Re: SCD's fruit juice gelatin

[Guest guest]

>I was just looking at the pictures of Ori Hofmekler in the new Dragon Door

>Vitalics catalog and was struck by how scrawny he is. And yet half of his

>books are a molecular level discussion about building maximum muscle. It

>just doesn't compute. If you want to go look at the people who are building

>maximum muscle you will find that almost to a man (or woman) they eat

>continuously throughout the day.

>

>

Huh, interesting. Of course, pour moi, it is stamina and strength that

I am most concerned with. And I'm afraid I will never be scrawny.

Having devoted myself to fitness for well over half of my life, it is

difficult to even comprehend somehow losing my mesomorph physique,

complete with killer calves and quads. Ya know, running makes my legs

more nummy than strength training ever did - hams especially.

>So, that being said, I still like the Warrior Diet a lot and find that it

>will at least preserve muscle mass if you eat sufficiently during your feast

>meal. I'm actually building some muscle at the moment but I suspect that is

>because I'm below my muscular set-point after two years of surgeries and

>various recoveries and the associated exercise downtime. I don't expect to

>turn into Arnold eating the Warrior Diet way, but that's just fine with me.

>Health, comfort and convenience are the current watchwords.

>

I find warrioress diet is pretty much all about under eating, at least

for me now. I can't handle much food after controlled fasting all day.

I feel great and have energy to do what I do exercise wise. Besides,

fat loss is a bigger issue than muscle retention. At 5'3 " , I am best in

130s for weight with electrical differential body fat at around 19%. I

have dense bones and well-developed muscles, what can I say to a denser

weight? It makes it all possible and I would rather be strong than

anything else. So it is good now to go with fat loss as legs get

muscular from running. It is a good plan for that. Obviously though, I

am not feasting properly so not following properly, and probably won't

until my stomach, numbers and dress size are telling me I am in need of

a deserved feast. For now, I can't overeat comfortably. So I'll enjoy

the energy deficit as it is easy and nutrient rich.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

>

>

> And I'm afraid I will never be scrawny.

>Having devoted myself to fitness for well over half of my life, it is

>difficult to even comprehend somehow losing my mesomorph physique,

>complete with killer calves and quads. Ya know, running makes my legs

>more nummy than strength training ever did - hams especially.

>

>

>

> At 5'3 " , I am best in

>130s for weight with electrical differential body fat at around 19%. I

>have dense bones and well-developed muscles, what can I say to a denser

>weight? It makes it all possible and I would rather be strong than

>anything else. So it is good now to go with fat loss as legs get

>muscular from running. It is a good plan for that. Obviously though, I

>am not feasting properly so not following properly, and probably won't

>until my stomach, numbers and dress size are telling me I am in need of

>a deserved feast. For now, I can't overeat comfortably. So I'll enjoy

>the energy deficit as it is easy and nutrient rich.

>

>

>Deanna

>

>

>

We sound exactly alike! Same height and super muscular (although I have

finally gotten down into the 120's lately after giving up gluten and

dairy - and most sugar - for the first time in 13 years). I used to go

to a women's gym where they did low reps with high weight and when I

asked if that would build bulk (knowing it would) they told me not to

worry because only a small percentage of women can build bulk. Well,

lucky us, then! Ha.

I did ballet growing up, so I have very muscular legs as well. I get it

from my dad, but somehow he looks a whole lot better with all his chunky

muscle. LOL. I always feel like I have to work a little harder to look

feminine - at least with clothing (like, I can't wear plaid shirts, or

any oxford style for that matter). My friend from college did get rid

of her bulk somehow, but then I'm not sure if she was super muscular

before because she'd been an athlete or if it was just natural to her

like with us. I keep meaning to ask her how she did it, but I'm afraid

she may have done it with jogging and I just have never been able to jog

in my entire life. Oh, and a Abdul did it somehow, too - of course

she has millions to pay a personal trainer.

Well, if you ever figure out how to cut down on some of this muscle

mass, please let me know! :-)

Steph

[Guest guest]

>Well, if you ever figure out how to cut down on some of this muscle

>mass, please let me know! :-)

>

>Steph

Personally I think a lot of it is genetic, and also it may have very

little to do with *strength*. The body builders are probably correct

in that it takes lots of little meals with high protein to build sheer

mass ... the same is true of meat chickens, which are these

huge bundles of muscles. Poor things can barely walk though.

I put them on the Warrior Diet so they would grow more slowly

and have LESS muscle mass, so they wouldn't fall over and end

up crippled. Angus cows are similar ... bred for far more muscle

than you'd find in wild cattle, and they don't move particularly

fast.

You look at your average monkey though, and they are SKINNY

but amazingly strong. I think Ori is in that category, and he mentions

somewhere in his book that the Romans weren't into " muscle mass "

per say .. they were into strength and agility.

If you have muscle though without working at it, that's a great

thing (I presume it's good looking muscle ... I've never seen

a woman, even a woman body builder, who was really too

bulky!).

Heidi

[Guest guest]

> [paul] First, she does not regard most bacterial activity as bad. This should

be

> obvious because one of the foundations of the SCD is FERMENTED FOOD for >the

purpose of PROBIOTIC IMPLANTATION! Do you seriously not get that?

It was my understanding that the only probiotic microorganisms that

" implant " and

significantly reproduce in any animal are those that were originally

isolated from the same gut and then cultured in a lab.

But I've also read that attachment isn't necessary to evoke the

probiotic response temporarily; You just need to continually take a

LOT of probiotic bacteria (and a lot of species.) I've found this to

be the case for myself the last few weeks.

~Robin Ann

[Guest guest]

Steph,

>We sound exactly alike! Same height and super muscular (although I have

>finally gotten down into the 120's lately after giving up gluten and

>dairy - and most sugar - for the first time in 13 years). I used to go

>to a women's gym where they did low reps with high weight and when I

>asked if that would build bulk (knowing it would) they told me not to

>worry because only a small percentage of women can build bulk. Well,

>lucky us, then! Ha.

>

>

Yes, I can go no lower than mid 120s or I lose strength. I certainly

want a nice amount of fat on me too. It's really bad news for a woman

to get any lower than about 15% body fat for prolonged periods. That

said, a lighter weight helps the distance runner in me.

>I did ballet growing up, so I have very muscular legs as well. I get it

>from my dad, but somehow he looks a whole lot better with all his chunky

>muscle. LOL. I always feel like I have to work a little harder to look

>feminine - at least with clothing (like, I can't wear plaid shirts, or

>any oxford style for that matter). My friend from college did get rid

>of her bulk somehow, but then I'm not sure if she was super muscular

>before because she'd been an athlete or if it was just natural to her

>like with us. I keep meaning to ask her how she did it, but I'm afraid

>she may have done it with jogging and I just have never been able to jog

>in my entire life. Oh, and a Abdul did it somehow, too - of course

>she has millions to pay a personal trainer.

>

>

Huh, I am pretty curvy and feminine looking, just with muscles.

Running/jogging can be catabolic, so if you want to lose muscle, it is a

way to debulk. It works for me. But I do like strength, stamina and

flexibility. It is way more important to me than how I look. That

said, I do look best when I achieve a good fitness balance, and the

warrior diet helps me to achieve a leanness and balance.

>Well, if you ever figure out how to cut down on some of this muscle

>mass, please let me know! :-)

>

Run Steph, run! :-D

Deanna

[Guest guest]

Hi Wanita,

> Is this the same one that told you no nuts?

No, that was actually the Holistic MD that Ken Morehead referred me to for

testing.

Got more info from her on the nut thing on Monday. Turns out that she's

trying to reduce my argenine/lysine ratio. Something about it being

important in fighting off viral infections. Apparently she was pretty sure

I had Epstein-Barr before she even did the test, which was why she made that

recommendation during my first visit to her.

> Looks like this healer has

> some grain or opioid induced brain fogging going on messing up her

> connection.

LOL. Just an innocent ignorance, I think. She's read all of the " right "

books.

>You know, most healers haven't healed themself before

> nailing up their plank or believe what they found for themself will

> work for everyone else.

Yes. I was most impressed by the way that she handled my limited response

to her. She didn't fight or try to make me wrong. She just stated her

belief and then let it go. I was expecting to see it come up in the session

because her intention was on it but it never did. She truly did let it lie

and allow her intuition to guide her.

> Good for you, for questioning and for going

> GF. Told you it would be a great improvement.

Ah. Thanks. You were right, for sure.

Interesting development on the Metabolic Typing front since going GF. Now

that I have that particular poison out of my system I'm much better able to

sense what my body feels in relation to the other foods that I've been

eating. One of the things that I've done over the past months is start

eating lots of non-protein type veggies again. Broccoli, squash, etc. I

came to realize that the vegetables that are not on the Protein Type list do

not satisfy me. I'm still very hungry after eating them. Cabbage and

asparagus OTOH do fill me up.

Ron

[Guest guest]

Hi Deanna,

> Ya know, running

> makes my legs

> more nummy than strength training ever did - hams especially.

That is wild! Never heard of that in my life. Running definitely shrinks

my upper leg muscles although I seem to have large calves that are immune to

either shrinkage or growth. Everyone else I've ever seen run aggressively

loses leg and glute mass, too. In fact, I despise runner's butt on women.

Bleah!

So you are truly unique as far as I'm aware.

> I find warrioress diet is pretty much all about under eating,

> at least

> for me now.

>I can't handle much food after controlled

> fasting all day.

This is actually a problem that I'm having too although I don't think that

it's as bad as what I'm hearing you describe. I do have to struggle to get

enough food in and it tends to make me uncomfortable. Fortunately I'm doing

okay and still losing fat while preserving my weight at about 182 pounds. I

most definitely get into muscle burning mode periodically, though. I've

dieted while working out enough to know exactly what that feels like. I

seem to be able to stop it by forcing myself to pig out any night that it

happens.

As an aside -- I have discovered that I do seem to have an upper limit to

how much fat I can consume at one meal. I'm not measuring so I don't know

the quantities but I really have to be careful about the absolute amount of

fat I eat during my feast meal. A little too much and I go nauseous. I'd

guess I do well at 60% fat or less and get uncomfortable above that.

> I feel great and have energy to do what I do exercise wise.

This is great! I'm still struggling with the afternoon non-hypoglycemic

weakness and brain fog. Can't quite figure it out.

Ron

[Guest guest]

> You look at your average monkey though, and they are SKINNY

> but amazingly strong. I think Ori is in that category, and he mentions

> somewhere in his book that the Romans weren't into " muscle mass "

> per say .. they were into strength and agility.

Yes. But therein lies the problem -- both his books stress some imaginary

science that he describes will maximize muscle mass gain. _Maximum Muscle,

Minimum Fat_. I seem to recall huge battles over this in the Nutrition

forum at Dragon Door but I never really read there very much so I could be

mistaken.

Ron

[Guest guest]

Hi Ron,

> No, that was actually the Holistic MD that Ken Morehead referred me to for

> testing.

>

> Got more info from her on the nut thing on Monday. Turns out that she's

> trying to reduce my argenine/lysine ratio. Something about it being

> important in fighting off viral infections. Apparently she was pretty sure

> I had Epstein-Barr before she even did the test, which was why she made that

> recommendation during my first visit to her.

That's interesting and even more understandable since last night. Only

tv show I watch is House on Fox http://www.fox.com/house/. Episode 17

last night came down to Epstein-Barr. If you're not familiar with the

show, House is the head of a team of diagnostic physicians. IMO,

gluten intolerance can make you feel like you have CFIDS. Epstein-Barr

usually involved. Grain mycotoxins can do a job nevermind the fungi in

the episode. Man in episode had got EB from an anti epileptic drug as

a child and his immune system was so gone that he had toxoplasmosis in

his brain which is found only with AIDS, or so they thought.

> LOL. Just an innocent ignorance, I think. She's read all of the " right "

> books.

Good she didn't press it. Maybe if her psychic readings get

individualized enough she'll be able to read some nutritional

individuality in there. You may have planted something too.

>

> > Good for you, for questioning and for going

> > GF. Told you it would be a great improvement.

>

> Ah. Thanks. You were right, for sure.

>

> Interesting development on the Metabolic Typing front since going GF. Now

> that I have that particular poison out of my system I'm much better able to

> sense what my body feels in relation to the other foods that I've been

> eating. One of the things that I've done over the past months is start

> eating lots of non-protein type veggies again. Broccoli, squash, etc. I

> came to realize that the vegetables that are not on the Protein Type list do

> not satisfy me. I'm still very hungry after eating them. Cabbage and

> asparagus OTOH do fill me up.

You mean summer squash? For me, unless its loaded with butter, it

feels like I've eaten air. So glad Trader Joe's came to the area and I

can get frozen organic asparagus year round. Find that to be the most

satisfying protein type vegetable too. Mellows and alkalinizes the

fast, acidic metabolism. Cabbage gives me gas no matter what is done

to it. Do think you can get away with more non protein type veggies

than me. Sweet potato, parsnip and once in a while potato, other than

fried is as far as I go away from the protein type veggies. Heard

today we're having a record hot by dew point summer. Been eating less

than usual and not feeling all that hungry.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

Hi Wanita,

> That's interesting and even more understandable since last night. Only

> tv show I watch is House on Fox http://www.fox.com/house/. Episode 17

> last night came down to Epstein-Barr. If you're not familiar with the

> show, House is the head of a team of diagnostic physicians. IMO,

> gluten intolerance can make you feel like you have CFIDS. Epstein-Barr

> usually involved. Grain mycotoxins can do a job nevermind the fungi in

> the episode. Man in episode had got EB from an anti epileptic drug as

> a child and his immune system was so gone that he had toxoplasmosis in

> his brain which is found only with AIDS, or so they thought.

Interesting. Hopefully I'm not that far gone. But I did think that a

lifetime of gluten digestive destruction is probably what has been

responsible for much of this mess that I've been in. Hopefully things will

get better quickly now. I can already tell that I'm feeling stronger.

> You mean summer squash?

Funny you picked that one as it was that very food that started me on the

path to understanding that it wasn't a sufficient veggie for me. I ate a

huge plate of it and mine was covered with butter. I felt hungrier when I

was done than before I started. Then I began to notice the same phenomena

with other veggies.

Ron

[Guest guest]

>That is wild! Never heard of that in my life. Running definitely shrinks

>my upper leg muscles although I seem to have large calves that are immune to

>either shrinkage or growth. Everyone else I've ever seen run aggressively

>loses leg and glute mass, too. In fact, I despise runner's butt on women.

>Bleah!

>

>

Well, I have enough in the butt department to spare, let me tell you.

Also, I won't be ever running more than 40 miles a week; at least not

much at all. I am not built like a distance runner, but can afford to

shrink a bit here and there. But no, my calves never shrink, and my

Clydesdale thighs and butt can benefit from just that. ;-)

>

>

>This is actually a problem that I'm having too although I don't think that

>it's as bad as what I'm hearing you describe. I do have to struggle to get

>enough food in and it tends to make me uncomfortable. Fortunately I'm doing

>okay and still losing fat while preserving my weight at about 182 pounds. I

>most definitely get into muscle burning mode periodically, though. I've

>dieted while working out enough to know exactly what that feels like. I

>seem to be able to stop it by forcing myself to pig out any night that it

>happens.

>

>

I think I do best eating nothing until 4 pm or a piece of fruit in the

late morning, perhaps a salad or raw veg early afternoon. My eating is

from 4-7 pm. I am a morning exerciser and really have no problems going

without food after runs, even 8 mile ones.

What makes you say you are burning muscle periodically? Is there some

pattern of food and timing associated with it?

>As an aside -- I have discovered that I do seem to have an upper limit to

>how much fat I can consume at one meal. I'm not measuring so I don't know

>the quantities but I really have to be careful about the absolute amount of

>fat I eat during my feast meal. A little too much and I go nauseous. I'd

>guess I do well at 60% fat or less and get uncomfortable above that.

>

>

>

>>I feel great and have energy to do what I do exercise wise.

>>

>>

>

>This is great! I'm still struggling with the afternoon non-hypoglycemic

>weakness and brain fog. Can't quite figure it out.

>

Oow, really? Now, when I was a raw vegan, this is exactly what I

experienced. I would suggest you cut the carbs for a week down to about

40 grams a day, doing the warrior timing for them. Wait, you say

non-hypoglycemic. What does that mean? What's a daily menu like for

you? And exercise schedule? You know I am only doing upper body

strength twice a week, yoga twice or more a week, and running 4 days a

week at 25 miles total presently. I am ketogenic and feeling fab day

and night!

Deanna

[Guest guest]

On 8/4/05, Heidi Schuppenhauer <heidis@...> wrote:

> A lot of this discussion (and the discussion that follows) is what I call the

> " attack your opponent " kind of discussion, which is why I don't talk about

> SCD much (esp. on this list). It's like arguing Creationism or Vegetarianism

or

> Libertarianism or when life begins ...

While I have NO desire to enter into this discussion between you and

(although I always pick up some interesting tidbits whenever you

two go at it) I'm not sure I am following your point above.

While ad hominem (i.e. against the person) arguments are not sound, it

doesn't follow (i.e. non sequitor) that arguing creationism or

vegetarianism or libertarianism or when life begins...is necessarily

part and parcel of " attack your opponent " which you seem to be

suggesting above.

I clearly remember our arguments about libertarianism, for example,

and I only recall one time when any of the participants may even have

remotely got close to anything that looked like an ad hominem

argument, and I think he was just upset with what he considered your

rather loose use of the facts. In actuality, a good portion of our

time was taken up correcting your views about libertarianism and then

explaining what we actually thought and believed. So if anything in

that debate you were engaging in straw man arguments (i.e attacking a

misrepresented position) rather than anyone " attacking the opponent. "

While no doubt *particular* creationists, or *particular* vegetarians,

or *particular* libertarians, or whathaveyou engage in fallacious

arguments, but then so do atheists, pragmatists, practical atheists

(deists) or whatever. In other words, bad argumentation knows no

ideology.

Ironically, you are accusing of attacking you, and yet he is

neither a creationist, libertarian (at least certainly not a

libertarian in the way you understand it), or vegetarian.

> the arguments on both sides are largely

> based on the person's world view.

All arguments are based on worldviews, including *pragmatic*

arguments. The philosophical worldview of pragmatism which you hold

has been largely discredited for many and varied reasons, but it is a

*worldview* with all its *own set of assumptions*, which is not

readily clear for most folks at the popular level, who like to boil it

down to " whatever works " which is so loaded that it is basically

untenable but that is another discussion.

Anyway, worldviews can be discussed, and very fruitfully, without

resorting to attacking your opponent. I think the implication of your

statement suggesting otherwise is inaccurate.But maybe I am misreading

your statements.

> My world view is VERY different from Elaine's,

> and probably from yours, and I know that because I've read a lot of her work

> (and from her adherents). I don't think I could get through her entire book: I

tried

> reading Bob Barefoot's calcium book once because the person stated I should

> not talk about him til I read the book but it was such a mishmash of truth

> and fiction that it made me crazy, though a lot of people swear by him and

> I basically think most people DO need more calcium than they get (esp.

> if they don't absorb it well).

Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying here but I'm not sure

the term worldview is proper in this context. This strikes me as an

intramural debate between people who essentially share the same

worldview but differ on specific points of knowledge. In other words

this is a difference in understanding, not caused by differing

worldviews, but rather different understandings of the particular data

points in question. This may be a result of faulty logic, undue

loyalty to a particular person, misunderstanding of actual positions,

frustration with past interactions, or a host of other things, but

none of that constitutes a difference in worldviews.