.

>

> To put it all in context, I'm still discussing homebirth and

> circumcision with my husband. I think he's almost on board with

those

> two issues (he's Jewish, so the circ. issue is complicated). I

> haven't even mentioned vaccinations to him yet, so I want to get

> educated myself before I go completely off the deep end...tee hee.

>

> TIA,

>

>

[Guest guest]

>> Are they immune to the actual disease, or to the vaccination, or to both?

I remember reading that sometimes what is shown is immunity to the

vaccination, which is not always the same as immunity to the live disease,

but I have no idea if this is true or not.

<<

To the disease itself.

Christie

Caber Feidh ish Deerhounds

Holistically Raising Our Dogs Since 1986

http://www.caberfeidh.com

http://doggedblog.com

[Guest guest]

As many of you know, I'm having a baby in December. Naturally, I need

some really well-researched and balanced information about

vaccinations. I'm not sure what to do, really. I know there are

major problems with vaccines, but everyone I know is vaccinated

(including myself) and we all seem fine. Does anyone on this list

feel that some vaccines are beneficial? Would you vaccinate again, if

given the choice? I'll be living in CA and I think the law is

relatively flexible there, but any state-specific info would be great.

FYI--I will not be homeschooling.

To put it all in context, I'm still discussing homebirth and

circumcision with my husband. I think he's almost on board with those

two issues (he's Jewish, so the circ. issue is complicated). I

haven't even mentioned vaccinations to him yet, so I want to get

educated myself before I go completely off the deep end...tee hee.

TIA,

We have 3 kids -- and how we vaccinated was like so --

1 - In our state it is routine practice after hospital births to vaccinate

immediately after birth for Hepatitis B. They also administer the Vit K

shot(for clotting protection) and give eye drops/meds for possible Gonnorrhea

contamination in the birth canal. I declined all 3 of these. I don't, nor does

anyone in our home environment have Hep B. Our babies weren't going to be

exposed to this as infants, so I saw no reason to administer this vaccine to a

baby within moments of birth, when their immune defense mechanisms aren't

established yet. I declined the Vit K because their body naturally and

gradually builds up their clotting factors to peak after day 7 -- when,

interestingly enough, most Jewish circumcisions occur. Finally, I don't have

any STD's, so I declined the eye meds also. When given these meds, it causes

increased blurred vision for the infant, and I wanted my baby to see me !

2 - With Child #1 -- we followed the recommended pediatric schedule for

vaccines, which begin at 1 month old. I wasn't into natural health at the time,

and thankfully, she had no problems after the vacs. With Child #2 -- he had

been given antibiotics in the hospital at birth for a " suspicious fever " and

also was given vaccines starting at age 1 month. He has had numerous health

problems, especially ear infections and now food allergies. Did the vaccines

cause these illnesses/allergies? Probably not, but I think they weakened his

already low-functioning immune system, so he has become more susceptible to

illness. With Child #3 -- she too was given antibiotics at birth -- another

" suspicious " fever -- and we allowed vaccines on a delayed schedule until 18

months. Between birth and 18 months she had numerous ear infections, bronchial

infections and pneumonia. She also has food allergies. Finally at 18 months, I

refused further vacs, because I began to notice a pattern; after every vac, she

would get an upper respiratory infection/ear infection. Since stopping the

vacs, no illnesses beyond head colds.

If I did go back and do this over again with my kids, knowing what I know now,

I'd do a home birth -- no interference from hospital protocols, forced

antibiotics, etc. I did circumcise our son, as did my sister with her son, but

opted to do so on day 8 after birth. We chose to do so because there seemed to

be some small health benefit from circumcision, but little to no health benefits

from not circumcising. (My other nephew, uncircumcised, has had several

infections, despite being very hygiene conscious.) Finally, I wouldn't

vaccinate at all, or I'd do a VERY delayed vaccine schedule, waiting until age 2

to begin. Keep in mind that children now get vaccinated for about 5 times the

diseases we were vaxed for at their age. Their little developing immune systems

can't keep up with the onslaught.

If you want to do research, google vaccines, or check out the vaccine articles

on mercola's site. He has a LOT of info on it.

http://www.mercola.com/2004/dec/29/vaccination_schedule.htm

Sorry to be so long, but hope that helps.

Rebekah

[Guest guest]

>> I have known dogs to die of parvo after

they have been vaccinated against it. These dogs did not receive

immunity from the shots. <<

That's because vaccination does not equal immunization. You are confusing

the two things.

Immunization is what occurs when immunity forms in response to a vaccination

or natural infection. If that takes place, that vaccinal immunity to canine

parvovirus is permanent and virtually perfect. Only by absolutely shoving

your head in the sand and simply IGNORING the vast body of scientific

research demonstrating the overwhelming effectiveness of modified live virus

canine parvo vaccination can you make a statement that vaccination cannot

produce immunity.

The reasons that parvo vaccination can fail to produce immunity are

well-known. CPV is a disease with an extremely persistent period of maternal

antibody in puppies, and it's common for puppies to have too much maternal

antibody to be immunized and yet not enough to protect against an actual

infection. This is why so many vaccinated puppies are not immune to parvo -

their vaccines did not work due to maternal antibody interference.

New vaccines were invented designed to overcome maternal antibody, resulting

in a much higher rate of successful immunization at a younger age. However,

this is still a problem that breeders, rescue groups, and shelters contend

with - the " window " of vulnerability of young puppies to parvo.

Obviously dogs who do NOT seroconvert have not been immunized. It's just

superstition to think that we are " injecting " immunity into a dog. We

aren't. We are challenging their immune system with an antigen that has been

altered so as not to cause acute disease, but to " look " enough like the one

that does that the immune system forms antibodies and memory cells. When

that immune system reaction is triggered and completed by a modified live

viral vaccine for the four common canine viruses we vaccinate against

(parvo, distemper, heptatitis, paraninfluenza), those animals are protected

against direct challenge with the live viruses. There is no way to deny that

fact other than to do just that... deny it. But that doesn't change it.

Nor does accepting that vaccines produce immunity mean you can't also

question their safety. We have got to stop mixing up efficacy and safety in

the same thought process. I can believe parvo vaccine is effective and also

believe it's harmful.

I have managed to continue to question vaccination while still accepting

that it is effective, at least for those four viruses in dogs. I've never

had children and don't know as much about human vaccines as I do about

canine vaccines. In fact, not too long ago I had to look up whether

pertussis and diphtheria were viruses or bacteria. <G> But I have been

questioning and writing about dog and cat vaccines for nearly 20 years now,

and frankly, I'll go the mat with anyone, anytime, on this issue. Parvo

vaccine for dogs is extremely effective. Immunity has been demonstrated by

challenge with actual infection in dogs who seroconvert after vaccinations.

That is why my main crusade has been to stop the idiotic, pointless,

immunologically baseless REvaccination of dogs for viruses against which

they are already immune due to earlier, successful immunization. To debunk

the myth of " booster shots " for viruses. You cannot boost viral immunity.

You cannot make an already-immune dog " more immune. " The pre-existing

immunity acts JUST LIKE maternal antibody and wipes out the vaccine virus.

You are getting all the risk of the vaccine with zero benefit to balance it

out.

As to initial vaccination, or puppy shots.... that is a personal decision. I

have not vaccinated dogs and I have vaccinated them, and I have made certain

observations about the results of each decision. I think there is something

to be said for achieving immunity in a controlled way, and something to be

said about the harm that can result from making that choice. I don't have a

one-size-fits-all answer to the question of " should a breeder or should a

breeder not vaccinate puppies? " .

In children, what seems clear to me is that we are vaccinating them against

diseases that are simply not serious enough to warrant the risk of the

vaccines, and we are doing what we do in dogs - making up one-size-fits-all

protocols to catch non-converters, instead of vaccinating judiciously and

scientifically, only enough to get seroconversion, and no more.

Another thing that confuses this picture is that people make sweeping

statements about " vaccines " without realizing that vaccines vary a great

deal from disease to disease and product to product. For example, there are

bacterial vaccines we use in humans and in dogs, and bacterial vaccines

absolutely suck. Bacterial immunity is always temporary, whether from

natural infection or vaccination - that's why we can get strep throat over

and over, but we only get measles once. We can't mix up bacterial vaccines

and the immunity they might trigger with viral vaccines and the immunity

THEY might trigger. The two things are not comparable, with vaccination OR

natural infection.

Anyway, I could go on, but my point is simply this: If your objection to

vaccination rests on the foundation that vaccines don't work, you are only

able to base that on HUMAN studies, which are epidemiological. It's not that

you can't learn a lot from such studies, you can. It's just that there are

always a lot of confounding factors muddying the water, such as nutritional

status and other lifestyle issues. Mass vaccination often accompanies other

social changes, and those are often the real cause of the improved health

status of a population, not the vaccination that takes the credit.

But in animal studies, we can tease out the vaccine part of the equation

pretty easily, because they take special pathogen-free laboratory puppies,

vaccinate one group and not another, keep them in pathogen-free

laboratories, take blood tests to determine seroconversion in the vaccinated

group, and then challenge all the puppies with disease. They compare the

numbers of puppies in one group with the other. The rates of resistance to

those challenges among the vaccinated puppies are typically nearly 100

percent (we're talking parvo here), and ARE 100 percent among those who

seroconverted post-vaccine, and the death rate - not just the morbidity

rate, but the MORTALITY rate - among unvaccinated puppies is typically 100

percent, or very close.

Since we don't do these types of tests in humans (and frankly, I wish we

didn't do them in dogs, even while part of me is glad for the data), we get

to run around blithely making statements like " vaccines don't immunize. " We

credit improved sanitation and other social changes with reduced rates of

infectious disease, and in many cases, we quite rightly do so.

But that other set of facts from the rest of the animal kingdom is also out

there, and we really should keep it in mind when we think about, and talk

about, this issue.

Christie

Caber Feidh ish Deerhounds

Holistically Raising Our Dogs Since 1986

http://www.caberfeidh.com

http://doggedblog.com

[Guest guest]

I think Christie hit the nail on the head with some good back up. Vaccines

can be effective, and,, as we know in humans, ,they can also be dangerous or

deadly. I was recently the subject of a story on chicken pox vaccines that

made it all the way to national NPR news (it was about moms who have chicken

pox parties). I learned some things as a result of that experience that i

didn't know. One, the rate of chicken pox has gone down considerably since

the vaccine was introduced (or if children get it, it is much milder, same

with measles, etc.). Two, children DO die from chicken pox. I know bc i was

interviewed on a radio show by a talk host whose two year old died from

chicken pox. She ended up with lesions on her heart. I still won't vax for

chicken pox though.

The whooping cough story posted here is not the first i have heard and it is

one disease i am really scared of my kids getting. It is still going around.

Sure, if you eat the perfect diet, etc. your chances of not getting sick or

not getting that sick are much better. But you have to be honest with

yourself -- how perfect is your kid's diet going to be? Will they not get

cake and ice cream at the many bday parties they attend? Have you seen the

kid at bday parties who doesn't get any? I have. It is pretty depressing.

Will they not get a few Goldfish crackers that inevitably get passed around

at play dates? Will you not put them in preschool bc the food will

inevitably be sub par? Will you not let them play at friends' houses bc you

can't control what they will eat there? Will you rush out in a panic bc the

neighbor brought over a cold Hi-C juice box for them? Even Sally says it in

NT: unless you raise them in a closet or in isolation from ordinary American

life, you are going to have a hard time keeping them on a perfect diet if

they have friends, play dates, school, etc. (we will homeschool but

imperfect foods abound).

Again, I don't vax, but i am frankly sick and tired of the knee-jerk

anti-vax rhetoric. I want some honest, non-dogmatic, unemotional discussion

of the realities of this topic. Not vaxing scares me bc my kids, esp. my

extremely picky 5-year-old do not have a perfect diet. She is pretty healthy

but i'm not sure how well she'd fare with a bad case of whooping cough and i

don't even want to be in the hospital with her for that. My two-year-old is

breastfed still and that gives her a fighting chance, but then she's so

young.

In fact, i am considering selective vaxing when they both hit six years old,

which is when i've read their immune system is more developed. But the

injury rates and deaths from vaxes (and i personally know people affected)

scare me to death too. Tough business having children. We will do ANYTHING

to protect them and with the vax issue i feel we are potentially damned

either way.

Elaine

[Guest guest]

I want thank everyone for the really great discussion so far. I

obviously need to do my homework and will come to an informed, albeit

difficult, decision--luckily I have some time to mull it over.

Elaine, you really hit home with this comment:

> Again, I don't vax, but i am frankly sick and tired of the knee-jerk

> anti-vax rhetoric. I want some honest, non-dogmatic, unemotional discussion

> of the realities of this topic.

This reminds me of discussing nutrition with vegans! Thanks, and keep

the comments coming.

[Guest guest]

Hi Christie--

Listen, I never intended to create a huge controversy about

vaccinations on this list. My intention was to respond to a post

about whether or not to vaccinate, and I threw in my 2 cents. I do

not believe I am blindly tossing out anti-vax rhetoric. Your

experiences and your research have led you to believe one way about

this subject, and mine have led me to believe differently. I do not

think I have stuck my head in the sand at all. I think I've done more

research by far than the average person. But I am not willing to go

" the mat with anyone, anytime " so in that respect you " win. " There

are several parts of your post that I have always been in agreement

with, and other parts that I disagree with. I don't think either of

us is going to change the other's mind, and so we're going to have to

agree to disagree. I really enjoy this list and I do not care to make

enemies with anyone. With that said, I respectfully bow out of this

conversation.

Wishing you the best,

[Guest guest]

>> Your

experiences and your research have led you to believe one way about

this subject, and mine have led me to believe differently. <<

, a belief is: Vaccines can be harmful out of proportion to any

benefit they might offer.

A statement of fact is: Vaccines do not result in immunity.

The first statement is something any of us can have an opinion on, discuss,

disagree... people of good will and with good information can certainly have

different opinions on.

But the second statement is provably false. Belief doesn't come into it.

This isn't about opinions.

Christie

Caber Feidh ish Deerhounds

Holistically Raising Our Dogs Since 1986

http://www.caberfeidh.com

http://doggedblog.com

[Guest guest]

There are also a couple of things to consider. Although there are no

studies showing whether or not this is true as far as I know, I have heard

several doctors say that from their observation their unvaccinated patients

are overall much healthier than the vaccinated when measured by the number

of colds and flu and ear infections. But this is anecdotal.

Even more worrisome is that it has been suggested that getting childhood

diseases is important for proper development of the immune system so that

they are less likely to develop cancer and other serious diseases later on.

Of course in the absence of good studies it is hard to know.

Irene

At 09:12 AM 6/1/05, you wrote:

>I think Christie hit the nail on the head with some good back up. Vaccines

>can be effective, and,, as we know in humans, ,they can also be dangerous or

>deadly. I was recently the subject of a story on chicken pox vaccines that

>made it all the way to national NPR news (it was about moms who have chicken

>pox parties). I learned some things as a result of that experience that i

>didn't know. One, the rate of chicken pox has gone down considerably since

>the vaccine was introduced (or if children get it, it is much milder, same

>with measles, etc.). Two, children DO die from chicken pox. I know bc i was

>interviewed on a radio show by a talk host whose two year old died from

>chicken pox. She ended up with lesions on her heart. I still won't vax for

>chicken pox though.

>

>The whooping cough story posted here is not the first i have heard and it is

>one disease i am really scared of my kids getting. It is still going around.

>

>Sure, if you eat the perfect diet, etc. your chances of not getting sick or

>not getting that sick are much better. But you have to be honest with

>yourself -- how perfect is your kid's diet going to be? Will they not get

>cake and ice cream at the many bday parties they attend? Have you seen the

>kid at bday parties who doesn't get any? I have. It is pretty depressing.

>Will they not get a few Goldfish crackers that inevitably get passed around

>at play dates? Will you not put them in preschool bc the food will

>inevitably be sub par? Will you not let them play at friends' houses bc you

>can't control what they will eat there? Will you rush out in a panic bc the

>neighbor brought over a cold Hi-C juice box for them? Even Sally says it in

>NT: unless you raise them in a closet or in isolation from ordinary American

>life, you are going to have a hard time keeping them on a perfect diet if

>they have friends, play dates, school, etc. (we will homeschool but

>imperfect foods abound).

>

>Again, I don't vax, but i am frankly sick and tired of the knee-jerk

>anti-vax rhetoric. I want some honest, non-dogmatic, unemotional discussion

>of the realities of this topic. Not vaxing scares me bc my kids, esp. my

>extremely picky 5-year-old do not have a perfect diet. She is pretty healthy

>but i'm not sure how well she'd fare with a bad case of whooping cough and i

>don't even want to be in the hospital with her for that. My two-year-old is

>breastfed still and that gives her a fighting chance, but then she's so

>young.

>

>In fact, i am considering selective vaxing when they both hit six years old,

>which is when i've read their immune system is more developed. But the

>injury rates and deaths from vaxes (and i personally know people affected)

>scare me to death too. Tough business having children. We will do ANYTHING

>to protect them and with the vax issue i feel we are potentially damned

>either way.

>Elaine

>

>

>

>

>IMPORTANT ADDRESSES

> * < />NATIVE

> NUTRITION online

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>

[Guest guest]

Elaine, this post was very thoughtful and well put. It is so hard

being an nt mom in this society! I feel the pressure to conform

already, people offering my son cookies and candy and the like - and

he's only 14 months. All my local friends with kids feed soy milk and

low fat stuff. On the playground I worry kids are meaner because they

don't get enough butter. And how will that affect my son -- both my

perception and the reality of kiddie social life -- when I consider

most kids malnourished? Maybe we with young kids should all move to

one place. Daphne

> I think Christie hit the nail on the head with some good back up.

Vaccines

> can be effective, and,, as we know in humans, ,they can also be

dangerous or

> deadly. I was recently the subject of a story on chicken pox

vaccines that

> made it all the way to national NPR news (it was about moms who have

chicken

> pox parties). I learned some things as a result of that experience

that i

> didn't know. One, the rate of chicken pox has gone down considerably

since

> the vaccine was introduced (or if children get it, it is much

milder, same

> with measles, etc.). Two, children DO die from chicken pox. I know

bc i was

> interviewed on a radio show by a talk host whose two year old died from

> chicken pox. She ended up with lesions on her heart. I still won't

vax for

> chicken pox though.

>

> The whooping cough story posted here is not the first i have heard

and it is

> one disease i am really scared of my kids getting. It is still going

around.

>

> Sure, if you eat the perfect diet, etc. your chances of not getting

sick or

> not getting that sick are much better. But you have to be honest with

> yourself -- how perfect is your kid's diet going to be? Will they

not get

> cake and ice cream at the many bday parties they attend? Have you

seen the

> kid at bday parties who doesn't get any? I have. It is pretty

depressing.

> Will they not get a few Goldfish crackers that inevitably get passed

around

> at play dates? Will you not put them in preschool bc the food will

> inevitably be sub par? Will you not let them play at friends' houses

bc you

> can't control what they will eat there? Will you rush out in a panic

bc the

> neighbor brought over a cold Hi-C juice box for them? Even Sally

says it in

> NT: unless you raise them in a closet or in isolation from ordinary

American

> life, you are going to have a hard time keeping them on a perfect

diet if

> they have friends, play dates, school, etc. (we will homeschool but

> imperfect foods abound).

>

> Again, I don't vax, but i am frankly sick and tired of the knee-jerk

> anti-vax rhetoric. I want some honest, non-dogmatic, unemotional

discussion

> of the realities of this topic. Not vaxing scares me bc my kids, esp. my

> extremely picky 5-year-old do not have a perfect diet. She is pretty

healthy

> but i'm not sure how well she'd fare with a bad case of whooping

cough and i

> don't even want to be in the hospital with her for that. My

two-year-old is

> breastfed still and that gives her a fighting chance, but then she's so

> young.

>

> In fact, i am considering selective vaxing when they both hit six

years old,

> which is when i've read their immune system is more developed. But the

> injury rates and deaths from vaxes (and i personally know people

affected)

> scare me to death too. Tough business having children. We will do

ANYTHING

> to protect them and with the vax issue i feel we are potentially damned

> either way.

> Elaine

[Guest guest]

On Wed, 1 Jun 2005 08:38:30 -0700

" Christie " <christiekeith@...> wrote:

> Anyway, I could go on, but my point is simply this: If your objection to

> vaccination rests on the foundation that vaccines don't work, you are only

> able to base that on HUMAN studies, which are epidemiological. It's not that

> you can't learn a lot from such studies, you can. It's just that there are

> always a lot of confounding factors muddying the water, such as nutritional

> status and other lifestyle issues. Mass vaccination often accompanies other

> social changes, and those are often the real cause of the improved health

> status of a population, not the vaccination that takes the credit.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. The same diseases in humans <g> that

we were vaccinating for in America disappeared or declined at the same

time in Europe, without the accompanying mass vaccinations. I think with

some serious study it becomes fairly obvious that in HUMANS mass

vaccination is not only problematic but even dangerous.

" We are in the end talking about groups supporting

the only thing that the state does: namely roughing

people up through violence and threats of violence.

That's what every line of every regulation comes

down to. That's the meaning of every tax. That's

the whole upshot of every tariff, expenditure,

prohibition, and bomb. It all amounts to increased

use of violence in society. Strip away the banners,

songs, uniforms, and speeches: that's all that the

state really is. "

Lew Rockwell

[Guest guest]

--- In , Irene Musiol <Irene.M@a...>

wrote:

> There are also a couple of things to consider. Although there are

no

> studies showing whether or not this is true as far as I know, I

have heard

> several doctors say that from their observation their unvaccinated

patients

> are overall much healthier than the vaccinated when measured by the

number

> of colds and flu and ear infections. But this is anecdotal.

>

> Even more worrisome is that it has been suggested that getting

childhood

> diseases is important for proper development of the immune system

so that

> they are less likely to develop cancer and other serious diseases

later on.

> Of course in the absence of good studies it is hard to know.

>

> Irene

Hi Irene,

very interesting what you said; i've heard a physician (all natural

type) say that on the radio; that the immune system, like other

systems in the body, needs to be exercised or it doesn't work

properly. so if you're always giving it vaccinations and

antibiotics, your immune system won't learn to work properly on its

own.

very interesting.

laura

[Guest guest]

--- In , " daphneb10 " <biophile410@y...>

wrote:

> Elaine, this post was very thoughtful and well put. It is so hard

> being an nt mom in this society! I feel the pressure to conform

> already, people offering my son cookies and candy and the like - and

> he's only 14 months. All my local friends with kids feed soy milk and

> low fat stuff. On the playground I worry kids are meaner because they

> don't get enough butter. And how will that affect my son -- both my

> perception and the reality of kiddie social life -- when I consider

> most kids malnourished? Maybe we with young kids should all move to

> one place. Daphne

>

Daphne, we moved to a new neighborhood in our town last year. we are

invited to a neighborhood block party...and i was asked to bring soda

and dessert!!! LOLOLOL!!!! i called the woman in charge and asked if

i could bring a case of seltzer with lemon and lime wedges

instead....and if i could bring a whole watermelon cut up instead of

dessert. she said it's a very casual block party and that would be

great....

it's just very sad to me how entrenched these foods are, and that

people really have no idea what they're doing to themselves and their

families.

laura in nj