Re: Vitamin E and Cod Liver Oil

[Guest guest]

Judy-

>Can anyone tell me if you are supposed to take vitamin E when you take

>Cod Liver Oil? I don't see any vitamin E listed on my CLO and Dr.

>Mercola says you need vitamin e along with the CLO.

As it's a fat-soluble antioxidant, it would probably be a good idea,

particularly if you're not taking high-vitamin CLO. The problem is

that most vitamin E supplements out there are either pure alpha

tocopherol or mostly alpha tocopherol with a piddling amount of mixed

other tocopherols. What you really want is the whole family of

tocopherols in proper balance, which means mostly gamma, not alpha,

and ideally you'd also want a properly balanced mixture of tocotrienols.

There are only a few well-balanced E-complex supplements out there

that I know of.

AOR's " Total E " has 65mg of d-alpha-tocopherol, 8mg of d-beta

tocopherol, 210mg of d-gamma tocopherol, and 82mg of d-delta

tocopherol, amounting to 365mg of tocopherols, and 15mg of d-alpha

tocotrienol, 0.6mg of d-beta tocotrienol, 28mg of d-gamma

tocotrienol, and 6.3mg of d-delta tocotrienol, amounting to 50mg of

tocotrienols. It also contains 30mg of CoQ10 and olive oil, rosemary

oil, ascorbyl palmitate and possibly beeswax as fillers and gelatin

and carob for the softgel itself. The alpha tocopherol is partly

from palm and the tocotrienols are entirely from palm, but

unfortunately, the rest of the alpha tocopherol is from soy and the

rest of the tocopherols are entirely from soy. It ain't cheap

either, at $30 or so for a bottle of 60 softgels.

Carotec's " The E " has 200IU (133.33mg) of alpha tocopherol, 6mg of

beta tocopherol, 162mg of gamma tocopherol, and 65mg delta

tocopherol, amounting to 366.33mg of tocopherols. AFAIK they're all

in the d form too, though they're not explicitly listed as such, and

I'm afraid they may be soy-derived, but Carotec's catalog insists

there's no added soy oil, just other " beneficial plant compounds "

such as squalene making up the rest of the distillate. At $33 (the

non-member price) for a bottle of 180, it's a better deal than AOR's,

but the ratios might not be as good.

Carotec has a separate palm tocotrienol supplement which contains

39mg of d-alpha tocotrienol, 71.5mg of d-gamma tocotrienol, 16.25mg

of d-delta tocotrienol, amounting to 126.75mg of tocotrienols, and

58IU of d-alpha tocopherol. I'm not sure why, but the catalog

doesn't list any d-beta tocotrienol. Maybe it's an error; maybe the

supplement just doesn't contain any. Unfortunately, the non-member

price is painfully high, at $65 for a bottle of 60.

A. C. Grace's " Unique E " contains 400IU (266.67mg) of d-alpha

tocopherol, " at least " 300mg d-gamma tocopherol, and 132mg total of

d-delta and d-beta tocopherols. I wish I knew how those latter two

broke down, but it advertises that it's soy free and contains no

other fillers, and at $32 for a bottle of 180 capsules at Vitamin

Shoppe, it's probably the bargain of the bunch even though it might

be high on the d-alpha fraction.

AOR also sells a tocotrienol supplement called " Toco-3-Nol Max "

(don't ask me why) which contains 38mg of d-Alpha-Tocotrienol, 1mg of

d-Beta-Tocotrienol, 70mg of d-Gamma-Tocotrienol, and 16mg of

d-Delta-Tocotrienol, amounting to 125mg of tocotrienols. Its fillers

and softgel contents are pretty much the same as the other AOR

supplement I listed. The tocotrienols are palm-derived and the

supplement is soy-free, and at about $18 for a bottle of 60, this

looks like the new tocotrienol deal of the century, beating the

living hell out of Carotec's almost identical $65 version.

In fact, based on that, I'd say that of the E complex supplements I

know, my new recommendation would be to buy Unique E from Vitamin

Shoppe or whomever has the best price and AOR's tocotrienol complex

in order to get the whole tocopherol and tocotrienol E complex family.

If anyone knows of any other balanced E complex supplements, please

chime in, because I'd like to keep my recommendations as useful and

up to date as possible!

-

[Guest guest]

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of Idol

>If anyone knows of any other balanced E complex supplements, please

>chime in, because I'd like to keep my recommendations as useful and

>up to date as possible!

Palm oil.

Jungle products. Mmmmm....

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

Suze-

> >If anyone knows of any other balanced E complex supplements, please

> >chime in, because I'd like to keep my recommendations as useful and

> >up to date as possible!

>

>Palm oil.

>

>Jungle products. Mmmmm....

That stuff was stunningly delicious, but do you have any idea what

its vitamin E content is? I can't find any details on their

site. Tropical Traditions has a chart

<http://www.tropicaltraditions.com/red_palm_oil.htm> which indicates

that (their?) palm oil has about 1150ppm mixed tocopherols and

tocotrienols split roughly 55/45, so at a guess, 1g of palm oil

contains something roughly like 0.64mg of mixed tocopherols and

0.52mg of mixed tocotrienols, each in who knows what proportions. I

have no idea whether that accurately reflects Jungle's product, which

seemed so extraordinarily different from TT's, but assuming it does,

well, suffice it to say that it's not a very dense source at all.

Of course we could debate how much E complex we actually need, but

given that the brain is the densest concentration of unsaturated fats

in the body, I'd rather err on the side of caution when it comes to

fat-soluble antioxidants.

-

[Guest guest]

,

My Carlson's cod liver oil is showing 10 IU of d

Alpha Tocopherol per teaspoon of Vitamin E, is that

enough to prevent ranciditiy in my body?

Or should I also buy some Unique E? Mercola says the

Carlsons has the E in it, which is true, but is it

enough? THanks, Juli

--- Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> Judy-

>

> >Can anyone tell me if you are supposed to take

> vitamin E when you take

> >Cod Liver Oil? I don't see any vitamin E listed on

> my CLO and Dr.

> >Mercola says you need vitamin e along with the CLO.

>

> As it's a fat-soluble antioxidant, it would probably

> be a good idea,

> particularly if you're not taking high-vitamin CLO.

> The problem is

> that most vitamin E supplements out there are either

> pure alpha

> tocopherol or mostly alpha tocopherol with a

> piddling amount of mixed

> other tocopherols. What you really want is the

> whole family of

> tocopherols in proper balance, which means mostly

> gamma, not alpha,

> and ideally you'd also want a properly balanced

> mixture of tocotrienols.

>

> There are only a few well-balanced E-complex

> supplements out there

> that I know of.

>

> AOR's " Total E " has 65mg of d-alpha-tocopherol, 8mg

> of d-beta

> tocopherol, 210mg of d-gamma tocopherol, and 82mg of

> d-delta

> tocopherol, amounting to 365mg of tocopherols, and

> 15mg of d-alpha

> tocotrienol, 0.6mg of d-beta tocotrienol, 28mg of

> d-gamma

> tocotrienol, and 6.3mg of d-delta tocotrienol,

> amounting to 50mg of

> tocotrienols. It also contains 30mg of CoQ10 and

> olive oil, rosemary

> oil, ascorbyl palmitate and possibly beeswax as

> fillers and gelatin

> and carob for the softgel itself. The alpha

> tocopherol is partly

> from palm and the tocotrienols are entirely from

> palm, but

> unfortunately, the rest of the alpha tocopherol is

> from soy and the

> rest of the tocopherols are entirely from soy. It

> ain't cheap

> either, at $30 or so for a bottle of 60 softgels.

>

> Carotec's " The E " has 200IU (133.33mg) of alpha

> tocopherol, 6mg of

> beta tocopherol, 162mg of gamma tocopherol, and 65mg

> delta

> tocopherol, amounting to 366.33mg of tocopherols.

> AFAIK they're all

> in the d form too, though they're not explicitly

> listed as such, and

> I'm afraid they may be soy-derived, but Carotec's

> catalog insists

> there's no added soy oil, just other " beneficial

> plant compounds "

> such as squalene making up the rest of the

> distillate. At $33 (the

> non-member price) for a bottle of 180, it's a better

> deal than AOR's,

> but the ratios might not be as good.

>

> Carotec has a separate palm tocotrienol supplement

> which contains

> 39mg of d-alpha tocotrienol, 71.5mg of d-gamma

> tocotrienol, 16.25mg

> of d-delta tocotrienol, amounting to 126.75mg of

> tocotrienols, and

> 58IU of d-alpha tocopherol. I'm not sure why, but

> the catalog

> doesn't list any d-beta tocotrienol. Maybe it's an

> error; maybe the

> supplement just doesn't contain any. Unfortunately,

> the non-member

> price is painfully high, at $65 for a bottle of 60.

>

> A. C. Grace's " Unique E " contains 400IU (266.67mg)

> of d-alpha

> tocopherol, " at least " 300mg d-gamma tocopherol, and

> 132mg total of

> d-delta and d-beta tocopherols. I wish I knew how

> those latter two

> broke down, but it advertises that it's soy free and

> contains no

> other fillers, and at $32 for a bottle of 180

> capsules at Vitamin

> Shoppe, it's probably the bargain of the bunch even

> though it might

> be high on the d-alpha fraction.

>

> AOR also sells a tocotrienol supplement called

> " Toco-3-Nol Max "

> (don't ask me why) which contains 38mg of

> d-Alpha-Tocotrienol, 1mg of

> d-Beta-Tocotrienol, 70mg of d-Gamma-Tocotrienol, and

> 16mg of

> d-Delta-Tocotrienol, amounting to 125mg of

> tocotrienols. Its fillers

> and softgel contents are pretty much the same as the

> other AOR

> supplement I listed. The tocotrienols are

> palm-derived and the

> supplement is soy-free, and at about $18 for a

> bottle of 60, this

> looks like the new tocotrienol deal of the century,

> beating the

> living hell out of Carotec's almost identical $65

> version.

>

> In fact, based on that, I'd say that of the E

> complex supplements I

> know, my new recommendation would be to buy Unique E

> from Vitamin

> Shoppe or whomever has the best price and AOR's

> tocotrienol complex

> in order to get the whole tocopherol and tocotrienol

> E complex family.

>

> If anyone knows of any other balanced E complex

> supplements, please

> chime in, because I'd like to keep my

> recommendations as useful and

> up to date as possible!

>

>

>

> -

>

>

__________________________________

- PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005

http://mail.

[Guest guest]

On 11/17/05, Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> Suze-

>

> > >If anyone knows of any other balanced E complex supplements, please

> > >chime in, because I'd like to keep my recommendations as useful and

> > >up to date as possible!

> >

> >Palm oil.

> >

> >Jungle products. Mmmmm....

>

> That stuff was stunningly delicious, but do you have any idea what

> its vitamin E content is?

,

I think posted a breakdown of the vitamin E content of palm oil

awhile back in a thread with Suze. You might onibasu it.

--

" It is no crime to be ignorant of economics,

which is, after all, a specialized discipline

and one that most people consider to be a

'dismal science.' But it is totally irresponsible

to have a loud and vociferous opinion on

economic subjects while remaining in this

state of ignorance. "

-- Murray Rothbard

[Guest guest]

Not to diminish 's important information on vitamin E supplements,

but CLO is unique in its ability to supply PUFAs and be

ANTI-oxidative. So yes, you need sufficient E to provide protection

for the PUFAs, but vitamin A is the big thing you need to support your

glutathione peroxidase activity. In the presence of sufficient E, all

PUFAs raise lipid peroxides, while CLO alone, as far as I've seen can

*decrease* oxidative stress. They key factor there is the vitamin A.

The vitamin E in the CLO is *not* meant to protect the PUFAs in your

body! It's just meant to protect them in the jar. You need the E in

the rest of your diet, but you certainly do not need extra E for the

PUFAs in CLO any more than you need extra E for the PUFAs in butter,

lard, and God forbid any vegetable oils.

You need the whole network -- vitamins A, E, C, coenzyme Q10,

selenium, etc. They do not work by themselves. The Vitamin E, for

example, is worthless without the CoQ10, and the whole system

basically fails without the selenium-dependent glutathione peroxidase

(which is vitamin A-dependent as well). If there is anything to

single out it is certainly vitamin A and not vitamin E from what I've

seen, but what is imporant is a diet rich in the whole antioxidant

network.

Chris

--

Dioxins in Animal Foods:

A Case For Vegetarianism?

Find Out the Truth:

http://www.westonaprice.org/envtoxins/dioxins.html

[Guest guest]

Speaking of Vitamin E supplementation, doesn't pumkin seed oil

containt the whole E shabangabang?

-- In , Masterjohn

<chrismasterjohn@g...> wrote:

>

> Not to diminish 's important information on vitamin E

supplements,

> but CLO is unique in its ability to supply PUFAs and be

> ANTI-oxidative. So yes, you need sufficient E to provide

protection

> for the PUFAs, but vitamin A is the big thing you need to support

your

> glutathione peroxidase activity. In the presence of sufficient E,

all

> PUFAs raise lipid peroxides, while CLO alone, as far as I've seen

can

> *decrease* oxidative stress. They key factor there is the vitamin

A.

>

> The vitamin E in the CLO is *not* meant to protect the PUFAs in

your

> body! It's just meant to protect them in the jar. You need the E

in

> the rest of your diet, but you certainly do not need extra E for

the

> PUFAs in CLO any more than you need extra E for the PUFAs in

butter,

> lard, and God forbid any vegetable oils.

>

> You need the whole network -- vitamins A, E, C, coenzyme Q10,

> selenium, etc. They do not work by themselves. The Vitamin E, for

> example, is worthless without the CoQ10, and the whole system

> basically fails without the selenium-dependent glutathione

peroxidase

> (which is vitamin A-dependent as well). If there is anything to

> single out it is certainly vitamin A and not vitamin E from what

I've

> seen, but what is imporant is a diet rich in the whole antioxidant

> network.

>

> Chris

>

> --

> Dioxins in Animal Foods:

> A Case For Vegetarianism?

> Find Out the Truth:

> http://www.westonaprice.org/envtoxins/dioxins.html

>

[Guest guest]

-

How about cold-pressed wheat germ oil? Isn't that an excellent

source of natural Vit. E? In Eat Fat Lose Fat SF recommends the Now

Nutrition brand.

Theresa

-- In , Idol <Idol@c...>

wrote:

>

> Judy-

>

> >Can anyone tell me if you are supposed to take vitamin E when you

take

> >Cod Liver Oil? I don't see any vitamin E listed on my CLO and Dr.

> >Mercola says you need vitamin e along with the CLO.

>

> As it's a fat-soluble antioxidant, it would probably be a good

idea,

> particularly if you're not taking high-vitamin CLO. The problem

is

> that most vitamin E supplements out there are either pure alpha

> tocopherol or mostly alpha tocopherol with a piddling amount of

mixed

> other tocopherols. What you really want is the whole family of

> tocopherols in proper balance, which means mostly gamma, not

alpha,

> and ideally you'd also want a properly balanced mixture of

tocotrienols.

>

> There are only a few well-balanced E-complex supplements out there

> that I know of.

>

> AOR's " Total E " has 65mg of d-alpha-tocopherol, 8mg of d-beta

> tocopherol, 210mg of d-gamma tocopherol, and 82mg of d-delta

> tocopherol, amounting to 365mg of tocopherols, and 15mg of d-alpha

> tocotrienol, 0.6mg of d-beta tocotrienol, 28mg of d-gamma

> tocotrienol, and 6.3mg of d-delta tocotrienol, amounting to 50mg

of

> tocotrienols. It also contains 30mg of CoQ10 and olive oil,

rosemary

> oil, ascorbyl palmitate and possibly beeswax as fillers and

gelatin

> and carob for the softgel itself. The alpha tocopherol is partly

> from palm and the tocotrienols are entirely from palm, but

> unfortunately, the rest of the alpha tocopherol is from soy and

the

> rest of the tocopherols are entirely from soy. It ain't cheap

> either, at $30 or so for a bottle of 60 softgels.

>

> Carotec's " The E " has 200IU (133.33mg) of alpha tocopherol, 6mg of

> beta tocopherol, 162mg of gamma tocopherol, and 65mg delta

> tocopherol, amounting to 366.33mg of tocopherols. AFAIK they're

all

> in the d form too, though they're not explicitly listed as such,

and

> I'm afraid they may be soy-derived, but Carotec's catalog insists

> there's no added soy oil, just other " beneficial plant compounds "

> such as squalene making up the rest of the distillate. At $33

(the

> non-member price) for a bottle of 180, it's a better deal than

AOR's,

> but the ratios might not be as good.

>

> Carotec has a separate palm tocotrienol supplement which contains

> 39mg of d-alpha tocotrienol, 71.5mg of d-gamma tocotrienol,

16.25mg

> of d-delta tocotrienol, amounting to 126.75mg of tocotrienols, and

> 58IU of d-alpha tocopherol. I'm not sure why, but the catalog

> doesn't list any d-beta tocotrienol. Maybe it's an error; maybe

the

> supplement just doesn't contain any. Unfortunately, the non-

member

> price is painfully high, at $65 for a bottle of 60.

>

> A. C. Grace's " Unique E " contains 400IU (266.67mg) of d-alpha

> tocopherol, " at least " 300mg d-gamma tocopherol, and 132mg total

of

> d-delta and d-beta tocopherols. I wish I knew how those latter

two

> broke down, but it advertises that it's soy free and contains no

> other fillers, and at $32 for a bottle of 180 capsules at Vitamin

> Shoppe, it's probably the bargain of the bunch even though it

might

> be high on the d-alpha fraction.

>

> AOR also sells a tocotrienol supplement called " Toco-3-Nol Max "

> (don't ask me why) which contains 38mg of d-Alpha-Tocotrienol, 1mg

of

> d-Beta-Tocotrienol, 70mg of d-Gamma-Tocotrienol, and 16mg of

> d-Delta-Tocotrienol, amounting to 125mg of tocotrienols. Its

fillers

> and softgel contents are pretty much the same as the other AOR

> supplement I listed. The tocotrienols are palm-derived and the

> supplement is soy-free, and at about $18 for a bottle of 60, this

> looks like the new tocotrienol deal of the century, beating the

> living hell out of Carotec's almost identical $65 version.

>

> In fact, based on that, I'd say that of the E complex supplements

I

> know, my new recommendation would be to buy Unique E from Vitamin

> Shoppe or whomever has the best price and AOR's tocotrienol

complex

> in order to get the whole tocopherol and tocotrienol E complex

family.

>

> If anyone knows of any other balanced E complex supplements,

please

> chime in, because I'd like to keep my recommendations as useful

and

> up to date as possible!

>

>

>

> -

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you very much ! This helps alot.

Judy

--- In , Idol <Idol@c...>

wrote:

>

> In fact, based on that, I'd say that of the E complex supplements I

> know, my new recommendation would be to buy Unique E from Vitamin

> Shoppe or whomever has the best price and AOR's tocotrienol complex

> in order to get the whole tocopherol and tocotrienol E complex family.

>

[Guest guest]

Juli-

>My Carlson's cod liver oil is showing 10 IU of d

>Alpha Tocopherol per teaspoon of Vitamin E, is that

>enough to prevent ranciditiy in my body?

As pointed out, the E is really just there to help keep it from

going bad in the body. Vitamins A and D are much more involved in

keeping the PUFAs in CLO from going rancid in the body. However, I'd

really recommend using a high-vitamin CLO instead of Carlson's, and

supplementary E complex can be very useful also.

>Mercola says the

>Carlsons has the E in it, which is true, but is it

>enough? THanks, Juli

The 10IU of alpha tocopherol in Carlson's is such a trivial amount it

might as well not be there from the perspective of vitamin E

supplementation. Also, as I've mentioned, you want more gamma

tocopherol than alpha tocopherol, though I'm still not clear on the

ideal ratio of gamma to alpha.

-

[Guest guest]

Thanks , I am going to get the Unique E, Juli

--- Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> Juli-

>

> >My Carlson's cod liver oil is showing 10 IU of d

> >Alpha Tocopherol per teaspoon of Vitamin E, is that

> >enough to prevent ranciditiy in my body?

>

> As pointed out, the E is really just there to

> help keep it from

> going bad in the body. Vitamins A and D are much

> more involved in

> keeping the PUFAs in CLO from going rancid in the

> body. However, I'd

> really recommend using a high-vitamin CLO instead of

> Carlson's, and

> supplementary E complex can be very useful also.

>

> >Mercola says the

> >Carlsons has the E in it, which is true, but is it

> >enough? THanks, Juli

>

> The 10IU of alpha tocopherol in Carlson's is such a

> trivial amount it

> might as well not be there from the perspective of

> vitamin E

> supplementation. Also, as I've mentioned, you want

> more gamma

> tocopherol than alpha tocopherol, though I'm still

> not clear on the

> ideal ratio of gamma to alpha.

>

>

>

>

> -

>

>

__________________________________

FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.

http://farechase.

[Guest guest]

Chris-

>Not to diminish 's important information on vitamin E supplements,

>but CLO is unique in its ability to supply PUFAs and be

>ANTI-oxidative.

That's not equally true of low-vitamin and high-vitamin CLO, though,

is it? Or is there a threshold and even low-vitamin (standard?) CLO

is past it?

>In the presence of sufficient E, all

>PUFAs raise lipid peroxides, while CLO alone, as far as I've seen can

>*decrease* oxidative stress. They key factor there is the vitamin A.

Don't you mean in the absence of sufficient E? Deficiency certainly

promotes increased peroxidation even though the literature is

somewhat contradictory on the value of supplementation (I'm guessing

because tests are almost exclusively run on synthetic alpha, probably

mostly dl-alpha rather than d-alpha).

Not that I wasn't unclear, though. I guess I implied that E complex

should be taken with CLO particularly, when I really just got off on

a whole vitamin E tangent.

-

[Guest guest]

Theresa-

>How about cold-pressed wheat germ oil? Isn't that an excellent

>source of natural Vit. E? In Eat Fat Lose Fat SF recommends the Now

>Nutrition brand.

Sorry for the redundant post, but no, I'd never recommend wheat germ

oil. Too much harmful PUFA. Maybe E _isolated_ from wheat germ oil,

but not the oil itself.

-

[Guest guest]

-

>Speaking of Vitamin E supplementation, doesn't pumkin seed oil

>containt the whole E shabangabang?

Not sure off the top of my head, but the problem with high-PUFA oils

as a source of vitamin E is that you're adding lots of PUFA to your

diet in order to get some vitamin E, and the antioxidant activity of

the E is already accounted for by the PUFA.

-

[Guest guest]

On 11/18/05, Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> Chris-

>

> >Not to diminish 's important information on vitamin E supplements,

> >but CLO is unique in its ability to supply PUFAs and be

> >ANTI-oxidative.

>

> That's not equally true of low-vitamin and high-vitamin CLO, though,

> is it? Or is there a threshold and even low-vitamin (standard?) CLO

> is past it?

Since I assume there aren't any studies using high-vitamin, I would

say there is a threhold and low-vitamin is past it. It appears to be

due to the vitamin A, so the more vitamin A, the greater the

protection against oxidation.

> >In the presence of sufficient E, all

> >PUFAs raise lipid peroxides, while CLO alone, as far as I've seen can

> >*decrease* oxidative stress. They key factor there is the vitamin A.

>

> Don't you mean in the absence of sufficient E?

No, I mean presence. Vitamin E supplementation does not stop the

positive relationship between dietary PUFA and lipid peroxidation

within the body.

> Deficiency certainly

> promotes increased peroxidation even though the literature is

> somewhat contradictory on the value of supplementation (I'm guessing

> because tests are almost exclusively run on synthetic alpha, probably

> mostly dl-alpha rather than d-alpha).

In the *absence* of vitamin E, even CLO will increase lipid

peroxidation. But in the *presence* of adequate dietary E, only CLO

to my knowledge does not increase, and can even decrease, lipid

peroxidation, whereas all the others still increase lipid

peroxidation.

> Not that I wasn't unclear, though. I guess I implied that E complex

> should be taken with CLO particularly, when I really just got off on

> a whole vitamin E tangent.

Ok, but not CLO any more than other PUFA oils, or animal fats that

have substantial PUFA. If you take a tablespoon, you're getting,

what? A few grams of PUFA? For most people they probably get quite a

bit more, I'd think, PUFA from other fats, and most people don't take

a tbsp of CLO. So maybe the E complex is *always* recommended, but I

don't see the CLO as making a huge difference.

Chris

--

Dioxins in Animal Foods:

A Case For Vegetarianism?

Find Out the Truth:

http://www.westonaprice.org/envtoxins/dioxins.html

[Guest guest]

>

> >Speaking of Vitamin E supplementation, doesn't pumkin seed oil

> >containt the whole E shabangabang?

>

> Not sure off the top of my head, but the problem with high-PUFA oils

> as a source of vitamin E is that you're adding lots of PUFA to your

> diet in order to get some vitamin E, and the antioxidant activity of

> the E is already accounted for by the PUFA.

>

I don't understand what you mean by the last part of the last

sentence. Can you explain further?

[Guest guest]

On 11/18/05, crayfishfeed <crayfishfeed@...> wrote:

>

> >

> > >Speaking of Vitamin E supplementation, doesn't pumkin seed oil

> > >containt the whole E shabangabang?

> >

> > Not sure off the top of my head, but the problem with high-PUFA oils

> > as a source of vitamin E is that you're adding lots of PUFA to your

> > diet in order to get some vitamin E, and the antioxidant activity of

> > the E is already accounted for by the PUFA.

> >

> I don't understand what you mean by the last part of the last

> sentence. Can you explain further?

Not , but since I've had said it and I'm here first... vitamin E

is used to protect PUFA from oxidation. The more PUFA you intake, the

more antioxidants you need. So the best source of vitamin E, all

other variables being equal, is one that has a high vitamin E to PUFA

ratio, rather than just being high in total vitamin E.

Think of your PUFA as your costs and your vitamin E as your revenue --

with the same revenue, your profit is dependent on having lower costs.

Or think of it as finding a job further away from home at which you

make more money. Your pay is your vitamin E, but your traveling

expenses are your PUFA. You're only making a higher net pay after you

account for the increased money spent in gas, wear and tear in your

car, public transportation, etc.

Ultimately it is basically this: vitamin E is an antioxidant. PUFAs

are pro-oxidant. Net antioxidant activity = antioxidants minus

pro-oxidants.

Chris

--

Dioxins in Animal Foods:

A Case For Vegetarianism?

Find Out the Truth:

http://www.westonaprice.org/envtoxins/dioxins.html

[Guest guest]

Chris-

> > >In the presence of sufficient E, all

> > >PUFAs raise lipid peroxides, while CLO alone, as far as I've seen can

> > >*decrease* oxidative stress. They key factor there is the vitamin A.

> >

> > Don't you mean in the absence of sufficient E?

>

>No, I mean presence. Vitamin E supplementation does not stop the

>positive relationship between dietary PUFA and lipid peroxidation

>within the body.

It does affect it, though, so I think it would've been more clear to

say " even in the presence of sufficient E " .

I'd very much like to see research on the effect of balanced E

complex on lipid peroxidation, though, as most (all?) research has

been done on alpha tocopherol or on isolated other fractions.

>If you take a tablespoon, you're getting,

>what? A few grams of PUFA? For most people they probably get quite a

>bit more, I'd think, PUFA from other fats, and most people don't take

>a tbsp of CLO.

What other fats are you thinking of? I mean, are we talking SADers or WAPers?

>So maybe the E complex is *always* recommended, but I

>don't see the CLO as making a huge difference.

Perhaps, though I wouldn't expect most CLO consumers to be eating

much in the way of unsaturated vegetable oil, and while animal foods

do contain PUFA, it's not usually that much...

-

[Guest guest]

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of Idol

>

>

>Suze-

>

>> >If anyone knows of any other balanced E complex supplements, please

>> >chime in, because I'd like to keep my recommendations as useful and

>> >up to date as possible!

>>

>>Palm oil.

>>

>>Jungle products. Mmmmm....

>

>That stuff was stunningly delicious, but do you have any idea what

>its vitamin E content is? I can't find any details on their

>site.

No, I don't unfortunately. But I bet it's higher than the *farmed* palm oil

products.

Tropical Traditions has a chart

><http://www.tropicaltraditions.com/red_palm_oil.htm> which indicates

>that (their?) palm oil has about 1150ppm mixed tocopherols and

>tocotrienols split roughly 55/45, so at a guess, 1g of palm oil

>contains something roughly like 0.64mg of mixed tocopherols and

>0.52mg of mixed tocotrienols, each in who knows what proportions. I

>have no idea whether that accurately reflects Jungle's product, which

>seemed so extraordinarily different from TT's, but assuming it does,

>well, suffice it to say that it's not a very dense source at all.

Wow is that all? I just did an experiment. If my scale is correct then there

are about 5 grams of PO in a TBsp. that's 5.8 mgs mixed tocopherols and

tocotrienols i 1 TBsp. of PO. That's seems like so little, are you sure your

calculations are correct?

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

On 11/20/05, Suze Fisher <s.fisher22@...> wrote:

> Tropical Traditions has a chart

> ><http://www.tropicaltraditions.com/red_palm_oil.htm> which indicates

> >that (their?) palm oil has about 1150ppm mixed tocopherols and

> >tocotrienols split roughly 55/45, so at a guess, 1g of palm oil

> >contains something roughly like 0.64mg of mixed tocopherols and

> >0.52mg of mixed tocotrienols, each in who knows what proportions. I

> >have no idea whether that accurately reflects Jungle's product, which

> >seemed so extraordinarily different from TT's, but assuming it does,

> >well, suffice it to say that it's not a very dense source at all.

>

> Wow is that all? I just did an experiment. If my scale is correct then there

> are about 5 grams of PO in a TBsp. that's 5.8 mgs mixed tocopherols and

> tocotrienols i 1 TBsp. of PO. That's seems like so little, are you sure your

> calculations are correct?

People who use parts-per notation should be tarred and feathered and

exiled to antarctica.

According to this Wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentration

....the parts-per notation refers to PARTICLES and thus is similar to

molarity, and ***NOT*** MASS. So those calculations can't be made

unless you've calculated the molar mass of vitamin E and the molar

mass of each of the fatty acids, and if you want to be precise the

carotenes and other components although those could be safely ignored.

On the other hand, they also show some table that equates ppm to mg/kg!!!

Again, people who even use it all should be exiled for this monstrous

confusion. No wonder the SI has ruled it incompatiable with the SI

system! (standard international units, mg, g, kg, etc...)

Enig reports palm oil in real units, though I don't have the book

on me. It's in the archives though...

Chris

--

Dioxins in Animal Foods:

A Case For Vegetarianism?

Find Out the Truth:

http://www.westonaprice.org/envtoxins/dioxins.html

[Guest guest]

On 11/20/05, Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> Chris-

>

> > > >In the presence of sufficient E, all

> > > >PUFAs raise lipid peroxides, while CLO alone, as far as I've seen can

> > > >*decrease* oxidative stress. They key factor there is the vitamin A.

> > >

> > > Don't you mean in the absence of sufficient E?

> >

> >No, I mean presence. Vitamin E supplementation does not stop the

> >positive relationship between dietary PUFA and lipid peroxidation

> >within the body.

>

> It does affect it, though, so I think it would've been more clear to

> say " even in the presence of sufficient E " .

You're right; that would be been more clear.

> I'd very much like to see research on the effect of balanced E

> complex on lipid peroxidation, though, as most (all?) research has

> been done on alpha tocopherol or on isolated other fractions.

Good point, but since different antioxidants play different roles in

the cell, I doubt any one antioxidant can be effective without the

others. For example without CoQ10 vitamin E just becomes a dangerous

free radical itself.

> What other fats are you thinking of? I mean, are we talking >SADers or

WAPers?

Well lard, for example, is about 10% PUFA, and organ meat fat is

pretty high in PUFA I think, and something like brain is really high

in PUFA. I think butter has a reasonable amount but I don't have

_KYF_ on me right now. Egg yolks are something like 1/3 PUFA, IIRC.

All really low compared to vegetable oils, but if you eat a lot of

organ meats, egg yolks, certain animal fats, and your CLO consumption

is on the moderate end, you're probably gettng a bit more from the

other fats than from the CLO. CLO, after all, is only something like

1/3 PUFA, which I think is similar to egg yolks, isn't it?

> >So maybe the E complex is *always* recommended, but I

> >don't see the CLO as making a huge difference.

>

> Perhaps, though I wouldn't expect most CLO consumers to be eating

> much in the way of unsaturated vegetable oil, and while animal foods

> do contain PUFA, it's not usually that much...

Not that much compared to vegetable oil, but by no means

insignificant, and animal fats are consumed in much higher total

quantities than CLO is. Besides, a lot of WAPers eat nuts and some

grains, etc, even though some may not. Those add extra PUFA too. I'd

say that eating most nuts would be much more likely to give a more

substantial contribution to PUFA intake than CLO-- which most people

don't take in quantities of 2 Tbsp like I am right now, but more like

1 or 2 tsp.

Chris

--

Dioxins in Animal Foods:

A Case For Vegetarianism?

Find Out the Truth:

http://www.westonaprice.org/envtoxins/dioxins.html

[Guest guest]

Ok, according to these figures I cited from Enig:

http://onibasu.com/archives/nn/29409.html?highlight=palm%20oil%20%20chris

.... it works out to 1.172 mg/kg so I guess the ppm was probably

equivalent to ppm on the TT site.

I still think it's ridiculous to use such ambiguous notation.

Chris

--

Dioxins in Animal Foods:

A Case For Vegetarianism?

Find Out the Truth:

http://www.westonaprice.org/envtoxins/dioxins.html