Re: Re: Goat Cheese, Was Smoking & Health

[Guest guest]

,

The symptoms you describe (various and sundry inflammation/irritation)

are all from excess " heat " , which is aggravated in some by fermented

foods. That would also explain why the cheese gave Ron trouble while

the kefir did not. Well, they are both sour, but the hard cheese is

more so, and more concentrated.

Well this is a bit confusing for me, because I thought I understood from

some previous posts about my needing ginger, and my having not great

circulation or metabolism, that I was more in a " cold " category. Doesn't

everyone detox through heat (fever, inflammation, etc.)?

<My fantasy experiment would be for you to try eating a well-fermented

food--other than cheese--after this clears up and see what results.

BTW did your teeth get sensitive as well?

No, my teeth are fine. I haven't been too interested in fermented foods

because a) I'm awfully lazy about food preparation and I'm of a mind that

probiotics are of a very temporary nature, in terms of curing problems, and

the only way to build strong colonies of the right kind of gut microbes is

by eating the right kind of foods. But really, I'm mostly lazy. <g>

http://www.taichi4seniors.com

[Guest guest]

,

<Eek,

I am reluctant to drag it out, but briefly: fermented foods are sour

and heating. It sounds like you may be prone to inflammation--is that

so? If it is, those foods would trigger it in various forms. I don't

know at all that everyone detoxes through fever and inflammation.

I never considered myself prone to inflammation, but I have no basis of

comparison or understanding to know. Re: detoxing through heat -- all I

meant is that it's commonplace for most folks to run a fever when they're

sick -- among other things, to kill microbes by heat and to open the pores

for sweating. Also any physical injury to muscles is apt to result in

inflammation, basically a way of getting more blood to the site. I *think*

I'm not prone beyond those kinds of things, but maybe I would be with

fermented foods, and maybe that's another, unconcious, reason I avoid them.

Except for cheese -- which I really love. <g>

<My new fantasy experiment is for you to journal your food intake and

note when you get inflammation and see how it matches up.

It probably wouldn't be necessary for me to journal since my menu is so

simple and repetitive for such long periods of time (basically until I get

bored with it). The fruits were a real exception and lasted no more than a

few days. The cheese I began maybe a month ago at most.

http://www.taichi4seniors.com

[Guest guest]

>No, my teeth are fine. I haven't been too interested in fermented foods

>because a) I'm awfully lazy about food preparation and I'm of a mind that

>probiotics are of a very temporary nature, in terms of curing problems, and

>the only way to build strong colonies of the right kind of gut microbes is

>by eating the right kind of foods. But really, I'm mostly lazy. <g>

>

>

The research on probiotics is showing quite different results though.

Good fermented foods have amazing effects on the immune system,

for reasons that aren't quite understood by the researchers. It's

NOT just a simple matter of recolonizing the gut ... the fermentation

process itself produces a bunch of antifungals, antibiotics, blood sugar

stabilizers, vitamins, and stuff they are still identifying. Kids on good

yogurt find their eczema gets better, rats fed *killed* bacteria still

have better immune function, eating kimchi helps prevent viral infections

and even helps chickens recover from bird flu.

Humans have been eating fermented foods forever, and we are the FIRST

generation to eat nothing but sterile food, which is likely a huge cause

of problems. Our guts expect to ingest a lot of bacteria, mostly " good "

ones. The bacteria may or may not live long, but they are part of the

usual human digestion, and even dead bacteria trigger certain reactions

in the system.

Anyway, I'm lazy too, so I can relate! My kefir cider takes all of 3 minutes

to make (drop a kefir grain in some apple juice, in a sun tea jar or any

ol' jar with the lid on loose ... put in the fridge after it gets fizzy). Milk

kefir helps a lot of people too, even some who can't tolerate regular milk.

Kimchi is a little more work, but it gets quick too with practice.

I do agree however, that getting the WHOLE diet in gear is a big

part of the problem ... for my my " allergic " foods (gluten, casein)

throw off my digestion big time, and then the probiotics and

clay and Pepto Bismol are a useful stopgap but I don't depend

on them to keep me well. I expect too many improperly-digesting

starches/sugars and fructose are a problem for other folks

and I try to avoid huge amounts of those too.

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Heidi,

<the fermentation

process itself produces a bunch of antifungals, antibiotics, blood sugar

stabilizers, vitamins, and stuff they are still identifying. Kids on good

yogurt find their eczema gets better, rats fed *killed* bacteria still

have better immune function, eating kimchi helps prevent viral infections

and even helps chickens recover from bird flu.

I can accept all this, but then the question in my mind remains: Are these

advantages not all present to me in the enormously nutrient-rich foods and

juices and clay I eat on a daily basis?

<Humans have been eating fermented foods forever, and we are the FIRST

generation to eat nothing but sterile food, which is likely a huge cause

of problems. Our guts expect to ingest a lot of bacteria, mostly " good "

ones. The bacteria may or may not live long, but they are part of the

usual human digestion, and even dead bacteria trigger certain reactions

in the system.

Again my reaction is that I accept what you're saying, but, supposing by

" sterile " you mean heated, I don't consider that the raw meats I eat, or the

vegetables I juice without cleaning the organic soil off them, or the

soil/clay I eat, are in any way lacking in bacteria I might need.

I eat no grains of any kind, and a few days ago again gave up the fruit I

tried for a few days that seemed to be troubling me so. I have no milk

products apart from the goat cheese -- the one fermented food I have and the

one that seems to be the cause of some current reactions -- which could be

due to the fermentation or kind of fermentation! (Although maybe it's due to

something else, something as simple as too much fat for my system to handle

now -- I'll have to experiment with this last idea.)

So, what I'm saying here is that I don't in any way disparage fermentation

(except where tons of salt are used), but I question the need for the extra

work in preparation when I'm on what seems to me -- in terms of results --

to be a truly superior diet, something not all cultures have been able to

attain without using fermentation.

http://www.taichi4seniors.com

[Guest guest]

>[] I can accept all this, but then the question in my mind remains: Are

these

>advantages not all present to me in the enormously nutrient-rich foods and

>juices and clay I eat on a daily basis?

No, they aren't the same. Fermented foods are *different* in a lot

of ways, which are just now being studied. For instance, yogurt with

killed bacteria still stimulates the immune system in ways milk does not,

and yogurt with live bacteria is even better. I've read dozens of studies

and they are totally amazing. But the real kicker is the people I've *known*

who just get suddenly better when they add a certain probiotic to their

diet. For me it's kefir beer ... kimchi is good, but doesn't have such an

obvious effect.

The fermentation process does a number of things:

1. Transforms components. Kraut, for instance, is far higher in

anti-cancer compounds than cabbage is, and people in kraut eating

countries get less breast cancer than their compatriots who stop

eating kraut.

2. Negates bad components. Cabbage has anti-thyroid compounds

and stuff that makes gas, but kraut doesn't. Sourdough is less

of a gluten problem than white bread.

3. Makes nutrients more bioavailable. The calcium in kimchi is basically

all dissolved and ready for absorption.

4. Regulates blood sugar. This is a biggie. Sourdough bread is less

of a blood sugar jolt than regular bread, and kimchi with

a meal makes the white rice less problematic.

5. Provides you with antifungals/antibacterials etc. that are just

not IN regular food. Bacteria are in constant biological warfare

with other bacteria, fungi, and viruses. Many of our current

antibacterial chemicals were first isolated from fermented foods.

6. The bacteria produce anti-cancer compounds too, such as

kefiran which kills tumors.

7. Bacteria produce digestive enzymes which help you to

digest your OTHER food. They also prompt your stomach

to secrete more enzymes.

>Again my reaction is that I accept what you're saying, but, supposing by

> " sterile " you mean heated, I don't consider that the raw meats I eat, or the

>vegetables I juice without cleaning the organic soil off them, or the

>soil/clay I eat, are in any way lacking in bacteria I might need.

I'm sure you get plenty of bacteria from the soil, but meat is generally

pretty sterile (unless the animal was sick or the meat wasn't handled properly).

Raw vegies are great, but you get more nutrients from them if they

are fermented (there were some interesting studies done with cancer

and kraut).

Personally I avoid soil though, because there is a high

risk of parasites in soil, esp. if you don't know where the produce

was grown (hookworm, tapeworm: a lot of those are spread by

birds, snails, and other animals that can be in the field where the

produce is growing). Our ancestors did eat a good deal of dirt, but

they mostly also had intestinal parasites (based on fecal studies at

ancient trash heaps).

A lot of carnivores bury their meat and let it ferment before

they eat it, which is also interesting. The Inuit did that a lot also:

fermented whale and seal were big.

Personally I don't think that " live bacteria " are the BIGGEST component

in fermented foods, though they can be useful. There are hundreds

of compounds in fermented foods you can't get anywhere else, even

in cooked fermented foods. But eating foods raw is certainly good

too.

Which reminds me: I was in a Korean seafood place. They had a menu

which served, among other things, " live crab " . And they meant it: a live,

raw, crab. Live shrimp too. Served with kimchi and rice, no doubt! (There

was also a sign over the tanks: " live food may carry parasites " , which

I guess isn't a big concern to them).

>I eat no grains of any kind, and a few days ago again gave up the fruit I

>tried for a few days that seemed to be troubling me so. I have no milk

>products apart from the goat cheese -- the one fermented food I have and the

>one that seems to be the cause of some current reactions -- which could be

>due to the fermentation or kind of fermentation! (Although maybe it's due to

>something else, something as simple as too much fat for my system to handle

>now -- I'll have to experiment with this last idea.)

You seem to have digestive issues, and everyone is different,

so I'm not the one to say what YOU should eat. I can say

what is currently thought from a research standpoint. Some

people really don't get along with fermented foods though,

esp. people with multiple chemical sensitivities.

I don't get along with cheese myself though, or any dairy it seems.

I can track the reaction now that I know what to look for. I don't

get along well with kombucha either, so I gave that up. But if

I don't keep up with my kefir beer, I just don't do as well.

>So, what I'm saying here is that I don't in any way disparage fermentation

>(except where tons of salt are used), but I question the need for the extra

>work in preparation when I'm on what seems to me -- in terms of results --

>to be a truly superior diet, something not all cultures have been able to

>attain without using fermentation.

If it works for you, then go for it ... I've certainly gone through MANY

phases in my own search for " what works for Heidi " and I'm not

done yet!

>

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Heidi,

Thanks for taking the time to write so extensively on the fermentation

question. When I was about half way through, I was once again growing open

to the idea of perhaps trying one of the ferments I see mentioned on this

list. (I say " once again " because I have considered it off and on over the

years.)

Then I read this " Some people really don't get along with fermented foods

though,esp. people with multiple chemical sensitivities. " and I thought . .

.. " hmm, better not fool around. " I've had chemical sensitivities since the

early eighties, when I got CFS. I'm much better now, (e.g. able to go into

a bookstore or a fabric store for a short time), but I'm not home free yet.

So, again, I will probably play it safe and just stay with the diet that is

working for me now.

I will, however, consider your warning about parasites (I assume you mean

the eggs) in my organic dirt. AV has somewhat, but not completely,

reassured me on the question of parasites. At least, they no longer concern

me with raw foods, esp. given my sources for meat. But for some reason the

possibility of parasites in the dirt trouble me more. LOL. I just read

what I wrote and it really doesn't make sense. I will reread AV and mull

over this some more.

http://www.taichi4seniors.com

[Guest guest]

> Then I read this " Some people really don't get along with fermented foods

> though,esp. people with multiple chemical sensitivities. " and I thought . .

> . " hmm, better not fool around. "

,

I've tried various fermented foods and always got burning in my

stomach, slowed digestion and water retention from the salt. Salt

reduction doesn't help. Yogurt and some hard organic raw milk cheeses

I could tolerate if I had one serving a day before I went CF. Raw milk

I thought was giving me congestion, mucus, round BM's. Found it was

cheese and yogurt too. Had half cup cream on top yogurt with fresh

picked blueberries two nights in a row last week and woke up all

mucousy third morning.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

:

>Then I read this " Some people really don't get along with fermented foods

>though,esp. people with multiple chemical sensitivities. " and I thought . .

>. " hmm, better not fool around. " I've had chemical sensitivities since the

>early eighties, when I got CFS. I'm much better now, (e.g. able to go into

>a bookstore or a fabric store for a short time), but I'm not home free yet.

>So, again, I will probably play it safe and just stay with the diet that is

>working for me now.

It's always good to change *slowly* anyway. Then if something works,

or doesn't, it's easier to know WHAT worked.

>I will, however, consider your warning about parasites (I assume you mean

>the eggs) in my organic dirt. AV has somewhat, but not completely,

>reassured me on the question of parasites. At least, they no longer concern

>me with raw foods, esp. given my sources for meat. But for some reason the

>possibility of parasites in the dirt trouble me more. LOL. I just read

>what I wrote and it really doesn't make sense. I will reread AV and mull

>over this some more.

You might want to read about them from a non-biased source. I've read

a lot about them historically and from a " farm " perspective ... they outnumber

non-parasitic species and they are pretty obiquitious. Most don't cause

major problems, and in fact our *lack* of parasites might be an issue, according

to some scientists. OTOH hookworm was so debilitating in the South, and

in Africa today, that they found the best way to help kids succeed in school

was to give them worm medicine once a month.

Raw meat isn't the major vector for parasites: usually it is walking barefoot,

getting bit by an insect, eating the insect, or ingesting contaminated soil or

water.

AFAIK there are only a few parasites you can get from meat (notably

trichinosis and a couple that are common in fish) but raw meat is

what gets all the press! You really, really can't tell if soil or water is

contaminated: the mountain streams around here often have giardia, and

the hikers get sick from that lovely pristine water. There might be a reason

that in many cultures they drink beer or tea rather than water!

>

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Wanita,

Thanks for sharing your personal experience. It was helpful to actually

hear " the other side " of the fermentation issue. I may go off the goat

cheese eventually (certainly cow's milk products of any kind, raw or

fermented, never worked for me), but I'll probably spend a few more days

experimenting with it. Tonight I had it alone, without the egg yolks that

would have added to the quantity of fat at that meal -- and depending on how

I'm feeling later on, I may go further tomorrow and try cutting back on the

fat load in my other meals. Part of this experimentation is from curiosity,

and part is just hoping to keep in my diet something I like so much. Also,

I'm encouraged by the fact that, in spite of some strange symptoms (which

are not hard to cope with), I have none of the mucus or congestion that I

have had in the past with other dairy products. We'll see. And I'll post

on the final outcome.

http://www.taichi4seniors.com

[Guest guest]

Well, I needed only two more days to confirm beyond a doubt that the goat's

milk cheese is problematic for me, and not because of its fat content, and

it has to go. <sigh>

There's still no way for me to know what the problem is here. It could be a

general dairy intolerance, but it seems now it might be the fermentation

process. Since Heidi mentioned a link between chemical sensitivities (in my

case connected to CFS) and fermentation, it's occured to me that

fermentation alone may be the reason I can't tolerate even the smallest

amounts of wine or apple cider vinegar. Now, I'm even beginning to look

askance at my fermented CO. I may go off that as well and try the plain CO

that WFN sells as raw.

The odd thing is, as time goes by, I get closer and closer -- apart from my

juiced veggies -- to the menu of my cat! Eventually, I'll have to invite

him to my table and simply share the food.

http://www.taichi4seniors.com

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

> Well, I needed only two more days to confirm beyond a doubt

> that the goat's

> milk cheese is problematic for me, and not because of its fat

> content, and

> it has to go. <sigh>

Well bad news on this front, too. All of this discussion about dairy has

got me looking at things more closely. Lo and behold -- last night while I

was laying in bed after having consumed about 16 ounces of delicious goat

milk kefir I realized that I could feel my heart beating in my chest and my

pulse rate was up. Ack. It never ends, it seems. I'll have to experiment

with this and see if I'm reacting mildly to the one last dairy item I let

myself have.

>

> There's still no way for me to know what the problem is here.

> It could be a

> general dairy intolerance, but it seems now it might be the

> fermentation

> process. Since Heidi mentioned a link between chemical

> sensitivities (in my

> case connected to CFS) and fermentation, it's occured to me that

> fermentation alone may be the reason I can't tolerate even

> the smallest

> amounts of wine or apple cider vinegar. Now, I'm even

> beginning to look

> askance at my fermented CO. I may go off that as well and

> try the plain CO

> that WFN sells as raw.

I have seen people report problems with fermented foods pretty regularly

here on this list and others so I thought I would share my experience of the

past few months. Prior to my first surgery in March I was drinking lots of

fermented beverages and eating some homemade sauerkraut just about every

day. I felt great. Post surgery I slipped into starch carb hell and my

diet pretty well fell apart. For the next three months I ate a lot (for me)

of wheat flour and other starchy carbs and completely stopped eating any

fermented food at all.

When I began to get myself back on track and mostly cut the starch from my

diet I also began drinking and eating my ferments again. I felt awful! I

had a distinct reaction to each food and it was all unpleasant. Bloating,

stomach upset, brain fog. I didn't like it all. However, because I knew

that I felt great consuming those foods in the past I just eased off on the

quantities and toughed out the symptoms. It took a couple of months but I

seem to have killed off all of the bad stuff in my gut and now thrive on my

fermented foods again.

So whenever I hear people describe having reaction to fermented food I

wonder if they aren't having the same problem that I was -- having to shift

their gut ecology over time to be able to consume these healthy foods.

>

> The odd thing is, as time goes by, I get closer and closer --

> apart from my

> juiced veggies -- to the menu of my cat! Eventually, I'll

> have to invite

> him to my table and simply share the food.

LOL. I can so relate!

Ron

[Guest guest]

Ron,

<So whenever I hear people describe having reaction to fermented food I

wonder if they aren't having the same problem that I was -- having to shift

their gut ecology over time to be able to consume these healthy foods.

I do think this is possible, just as I think it possible that AV is right

when he applies that theory to foods such as raw cow's milk. The question

for me is how long would that transition take, and at what cost in suffering

for me? Given the risk, however slight, that the time might be long, the

suffering considerable, and the outcome, for me, maybe not a good one, it

just doesn't seem worth it.

I believe I can transition to a healthy gut ecology by eating foods I know

to be nutrient-dense, foods that cause, at the most, minor detox symptoms

every couple of months or so. These foods likely come close to, if not

match in some instances, much of what can be found in fermented foods. They

also enable me to avoid elements found in fermentated foods (e.g. excessive

salt) that are questionable for me.

I'm a senior now, and I've been fighting -- and winning -- against some

serious diseases. I need to sleep well and I need to feel good physically

and mentally during the day because that kind of rest and happiness helps me

keep fighting and winning.

It's not that mine is the right way. Just the right way for me. <g>

http://www.taichi4seniors.com

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Sorry for the break in communication. I've been traveling a lot and have

been fitting posts in between as I have the time. I'm here for the today

and tomorrow, at least.

I'm responding to this in the order it was posted without having yet read

anything that may have been discussed later.

> <So whenever I hear people describe having reaction to

> fermented food I

> wonder if they aren't having the same problem that I was --

> having to shift

> their gut ecology over time to be able to consume these healthy foods.

>

> I do think this is possible, just as I think it possible that

> AV is right

> when he applies that theory to foods such as raw cow's milk.

> The question

> for me is how long would that transition take, and at what

> cost in suffering

> for me? Given the risk, however slight, that the time might

> be long, the

> suffering considerable, and the outcome, for me, maybe not a

> good one, it

> just doesn't seem worth it.

Can I ask you a question? How long have you been working on cleaning up

your system? IIRC, it's been a while. 5 years? Maybe I'm mis-remembering.

>

> I believe I can transition to a healthy gut ecology by eating

> foods I know

> to be nutrient-dense, foods that cause, at the most, minor

> detox symptoms

> every couple of months or so. These foods likely come close

> to, if not

> match in some instances, much of what can be found in

> fermented foods. They

> also enable me to avoid elements found in fermentated foods

> (e.g. excessive

> salt) that are questionable for me.

I really appreciate this viewpoint as I have read both of AV's books but I'm

beginning to wonder how effective a technique it is. It has become clear to

me that I made some choices that were most likely _too_ detoxifying too fast

for a very toxic body, but OTOH I have seen some people who have been at

this for a long time and don't show good result. There seems to be a nice

gradient for detoxification that involves doing gentle or even strong but

not harsh detox regimens and then allow the body to recover through rest and

proper nutrition. That is the path that I'm currently on.

If after all of the time that you have been juicing and gently eating the

proper foods your gut still has not restored itself by re-populating with

the kind of good flora that you would get from probiotic foods then I would

begin to suspect that you may need to get a little more aggressive.

I hope that you aren't offended. I'm certainly no expert but I am

definitely getting enough experience to begin to think that I may have some

understanding of how it all works.

>

> I'm a senior now, and I've been fighting -- and winning --

> against some

> serious diseases. I need to sleep well and I need to feel

> good physically

> and mentally during the day because that kind of rest and

> happiness helps me

> keep fighting and winning.

>

> It's not that mine is the right way. Just the right way for me.

I appreciate what you are saying. You certainly know best and you are

having success. Perhaps it's not a good idea to mess with the program.

Ron

[Guest guest]

Ron,

<Can I ask you a question? How long have you been working on cleaning up

your system? IIRC, it's been a while. 5 years? Maybe I'm mis-remembering.

I've been trying to recover my health for eons, it seems, but rarely in the

sense of " cleaning up my system. " That is, much of what I tried for many

years was not detox-oriented, but involved adding " magic bullets " (herbs,

supplements, homeopathics.) or trying different menus (blood type,

vegetarian, etc.) and these at best produced only short term effects, or

were pretty much without effect. In some cases, they were counterproductive

(esp. to my pocketbook!). About three years ago the " cleaning " began with

Gerson's juicing and coffee enemas, about 2 years ago went on to the SCD

elimination of all grains, then to a raw diet (sparked mostly by the news

out of Sweden) and, finally, about a year ago to AV and raw meat.

< It has become clear to

me that I made some choices that were most likely _too_ detoxifying too fast

for a very toxic body, but OTOH I have seen some people who have been at

this for a long time and don't show good result. There seems to be a nice

gradient for detoxification that involves doing gentle or even strong but

not harsh detox regimens and then allow the body to recover through rest and

proper nutrition. That is the path that I'm currently on.

I, too, began -- on the Gerson juicing -- with detoxes that were way too

strong for me as I was extremely underweight. Two of the episodes actually

lasted about 2-3 months and it wasn't until I had been suffering through

these things for a while that I began the coffee enemas. Those gave me

great relief and it was at that point that I started to see major reversals

in my symptoms. (Eyes turning from a dull hazel to deep blue-green, age

spots disappearing, tooth enamel coming in, hair coming in thick and some of

it brown instead of white, lab tests shooting up into normal ranges -- in

all, more than 30 major signs of healing.) Most important, though, is that

I believe I've licked what may have been the beginning of colon cancer, the

disease that killed my brother and sister. (I say " may have been " because it

was the AMAS test I took, and a positive result on that doesn't indicate

where the cancer is beginning.)

I still detox on my raw meat/veggie juice food plan, even without fruit or

cheese (both of which I'm entirely off now) -- but these are generally short

term episodes (a day or so) with symptoms that don't stop any of my daily

activities or enjoyment of life. And, as I wrote, that is the approach that

seems best for me now.

<I appreciate what you are saying. You certainly know best and you are

having success. Perhaps it's not a good idea to mess with the program.

Well, of course I'm like most people and now and then get the urge to mess

with it. <g> Witness the fruit and cheese. But it doesn't take me more than

a few days to accept I can't do certain things -- at least not yet. And if

it turns out I can't do them ever, that's okay, too. I figure I'm already

way ahead of the game, and am way grateful for it!

http://www.taichi4seniors.com

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Have you also done the liver flushes or just the coffee enemas. I have

consistently found that any amount of detoxing seems too much for me.

Irene

At 12:42 PM 8/10/2005, you wrote:

>Ron,

>

><Can I ask you a question? How long have you been working on cleaning up

>your system? IIRC, it's been a while. 5 years? Maybe I'm mis-remembering.

>

>I've been trying to recover my health for eons, it seems, but rarely in the

>sense of " cleaning up my system. " That is, much of what I tried for many

>years was not detox-oriented, but involved adding " magic bullets " (herbs,

>supplements, homeopathics.) or trying different menus (blood type,

>vegetarian, etc.) and these at best produced only short term effects, or

>were pretty much without effect. In some cases, they were counterproductive

>(esp. to my pocketbook!). About three years ago the " cleaning " began with

>Gerson's juicing and coffee enemas, about 2 years ago went on to the SCD

>elimination of all grains, then to a raw diet (sparked mostly by the news

>out of Sweden) and, finally, about a year ago to AV and raw meat.

>

>< It has become clear to

>me that I made some choices that were most likely _too_ detoxifying too fast

>for a very toxic body, but OTOH I have seen some people who have been at

>this for a long time and don't show good result. There seems to be a nice

>gradient for detoxification that involves doing gentle or even strong but

>not harsh detox regimens and then allow the body to recover through rest and

>proper nutrition. That is the path that I'm currently on.

>

>I, too, began -- on the Gerson juicing -- with detoxes that were way too

>strong for me as I was extremely underweight. Two of the episodes actually

>lasted about 2-3 months and it wasn't until I had been suffering through

>these things for a while that I began the coffee enemas. Those gave me

>great relief and it was at that point that I started to see major reversals

>in my symptoms. (Eyes turning from a dull hazel to deep blue-green, age

>spots disappearing, tooth enamel coming in, hair coming in thick and some of

>it brown instead of white, lab tests shooting up into normal ranges -- in

>all, more than 30 major signs of healing.) Most important, though, is that

>I believe I've licked what may have been the beginning of colon cancer, the

>disease that killed my brother and sister. (I say " may have been " because it

>was the AMAS test I took, and a positive result on that doesn't indicate

>where the cancer is beginning.)

>

>I still detox on my raw meat/veggie juice food plan, even without fruit or

>cheese (both of which I'm entirely off now) -- but these are generally short

>term episodes (a day or so) with symptoms that don't stop any of my daily

>activities or enjoyment of life. And, as I wrote, that is the approach that

>seems best for me now.

>

><I appreciate what you are saying. You certainly know best and you are

>having success. Perhaps it's not a good idea to mess with the program.

>

>Well, of course I'm like most people and now and then get the urge to mess

>with it. <g> Witness the fruit and cheese. But it doesn't take me more than

>a few days to accept I can't do certain things -- at least not yet. And if

>it turns out I can't do them ever, that's okay, too. I figure I'm already

>way ahead of the game, and am way grateful for it!

>

>

><http://www.taichi4seniors.com>http://www.taichi4seniors.com

>

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[Guest guest]

Irene,

<Have you also done the liver flushes or just the coffee enemas. I have

consistently found that any amount of detoxing seems too much for me.>

I've never done a liver flush, so can't comment on those. The coffee enemas

detoxify (they increase the production of glutathione -- the most powerful

of the antioxidants --by 650-700%) but since they are also a means of

eliminating toxins that are being expelled throughout the body, they

generally provide relief, rather than additonal stress, to the body.

Gerson's terminal cancer patients took coffee enemas every four hours during

the day, and also at night to relieve pain.

http://www.taichi4seniors.com

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Thank you for telling me your story. I know that I have seen you talk about

pieces of it in the past but I never understood the whole thing as you

describe below. I'm sure that the last thing you need is a young relatively

inexperienced know-it-all to tell you how to eat for your health.

It sounds like you have truly saved your own life through constant work and

learning and eating properly. That's a pretty amazing thing. I'm struck by

how few people are really willing to look at what they are doing and

recognize that things aren't going right despite their particular belief

system and then actually risk and implement change. Sounds like you've done

that many times and are now feeling well.

I'm interested in the coffee enemas. That sounds like it was very successful

for you. Are you willing to share you protocol? Was it important that you

were eating a certain way at the time you did the enemas? I've done two of

them in the past but did not notice any significant difference.

Ron

> <Can I ask you a question? How long have you been working on

> cleaning up

> your system? IIRC, it's been a while. 5 years? Maybe I'm

> mis-remembering.

>

> I've been trying to recover my health for eons, it seems, but

> rarely in the

> sense of " cleaning up my system. " That is, much of what I

> tried for many

> years was not detox-oriented, but involved adding " magic

> bullets " (herbs,

> supplements, homeopathics.) or trying different menus (blood type,

> vegetarian, etc.) and these at best produced only short term

> effects, or

> were pretty much without effect. In some cases, they were

> counterproductive

> (esp. to my pocketbook!). About three years ago the

> " cleaning " began with

[snip]

[Guest guest]

Ron,

<I'm interested in the coffee enemas. That sounds like it was very

successful

for you. Are you willing to share you protocol? Was it important that you

were eating a certain way at the time you did the enemas? I've done two of

them in the past but did not notice any significant difference.>

At the time I started the enemas, the only significant thing about my diet

was the amount of juicing I did -- 2 quarts a day instead of the 1 quart I

do now. (I never adopted the Gerson diet.) The juicing was what created the

initial severe detoxes that drove me to the enemas I should have begun right

at the start.

I'm still doing the enemas -- once a day usually, but twice a day if I hit a

detox. AV thinks they are not a good idea, but this was one of those things

about which I felt I had to make a decision based on personal experience.

I suppose the idea of this prolonged therapy might sound bizarre, but as

long as I continue to see and feel dramatic results, I'll be going on with

it. There is no risk of dependency (I don't need the enemas to eliminate)

and from everything I've read, no drawback to ongoing use. In fact, I find

it gives me the extra benefit of a mental/emotional time of peace each day

(there's a 12-15 minute " hold " time for the coffee solutions to pass the

liver every three minutes) so is something I actually look forward to. My

version of a Japanese tea ceremony. <g>

The procedure is not complicated, but there is a lot to consider and to

understand about doing it correctly and with ease -- much more than I could

type up here. I think it's helpful, too, to understand exactly what the

benefits are (I mentioned the glutathione, but there's a great benefit in

the stimulation of bile and some other things as well). Also, understanding

the science (which funny enough, Gerson didn't really back in the

thirties)is helpful in giving you patience with the learning curve. So, for

all those reasons -- and the still further one of this info not being

completely available online (at least I've never found it), I would

recommend you borrow from a library or buy the book written by Gerson's

daughter Charlotte: The Gerson Therapy. The material on coffee enemas is

found in various places through the book, but is easy enough to find with

the index.

Once you have the book to give you the basics, I'd be happy to answer, if I

can, any questions that come up for you.

http://www.taichi4seniors.com

[Guest guest]

> I would

> recommend you borrow from a library or buy the book written

> by Gerson's

> daughter Charlotte: The Gerson Therapy. The material on

> coffee enemas is

> found in various places through the book, but is easy enough

> to find with

> the index.

>

> Once you have the book to give you the basics, I'd be happy

> to answer, if I

> can, any questions that come up for you.

>

Thank you. I've added it to the cart at Amazon. I'll let you know how it

goes should I decide to proceed.

Ron

[Guest guest]

Irene,

It occured to me today that since your question seemed really about to be

stressing the liver, I should have let you know that when I started the

coffee enemas, my bilirubin on the liver panel was 2.5 -- a horrendously

high number considering the normal range given me by the lab was a small one

of 0.1 to 1.0. Within a 2-3 months I was down to 1.0.

http://www.taichi4seniors.com