Tongue has built-in taste for fatty food

[Guest guest]

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory?id=1271417 & page=1

NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - The tongue may indeed have a taste for

cheesecake, french fries and butter cookies, according to study published

Tuesday.

In experiments with rodents, French scientists identified a receptor on the

tongue that appears to detect dietary fat. This counters the traditional

view that the taste buds pick up only five basic flavors: sweet, sour,

salty, bitter and " umami, " — a flavor associated with the food additive

monosodium glutamate (MSG).

The fact that the tongue harbors receptors for fatty acids could shed new

light on appetite control and obesity, according to the researchers, led by

Philippe Besnard of the University of Bourgogne.

They report their findings in the November issue of the Journal of Clinical

Investigation.

Scientists have speculated that the tongue may have a receptor designed to

detect fat, but this study is the first to pinpoint one, according to

Besnard and his colleagues. The receptor, a protein called CD36, is already

known to exist in many tissues and is involved in fat storage, among other

jobs; it is also goes by the name of fatty acid transporter, or FAT.

<snip>

[Guest guest]

>

> http://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory?id=1271417 & page=1

>

> NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - The tongue may indeed have a taste for

> cheesecake, french fries and butter cookies, according to study

published

> Tuesday.

>

> In experiments with rodents, French scientists identified a receptor

on the

> tongue that appears to detect dietary fat. This counters the traditional

> view that the taste buds pick up only five basic flavors: sweet, sour,

> salty, bitter and " umami, " — a flavor associated with the food additive

> monosodium glutamate (MSG).

They don't want to say we have a taste for MEAT so really all this

time humans have been waiting years and years for MSG to come to the

market.

[Guest guest]

Very interesting that they figure 1/2 medium tasters, 1/4 non tasters

and 1/4 supertasters. That's the same population ratio metabolic

typing researchers find between the mixed, carb and protein types.

Turning on the fat taste bud and fat digesting with omega 3s, cool too.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

On 11/5/05, arielb53 <aribhaviv@...> wrote:

> They don't want to say we have a taste for MEAT so really all this

> time humans have been waiting years and years for MSG to come to the

> market.

What's the link between the umami taste and meat? Do you have a link

to an article on it?

Chris

--

Dioxins in Animal Foods:

A Case For Vegetarianism?

Find Out the Truth:

http://www.westonaprice.org/envtoxins/dioxins.html

[Guest guest]

Full paper is here:

http://www.jci.org/cgi/reprint/115/11/3177.pdf

Journal's commentary article:

http://www.jci.org/cgi/content/full/115/11/2965

The commentary is very interesting (despite statements such as, " Dietary

fat is particularly addictive, and its excessive intake is strongly

linked to obesity. " )

Tom

Masterjohn wrote:

> On 11/5/05, arielb53 <aribhaviv@...> wrote:

>

>

>>They don't want to say we have a taste for MEAT so really all this

>>time humans have been waiting years and years for MSG to come to the

>>market.

>

>

> What's the link between the umami taste and meat? Do you have a link

> to an article on it?

>

> Chris

>

[Guest guest]

> > What's the link between the umami taste and meat? Do you have a link

> > to an article on it?

> >

> > Chris

Don't have a umami/meat link but my daughter mentioned she was taught

in culinary class that umami is taste of mushrooms. Said nothing about

MSG. Scary, if this is why MSG is used.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

I thought that's why MSG is added - for the supposed " umami " taste - at

least since the '50's. When I do searches, hundreds of links pop; here's

one example: http://www.glutamate.org/media/glutamate_and_taste.asp I've

never heard that umami is the taste of mushrooms. Interesting.

-Sharon, NH

Deut 11:14 He will put grass in the fields for your cattle, and you will

have plenty to eat.

Don't have a umami/meat link but my daughter mentioned she was taught

in culinary class that umami is taste of mushrooms. Said nothing about

MSG. Scary, if this is why MSG is used.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

Tom that dietary fat thing is not all bunk. Fat evokes beta-

endorphin, or " mu " in the addiction lit. If a person (like me) has

genetic and lifestyle-induced low beta-endorphin, it is possible to

light up the addiction pathways that way.

This is NOT to say that fat is to be avoided. I enjoy all fats

including saturated - but I also know how to work with food types

and amounts so as to avoid the addictive patterns.

Connie

>

> Full paper is here:

> http://www.jci.org/cgi/reprint/115/11/3177.pdf

>

> Journal's commentary article:

> http://www.jci.org/cgi/content/full/115/11/2965

>

> The commentary is very interesting (despite statements such

as, " Dietary

> fat is particularly addictive, and its excessive intake is

strongly

> linked to obesity. " )

>

> Tom

[Guest guest]

On 11/7/05, cbrown2008 <cbrown2008@...> wrote:

> Tom that dietary fat thing is not all bunk. Fat evokes beta-

> endorphin, or " mu " in the addiction lit. If a person (like me) has

> genetic and lifestyle-induced low beta-endorphin, it is possible to

> light up the addiction pathways that way.

>

> This is NOT to say that fat is to be avoided. I enjoy all fats

> including saturated - but I also know how to work with food types

> and amounts so as to avoid the addictive patterns.

Connie,

Last night on Discovery Channel we watched premier of Ice Age Columbus.

Summarizing, IAG told how a 17,000 yr.old spearhead found in Virginia

and the people who made it got across the Atlantic. Then ice covered

the Atlantic down to the Meditteranean Sea. Without seal fat and seal

products they could not have done it. Clincher is that the Ojibwa of

the Great Lakes have genes going back to southwest France where the

same 17,000 yr. old spearhead design has been found. There was a short

comment about 1/4 of Native American genetics I didn't quite get that

elaborated genetics.

Can't find anything online about it other than this BBC discussion

that gives a migration timeline with a Pennsylvania spearhead.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2002/columbus.shtml

Linguistically thinking, all tribes east of the Mississippi, north

into Canada and south of VA have the Algonquin root except for the

Iroquois. Iroquois migration story is from near the ee River yet

their other stories are very similar to Irish.

Is evoking " mu " really an addiction or is it an unrecognized, quite

natural survival process for those today that genetically survived

from that ice age?

Wanita

[Guest guest]

My TCM says umami is the neutral taste of broth. I can see how that

would also apply to mushrooms.

-Lana

> Don't have a umami/meat link but my daughter mentioned she was taught

> in culinary class that umami is taste of mushrooms. Said nothing about

> MSG. Scary, if this is why MSG is used.

>

> Wanita

[Guest guest]

> Is evoking " mu " really an addiction or is it an unrecognized, quite

> natural survival process for those today that genetically survived

> from that ice age?

>

> Wanita

Well in my own personal mental model, which I've constructed from all

food and mood research and reading, my personal history, and my service

work in an addiction community, I'd have to say it's both. So many of

the genetic groups that have addiction histories also come from climate

extremes where food is not constantly available. The thrifty gene and

all that. Our famous Northern Europe Irish, Scots, Russians, and the

desert-dwelling Pima Indians. The idea being, we are really really

good at using endorphins (and other neurochemicals, like dopamine and

serotonin) to cover the pain of times of no food.

The addiction part comes in just because bodies that are wired like

this, respond in a drug-like way to ingesting fractionated manufactured

fats and sugars in isolation from whole food. Like a beignet for

breakfast on an empty stomach, LOL.

We get a bigger " hit " , which further re-regulates the receptors, then

thanks to the mechanism of increased tolerance, you need a bigger

amount to get the same hit. Just like white powder drugs.

If you look at the criteria for addiction established since the 50s,

and compare the behavior check-off with people's behavior who can't

stop with the junk food, it meets the criteria.

What makes it hard for people who are not born this way, and thus don't

experience the " schwing " of a drug-like hit from food, to understand, I

think also comes from the old " germ versus favorable medium "

controversy between Pasteur and Bechamp. People coming from a germ and

disease mindset think that a substance like fat must work the same in

all people or something, and if it isn't bad for everyone then it isn't

the substance at all and we should look for some other culprit.

But in addiction, it's the substance, plus the " favorable medium " of a

person who is born with a certain chemistry and then raised in the US

on drug-like food (like me) that combines to set up the conditions for

addiction.

Sorry you asked, huh, this was a fun question.

Connie

[Guest guest]

Oh I also remembered - I'm in the 1/4 that's a supertaster and I bet I

have those fat taste buds thing going on too. Irish/German/Scots

ethnicity. And a protein type in the metabolic diet thinking.

Connie

> Is evoking " mu " really an addiction or is it an unrecognized, quite

> natural survival process for those today that genetically survived

> from that ice age?

>

> Wanita

>

[Guest guest]

Connie-

>Tom that dietary fat thing is not all bunk. Fat evokes beta-

>endorphin, or " mu " in the addiction lit. If a person (like me) has

>genetic and lifestyle-induced low beta-endorphin, it is possible to

>light up the addiction pathways that way.

>

>This is NOT to say that fat is to be avoided. I enjoy all fats

>including saturated - but I also know how to work with food types

>and amounts so as to avoid the addictive patterns.

While certain neurological pathways involved in addiction may also be

lit up by fat consumption, I don't see how it's supportable to say

that fat is addictive, because fat is uniquely satiating. Fat

consumption by itself can never lead to ever greater fat consumption.

-

[Guest guest]

> While certain neurological pathways involved in addiction may also be

> lit up by fat consumption, I don't see how it's supportable to say

> that fat is addictive, because fat is uniquely satiating. Fat

> consumption by itself can never lead to ever greater fat consumption.

>

>

>

> -

Yes, fat is uniquely satisfying.

When I say addictive I mean using the definition sense of, " continued

use despite adverse consequences. " Not in the sense of, " don't eat

that it's like tobacco or morphine. "

It's a continuum - it may not be eating to a coma but eating more than

planned or wanted, just as a person can say " I'll only have one beer "

but then not be able to stop. Also when people get in trouble with

addictive eating of fats the fat is rarely " by itself " but in a

delivery system like nuts or cheese.

Connie

[Guest guest]

Connie-

I should've added that _saturated_ fat is much more satiating than

unsaturated fats, which is one reason nuts often confound people's

appestat. Another being the nuts' carb content. But I've never seen

anyone gorge on fatty cheese (as opposed to lean cheese) or steak or

fatty low-carb sausages or anything like that, unlike beer (carby and

alcoholic) or chips (fatty, yes, but very carby) or anything else

like that. It just doesn't happen.

And what adverse consequences are you speaking of?

>Yes, fat is uniquely satisfying.

>

>When I say addictive I mean using the definition sense of, " continued

>use despite adverse consequences. " Not in the sense of, " don't eat

>that it's like tobacco or morphine. "

>

>It's a continuum - it may not be eating to a coma but eating more than

>planned or wanted, just as a person can say " I'll only have one beer "

>but then not be able to stop. Also when people get in trouble with

>addictive eating of fats the fat is rarely " by itself " but in a

>delivery system like nuts or cheese.

-

[Guest guest]

> But I've never seen

> anyone gorge on fatty cheese (as opposed to lean cheese) or steak or

> fatty low-carb sausages or anything like that, unlike beer (carby and

> alcoholic) or chips (fatty, yes, but very carby) or anything else

> like that.

I have. any bulimics or other ED people? those are prime populations

for this. they might not have shared it with you is what I'm thinking.

> And what adverse consequences are you speaking of?

being too full; taking in way more food than one could ever metabolize;

hangover effects; rebound low beta-endorphin. Why do you ask?

Connie

[Guest guest]

On 11/16/05, cbrown2008 <cbrown2008@...> wrote:

> > But I've never seen

> > anyone gorge on fatty cheese (as opposed to lean cheese) or steak or

> > fatty low-carb sausages or anything like that, unlike beer (carby and

> > alcoholic) or chips (fatty, yes, but very carby) or anything else

> > like that.

>

> I have. any bulimics or other ED people? those are prime populations

> for this. they might not have shared it with you is what I'm thinking.

>

> > And what adverse consequences are you speaking of?

>

> being too full; taking in way more food than one could ever metabolize;

> hangover effects; rebound low beta-endorphin. Why do you ask?

>

Connie,

There is one metabolic typing researcher that types by gland

predominance and cravings. IIRC, it's the adrenal type that craves

steak and beer and needs much of their protein from dairy for

adrenals. Seems this type could get bulimic gorging the cravings

foods. On the other hand, only bulimic I knew gorged on cookies and

pastries. She'd be the thyroid type that is the protein type, needing

animal protein fat and lower carbs. Both get the same low beta

endorphin result eating their craving foods because the metabolisms

are different.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

>

> Connie-

>

> I should've added that _saturated_ fat is much more satiating than

> unsaturated fats, which is one reason nuts often confound people's

> appestat. Another being the nuts' carb content. But I've never seen

> anyone gorge on fatty cheese (as opposed to lean cheese) or steak or

> fatty low-carb sausages or anything like that, unlike beer (carby and

> alcoholic) or chips (fatty, yes, but very carby) or anything else

> like that. It just doesn't happen.

>

Yes. It does. I'm living proof haha now where's that 22 oz steak?

But I would still agree with you. I tried to follow the mcdougall diet

and when I became insanely ravenous I would cheat by eating

walnuts...didn't help. I would still feel like killing a goat with my

bare hands by 6 PM

Ari

[Guest guest]

On 11/17/05, arielb53 <aribhaviv@...> wrote:

> Yes. It does. I'm living proof haha now where's that 22 oz steak?

> But I would still agree with you. I tried to follow the mcdougall diet

> and when I became insanely ravenous I would cheat by eating

> walnuts...didn't help. I would still feel like killing a goat with my

> bare hands by 6 PM

Well steak by itself is a high-glycemic food, rich in glucogenic

proteins. I've read that a lean steak has a higher glycemic index

than theater popcorn. I wouldn't consider a meal high-fat that had a

food like steak without lots of added fat.

Chris

--

Dioxins in Animal Foods:

A Case For Vegetarianism?

Find Out the Truth:

http://www.westonaprice.org/envtoxins/dioxins.html

[Guest guest]

Connie-

>I have. any bulimics or other ED people? those are prime populations

>for this. they might not have shared it with you is what I'm thinking.

Blaming the gorging of bulimics on fat strikes me as misguided, but

even so, I'm not sure I've ever seen or heard of a bulimic gorging

exclusively on something like butter. Does it actually happen?

>being too full; taking in way more food than one could ever metabolize;

>hangover effects; rebound low beta-endorphin. Why do you ask?

Because it seems strange. Saturated fat is extremely satiating. In

the absence of factors which confound satiation, it regulates food

consumption and appetite extremely well.

-

[Guest guest]

> Blaming the gorging of bulimics on fat strikes me as misguided, but

> even so, I'm not sure I've ever seen or heard of a bulimic gorging

> exclusively on something like butter. Does it actually happen?

Yup. It's not about blame, it's biochemical. The source ( " blame " ) of

the binge part of ED is in unbalanced brain chemicals, which the

person can make feel better with big ol dose of addictive substances,

and yes, for some people, refined fat does it. Just like refining can

turn other things from natural/balanced to drug-like hits. If you

think about it, all the good stuff is refined. Poppies -> heroin,

whatever -> morphine, barley -> whiskey.

It does happen. It's rare though and I agree with you that far more

people get the hit from refined starches and also combined with trans

fats and, grain-fed meat or fats from that.

In fact, once on a poll of the " perfect storm " binge food, there were

two that were hands-down favorites. Both of them had white flour,

dairy, high fats from grain-fed animals, refined sugar, and

warmth/heat which maximizes the hit. Any guesses what they were?

> Because it seems strange. Saturated fat is extremely satiating.

In

> the absence of factors which confound satiation, it regulates food

> consumption and appetite extremely well.

Well maybe that's the part that reconciles with what you know. There

ARE factors which confound satiation. Bulimics and anorexics have

been measured lower in serotonin and beta-endorphin, and problems

with serotonin show up as problems with " stopping " (impulse control)

and satiety. It feels as if the " off switch " never trips. I know this

is also true with the insulin/blood sugar system, but it's not only

insulin / hormonal; it's the CNS too.

Connie

[Guest guest]

.... There

> ARE factors which confound satiation. Bulimics and anorexics have

> been measured lower in serotonin and beta-endorphin, and problems

> with serotonin show up as problems with " stopping " (impulse control)

> and satiety. It feels as if the " off switch " never trips. I know this

> is also true with the insulin/blood sugar system, but it's not only

> insulin / hormonal; it's the CNS too.

Connie,

one of the speakers at the conf. (I don't recall who, either Cannell

or Domisse, but will remember) said tryptophan three times/day

will stop bulimia--what are your thoughts on this, please?

B.

[Guest guest]

> Connie,

> one of the speakers at the conf. (I don't recall who, either Cannell

> or Domisse, but will remember) said tryptophan three times/day

> will stop bulimia--what are your thoughts on this, please?

> B.

>

Remembering that what I know is experiential data from a program that

doesn't do isolated supplements, plus reading and personal experience,

to be honest I haven't seen that. Do you know if there's been a

treatment program or study?

But I do know that bulimia is a trailing indicator; that is, it's

caused by physical imbalances earlier, usually inadequate nutrition or

trauma or both.

So if a person is actually deficient in that amino acid, then eating it

would fix things.

Also, tryptophan is a must-have for restoring the body's ability to

make serotonin. And since serotonin is definitely implicated in all

this, how could it hurt? Of all the ED types, bulimics have the lowest

serotonin of all.

But I could also see- throwing down isolated tryptophan while still

doing food choices and a lifestyle that blows through serotonin faster

than anyone could ever replenish it, then it wouldn't work. There are

elements of bulimia besides serotonin, and if you had the kind that was

only a little serotonin-based, tryptophan supplementation by itself

might not work so well.

Connie

[Guest guest]

Ari-

> > I should've added that _saturated_ fat is much more satiating than

> > unsaturated fats, which is one reason nuts often confound people's

> > appestat. Another being the nuts' carb content. But I've never seen

> > anyone gorge on fatty cheese (as opposed to lean cheese) or steak or

> > fatty low-carb sausages or anything like that, unlike beer (carby and

> > alcoholic) or chips (fatty, yes, but very carby) or anything else

> > like that. It just doesn't happen.

>

>Yes. It does. I'm living proof haha now where's that 22 oz steak?

>But I would still agree with you. I tried to follow the mcdougall diet

>and when I became insanely ravenous I would cheat by eating

>walnuts...didn't help. I would still feel like killing a goat with my

>bare hands by 6 PM

I don't follow. I'm saying that saturated fat by itself is the most

satiating food, and that saturated fat is more satiating than

unsaturated fat. What's a steak got to do with anything? And

anyway, even if you really gorge on steak, a very proteinaceous food,

there's a limit on how much you can eat, whereas people can munch on

carb-based snacks all day long.

-

[Guest guest]

> ...But I could also see- throwing down isolated tryptophan while still

> doing food choices and a lifestyle that blows through serotonin faster

> than anyone could ever replenish it, then it wouldn't work...

Connie,

which sort of lifestyle blows through serotonin faster?

thanks,

B.