Re: Gluten Intolerance, continued

[Guest guest]

--- In , " Nenah Sylver " <nenah@b...>

wrote:

> There's a wonderful book called Dangerous Grains, written by a

doctor and

> one of his colleagues, which discusses celiac disease and other

maladies

> that are not specifically celiac, but which are all the result of

gluten

> intolerance.

>

>

> The one thing the authors do NOT discuss is the distinction

between natural

> and adulterated foods: pasteurized and homogenized dairy versus

raw and/or

> raw fermented dairy, and conventionally prepared grains versus

soaked or

> sprouted grains. I doubt that the same high illness statistics

would show up

> if the grain and dairy were properly prepared.

> Nevertheless, I think that there are some people who simply don't

do well on

> grains and/or dairy, no matter how they are prepared. Each one of

us is so

> individual.

>

> Best,

> Nenah

>

Nenah,

The gluten intolerant are intolerant of the main proteins in gluten

grains. No amount of preparation with natural products will change

the gluten to it's component amino acids. Stanford scientists are

working on a recombinant peptide that will break the bonds of the

amino acids in the 33 amino acid chain in gluten that is the

problem, but they are at least 15 years from market.

No humans actually can break down gluten to amino acids in the

digestive system. This means that the gluten, which sticks to the

villi on the lining of the gut by its own nature, is affecting

everyone who eats it. It just doesn't cause the antibodies,

immunoglobulins and T cells of some people (60%) to also destroy

those villi.

I sure would love it if I could look forward to eating bread again,

but the bottom line is that even when the Stanford product is ready,

it will probably be most useful for eating out and cross

contamination/accidental ingestion of gluten.

Gluten breaks down to an opiod - having a " drug-like " effect and

making it very very difficult to even think that bread/flour/wheat

is just rat poison.

Connie

[Guest guest]

connie,

i'm really wondering about something.

what you said, you are implying then that gluten is not a food per se

as we can't digest it, that no one can digest it.

and yet gluten is in so many foods...taking away grains containing

gluten from the human race would take away a LOT of food.

there is something i really want to know and i will probably be

jumped on here.

SOMETHING is missing here. gluten is in a lot of worldwide

foods...yet we can't digest it.

first of all, is this REALLY true? either it is or it isn't.

IS IT POSSIBLE THAT THE MISSING LINK HERE IS DIGESTIVE HEALTH AND

SOIL ORGANISMS???

did any of you read that long article i posted the links of, that

someone originally posted over on rawdairy?

as you all probably know anyhow, the current state of digestive flora

is ABYSSMAL.

taking soil organisms is supposed to RESTORE the flora we no longer

have because of antibiotics, dead soil, chlorinated water, etc.

i started taking them a few months ago. before that, milk would give

me gas and diarrhea. now i can drink lots of milk. and i do!! in

my most hurried and busy days i live on raw milk and cream. and i

love it!!! and i don't think that is a coincidence!!!! i'm telling

you, more than one glass of milk would give me horrible gas and

diarrhea. now i can drink a quart of milk or more per day. and i

do! before i could only tolerate kefir in larger quantities and even

then i had to watch it...

the article said these organisms digest things for us!! that they

SHOULD be living in us to help us digest, among other things!!

but what about gluten? do these bacteria digest gluten for us in

our gut? what if they do? maybe gluten intolerance is a combination

of lack of these bacteria that are SUPPOSED to be living in us anyway

to do this for us!! that and the damage that is done to the gut

lining when we DON'T have these bacteria to digest for us and heal

us...yes, when you start taking them they HEAL you as well.

i'm not giving up on this idea.

i just don't buy the fact that wapf says raw milk and soaked,

sprouted, fermented grains are good for you, and that so many of us

can't tolerate them. WHY??????

i'm not letting go of this possible solution until i find out the

truth!!

laura in nj

p.s. i'll repost the link if you want. i just ordered a bottle of

them. currently i take Garden of Life Primal Defense HSO's

(homeostatic soil organisms.) you have to go easy. my gut was in

such bad shape the first pill gave me diarrhea. now i can take the

recommended 3 pills per day with no problem at all. but if i skip a

few days...and take a pill...i'm loose again if you get my drift. so

i'm starting to lose those bacteria in only a few days and have to

keep taking them daily. but i have so much more energy...i had

border line chronic fatigue. the hso's are supposed to help chronic

fatigue. i'm telling you, there is something to this! maybe these

are the solution i've been looking for for the past 30 years?? maybe

it's too soon to tell.

> The gluten intolerant are intolerant of the main proteins in gluten

> grains. No amount of preparation with natural products will change

> the gluten to it's component amino acids. Stanford scientists are

> working on a recombinant peptide that will break the bonds of the

> amino acids in the 33 amino acid chain in gluten that is the

> problem, but they are at least 15 years from market.

>

> No humans actually can break down gluten to amino acids in the

> digestive system. This means that the gluten, which sticks to the

> villi on the lining of the gut by its own nature, is affecting

> everyone who eats it. It just doesn't cause the antibodies,

> immunoglobulins and T cells of some people (60%) to also destroy

> those villi.

>

> I sure would love it if I could look forward to eating bread again,

> but the bottom line is that even when the Stanford product is

ready,

> it will probably be most useful for eating out and cross

> contamination/accidental ingestion of gluten.

>

> Gluten breaks down to an opiod - having a " drug-like " effect and

> making it very very difficult to even think that bread/flour/wheat

> is just rat poison.

>

> Connie

[Guest guest]

> Gluten Intolerance, continued

>

>

>There's a wonderful book called Dangerous Grains, written by a doctor and

>one of his colleagues, which discusses celiac disease and other maladies

>that are not specifically celiac, but which are all the result of gluten

>intolerance.

>

>The book is quite comprehensive, loaded with studies (I thought of

>you, Suze

>;-) but written in a kind of " popular " style that's quite accessible.

Good bet, I bought that book a few years ago! :-)

>

>The one thing the authors do NOT discuss is the distinction

>between natural

>and adulterated foods: pasteurized and homogenized dairy versus raw and/or

>raw fermented dairy, and conventionally prepared grains versus soaked or

>sprouted grains. I doubt that the same high illness statistics

>would show up

>if the grain and dairy were properly prepared.

I don't know about dairy, as I think there's far less info available re

dairy tolerance. But if one has the gluten intolerant genes, there's not

much that can be done to the gluten grains to make them tolerable, UNLESS

the gliadin fraction (the most problematic gluten protein), which is

something like a 33 amino acid sequence, is broken down into single amino

acids or MUCH shorter peptide chains so that it's no longer recognizable as

gliadin.

There is only one study I know of in which the researchers were able to rid

the sourdough bread of gluten via fermentation. However, there is no such

product on the market yet, and no one knows if their home fermented gluten

grains are appropriately broken down unless they repeatedly test them, so

it's generally not a good idea to experiment, especially since the damage is

so often silent and thus one cannot go by symptomology alone.

That doesn't mean it's not possible to rid gluten grain products of gluten,

only that no one knows excactly what it takes to do so on a regular basis.

>It's also true that once the leaky gut is repaired, the intestinal flora

>re-balanced, and all the glands and organs functioning correctly, the

>ability to tolerate foods increases.

This is true, but I believe the IgA reaction to gluten actually takes place

in the gut, or I think that's the primary location of reaction. The

Glutenator can correct me if I'm wrong.

>

>Nevertheless, I think that there are some people who simply don't

>do well on

>grains and/or dairy, no matter how they are prepared. Each one of us is so

>individual.

So true. I think this is really what it comes down to.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

> There is only one study I know of in which the researchers were able

to rid

> the sourdough bread of gluten via fermentation.

is it POSSIBLE that this could happen in the gut...if you had the right

bacterial flora? fermentation happens because of BACTERIA (and yeast).

don't you think all these wapf healthy people who consumed gluten

(wheat, rice, rye, corn, etc.) might have had the right bact. flora in

their gut to do this? and that's why there's so many gluten intolerant

people? because we have lost the right flora in our gut?

i think i might be onto something. or i could be way off.

laura in nj

[Guest guest]

VERY interesting discussion. I have Crohn's disease, (in a way more

serious than celiac, since celiacers can simply avoid gluten (I know

it's not that simple!) while carbless diet does not necessarily lead

to Crohn's remission), and so I've thought about leaky gut and

probiotics, and inflammatory mediators etc (though believe me I'm no

expert)..

The SCD diet, which is a version of a no-grain diet, helped me for a

week or so, but then my flare got worse. Those were my pre-wapf days,

these days if I got a flare I'd probably modify that diet a la wapf,

but I think I would stay no-grain, especially wheat (rice I guess is

OK for many celiacs BTW, a couple of other grains as well I think).

I'm on the fence about the homeostatic soil organisms. From what I've

read on this list they're basically the usual probiotics. If I

remember Rubin's book he doesn't go into detail about their

composition or how he makes them, but I could be remembering wrong,

wouldn't be the first time. I don't know which ones were where

during whichever period and place that people age fermented grains a

lot (did they ever really eat a lOT?). Also, if we can keep chickens

in the city, why can't we just put those organisms back in our

backyard gardens instead of buying capsules from Garden of Life.

I'm sure we have loads of digestive difficulties due to probiotic

imbalances (among others), but I have my doubts it's as simple as if

we only had the right probiotics we wouldn't have gluten intolerances.

But, as you say, I may be way off.

Blank

On 5/27/05, laurainnewjersey <laurabusse@...> wrote:

> > There is only one study I know of in which the researchers were able

> to rid

> > the sourdough bread of gluten via fermentation.

>

>

> is it POSSIBLE that this could happen in the gut...if you had the right

> bacterial flora? fermentation happens because of BACTERIA (and yeast).

>

> don't you think all these wapf healthy people who consumed gluten

> (wheat, rice, rye, corn, etc.) might have had the right bact. flora in

> their gut to do this? and that's why there's so many gluten intolerant

> people? because we have lost the right flora in our gut?

>

> i think i might be onto something. or i could be way off.

>

> laura in nj

>

>

>

>

>

>

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[Guest guest]

--- In , Blank <john.blank@g...>

wrote:

>

> I'm on the fence about the homeostatic soil organisms. From what

I've

> read on this list they're basically the usual probiotics. If I

> remember Rubin's book he doesn't go into detail about their

> composition or how he makes them, but I could be remembering wrong,

> wouldn't be the first time. I don't know which ones were where

> during whichever period and place that people age fermented grains a

> lot (did they ever really eat a lOT?). Also, if we can keep

chickens

> in the city, why can't we just put those organisms back in our

> backyard gardens instead of buying capsules from Garden of Life.

>

> I'm sure we have loads of digestive difficulties due to probiotic

> imbalances (among others), but I have my doubts it's as simple as if

> we only had the right probiotics we wouldn't have gluten

intolerances.

> But, as you say, I may be way off.

>

> Blank

Hi john,

you're right, rubin doesn't go into much detail about hso's. but he

DOES say that all hso's are not equal. the ones that saved his life,

and i presume the ones he put in his Primal Defense formula,

are 'special' hso's from somewhere in the world, better than the

garden variety ones. i know to skeptics this might sound like he's

just trying to sell something. but they DID save his life...

it would be nice if we could just build them up in our soil, like in

our backyard, once more. but that doesn't take into consideration

all the factors around us that are destroying them to begin with, eg

clorinated water, the things in food that kill them, and i think

maybe alchohol and caffeine but i'm not sure.

, did you read the article i posted here a few days ago? the

same article that someone was kind enough to post on rawdairy a

couple weeks ago.

yes, that long article was a very long ad to sell the hso's (tho they

called them something else), i'll admit. but it was a very long

article with LOTS of info and well worth reading.

there are animals that have certain 'bugs' or 'parasites' or whatever

in their gut that they absolutely need to digest and function and

survive...

what if the way the Creator designed things was for us to have these

hso's in our gut in order to help us digest and to heal us, and if we

don't have them, or the right ones, or enough of them, we can't

digest properly, we have food sensitivities, and all manner of

disease?? like this article implies or comes right out and says?

before modern technology, the way people lived, hso's would have

thrived. before modern agriculture which deadens the soil, before

chlorinated water and toothpaste and mouthwash, before pasteurized

foods and beverages, before irradiation, etc. etc.

i'm just saying...if you read that article (and i'll repost it if

anyone wants) it makes a VERY LONG LIST of the benefits of these soil

organisms. they help us digest proteins, fats and carbs (CARBS!!

gluten?), they make antibodies to keep us well, they heal us from

diseases, they help heal allergies and food sensitivities (FOOD

SENSITIVITIES!!! casein? gluten? i'm living proof...i can drink

all the milk i want now pretty much)

anyway, at the risk of misquoting...read the article!!!

laura in nj

[Guest guest]

> Re: Gluten Intolerance, continued

>

>

>> There is only one study I know of in which the researchers were able

>to rid

>> the sourdough bread of gluten via fermentation.

>

>

>is it POSSIBLE that this could happen in the gut...if you had the right

>bacterial flora? fermentation happens because of BACTERIA (and yeast).

When you ferment in the gut, you get gas :-)

>

>don't you think all these wapf healthy people who consumed gluten

>(wheat, rice, rye, corn, etc.) might have had the right bact.

First, rice and corn do not contain gluten - not the gluten that is

problematic for so many people. It's found rather in wheat, rye, barley,

kamut, spelt and triticale. The only group of WAPF's that consumed a gluten

grain was the Swiss. Either they fermented the rye long enough to break down

the problematic proteins (they fermented their bread for 2 weeks! after all)

OR they didn't have the gluten-intolerant genes. Which you'd expect to be

quickly eliminated from an isolated population anyway.

flora in

>their gut to do this? and that's why there's so many gluten intolerant

>people? because we have lost the right flora in our gut?

If you're really interested in this subject, you might want to hop over to

the GFCFNN list and read the archives as all this and more has been

discussed at_length over there.

>

>i think i might be onto something. or i could be way off.

I think there's definiitely an issue with dysbiosis and food intolerances,

or perhaps dysbiosis causing the gluten intolerant genes to *express*, but

it's not exactly a new hypothesis. I think we discussed this issue on this

list as well as the other one not very long ago. I don't feel like rehashing

it here myself, but if someone else wants to, maybe you can get this line of

discussion going again.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

Re: Gluten Intolerance, continued

i'm really wondering about something....you are implying then that gluten is not

a food per se as we can't digest it, that no one can digest it.

and yet gluten is in so many foods...taking away grains containing

gluten from the human race would take away a LOT of food....

SOMETHING is missing here. gluten is in a lot of worldwide

foods...yet we can't digest it....

i just don't buy the fact that wapf says raw milk and soaked,

sprouted, fermented grains are good for you, and that so many of us

can't tolerate them. WHY??????

i'm not letting go of this possible solution until i find out the

truth!!

laura in nj

---------------------------------

in NJ,

Relevant to the above, a couple of years ago a very provacative 2-part article

by Lloyd Pye appeared in Nexus magazine, called DARWINISM: A CRUMBLING THEORY.

It can be found on the internet at

http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles.html

Look down the page on the right hand side.

Best,

Nenah

[Guest guest]

[] i started taking them a few months ago. before that, milk would give

me gas and diarrhea. now i can drink lots of milk. and i do!! in

my most hurried and busy days i live on raw milk and cream. and i

love it!!! and i don't think that is a coincidence!!!! i'm telling

you, more than one glass of milk would give me horrible gas and

diarrhea. now i can drink a quart of milk or more per day. and i

do! before i could only tolerate kefir in larger quantities and even

then i had to watch it...

[MikeP] Well, it sounds like you've got a classic case of

lactose-intolerance, which is quantity-dependent and pretty much a gut

flora issue at the level of symptoms as I understand it, but digesting

lactose (a sugar) is quite different than digesting wheat-gluten (a

protein), and I don't think there's much of a parallel there, because

symptomatically the problems with wheat-gluten involve the

bloodstream, not the gut. Nevertheless, I think it's a wonderful and

stimulating line of thinking you're pursuing here, and I get the

impression that the processing of wheat-gluten in the human gut is not

well-understood yet, so we should be asking these sorts of questions.

I tend to subscribe to the line of reasoning that wheat-gluten was

simply not a significant component of human diets until quite

recently, for some combination of the following reasons, all probably

mentioned at some point or another in these threads (which I haven't

followed too well):

1. grains period are a new food for humans

2. of the staple grains in some cultures since the agricultural era

began, most of them do not contain wheat-gluten (Suze makes this point

quite wonderfully above in the thread and connects it to the critical

point about gene pools in traditional isolated societies)

3. in the cases where wheat-gluten grains were consumed, the breeds

were different than the modern wheat-gluten grains that have been bred

to have drastically higher levels of gluten

4. in the cases where where wheat-gluten grains were consumed, they

were fermented (e.g. sourdough), reducing, though probably not

eliminating, the amount of gluten

While Suze did point out that fermentation *in the gut* (as opposed to

outside the body in a jar or something) is definitely not desirable by

standard reasoning, I suppose the matter is possibly more complex and

perhaps there are non-gas-producing types of fermentations that act on

protein and so on. I have no knowledge that would allow me to make a

confident conclusion one way or another.

I just remembered a conversation I had last night that fits right in

this thread. I have a friend who seems to be an absolutely classic

case of gluten-intolerance from what he's told me about his

experiences and the fact that his grandmother had major problems with

wheat! It seems exceptionally obvious to me and I've given him

extremely blunt advice to drop wheat-gluten for good, emphasizing the

gravity of the matter for his future health. However, like me, he's a

carefree twenty-something person quite capable of deluding himself

about health realities until they really catch up with him, and even

though he's been aware of the existence of the gluten issue for many

years, he says he's had negative tests (he couldn't recall what kind

of tests they were, surely the crappy ones) and doesn't feel he has

evidence to support a gluten-free lifestyle. I often see him eating

gluten-containing foods. To make matters a thousand times more bleak

and difficult, he's a vegan! However, given some health concerns,

he's currently open to adding eggs and/or fish to his diet, though he

hasn't actually done so yet and lives in a household with 2 other

vegans so he's worried about offending them by preparing fish and so

on. He doesn't know much of anything about nutrition, but eats a

half-decent diet with a fair amount of veggies and not a typical

degenerate " bagel vegan " diet. I'm trying to get him to adopt a

coconut/fish/veggie gluten-free diet, but he's not really convinced of

the need to go gf. (By the way, thinking about a case like this

really makes me see the tremendous positive value in Sally's recent

coconut-diet campaign and I'm starting to work on developing recipes

for a coconut-based diet that will be practical for friends whose

diets are train-wrecks waiting to happen but who have no inclination

to put much effort into their food lifestyle and certainly would never

adopt my own extremely elaborate food lifestyle. Super-easy coconut

soups and that sort of thing.)

So that's the context for this conversation last night. I saw him

eating a sandwich and I was like " hey man, you're eating wheat! are

you crazy? " . But he said it was Ezekial bread (you know the stuff

that's commonly sold in health food stores) so it was okay. I told

him sprouting helps but it doesn't totally eliminate the gluten and so

it's still off limits. He was convinced it was okay though and

strongly defended himself; he told me that the father of a housemate

has severe reactions to wheat, but can eat a half a loaf of that

commercial Ezekial wheat bread with no problems. That is a pretty

compelling anecdote, and the information was from a first-hand source,

although I would like to verify the details of exactly what kind of

Ezekial bread is being referred to.

Mike

SE Pennsylvania

The best way to predict the future is to invent it. --Alan Kay

[Guest guest]

he told me that the father of a housemate

> has severe reactions to wheat, but can eat a half a loaf of that

> commercial Ezekial wheat bread with no problems. That is a pretty

> compelling anecdote, and the information was from a first-hand source,

> although I would like to verify the details of exactly what kind of

> Ezekial bread is being referred to.

>

> Mike,

Just because the father can eat half a loaf without noticing a

reaction, doesn't mean his villi aren't being damaged. He can't be

certain without being 'scoped.

B.

[Guest guest]

>> Relevant to the above, a couple of years ago a very provacative 2-part

article by Lloyd Pye appeared in Nexus magazine, called DARWINISM: A

CRUMBLING THEORY.

<<

I think Suze's explantion that only one of the groups that Weston Price

looked at ate a gluten grain, and that one was fermented for two weeks,

answered the question without bringing space aliens into the equation! Ever

heard of Occam's Razor?

Christie

Caber Feidh ish Deerhounds

Holistically Raising Our Dogs Since 1986

http://www.caberfeidh.com

http://doggedblog.com

[Guest guest]

My point is, this guy's data that tiny little grains logically could not have

naturally evolved given the circumstances, suggest that perhaps humans were

never intended to eat grains, no matter where grains come from.

I am unfamiliar with Occam's Razor.

Nenah

Re: Re: Gluten Intolerance, continued

>> Relevant to the above, a couple of years ago a very provacative 2-part

article by Lloyd Pye appeared in Nexus magazine, called DARWINISM: A

CRUMBLING THEORY.

<<

I think Suze's explantion that only one of the groups that Weston Price

looked at ate a gluten grain, and that one was fermented for two weeks,

answered the question without bringing space aliens into the equation! Ever

heard of Occam's Razor?

Christie

Caber Feidh ish Deerhounds

Holistically Raising Our Dogs Since 1986

http://www.caberfeidh.com

http://doggedblog.com

[Guest guest]

[MikeP] ...he told me that the father of a housemate

has severe reactions to wheat, but can eat a half a loaf of that

commercial Ezekial wheat bread with no problems. That is a pretty

compelling anecdote, and the information was from a first-hand source,

although I would like to verify the details of exactly what kind of

Ezekial bread is being referred to.

Just because the father can eat half a loaf without noticing a

reaction, doesn't mean his villi aren't being damaged. He can't be

certain without being 'scoped.

[MikeP] Sure, absolutely. I think people like that are crazy for even

gambling with it. But what was interesting to me was the possibility

that sprouting could have such dramatic effect. I had understood it to

be a minor effect. It's a crazy world that people are so fixated on

one category of food like that. I mean, I don't haven't the slightest

indication of any kind of food allergy or intolerance, but I quit

eating grains a year or two ago without even blinking. There's just

so much other food to eat. I've thought about adding some safe grains

back in for fun or variety or accomodation to guests or the like, but

now I'm pretty committed to making a lifestyle statement and

expressing solidarity with gluten victims and fighting the cultural

hegemony of grains. And the amazing thing is that most people buy

into the myth that grains are one of the healthiest categories of

food, whereas the truth is precisely the opposite and is as clear as

black and white, verifiable by US government data on the USDA site and

so on, a trivial observation. People are shocked when you suggest that

grains are a nutritionally poor filler food.

Mike

SE Pennsylvania

The best way to predict the future is to invent it. --Alan Kay

[Guest guest]

Mike and (combined post!).

>[MikeP] Sure, absolutely. I think people like that are crazy for even

>gambling with it. But what was interesting to me was the possibility

>that sprouting could have such dramatic effect. I had understood it to

>be a minor effect.

[Heidi] The Ezekiel bread IS commonly more digestible by

a lot of folks, as is sourdough. A lot of " really reactive " celiacs

can eat it without feeling bad. And some sourdoughs have even

been tested in vitro on gut cells without causing a reaction.

You summary of why gluten wasn't such a problem was

really nice and thorough! There are still cultures who DO eat

wheat, but don't have the horrid reaction to it until they

eat " American style " wheat, which is really high in gluten and

really poorly processed.

As to the fact that gluten affects everyone's villi ... yeah,

I believe that is true, and has always been true. But

whether or not that will make the individual SICK .. ,

look at it this way: suppose half the villi were " stuck up "

with gluten after a meal, so only half the nutrients get

absorbed. Well, if the person is eating a high-nutrient

meal, or taking supplements, the person will probably

be ok anyway. Part of the gluten is NOT digested, but

that's ok too .. a LOT of what we eat isn't digested,

as it turns out. This is true in most animals also, which

is on reason why some species eat their feces (or

other animals eat a different species feces: dog eating

" catsicles " for instance!). Some of what we don't

digest can feed the wrong bacteria, which does make

people sick, and probiotics help that a lot (as in your

case, , with lactose).

I suspect that one reason for the " Mediterranean diet "

though is that eating some foods WITH wheat

mitigate it's affects. If you eat a long-fermented

artisan sourdough loaf with wine and olive oil,

the " sticky " effects of the gluten will be minimized,

and the nutrients in the wine will make up for what

isn't in the grain bread.

So yeah, it's a true thing that gluten likely messes

up everyone, but it is only the 10 to 30 percent

of the population that have the immune reaction

who get the autoimmune diseases that make

life so miserable.

>It's a crazy world that people are so fixated on

>one category of food like that.

THAT continues to amaze me! DogtorJ mentioned that

60% of the SAD is wheat or dairy based ... I'd guess a lot

of the rest of the diet is based on corn or soy. Whereas

the average Native American ate something like 200 different

plant species and a lot of various animals (and bugs!).

> And the amazing thing is that most people buy

>into the myth that grains are one of the healthiest categories of

>food, whereas the truth is precisely the opposite and is as clear as

>black and white, verifiable by US government data on the USDA site and

>so on, a trivial observation. People are shocked when you suggest that

>grains are a nutritionally poor filler food.

THAT myth amazes me too. People still keep asking " but if

I stop eating gluten, won't that cause health problems? " . And

mind you these are people who are not eating whole grains,

so they are talking about the nutritional value of white

bread, which is like no nutritional value at all by ANYONE's

database.

>

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Not to divert attention from all the misery that grains can inflict on the

gut, but what was most striking to me when I went off grains for three

years, than had 2-3 years of grain eating before giving up on them once

again (this time, I'm determined, for good), was the number they did on my

teeth. Only in the years I was off grains, was I also without cavities.

http://www.taichi4seniors.com

[Guest guest]

>>It's also true that once the leaky gut is repaired, the intestinal flora

>>re-balanced, and all the glands and organs functioning correctly, the

>>ability to tolerate foods increases.

>

>This is true, but I believe the IgA reaction to gluten actually takes place

>in the gut, or I think that's the primary location of reaction. The

>Glutenator can correct me if I'm wrong.

Nope, I agree!

It's absolutely true that for IgG allergies, healing leaky gut is

the key. But it's the IgA allergies that seem to be causing

leaky gut (per the most current research). Gluten intolerance

(in the sense we are talking about it)

is IgA. No one has yet been able to " heal " an IgA intolerance,

though the IgA antibodies do go away eventually and

at that point, " slipups " might not cause such awful sympoms.

IgA are the antibodies produced in the gut: IgG are the antibodies

produced in the blood.

People who claim to be " healed " seem to have plenty

of ongoing gut damage from the gluten they are eating, when

a biopsy is done. IgA intolerance is like high blood pressure

or diabetes: the symptoms can disappear, but the condition

is still there.

So folks like me react strongly to claims that " gluten intolerance

can be healed " ! I'd love to see a study of someone with

confirmed celiac, who went back to eating gluten and

then had a confirmed state of healing over several years.

There are no such studies to date: the studies that have

been done show exactly the reverse.

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>don't you think all these wapf healthy people who consumed gluten

>(wheat, rice, rye, corn, etc.) might have had the right bact. flora in

>their gut to do this? and that's why there's so many gluten intolerant

>people? because we have lost the right flora in our gut?

>

>i think i might be onto something. or i could be way off.

>

>laura in nj

You are absolutely on the right track ... in fact when I

was eating gluten I was able to get rid of most of my

*symptoms* by eating probiotics. Probiotics got

rid of the IBS quite nicely.

However, like I say a lot, gluten intolerance is like high

blood pressure or diabetes. MOST people who have

it do NOT have symptoms. You can have diabetes

for years and ignore it, and until your kidneys

fail or you get gangrene or you lose your eyesight, you'd

never know your blood sugar was high.

People who

react to gluten really NEED to treat it as a toxin,

or they will get complications, just like folks with

diabetes will get complications if they don't deal

with the diabetes. But not everyone has diabetes,

and not everyone has gluten intolerance.

Getting rid of the gut symptoms does NOT

heal the disease though. The IgA reaction messes

up your hormones and antibodies, and the most

common side effects are autoimmune diseases

like lupus and thyroid problems, mental issues

like depression, and cancer.

However, the gluten we are talking about here is

not in corn or rice. Some folks are in fact allergic

to those grains, but it's a different genetic thing

probably.

And, some folks react to starchy grains in a different

way, because they don't digest them well. THAT is

also a different thing. And some folks react

to starchy grains with blood sugar problems, which is

yet a different problem. In all these cases, probiotics

help a lot.

But the fact that you can, if you are careful, eat

a grain based diet and still be " ok " does not

mean it's an ideal diet. I mean, I DO eat white rice

and white (non-gluten) bread, but I don't pretend

it's great food, any more than my brownies

are " good " for me. They just aren't as devastatingly

BAD for me as gluten stuff is.

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

> Relevant to the above, a couple of years ago a very provacative 2-

part article by Lloyd Pye appeared in Nexus magazine, called DARWINISM:

A CRUMBLING THEORY.

>

> It can be found on the internet at

> http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles.html

>

> Look down the page on the right hand side.

>

> Best,

> Nenah

nenah, not meaning to sound like the lazy person i actually am in not

reading that 2 part article series...what does aliens have to do with

gluten intolerance, if i might ask you to cut to the chase, LOL?

laura

[Guest guest]

>

> I think Suze's explantion that only one of the groups that Weston

Price

> looked at ate a gluten grain, and that one was fermented for two

weeks,

> answered the question without bringing space aliens into the

equation! Ever

> heard of Occam's Razor?

>

No christie, what is it?

laura

[Guest guest]

..

>

> However, like I say a lot, gluten intolerance is like high

> blood pressure or diabetes. MOST people who have

> it do NOT have symptoms. You can have diabetes

> for years and ignore it, and until your kidneys

> fail or you get gangrene or you lose your eyesight, you'd

> never know your blood sugar was high.

Heidi, i don't understand this. i'm borderline diabetic. i can

always tell when my blood sugar is creeping up...i get a funny taste

in my mouth (not always reliable), i get more thirsty, and the

clincher is i have to get up at night to pee.

when i can sleep 7-9 hours without having to get up to pee, many

nights in a row, my blood sugar reflects this. it is not high.

>

people say diabetes has no symptoms...i disagree. maybe you just

have to know what they are.

laura

[Guest guest]

[Nenah] My point is, this guy's data that tiny little grains logically

could not have naturally evolved given the circumstances, suggest that

perhaps humans were never intended to eat grains, no matter where

grains come from.

[Mike] Not being able to stand my curiosity, I read that 2-part

article (a classic example of sloppy and unconvincing fringe science

journalism by someone who definitely doesn't subscribe to Occam's

Razor!), but I couldn't figure out what connection it might possibly

have to this gluten topic and I didn't see any mention of grains or

any data about them not being to evolve. Am I missing something?

Mike

SE Pennsylvania

The best way to predict the future is to invent it. --Alan Kay

[Guest guest]

>> Not being able to stand my curiosity, I read that 2-part

article <<

Illustrating yet another famous concept, " Curiousity killed the cat. "

Christie

Caber Feidh ish Deerhounds

Holistically Raising Our Dogs Since 1986

http://www.caberfeidh.com

http://doggedblog.com

[Guest guest]

>Heidi, i don't understand this. i'm borderline diabetic. i can

>always tell when my blood sugar is creeping up...i get a funny taste

>in my mouth (not always reliable), i get more thirsty, and the

>clincher is i have to get up at night to pee.

>

>when i can sleep 7-9 hours without having to get up to pee, many

>nights in a row, my blood sugar reflects this. it is not high.

>>

>people say diabetes has no symptoms...i disagree. maybe you just

>have to know what they are.

>

>laura

That's a good point. And it is similar in gluten intolerance ...

some folks really can't tell when they are reacting to gluten

and some folks get deathly ill. And some folks just don't

recognize the symptoms. Not all diabetics can tell

when their blood sugar is high ... which is why they

invented test kits.

But doctors routinely TEST for high blood sugar, so most

folks who have it get notified of the fact eventually.

Now suppose your doctor didn't know about the

" blood sugar test " . You kept getting more and more

thirsty and having a weird taste in your mouth and

have to pee a lot ... but you don't know what is the

problem. Your doctor tells you " it's normal for a lot

of people " so you ignore it and read books about

your body's need for water. Then your eyes start

going bad. By the time you get diagnosed, you have

permanent damage.

THAT is the situation for most gluten intolerant

folks these days. They either really have no symptoms,

or they don't know that the symptoms are related to

gluten. But the doctors don't know enough to do

the test.

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

On 5/28/05, Anton <michaelantonparker@...> wrote:

> And the amazing thing is that most people buy

> into the myth that grains are one of the healthiest categories of

> food, whereas the truth is precisely the opposite and is as clear as

> black and white, verifiable by US government data on the USDA site and

> so on, a trivial observation. People are shocked when you suggest that

> grains are a nutritionally poor filler food.

One of my students reacted with some level of shock when I told her my

pre-workout meal was generally something like a hamburger with green

vegetables. She said I should eat something healthy like Ritz

crackers. (!)

Chris

[Guest guest]

> One of my students reacted with some level of shock when I told her my

> pre-workout meal was generally something like a hamburger with green

> vegetables. She said I should eat something healthy like Ritz

> crackers. (!)

I went on a picnic with a guy and when I declined to eat any

baguette--mumbled I was " allergic " or something--he said, " oh, that's

too bad, cause it's a great source of carbohydrates " . Ay ay ay.

B.