Hunting

[Guest guest]

Robin Ann,

>>Deanna

>>officially certified hunter for most of N America

>>

>>

>Deanne, I'm just dying to know: what does that mean? Are you hunting

>now? Cool.. ~Robin Ann

>

Well, not yet, but I am legal. All of us are, anywhere we want to hunt

in most of the continent (with permit, of course). Different states

have regs with regards to kids especially, so both boys are good to go

now. I shot a gun yesterday for the first time in 17 years and did very

well - as well as sharp shooter DH. I have a 50lb compound bow for

hunting. We will probably wait until the turkeys of spring to begin.

None of us have any experience, so we want to learn first. Also, young

ds has to draw a 40lb bow to hunt. He is working up to that now. We

could hunt deer this year, but I don't know. Archers get one month of

hunting deer without the gunners, which is nice. We may do gun hunting

too, perhaps. But it's coming up quickly and we won't be ready,

probably. But it's debatable. DH and I could in theory, anyway. We'll

see.

But with all this talk of dry aging, I am wondering about deer and other

game: would I and should I want to dry age deer meat? Could I hang it

in the garage in cool weather? How did the natives without

refrigeration do it? We saw a great video yesterday on field dressing a

deer. These guys gutted, skinned and chopped up this buck in minutes

after they shot it. It was a bit more involved than doing chickens, but

very doable with practice, I bet.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

>But with all this talk of dry aging, I am wondering about deer and other

>game: would I and should I want to dry age deer meat? Could I hang it

>in the garage in cool weather? How did the natives without

>refrigeration do it? We saw a great video yesterday on field dressing a

>deer. These guys gutted, skinned and chopped up this buck in minutes

>after they shot it. It was a bit more involved than doing chickens, but

>very doable with practice, I bet.

>

>Deanna

When we harvest the steer, I watch and so did my dh this time, to learn

how to do it! They have classes too. We know hunters who do all their

own cutting and freezing too ... it's a LOT of work, and they don't

hang the deer at all.

Most of the custom butchers around here though WILL hang deer, moose,

and elk, and do the cutting and wrapping. It is recommended not to harvest

your steer during deer season, so you can get " hanging space " . They don't like

to hang lean meat as long because of the lack of fat on the outside, it gets

dried out. The temps they use are somewhat lower than one's garage would

be, but it depends on the time of year.

In one homesteading movie I

watched, the guy just hung a deer joint outside his shack. It got moldy on

the outside, but he just cut off the mold and kept cutting off pieces for

dinner. Birds they hung til the feathers came loose (I highly suspect they

taste different at that point ...)

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Heidi,

>When we harvest the steer, I watch and so did my dh this time, to learn

>how to do it! They have classes too. We know hunters who do all their

>own cutting and freezing too ... it's a LOT of work, and they don't

>hang the deer at all.

>

>

I need to get some information on this. In the video from class, they

killed the deer, found it, gutted it, hung it upside-down by the hind

legs on a coat hangar contraption, and proceeded to skin and process

it. They used a knife and a saw for the spine. They put it in a cooler

all nice and neat - mainly to keep things politically correct. We don't

want to offend anyone with a deer or three hanging over the edge of our

vehicles.

>Most of the custom butchers around here though WILL hang deer, moose,

>and elk, and do the cutting and wrapping. It is recommended not to harvest

>your steer during deer season, so you can get " hanging space " . They don't like

>to hang lean meat as long because of the lack of fat on the outside, it gets

>dried out. The temps they use are somewhat lower than one's garage would

>be, but it depends on the time of year.

>

>

Maybe I could find such a butcher to hang and cut it for me. When we

hunt deer with a bow, it will be in bow only season, which around here

is the month of October. It is maybe 60-80 outside here then, hard to

say. I also see that to shoot a deer responsibly, a gun may be a good

tool for it until skill is really honed. I sure don't want to wound an

animal. A gun is just more of a sure thing for accuracy with big game.

My bow is powerful enough to do it, but it is a consideration to kill it

clean and quickly. It's just a whole lot easier to aim a gun than a bow

and arrow. And you can't rest a bow on anything, you hold it way out

there and steady it. It's a great skill, and I like that sort of thing,

but if we hunt deer soon, it may be with a .30-30 or .30-06 rifle.

Shooting the head off a turkey with those helicopter-blade-like " Gobbler

Guillotine " broad heads is just a better bet for the beginner

bowhunter. Or the wild pigs around here.

>In one homesteading movie I

>watched, the guy just hung a deer joint outside his shack. It got moldy on

>the outside, but he just cut off the mold and kept cutting off pieces for

>dinner. Birds they hung til the feathers came loose (I highly suspect they

>taste different at that point ...)

>

I think I need to search up some of these movies and books. Hoyt's DVD

is all about their products and the " kill " , never the practical aspects

of what happens afterwards, lol. Our library sucks, so I frequent half

priced books for this sort of thing.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

>

Deanne:

>I need to get some information on this. In the video from class, they

>killed the deer, found it, gutted it, hung it upside-down by the hind

>legs on a coat hangar contraption, and proceeded to skin and process

>it. They used a knife and a saw for the spine. They put it in a cooler

>all nice and neat - mainly to keep things politically correct. We don't

>want to offend anyone with a deer or three hanging over the edge of our

>vehicles.

Ah, well, around here you use a " deer bag " and toss it in the back

of your truck.

>Maybe I could find such a butcher to hang and cut it for me. When we

>hunt deer with a bow, it will be in bow only season, which around here

>is the month of October. It is maybe 60-80 outside here then, hard to

>say. I also see that to shoot a deer responsibly, a gun may be a good

>tool for it until skill is really honed. I sure don't want to wound an

>animal. A gun is just more of a sure thing for accuracy with big game.

Most hunters carry a sidearm ... one in case of wounding an animal

(which can happen even with a rifle) and two in case a cougar gets

too interested in the results. Yellowjackets (hornets) can be a

problem too, esp. if you are allergic to them.

>

>Shooting the head off a turkey with those helicopter-blade-like " Gobbler

>Guillotine " broad heads is just a better bet for the beginner

>bowhunter. Or the wild pigs around here.

That is actually tempting to me. If they work well, the bird would never

know what hit them, which would be better than catching them. Esp.

for the big birds: our ducks are pretty big at this point, and strong.

When I made comments earlier about raising birds and then shooting

them, it was because some folks around here raise pheasant, then

release them and hunt them with buckshot. It's a pain to get all the shot

out, plus it gets all over the property (and of course you wouldn't want

to use lead, but folks do).

>I think I need to search up some of these movies and books. Hoyt's DVD

>is all about their products and the " kill " , never the practical aspects

>of what happens afterwards, lol. Our library sucks, so I frequent half

>priced books for this sort of thing.

The old books, written a couple of centuries ago, are interesting in

this regard too. People were less squeamish about hunting (remember

the days of skulls in the recroom and bear skin rugs?). The homesteading

books and sites are good.

>

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Heidi,

>Deanne:

>

>

Is this a new trend to spell my name wrong, hee hee. It's me, Deanna

(Dee ANN uh).

>

>Most hunters carry a sidearm ... one in case of wounding an animal

>(which can happen even with a rifle) and two in case a cougar gets

>too interested in the results. Yellowjackets (hornets) can be a

>problem too, esp. if you are allergic to them.

>

>

In TX, you can hunt with a hand gun. But with a deer, even if you

fatally wound it, it's often gone out of sight in no time. Rarely do

bucks fall in line of sight of the hunter. So while a sidearm is a good

thing, unless you made a good shot to the vital organs, you may never

find the animal again, let alone finish him off. Of course, you still

have to search good and hard, but if you don't mortally wound the animal

straight off the bat, it's not a good thing. It is this type of

scenario which I will try to avoid at all costs.

>

>That is actually tempting to me. If they work well, the bird would never

>know what hit them, which would be better than catching them. Esp.

>for the big birds: our ducks are pretty big at this point, and strong.

>

>

That's right. DH shot the little Silkie rooster in the neck and he went

instantly straight down and never knew a thing. No noise, no stressing

the others, nothing. He shoots a 70lb. Oneida bow which is a cross

between a recurve and a compound. It is one funky-looking thing to see

in action. But if you can get the bird you want away from the others,

or even in a group, it is clean and hassle free. Whereas when you go

poking around and grab one, it squawks and there is knowledge by the

others that the evil farmer did something bad. The hunter can go

undetected. We butchered two others with an ax and DH said he likes the

bow method best of all. It is the most natural for these bird who think

it's their garden to roam in, not ours (especially as we aren't out

there much lately). They'll have a fit when we plant the fall greens

soon, lol.

>When I made comments earlier about raising birds and then shooting

>them, it was because some folks around here raise pheasant, then

>release them and hunt them with buckshot. It's a pain to get all the shot

>out, plus it gets all over the property (and of course you wouldn't want

>to use lead, but folks do).

>

>

Oh, well you'd be happy to know Texas Parks and Wildlife does indeed

address the lead shot problem. Steel shot is a better choice

obviously. And again, you have to practice ... but then, you're an

Aspie perfectionist, you just keep practicing with a bow until it is all

in the zone and you'll be fine. And besides, women are better shots

than men. And you guys just grin and bear it, cuz it's a fact,

statistically speaking.

>The old books, written a couple of centuries ago, are interesting in

>this regard too. People were less squeamish about hunting (remember

>the days of skulls in the recroom and bear skin rugs?). The homesteading

>books and sites are good.

>

Goo idea. Friday we'll be hitting the omni theatre and the antique

mall, yippee!!! I love old books and will search out what I can in this

regard.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

Deanna:

>Is this a new trend to spell my name wrong, hee hee. It's me, Deanna

>(Dee ANN uh).

Nah, no new trend, just my old trend of sloppy typing.

>In TX, you can hunt with a hand gun. But with a deer, even if you

>fatally wound it, it's often gone out of sight in no time. Rarely do

>bucks fall in line of sight of the hunter. So while a sidearm is a good

>thing, unless you made a good shot to the vital organs, you may never

>find the animal again, let alone finish him off. Of course, you still

>have to search good and hard, but if you don't mortally wound the animal

>straight off the bat, it's not a good thing. It is this type of

>scenario which I will try to avoid at all costs.

The hunters I know personally use VERY high powered ammo

for the initial shot. And it's usually a one-shot deal. What gets

me is how FAR they are from the target. The sights on those

things are scary. The sidearm is strictly backup (and probably

makes them feel safer or something, nice weight at the hip!).

> >

>That's right. DH shot the little Silkie rooster in the neck and he went

>instantly straight down and never knew a thing. No noise, no stressing

>the others, nothing.

I watched " the killer " go into the Longhorn herd and shoot one. He was

like 10 feet away from it. Shot it, it went down immediately, and the

others didn't even move. Watched curiously as he cut it up.

The same animals though, will get very bent out of shape if,

say a dog comes into view. My chickens

don't react much if I " harvest " one of them, but if a coyote is around

they all hide. A person could get really philisophical at this point!

> He shoots a 70lb. Oneida bow which is a cross

>between a recurve and a compound. It is one funky-looking thing to see

>in action. But if you can get the bird you want away from the others,

>or even in a group, it is clean and hassle free. Whereas when you go

>poking around and grab one, it squawks and there is knowledge by the

>others that the evil farmer did something bad. The hunter can go

>undetected. We butchered two others with an ax and DH said he likes the

>bow method best of all. It is the most natural for these bird who think

>it's their garden to roam in, not ours (especially as we aren't out

>there much lately). They'll have a fit when we plant the fall greens

>soon, lol.

I tend to agree, esp. if you are a good shot. Something new to look

into! I don't believe ours feel any pain per se, but they really, really

don't like being picked up at all. It doesn't seem to affect the others ...

once when we were moving some chickens at night, we were grabbing

them one at a time, holding them upside down (they go quiescent then)

and moving them. Each squawked as we grabbed it, and the others

squawked too. Then we came back and grabbed the next. 10 chickens.

NONE of them bothered moving to another perch.

Like I said, one might get philisophical. It's almost like the animal

and the " predator " (in this case the farmer, usually a 4-legged beast) have

a kind of pact. Most of the time they get fed and protected. Sometimes

some get taken. In the wild, the predator acts as a population control,

weeding out of the old and sickly, and protection from other predators.

There almost seems a kind of co-existence, truce, or symbiosis involved.

>

>Oh, well you'd be happy to know Texas Parks and Wildlife does indeed

>address the lead shot problem. Steel shot is a better choice

>obviously. And again, you have to practice ... but then, you're an

>Aspie perfectionist, you just keep practicing with a bow until it is all

>in the zone and you'll be fine. And besides, women are better shots

>than men. And you guys just grin and bear it, cuz it's a fact,

>statistically speaking.

My dd LOVES the bow. I like it because you don't have to buy ammo,

it doesn't leave shells lying around, and it's more traditional, and it

doesn't make NOISE. However, with your name I keep thinking of ...

the warrior goddess ...

> Good idea. Friday we'll be hitting the omni theatre and the antique

>mall, yippee!!! I love old books and will search out what I can in this

>regard.

Snohomish (the town nearest to me) is an antique haven ...

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Heidi,

>

>The hunters I know personally use VERY high powered ammo

>for the initial shot. And it's usually a one-shot deal. What gets

>me is how FAR they are from the target. The sights on those

>things are scary. The sidearm is strictly backup (and probably

>makes them feel safer or something, nice weight at the hip!).

>

>

And don't forget, they sit in climate controlled houses they call

" blinds " . Oh, and now some of them set cameras out to follow the deer

and behavior over days. How sporting or ethical is that?

>I watched " the killer " go into the Longhorn herd and shoot one. He was

>like 10 feet away from it. Shot it, it went down immediately, and the

>others didn't even move. Watched curiously as he cut it up.

> The same animals though, will get very bent out of shape if,

>say a dog comes into view. My chickens

>don't react much if I " harvest " one of them, but if a coyote is around

>they all hide. A person could get really philisophical at this point!

>

Vedy interesting. It sure seems better than leading them all to

slaughter. I think it adds merit to the small farm paradigm.

>

>My dd LOVES the bow. I like it because you don't have to buy ammo,

>it doesn't leave shells lying around, and it's more traditional, and it

>doesn't make NOISE. However, with your name I keep thinking of ...

>the warrior goddess ...

>

Good for her. My hunter class instructor was the one who clued me in on

autistic hunters being really bent on perfect shooting. He has taught a

few and says they'll keep at it until they are hitting the bullseye

consistently. Makes sense, just as these same folks will work on

solving a problem (puzzle) until it's done, code until someone calls

them away ... you know what I mean, right? ;-)

Oh, can I be Warrior Goddess???? Call me , I don't care. I want

that title, but I think I should earn it first, lol. Heidi, you need a

bow if you don't have one. Start with a recurve or long bow and see

what you think. Only thing about shooting a bow is losing arrows. I

have 3 carbon arrows embedded in the lawn somewhere, lol. With a

compound bow, you must use a block target or risk hitting whatever is

beyond it, much like a gun. I like the silence too. In the field, you

can miss your target and still have a go at it; not so with a gun which

scares everything for miles.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

>And don't forget, they sit in climate controlled houses they call

> " blinds " . Oh, and now some of them set cameras out to follow the deer

>and behavior over days. How sporting or ethical is that?

Ours drive all over in 4WD looking for game ...

>Good for her. My hunter class instructor was the one who clued me in on

>autistic hunters being really bent on perfect shooting. He has taught a

>few and says they'll keep at it until they are hitting the bullseye

>consistently. Makes sense, just as these same folks will work on

>solving a problem (puzzle) until it's done, code until someone calls

>them away ... you know what I mean, right? ;-)

Huh. I didn't think about that, but all this emphasis on perfection

and form (in marshall arts too) is a VERY aspie sort of thing, ain't

it? Ok, so now we have programming, fiber arts, and archery ...

which, BTW, are all in the realm of Minerva too (goddess of the

household arts (technology of the time!) and " good war " ).

>Oh, can I be Warrior Goddess???? Call me , I don't care. I want

>that title, but I think I should earn it first, lol. Heidi, you need a

>bow if you don't have one. Start with a recurve or long bow and see

>what you think. Only thing about shooting a bow is losing arrows. I

>have 3 carbon arrows embedded in the lawn somewhere, lol. With a

>compound bow, you must use a block target or risk hitting whatever is

>beyond it, much like a gun. I like the silence too. In the field, you

>can miss your target and still have a go at it; not so with a gun which

>scares everything for miles.

It sounds like a great idea. We used my dd's bow to shoot a rope up

into a tree to grow the hops, which was just so darn USEFUL

too. We have nice blocked targets, though the guy at the store

was telling me lots of stories of lost arrows! My dd placed the

target in front of a hill, which helps a lot.

OK, here is a techie solution ... each arrow should have a little tracer circuit

and you can

go around with your gizmo to find them ... like finding lost car keys ...

Great for hand-eye coordination too. BTW two other women

I know who are rather Aspie is also a bow hunter big time ...

and there seem to have been a whole coterie of women

archers in the Greek days (which spawned the whole " Amazon "

myth).

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Heidi,

>

>Huh. I didn't think about that, but all this emphasis on perfection

>and form (in marshall arts too) is a VERY aspie sort of thing, ain't

>it? Ok, so now we have programming, fiber arts, and archery ...

>which, BTW, are all in the realm of Minerva too (goddess of the

>household arts (technology of the time!) and " good war " ).

>

>

DS is real big on maps and roads. Everything he makes is accurate. I

get lost in any major city in the US, I hope he's with me, cuz he knows

all streets and such. So yeah, I can see that crossing over to

hunting. He is most interested in learning to call - you know, turkey

and doe calls.

Yes, we can write software, make kimchi, shoot a bow, bone a chicken,

teach physics to our kids - very much like Minerva. We are goddesses!

Does your man realize what a goddess you are, hee hee? I remind mine

daily <g>.

>

>It sounds like a great idea. We used my dd's bow to shoot a rope up

>into a tree to grow the hops, which was just so darn USEFUL

>too. We have nice blocked targets, though the guy at the store

>was telling me lots of stories of lost arrows! My dd placed the

>target in front of a hill, which helps a lot.

>

>

Good for dd on the placement of the target. That's the safest set up.

Hops on a rope in a tree. I am unfamiliar with that. How did you do it?

>OK, here is a techie solution ... each arrow should have a little tracer

circuit and you can

>go around with your gizmo to find them ... like finding lost car keys ...

>

>

Yeah, or if I had a metal detector I'd be set. I scraped a rake across

the path each took to no avail. Um, I learned real quick to be careful

shooting broadheads and will not use them on anything that I don't

intend to kill. The path they can take when they skim another surface

is uncanny and dangerous. I had an arrow make a right turn at a chain

fence and lodge itself 70' further into a wood fence! If I didn't have

witnesses to that, I don't know if I'd believe it myself. That was with

a recurve. Compound bows make all the difference in the world with

accuracy. They are shorter, so it does take some stability to hold 4-5

lbs out in front, but easy to keep it drawn at 10% of the original

poundage. And there's less bulk when stalking or whatnot. There's a

whole physics to compound archery. If you are interested, check out:

http://physics.mercer.edu/petepag/combow.html

>Great for hand-eye coordination too. BTW two other women

>I know who are rather Aspie is also a bow hunter big time ...

>and there seem to have been a whole coterie of women

>archers in the Greek days (which spawned the whole " Amazon "

>myth).

>

If you have a clean source of animals, it is a whole lot easier and less

time consuming than raising and feeding your own food. Sure it takes

time and effort for the short term, but it isn't a daily affair like

raising cattle. Heidi, I can see you becoming one of these big time bow

hunteresses, and new myths and songs will be sung in your honor, lol.

(Just what you need)

Deanna

[Guest guest]

PS. My younger ds was the one who got us ALL into archery. It all

started with his little 20 lb. recurve bow last year. Over a thousand

dollars and 3 compound bows later, we still aren't completely outfitted!

Deanna

>>My dd placed the

>>target in front of a hill, which helps a lot.

>>

[Guest guest]

Deanna:

> Yes, we can write software, make kimchi, shoot a bow, bone a chicken,

>teach physics to our kids - very much like Minerva. We are goddesses!

>Does your man realize what a goddess you are, hee hee? I remind mine

>daily <g>.

Actually he does, which is kinda nice! (He's got his own " god " status

for what he does, but we don't overlap much).

>Good for dd on the placement of the target. That's the safest set up.

>Hops on a rope in a tree. I am unfamiliar with that. How did you do it?

Yeah, having an aspie guy do target setup is good. Thinks of all

the details!

Hops are a very, very long vine and they like to climb. It's hard to

build a trellis big enough. I saw the commercial setup and they have

these huge poles with wires running up the pole and between them

(and I mean huge, 30 feet or so high?). Anyway, we have TREES so

I didn't see the point in putting in a pole ... just ran a long, long rope

(got a huge bale of thick rope on ebay for not much money) up into

an old alder. Then when the hops are ripe, we can pull down the rope

and harvest them, leaving one thin rope for the winter so we can pull

the rope back up again in the spring. Hops die back in the fall.

> >

>Yeah, or if I had a metal detector I'd be set. I scraped a rake across

>the path each took to no avail. Um, I learned real quick to be careful

>shooting broadheads and will not use them on anything that I don't

>intend to kill. The path they can take when they skim another surface

>is uncanny and dangerous. I had an arrow make a right turn at a chain

>fence and lodge itself 70' further into a wood fence!

There was a neat episode of mythbusters where they tried the

ol' robin hood " split the arrow " trick, and it showed arrows in

slo mo, in flight. Really interesting! Those puppies wiggle as they fly!

> If I didn't have

>witnesses to that, I don't know if I'd believe it myself. That was with

>a recurve. Compound bows make all the difference in the world with

>accuracy. They are shorter, so it does take some stability to hold 4-5

>lbs out in front, but easy to keep it drawn at 10% of the original

>poundage. And there's less bulk when stalking or whatnot. There's a

>whole physics to compound archery. If you are interested, check out:

>

>http://physics.mercer.edu/petepag/combow.html

Wow. I think I just need something very minor though, esp. if

they rebound! Shooting 30 feet or so is plenty for me!

>

>If you have a clean source of animals, it is a whole lot easier and less

>time consuming than raising and feeding your own food. Sure it takes

>time and effort for the short term, but it isn't a daily affair like

>raising cattle.

We raise food too, mainly ducks and chickens and a couple of goats.

But cows are too big ... if we raise them they will be little ones! Like

those shaggy highland cows. The animals we raise though, are part

of our " biosystem " . The chickens also weed and debug the garden

and eat our garbage, and the ducks keep the lawn mowed and

eat the dandelions and slugs. The goats keep the blackberries

and salmonberries under control, and provide angora hair for

spinning and weaving. My next project is to raise meat chickens

from the " innards " of one of the cows we got for eating.

We hadn't really intended to raise food when we started out,

I just have this aspie thing about " waste " and want everything

to be used. (Right now I'm making rugs from our old towels

and socks, stuff that's too used to give away).

But yeah, for most folks I think just going on a " cow hunt "

is a good cheap alternative to supermarket shopping or buying

over the internet, without the committment it takes to

go hunting or raise your own. All it takes is a good chest

freezer, which is a good investment under any conditions.

> Heidi, I can see you becoming one of these big time bow

>hunteresses, and new myth

>s and songs will be sung in your honor, lol.

>(Just what you need)

I've often thought that the world needs a new

mythology/religion that is more eco-friendly

and woman oriented, but I have no desire to

be the focus of it! I could see using bagels as

" clay pigeons " though for target practice ...

that would make a great icon ...

>

Heidi (future huntress ...)

[Guest guest]

>PS. My younger ds was the one who got us ALL into archery. It all

>started with his little 20 lb. recurve bow last year. Over a thousand

>dollars and 3 compound bows later, we still aren't completely outfitted!

>

>Deanna

Ah, so it's one of those hobbies like boating or gun hunting ...

you just keep buying and buying!

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Heidi,

>

>Actually he does, which is kinda nice! (He's got his own " god " status

>for what he does, but we don't overlap much).

>

>

How sweet. DH and I are the same in this regard: our skill sets

complement fabulously. He does car maintenance (even timing belts),

plumbing, electrical and stuff like that. Oh, and he does the tilling

and mowing outside. As a frugal electrical engineer, he really comes in

handy. He comes up with all these ideas for things like putting a

welder's glass in our old, smaller telescope to study the sun. He tends

to be very detail oriented, whereas I am a big picture manager type.

>Yeah, having an aspie guy do target setup is good. Thinks of all

>the details!

>

>

I guess so!

>Hops are a very, very long vine and they like to climb. It's hard to

>build a trellis big enough. I saw the commercial setup and they have

>these huge poles with wires running up the pole and between them

>(and I mean huge, 30 feet or so high?). Anyway, we have TREES so

>I didn't see the point in putting in a pole ... just ran a long, long rope

>(got a huge bale of thick rope on ebay for not much money) up into

>an old alder. Then when the hops are ripe, we can pull down the rope

>and harvest them, leaving one thin rope for the winter so we can pull

>the rope back up again in the spring. Hops die back in the fall.

>

>

Is that what you use in your GF porter? That's a really nice technique

using the trees for poles, so to speak. And btw, how do you manage all

these endeavors, even with help? How much sleep do you get a night, if

you don't mind sharing.

>

>There was a neat episode of mythbusters where they tried the

>ol' robin hood " split the arrow " trick, and it showed arrows in

>slo mo, in flight. Really interesting! Those puppies wiggle as they fly!

>

>

Right. In hunter education we touched on that. The instructor said

that could be improved for less arcing, but I forget how. It concerned

the bow or something. I have seen an arrow shot in the back of another

in a target, but not in flight.

>Wow. I think I just need something very minor though, esp. if

>they rebound! Shooting 30 feet or so is plenty for me!

>

>

You need (in TX) at least a 40 lb. bow to hunt. Mine is a 40-50 lb.

Hoyt, so I am legal without question. More than 30 feet and you lose

accuracy. So yeah, it takes skill and quiet to get deer. Unless they

are docile suburbia deer.

> We raise food too, mainly ducks and chickens and a couple of goats.

>But cows are too big ... if we raise them they will be little ones! Like

>those shaggy highland cows. The animals we raise though, are part

>of our " biosystem " . The chickens also weed and debug the garden

>and eat our garbage, and the ducks keep the lawn mowed and

>eat the dandelions and slugs. The goats keep the blackberries

>and salmonberries under control, and provide angora hair for

>spinning and weaving. My next project is to raise meat chickens

>from the " innards " of one of the cows we got for eating.

>We hadn't really intended to raise food when we started out,

>I just have this aspie thing about " waste " and want everything

>to be used. (Right now I'm making rugs from our old towels

>and socks, stuff that's too used to give away).

>

>

Raising meat chickens from the innards of a cow. What the heck? I'd

like ducks. Young ds keeps talking Muscovies, as they don't need a

pond, apparently. I wouldn't mind digging a pond after some pressing

projects are complete either. DH is not keen on goats, and our back

fence is not the best now. I think it might be too much. Now turkey is

another thing. I saw some wild turkeys just this morning running on the

trail. And a young doe as well. Good food roaming around all over

within a short distance from my property (sometimes on it). So it does

make sense to get into hunting as there ain't much due west of here for

hundreds of miles, except free range wildlife.

Rugs out of towels and socks? I'd love to learn more about that.

Sounds like my frugal dh. We don't generate 1/5 the garbage our

neighbors do. And rarely will people recycle, as the consumer drives

the stuff to a dumpster. But it's really no big deal. And what really

chaps my hide is giving funds to the oil companies to develop

alternative energy in this new energy give away! Hello? Who has been

squelching any alternative to oil for decades??? Duh. (Okay, I know,

if this develops, we'd better add the POLITICS tag).

>But yeah, for most folks I think just going on a " cow hunt "

>is a good cheap alternative to supermarket shopping or buying

>over the internet, without the committment it takes to

>go hunting or raise your own. All it takes is a good chest

>freezer, which is a good investment under any conditions.

>

>

Well, yes, I was talking with my egg and occasional lamb guy recently

about you pick produce, and how it can be carried over to other things.

" You Pluck Chicken " and " You Harvest Beef " come to mind. And if you

gutted the animal, you could get all the innards you wanted as well.

Cow would be easy, eh? After mile 2 of my trail, I see many cattle

farms. If I walk, they all come over, as they must think I have food

for them. I talk with 'em and ask if they want to come with me, lol.

>I've often thought that the world needs a new

>mythology/religion that is more eco-friendly

>and woman oriented, but I have no desire to

>be the focus of it! I could see using bagels as

> " clay pigeons " though for target practice ...

>that would make a great icon ...

>

>

If not you, who? Bagels would get sprayed all over and feed the birds,

brilliant!

>Heidi (future huntress ...)

>

Alright! You go, girl! You'll do well, and your dd too. I think it's

an important skill to learn, along with general wilderness survival.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

>Ah, so it's one of those hobbies like boating or gun hunting ...

>you just keep buying and buying!

>

Exactly. I guess we got lucky in our big purchases. We bought from ma

and pa archer family business, which was being sold as they moved out of

state. We got 2 new bows at cost +$25 each. But now we need calls,

clothes, stands, knifes, etc. We have a colt .45 revolver, but no big

guns now. I like the .357 with interchangeable barrels myself. If my

aim with a bow gets really sharp, I'll stick with archery for sure.

Otherwise it all adds up.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

Deanna:

>How sweet. DH and I are the same in this regard: our skill sets

>complement fabulously. He does car maintenance (even timing belts),

>plumbing, electrical and stuff like that. Oh, and he does the tilling

>and mowing outside. As a frugal electrical engineer, he really comes in

>handy. He comes up with all these ideas for things like putting a

>welder's glass in our old, smaller telescope to study the sun. He tends

>to be very detail oriented, whereas I am a big picture manager type.

Heh heh. That sounds like us too.

>Is that what you use in your GF porter? That's a really nice technique

>using the trees for poles, so to speak. And btw, how do you manage all

>these endeavors, even with help? How much sleep do you get a night, if

>you don't mind sharing.

I don't manage very well, which is why I take a lot of shortcuts (like using

trees for poles and having the chickens weed the garden). Yes, the hops

are what I use for porter: They are the most amazing tasting hops I've

ever had! Most of my plants are the sort that go wild and they aren't

tended well. The blackberries, for instance, just kind of grow all

over and I trim them back sometimes (they are a weed in Seattle),

and the hops don't need any tending except to give them

something to grow up. The goats and ducks

trim the lawn (which USED to get mowed every other weekend but hasn't

been mown all year, and the kids do a lot of the animal caretaking these

days. I have shopping down to where I do one big run once a month

(and a meat run once or twice a year). Stuff like kefir beer and kimchi sound

timeconsuming, but really, they aren't once you get into the flow of things.

Making lunch daily is the worst, and doing dishes, but I often have help

with that.

As for sleep ... I really get all I need, which is amazing, for someone

who used to have narcolepsy. I don't use an alarm clock, so I wake

up when I wake up. Sometimes that is 6 hours, sometimes 9.

>Right. In hunter education we touched on that. The instructor said

>that could be improved for less arcing, but I forget how. It concerned

>the bow or something. I have seen an arrow shot in the back of another

>in a target, but not in flight.

This test was in a target, but it was the old kind of arrow that was supposed to

split " all the way down " . They got one to split halfway, but not split all the

way down the way it did in the movie. I thought though, that it MIGHT if the

grain was going right.

>

>You need (in TX) at least a 40 lb. bow to hunt. Mine is a 40-50 lb.

>Hoyt, so I am legal without question. More than 30 feet and you lose

>accuracy. So yeah, it takes skill and quiet to get deer. Unless they

>are docile suburbia deer.

Ah, well, mine would be " sitting ducks " in the literal sense, from 10 feet or

so.

Hunting wild game is more work than I'm up for. I'd like to get good at shooting

arrows

up around tree branches though :-)

>Raising meat chickens from the innards of a cow. What the heck?

The second ingredient in the rather expensive " meat chicken food " is " pork by

products "

meaning, most likely, pork innards. Chickens love meat, esp. kefired meat. So

my plan is to kefir the meat (chopped up) and feed that to the chicks and see

what happens. The last batch I did (as a baseline) on the commercial food and

they came

out very juicy and nice, but sickly. Cost $120 for 120 lbs of frozen chicken. If

my

kefir idea works, it would be more like $40 for 120 lbs of chicken (I'm

guessing)

and they would be getting a far better diet.

> I'd

>like ducks. Young ds keeps talking Muscovies, as they don't need a

>pond, apparently.

I might try them, they have a lot of advantages (including being really

self-reliant). But

they don't taste like " duck " I'm told. Pekins are the traditional meat duck, but

they

are very domesticated, and I think any coyote could decimate the flock easily.

Still,

they reach good size in 6 weeks or so, have nice soft feathers, and don't need

water much.

>I wouldn't mind digging a pond after some pressing

>projects are complete either.

My thoughts were originally to dig a pond, but really, it's not a great idea

for ducks unless you have a heavy-duty filter. They REALLY turn the water

grody quickly, and it needs to be changed every few days. The best thing is

an aboveground pool with a valve so you can empty it. The water is likely

very good for plants (I haven't tried it yet). We use a kid's wading pool.

I DO want a big ol' pond for trout, but I don't think I'll let the ducks in

it (they would eat the trout too).

>DH is not keen on goats, and our back

>fence is not the best now. I think it might be too much.

Our goats we put out on leads. They COULD jump their fence, but they

don't. I got them because, basically, I just like goats!

>Now turkey is

>another thing. I saw some wild turkeys just this morning running on the

>trail. And a young doe as well. Good food roaming around all over

>within a short distance from my property (sometimes on it). So it does

>make sense to get into hunting as there ain't much due west of here for

>hundreds of miles, except free range wildlife.

Yeah, if I lived in your area I think I'd feel the same. I heard a story

from an elderly woman near here. She was out in " the cabin " with the menfolk.

The men all went hunting, but she had a broken leg and had to stay home.

So she stayed on the porch, reading or whatever, with her trusty gun in case of

bear.

A big buck came into the yard: she shot it but couldn't dress it because of

her leg. The men came home, empty handed ... and saw the buck, just

waiting to be cut up.

>Rugs out of towels and socks? I'd love to learn more about that.

It's called " shirring " (google it!) and it's really pretty easy and quick.

Something

you can do without thinking about it much, which is great when you are waiting

for some computer job to finish ... I have a floor loom too, and want to do

rag rugs, but it's hard to find " loom time " .

>Sounds like my frugal dh. We don't generate 1/5 the garbage our

>neighbors do. And rarely will people recycle, as the consumer drives

>the stuff to a dumpster. But it's really no big deal. And what really

>chaps my hide is giving funds to the oil companies to develop

>alternative energy in this new energy give away! Hello? Who has been

>squelching any alternative to oil for decades??? Duh. (Okay, I know,

>if this develops, we'd better add the POLITICS tag).

Oh, don't get me started on that one! Yeah, it would have to be in the

nt-politics group!

I buy mostly in bulk, which helps, but I also feed more people than average.

We don't have garbage pickup, which is what fuels a lot of our recycling.

Recycling is now mandatory in Seattle though, so no one thinks we are

strange for it. Most people us garbage disposals though, not chickens,

but it's getting more and more common to do major composting and worm

bins. A lot of the horse owners have worm bins now, just because it's

easier to dispose of the manure that way.

> Well, yes, I was talking with my egg and occasional lamb guy recently

>about you pick produce, and how it can be carried over to other things.

> " You Pluck Chicken " and " You Harvest Beef " come to mind. And if you

>gutted the animal, you could get all the innards you wanted as well.

>Cow would be easy, eh? After mile 2 of my trail, I see many cattle

>farms. If I walk, they all come over, as they must think I have food

>for them. I talk with 'em and ask if they want to come with me, lol.

Well, I don't gut the animal, or cut it up! Chickens are enough work for me! I

just

show up when " the killer " comes. For $40 he kills and dresses the animal, and

hauls

it to the butcher who cuts it up and wraps it in those nice little packages. If

you are

there when the killer is there, you can just take the liver, heart, lungs,

spleen, fat, hide,

head, and whatever else you want.

One guy I know lost a dog, and was wandering through cattle country. He is

a hunter, and all those beef looked juicy to him too. He said as much to the

farmer, as he was asking about the dog. Farmer said " You want one? " .

Many farmers are quite happy to sell you a steer out on the grass ... the steer

get

pricier after the feed lot phase (which of course is when you DON'T want them).

I was amazed at how cheap steer are at auction (other animals too).

>If not you, who? Bagels would get sprayed all over and feed the birds,

>brilliant!

OK, now all we need is a gizmo to launch the bagels, so no one gets

contaminated ... (dh is designing a milk-carton catapult, to launch water-filled

milk cartons, for shooting practice!).

>>Heidi (future huntress ...)

>>

>Alright! You go, girl! You'll do well, and your dd too. I think it's

>an important skill to learn, along with general wilderness survival.

OK, you got me! Next trip to town we'll get a compound bow and some hunting

arrows

(and more target arrows). Must be a sign from Athena/Minerva, you being Deanna

and all ... :-)

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Heidi,

>I don't manage very well, which is why I take a lot of shortcuts (like using

>trees for poles and having the chickens weed the garden). Yes, the hops

>are what I use for porter: They are the most amazing tasting hops I've

>ever had! Most of my plants are the sort that go wild and they aren't

>tended well. The blackberries, for instance, just kind of grow all

>over and I trim them back sometimes (they are a weed in Seattle),

>and the hops don't need any tending except to give them

>something to grow up. The goats and ducks

>trim the lawn (which USED to get mowed every other weekend but hasn't

>been mown all year, and the kids do a lot of the animal caretaking these

>days. I have shopping down to where I do one big run once a month

>(and a meat run once or twice a year). Stuff like kefir beer and kimchi sound

>timeconsuming, but really, they aren't once you get into the flow of things.

>Making lunch daily is the worst, and doing dishes, but I often have help

>with that.

>

>

Well, I let the garden go to hell midsummer usually, and I like to think

I'm a pretty good manager for the most part, lol. It is just too

miserable to do anything but run at dawn. In fact, we finally got out

this week for weeds and fall garden soil prep work. And three cheers

for NT kids! I pay them for all the work they do; there is no way I

could manage the land without them, and it ain't much land yet. And, of

course, it's extremely educational to raise livestock. Young ds cares

for the chickens nearly single-handedly. He can round up the roosters

in the chicken run by himself as well. My teen weeds and gets into

preparing garden beds. So I am truly blessed. And let's face it, these

are important skills that they just would not learn from public school

most likely. Just like star gazing and hunting and computer programming

- it's nice to have the gamut of electives in the homeschool

environment, imo.

I'd rather do dishes than laundry! But I am also teaching NT cooking,

which is important for everyone to learn during teen years, afaic. And

that way I can delegate more :-) . I started cooking at 14 and really,

it has taken years of experience to get good, and I have done old

fashioned (though not always NT) cooking throughout. We do well

warriorizing, but of course, I have to have all sorts of quick and easy

snackies on hand. I have to really watch it or I end up making three

gourmet meals a day for my guys, and the dishes that go along with it!

They just need to eat way more than I do.

>As for sleep ... I really get all I need, which is amazing, for someone

>who used to have narcolepsy. I don't use an alarm clock, so I wake

>up when I wake up. Sometimes that is 6 hours, sometimes 9.

>

>

Wow, no alarm, imagine that! I sleep the same amounts as you, usually

7.5 a night. And how ever did you cure narcolepsy, which I don't have

myself. After long runs, I may go 9 hours. I really despise daylight

savings, having resided in the few states without it. When the sun

don't come up until 7, neither do I! I suppose that unless you must

follow a clock - which none of us here do, actually - then my complaint

is really meritless. Who cares what number it is? Maybe the math

person in me does, lol. It just seems more worthy of praise to be

running at 5:30 am, heh.

>Ah, well, mine would be " sitting ducks " in the literal sense, from 10 feet or

so.

>Hunting wild game is more work than I'm up for. I'd like to get good at

shooting arrows

>up around tree branches though :-)

>

>

You'll be making deer stands before ya know it, even if it's for ducks,

lol. I picked up some bowhunting books yesterday - one specifically for

whitetail deer. I really do like the idea of more skill involved.

Also, I'd like to keep an open mind about game choices. The wild boars

west of me sound like a good choice on occasion - especially since we

are barred from raising pigs here. Not that I would, but we do like a

bit of pork. Not much, just a bit.

>The second ingredient in the rather expensive " meat chicken food " is " pork by

products "

>meaning, most likely, pork innards. Chickens love meat, esp. kefired meat. So

>my plan is to kefir the meat (chopped up) and feed that to the chicks and see

>what happens. The last batch I did (as a baseline) on the commercial food and

they came

>out very juicy and nice, but sickly. Cost $120 for 120 lbs of frozen chicken.

If my

>kefir idea works, it would be more like $40 for 120 lbs of chicken (I'm

guessing)

>and they would be getting a far better diet.

>

>

Wow, I would really appreciate hearing more about this as it

materializes. What about raising tasty insects along with it for them?

My chickens love bugs. Interestingly, I was told that if I didn't

manage my birds a la Salatin's model with a chicken tractor, that

the chickens would prefer some spots, neglect others, and the land would

not receive the same benefit. But now that I am back out in the garden,

I see these guys and gals going all over the place, several times a

day! They are in over an acre of land that's fenced, and they hit it

all. Maybe I am lucky. Do expand on this from your experience with

ducks and chickens if you would. Do you have geese as well? If so,

include them, pretty please.

>I might try them, they have a lot of advantages (including being really

self-reliant). But

>they don't taste like " duck " I'm told. Pekins are the traditional meat duck,

but they

>are very domesticated, and I think any coyote could decimate the flock easily.

Still,

>they reach good size in 6 weeks or so, have nice soft feathers, and don't need

>water much.

>

>

Huh, I didn't know they didn't taste ducky. I wonder how they taste.

If we ever get off our intentions and hotwire the back (pathetic excuse

for a) fence, then coyotes could never breach the habitat easily. The

coyotes tend to stay by the creek across the road behind the west

properties anyway, and only come round late winter when food is scarce.

However, if it is dry, they will seek out cats and small dogs for

water. I lost two wild female cats late this spring. So we adopted

another one from the shelter. Anyhoo, I just love Mandarin duck, nummy

nummy. And all I need is a kiddy pool like I used to have for the

dogs? That sells me. Any other concerns with domesticated ducks lie

Pekings?

>Well, I don't gut the animal, or cut it up! Chickens are enough work for me! I

just

>show up when " the killer " comes. For $40 he kills and dresses the animal, and

hauls

>it to the butcher who cuts it up and wraps it in those nice little packages. If

you are

>there when the killer is there, you can just take the liver, heart, lungs,

spleen, fat, hide,

>head, and whatever else you want.

>

>

I am preparing me little head to get around the deer idea. DH can gut,

I can chop it up. Team work, right? The meat I get from the ranch is

all processed and frozen. I get the fresh pastured turkeys for

Thanksgiving, as I have mentioned.

>One guy I know lost a dog, and was wandering through cattle country. He is

>a hunter, and all those beef looked juicy to him too. He said as much to the

>farmer, as he was asking about the dog. Farmer said " You want one? " .

>Many farmers are quite happy to sell you a steer out on the grass ... the steer

get

>pricier after the feed lot phase (which of course is when you DON'T want them).

>I was amazed at how cheap steer are at auction (other animals too).

>

>

That is so cool. And I can't tell you how many meat cow farms are

around these here parts. This ain't dairyland, however, goat dairies

are big in TX. I need to make friends with some of these farmers if

their methods are acceptable. But sheesh, this ain't Minnesota where

cows have to be inside sometimes. All I ever see are small farms with

cows grazing year round. It never gets below 10 degrees here, and the

grass is probably the deadest right about now, but thankfully we have

had rain as of late, so autumn meat should be tasty.

>

>

>OK, you got me! Next trip to town we'll get a compound bow and some hunting

arrows

>(and more target arrows). Must be a sign from Athena/Minerva, you being Deanna

and all ... :-)

>

Well, that is just splendid! Maybe I should be in sales, lol! If your

dd decides on the compound bow, let me recommend Bows if she

needs to work up to hunting poundage. You see, the " Buck Shot " and

" Challenger " bows - the kid and ladies' bow respectively - are able to

be refit bigger for a fee later on. You just send it back and they up

it 10 lbs, by changing out the limbs, I think. They are very well-made

bows at a great price too. I own the Hoyt Sierratec, which is the

Caddilac smooth bow, cuz I need all the help I can get. ;-) DS had to

get his Buckshot bow ordered special, as he shoots a bow left-handed,

but shoots a gun and writes right-handed. Strange.

http://www.hoytusa.com/

http://www.parkerbows.com/

Yes, the goddesses are calling you. The huntress within beckons as well!

Deanna