Re: OT: older animals - how much protein?

[Guest guest]

>> Hmmmm...my understanding is that they need *more* protein as they age.

Especially high quality, easily digestible protein. Perhaps Christie might

care to comment on this? <<

Suze is correct. There is no evidence supporting reducing the protein ration

as dogs age. This was a " theory " the pet food companies cooked up in order

to market " senior diets, " but they had no research supporting this concept,

and none has been forthcoming. Instead, even pet food company research has

established that senior dogs and cats require MORE protein (and I'd say, of

a high quality, not plant protein) than younger animals.

These are citations I got from Straus over on K9Nutrition:

http://pets./pets/dogs/hn/nutritional_needs_of_older_dogs

" A diet rich in protein is especially important for older dogs. Senior dogs

appear less efficient at metabolizing protein, so they require additional

protein in their diets to help compensate. In fact, research has shown that

healthy older dogs may need as much as 50 percent more protein than normal

young healthy adult dogs.

The additional protein is required to maintain a geriatric dog's protein

reserves and support protein turnover, which are important in helping the

dog's immune system function at full capacity, Laflamme says. 'Dogs that do

not receive adequate protein are more susceptible to stress,' she says. "

http://www.purina.com/dogs/magazine.asp?article=256

" Nutritional research has shown that healthy older dogs need more protein

than young adult dogs - as much as 50 percent more. The additional protein

is required to maintain a geriatric dog's protein reserves and support

protein turnover, which are important in helping the dog's immune system

function at its full capacity. Dogs that do not receive adequate protein are

more susceptible to stress, such as injury or infection. "

http://www.puppychow.com/Content/index.aspx?intCategoryID=17 & intContentID=20

" At the other age extreme, research has shown that geriatric dogs can

benefit from a protein level of 25 percent or more. "

http://www.speedyvet.com/speedyvet/library.asp?page=20

" On one hand, older dogs may have a higher protein requirement than younger

adult dogs. One study has shown that the optimal intake of dietary protein

was greater for 12-13 year-old Beagles than for 9-12 month old Beagles, with

repletion of tissue protein requiring 19% metabolisable energy from casein

in the older dogs compared with 13% in the younger dogs. "

http://web.archive.org/web/20011004133707/http://acmepet.petsmart.com/content/he\

alth/senior.html

" Because of certain biochemical requirements, the healthy geriatric dog

requires about 50 percent more protein than the young adult, and depending

on the quality of the protein, it should make up 20 percent to 30 percent of

the total calories ingested.

Until recently, protein restriction was recommended in an effort to protect

renal function. Limiting protein fails to prevent urinary filtration

problems associated with glomerular hyperfusion and hypertension in the

nephrons (where filtration occurs). Indeed, newer research shows dietary

protein is not detrimental to kidney function. On the contrary, protein

restriction can result in impaired wound healing, diminished immune function

and lowered enzyme activities and cellular turnover. "

http://www.cm-d.com/buckeye/tech_manual/8_28.html

" Reducing dietary protein in the older pet will not protect them from the

development of renal disease. In fact, reducing the protein in the older

dog's diet may have adverse effects. As pets age, their ability to utilize

nutrients decreases. The older pet actually requires a higher level of

protein to maintain its body stores of protein than does the younger adult

dog. "

Christie

Caber Feidh ish Deerhounds

Holistically Raising Our Dogs Since 1986

http://www.caberfeidh.com

http://doggedblog.com

[Guest guest]

Wow, this is really important. The " dogs with renal malfunction are not helped

by limiting their protein " info was really needed at this time.

Thanks much.

Nenah

Re: OT: older animals - how much protein?

>> Hmmmm...my understanding is that they need *more* protein as they age.

Especially high quality, easily digestible protein. Perhaps Christie might

care to comment on this? <<

Suze is correct. There is no evidence supporting reducing the protein ration

as dogs age. This was a " theory " the pet food companies cooked up in order

to market " senior diets, " but they had no research supporting this concept,

and none has been forthcoming. Instead, even pet food company research has

established that senior dogs and cats require MORE protein (and I'd say, of

a high quality, not plant protein) than younger animals.

These are citations I got from Straus over on K9Nutrition:

http://pets./pets/dogs/hn/nutritional_needs_of_older_dogs

" A diet rich in protein is especially important for older dogs. Senior dogs

appear less efficient at metabolizing protein, so they require additional

protein in their diets to help compensate. In fact, research has shown that

healthy older dogs may need as much as 50 percent more protein than normal

young healthy adult dogs.

The additional protein is required to maintain a geriatric dog's protein

reserves and support protein turnover, which are important in helping the

dog's immune system function at full capacity, Laflamme says. 'Dogs that do

not receive adequate protein are more susceptible to stress,' she says. "

http://www.purina.com/dogs/magazine.asp?article=256

" Nutritional research has shown that healthy older dogs need more protein

than young adult dogs - as much as 50 percent more. The additional protein

is required to maintain a geriatric dog's protein reserves and support

protein turnover, which are important in helping the dog's immune system

function at its full capacity. Dogs that do not receive adequate protein are

more susceptible to stress, such as injury or infection. "

http://www.puppychow.com/Content/index.aspx?intCategoryID=17 & intContentID=20

" At the other age extreme, research has shown that geriatric dogs can

benefit from a protein level of 25 percent or more. "

http://www.speedyvet.com/speedyvet/library.asp?page=20

" On one hand, older dogs may have a higher protein requirement than younger

adult dogs. One study has shown that the optimal intake of dietary protein

was greater for 12-13 year-old Beagles than for 9-12 month old Beagles, with

repletion of tissue protein requiring 19% metabolisable energy from casein

in the older dogs compared with 13% in the younger dogs. "

http://web.archive.org/web/20011004133707/http://acmepet.petsmart.com/content/he\

alth/senior.html

" Because of certain biochemical requirements, the healthy geriatric dog

requires about 50 percent more protein than the young adult, and depending

on the quality of the protein, it should make up 20 percent to 30 percent of

the total calories ingested.

Until recently, protein restriction was recommended in an effort to protect

renal function. Limiting protein fails to prevent urinary filtration

problems associated with glomerular hyperfusion and hypertension in the

nephrons (where filtration occurs). Indeed, newer research shows dietary

protein is not detrimental to kidney function. On the contrary, protein

restriction can result in impaired wound healing, diminished immune function

and lowered enzyme activities and cellular turnover. "

http://www.cm-d.com/buckeye/tech_manual/8_28.html

" Reducing dietary protein in the older pet will not protect them from the

development of renal disease. In fact, reducing the protein in the older

dog's diet may have adverse effects. As pets age, their ability to utilize

nutrients decreases. The older pet actually requires a higher level of

protein to maintain its body stores of protein than does the younger adult

dog. "

Christie

Caber Feidh ish Deerhounds

Holistically Raising Our Dogs Since 1986

http://www.caberfeidh.com

http://doggedblog.com

[Guest guest]

bull penis? wow!

Elaine

>

> One food that I've been feeding for years is mOrigins (I get just the

> meat/organ/bone - no added vits/minerals). And the protein content is 18%

> protein. However I also feed some of the bravo products, mostly quail, and

> they don't have macronutrient ratio breakdowns, so I don't know what the

> protein percent is. But it's the *whole* bird, so I think it works out. Both

> of my dogs also eat about a half of a beef stick per day (bull penis) which

> is almost all protein. Both dogs have good musculature and are doing rather

> well for their age. Well, my Chihuahua is actually remarkably youthful for

> his age, so their daily protein rations don't seem to be problematic. I

> haven't done a blood panel in a while, but I'd done them for years while

> they were on almost the same diet and their creatinine was always in normal

> range as well as their BUN, IIRC.

>

[Guest guest]

A dog with this disorder needs less fat and more Vitamin C.

Do you know what the cause of the malfunction is? Has the dog been getting

steroids for alleries?

K.C.

Re: OT: older animals - how much protein?

>> Hmmmm...my understanding is that they need *more* protein as they age.

Especially high quality, easily digestible protein. Perhaps Christie might

care to comment on this? <<

Suze is correct. There is no evidence supporting reducing the protein ration

as dogs age. This was a " theory " the pet food companies cooked up in order

to market " senior diets, " but they had no research supporting this concept,

and none has been forthcoming. Instead, even pet food company research has

established that senior dogs and cats require MORE protein (and I'd say, of

a high quality, not plant protein) than younger animals.

These are citations I got from Straus over on K9Nutrition:

http://pets./pets/dogs/hn/nutritional_needs_of_older_dogs

" A diet rich in protein is especially important for older dogs. Senior dogs

appear less efficient at metabolizing protein, so they require additional

protein in their diets to help compensate. In fact, research has shown that

healthy older dogs may need as much as 50 percent more protein than normal

young healthy adult dogs.

The additional protein is required to maintain a geriatric dog's protein

reserves and support protein turnover, which are important in helping the

dog's immune system function at full capacity, Laflamme says. 'Dogs that do

not receive adequate protein are more susceptible to stress,' she says. "

http://www.purina.com/dogs/magazine.asp?article=256

" Nutritional research has shown that healthy older dogs need more protein

than young adult dogs - as much as 50 percent more. The additional protein

is required to maintain a geriatric dog's protein reserves and support

protein turnover, which are important in helping the dog's immune system

function at its full capacity. Dogs that do not receive adequate protein are

more susceptible to stress, such as injury or infection. "

http://www.puppychow.com/Content/index.aspx?intCategoryID=17 & intContentID=20

" At the other age extreme, research has shown that geriatric dogs can

benefit from a protein level of 25 percent or more. "

http://www.speedyvet.com/speedyvet/library.asp?page=20

" On one hand, older dogs may have a higher protein requirement than younger

adult dogs. One study has shown that the optimal intake of dietary protein

was greater for 12-13 year-old Beagles than for 9-12 month old Beagles, with

repletion of tissue protein requiring 19% metabolisable energy from casein

in the older dogs compared with 13% in the younger dogs. "

http://web.archive.org/web/20011004133707/http://acmepet.petsmart.com/content/he\

alth/senior.html

" Because of certain biochemical requirements, the healthy geriatric dog

requires about 50 percent more protein than the young adult, and depending

on the quality of the protein, it should make up 20 percent to 30 percent of

the total calories ingested.

Until recently, protein restriction was recommended in an effort to protect

renal function. Limiting protein fails to prevent urinary filtration

problems associated with glomerular hyperfusion and hypertension in the

nephrons (where filtration occurs). Indeed, newer research shows dietary

protein is not detrimental to kidney function. On the contrary, protein

restriction can result in impaired wound healing, diminished immune function

and lowered enzyme activities and cellular turnover. "

http://www.cm-d.com/buckeye/tech_manual/8_28.html

" Reducing dietary protein in the older pet will not protect them from the

development of renal disease. In fact, reducing the protein in the older

dog's diet may have adverse effects. As pets age, their ability to utilize

nutrients decreases. The older pet actually requires a higher level of

protein to maintain its body stores of protein than does the younger adult

dog. "

Christie

Caber Feidh ish Deerhounds

Holistically Raising Our Dogs Since 1986

http://www.caberfeidh.com

http://doggedblog.com

[Guest guest]

>> A dog with this disorder needs less fat and more Vitamin C. <<

Why would a dog with kidney malfunction need less fat?

Christie

Caber Feidh ish Deerhounds

Holistically Raising Our Dogs Since 1986

http://www.caberfeidh.com

http://doggedblog.com

[Guest guest]

Because the fat will clog the kidneys and/or surround them, thus preventing

proper drainage. It impeads the use of the kidneys. Also, if there's too much

fat, the liver can't metabolize proteins and other nutrients into the system

needed to help the entire body to function properly, as it will be too busy

trying to metabolize the extra fat.

K.C.

Re: OT: older animals - how much protein?

>> A dog with this disorder needs less fat and more Vitamin C. <<

Why would a dog with kidney malfunction need less fat?

Christie

Caber Feidh ish Deerhounds

Holistically Raising Our Dogs Since 1986

http://www.caberfeidh.com

http://doggedblog.com

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[Guest guest]

>> Because the fat will clog the kidneys and/or surround them, thus

preventing proper drainage. It impeads the use of the kidneys. <<

Could you provide some sort of documentation for this? I've worked as a

medical journalist, including for the Veterinary Information Network for

seven years, and never in my entire life have I heard this. By

" documenation " I don't mean further explanation, I mean a citation to some

study, research, or report in the professional or even the popular

literature. In other words, where are you getting this?

>> Also, if there's too much fat, the liver can't metabolize proteins and

other nutrients into the system needed to help the entire body to function

properly, as it will be too busy trying to metabolize the extra fat. <<

Define " too much " fat for a cat. Do you realize how high the natural diet of

the cat is in fat? It's in the 30 percent range and up. Cats evolved eating,

and do best on, an extremely high fat diet.

If there is liver or pancreatic disease, then yes, you will want to look at

fat and protein restriction. I know of no research anywhere that suggests

restricting dietary fat for renal disease in cats, and I think you are

letting a completely unfounded bias against dietary fat prejudice your

reasoning here.

I am assuming this bias because in a subsequent post to this list you said,

" All animals, including humans need some fat in their diet. But, an over

abundance can be detrimental if not balanced with other foods that break

down the fats. "

Cats don't need " some " begrudgingly included fat in their diets, they need a

LOT of fat in their diets.

Christie

Caber Feidh ish Deerhounds

Holistically Raising Our Dogs Since 1986

http://www.caberfeidh.com

http://doggedblog.com

[Guest guest]

I don't have written proof, but I was an Animal Health Tech and Veterinary

surgical assistant and I've seen with my own eyes what too much fat does to the

liver and kidneys in both dogs and cats. It virtually strangles the kidneys and

if the liver is too fatty, it will prevent proper metabolizing the animals food,

thus preventing proper nutrition getting to the animal.

Wild cats and dogs (lions and smaller types and wolves and coyotes) do not get

very much fat in the animals they catch and eat. Wild animals are almost fat

free. We know this because when people hunt and get wild game, there is

practically no fat at all on the animal. Even ferral cats that eat mice and

other small roadents have no fat to speak of on them.

I know you all think fat is good, and maybe for people it's not such a bad

thing, but for dogs and cats, it's deadly. I've seen it with my own eyes. You

can't equate what you eat with what you feed your animals. They do not process

the fats the same way we do. They don't have the same type of stomach acid we

do or enzymes to break down certain fats like we have. Yes, the enzymes my be

the same, but they do not work in the same manner as human beings.

I'm sure you all think I'm nuts, but I can tell you if you feed your animals too

much fat, you will be doing them great harm.

With that, I'm sure you all have totally different ideas then I do, so I will no

longer bother you with my thoughts.

K.C.

Re: OT: older animals - how much protein?

>> Because the fat will clog the kidneys and/or surround them, thus

preventing proper drainage. It impeads the use of the kidneys. <<

Could you provide some sort of documentation for this? I've worked as a

medical journalist, including for the Veterinary Information Network for

seven years, and never in my entire life have I heard this. By

" documenation " I don't mean further explanation, I mean a citation to some

study, research, or report in the professional or even the popular

literature. In other words, where are you getting this?

>> Also, if there's too much fat, the liver can't metabolize proteins and

other nutrients into the system needed to help the entire body to function

properly, as it will be too busy trying to metabolize the extra fat. <<

Define " too much " fat for a cat. Do you realize how high the natural diet of

the cat is in fat? It's in the 30 percent range and up. Cats evolved eating,

and do best on, an extremely high fat diet.

If there is liver or pancreatic disease, then yes, you will want to look at

fat and protein restriction. I know of no research anywhere that suggests

restricting dietary fat for renal disease in cats, and I think you are

letting a completely unfounded bias against dietary fat prejudice your

reasoning here.

I am assuming this bias because in a subsequent post to this list you said,

" All animals, including humans need some fat in their diet. But, an over

abundance can be detrimental if not balanced with other foods that break

down the fats. "

Cats don't need " some " begrudgingly included fat in their diets, they need a

LOT of fat in their diets.

Christie

Caber Feidh ish Deerhounds

Holistically Raising Our Dogs Since 1986

http://www.caberfeidh.com

http://doggedblog.com

<HTML><!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC " -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN "

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<LI><B><A

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Wanita Sears

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[Guest guest]

> With that, I'm sure you all have totally different ideas then I do, so I

will no longer bother you with my thoughts.

To quote Moynihan, " Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but

not their own facts. " You were not sharing your thoughts, you were

presenting statements of fact that you can't support, and that are in fact

not supported by the available evidence.

> I don't have written proof, but I was an Animal Health Tech and Veterinary

surgical assistant and I've seen with my own eyes what too much fat does to

the liver and kidneys in both dogs and cats. It virtually strangles the

kidneys and if the liver is too fatty, it will prevent proper metabolizing

the animals food, thus preventing proper nutrition getting to the animal. <

It's certainly true that fatty deposits on the organs are harmful, but you

have no reason to believe this is caused by dietary fat. It's usually caused

by OBESITY. You are confusing the effect with the cause, and that's bad

science.

> Wild cats and dogs (lions and smaller types and wolves and coyotes) do not

get very much fat in the animals they catch and eat. Wild animals are

almost fat free. <

This is demonstrably incorrect. Many prey animals are quite high in fat.

Rats, one of the species that are the natural prey of the cat, are in the

range of 35-40 percent fat. White tailed deer, 41 percent fat. Mouse, 23

percent. (From " NUTRIENT COMPOSITION OF WHOLE VERTEBRATE PREY; " Ellen S.

Dierenfeld, PhD, L. Alcorn, BS, Krista L. sen, MS; Cornell

University Wildlife Conservation Society.)

> I know you all think fat is good, and maybe for people it's not such a bad

thing, but for dogs and cats, it's deadly. I've seen it with my own eyes. <

No, you haven't. You have seen visceral fat and assumed it was caused by

dietary fat, and by your own admission you have no evidence at all of this.

> I'm sure you all think I'm nuts, but I can tell you if you feed your

animals too much fat, you will be doing them great harm.<

That's certainly true, it's just that you have no idea what " too much fat "

is for those species.

> You can't equate what you eat with what you feed your animals. They do

not process the fats the same way we do. They don't have the same type of

stomach acid we do or enzymes to break down certain fats like we have. Yes,

the enzymes my be the same, but they do not work in the same manner as human

beings. <

What they either lack (cats) or have smaller amounts of than we do (dogs)

are enzymes to digest STARCHES. Dogs and cats evolved eating a very high fat

diet and are ideally suited to such a diet from the tips of their noses to

the ends of their wagging tails.

Deprive them of the fats they need, feed them the " amost zero " levels you

recommend, and I do promise you'll have sickly, immune-compromised,

deficient, unhealthy dogs and cats. I absolutely guarantee it.

I suggest you read the article " The Carnivore Connection to Nutrition in

Cats " by Debra L. Zoran DVM, ACVIM in the Journal of the American Veterinary

Medical Association (December 1, 2002 issue) to understand that it is

dietary CARBOHYDRATE that leads to excess body fat in cats, not dietary fat.

You can find the article online here:

http://www.catinfo.org/zorans_article.pdf

As to saying that tigers, lions, and other wild cats eat diets with almost

no fat, you are again way off base. The big cats eat diets VERY high in fat

.... " The great cats are unique in their nutritional requirements. They

require a diet very high in protein and fat - considerably higher than other

large carnivores. " ( " Diet, Feeding, And Nutritional Care of Tigers, Lions,

And Leopards, " Ron Hines DVM); " " Unique nutritional requirements of felids

must be recognized in feeding captive tigers, including the need for high

protein and fat diets... " ( " Management and Conservation of Captive Tigers,

Nutrition, Food Preparation, and Feeding, " E. Dierenfield, M. Bush, L.

, R. Montali.)

Christie

Caber Feidh ish Deerhounds

Holistically Raising Our Dogs Since 1986

http://www.caberfeidh.com

http://doggedblog.com

[Guest guest]

,

I enjoyed this message. I've been skipping over this thread but somehow managed

to read yours. I am sick to death of hearing people say that dietary fat is the

cause of obesity. I just don't get how the fat can enter the stomach and go

straight to the thighs (or where-ever) as fat. I've given up arguing that it's

the type of fat that counts and some fats are good.

There's one commercial on the TV at the moment that says that one margarine is

healthier than all others because it is the lowest in fat. That turns my

stomach just thinking about it.

Well done

Re: OT: older animals - how much protein?

> With that, I'm sure you all have totally different ideas then I do, so I

will no longer bother you with my thoughts.

To quote Moynihan, " Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but

not their own facts. " You were not sharing your thoughts, you were

presenting statements of fact that you can't support, and that are in fact

not supported by the available evidence.

> I don't have written proof, but I was an Animal Health Tech and Veterinary

surgical assistant and I've seen with my own eyes what too much fat does to

the liver and kidneys in both dogs and cats. It virtually strangles the

kidneys and if the liver is too fatty, it will prevent proper metabolizing

the animals food, thus preventing proper nutrition getting to the animal. <

It's certainly true that fatty deposits on the organs are harmful, but you

have no reason to believe this is caused by dietary fat. It's usually caused

by OBESITY. You are confusing the effect with the cause, and that's bad

science.

> Wild cats and dogs (lions and smaller types and wolves and coyotes) do not

get very much fat in the animals they catch and eat. Wild animals are

almost fat free. <

This is demonstrably incorrect. Many prey animals are quite high in fat.

Rats, one of the species that are the natural prey of the cat, are in the

range of 35-40 percent fat. White tailed deer, 41 percent fat. Mouse, 23

percent. (From " NUTRIENT COMPOSITION OF WHOLE VERTEBRATE PREY; " Ellen S.

Dierenfeld, PhD, L. Alcorn, BS, Krista L. sen, MS; Cornell

University Wildlife Conservation Society.)

> I know you all think fat is good, and maybe for people it's not such a bad

thing, but for dogs and cats, it's deadly. I've seen it with my own eyes. <

No, you haven't. You have seen visceral fat and assumed it was caused by

dietary fat, and by your own admission you have no evidence at all of this.

> I'm sure you all think I'm nuts, but I can tell you if you feed your

animals too much fat, you will be doing them great harm.<

That's certainly true, it's just that you have no idea what " too much fat "

is for those species.

> You can't equate what you eat with what you feed your animals. They do

not process the fats the same way we do. They don't have the same type of

stomach acid we do or enzymes to break down certain fats like we have. Yes,

the enzymes my be the same, but they do not work in the same manner as human

beings. <

What they either lack (cats) or have smaller amounts of than we do (dogs)

are enzymes to digest STARCHES. Dogs and cats evolved eating a very high fat

diet and are ideally suited to such a diet from the tips of their noses to

the ends of their wagging tails.

Deprive them of the fats they need, feed them the " amost zero " levels you

recommend, and I do promise you'll have sickly, immune-compromised,

deficient, unhealthy dogs and cats. I absolutely guarantee it.

I suggest you read the article " The Carnivore Connection to Nutrition in

Cats " by Debra L. Zoran DVM, ACVIM in the Journal of the American Veterinary

Medical Association (December 1, 2002 issue) to understand that it is

dietary CARBOHYDRATE that leads to excess body fat in cats, not dietary fat.

You can find the article online here:

http://www.catinfo.org/zorans_article.pdf

As to saying that tigers, lions, and other wild cats eat diets with almost

no fat, you are again way off base. The big cats eat diets VERY high in fat

... " The great cats are unique in their nutritional requirements. They

require a diet very high in protein and fat - considerably higher than other

large carnivores. " ( " Diet, Feeding, And Nutritional Care of Tigers, Lions,

And Leopards, " Ron Hines DVM); " " Unique nutritional requirements of felids

must be recognized in feeding captive tigers, including the need for high

protein and fat diets... " ( " Management and Conservation of Captive Tigers,

Nutrition, Food Preparation, and Feeding, " E. Dierenfield, M. Bush, L.

, R. Montali.)

Christie

Caber Feidh ish Deerhounds

Holistically Raising Our Dogs Since 1986

http://www.caberfeidh.com

http://doggedblog.com

<HTML><!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC " -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN "

" http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd " ><BODY><FONT

FACE= " monospace " SIZE= " 3 " >

<B>IMPORTANT ADDRESSES</B>

<UL>

<LI><B><A

HREF= " / " >NATIVE

NUTRITION</A></B> online</LI>

<LI><B><A HREF= " http://onibasu.com/ " >SEARCH</A></B> the entire message

archive with Onibasu</LI>

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<B>MODERATORS:</B> Heidi Schuppenhauer

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