Re: Sneaky eating was Diet advice for obesity

[Guest guest]

Jo,

<I'm in denial myself really, as I don't particularly want to admit

that DH has been lying to me for 3 years. >

Try not to take what he does personally. Find out more about the nature of

addiction, and you'll find that however trustworthy this man may ordinarily

be -- or want to be -- all bets are off when it comes to his food (as they

would be for an alcoholic with alcohol or a drug addict with heroin.) I

understand that you're suffering now (and will ultimately have to decide how

much suffering you want to continue in), but as others have said, there's

little, if anything, you control, or will ever control, regarding your

husband's overeating.

Can you focus on what you want and need for yourself that doesn't rely on

his choices (or lack of thereof)?

http://www.taichi4seniors.com

[Guest guest]

Sneaky eating was Diet advice for obesity

Hi Lynne

I'm in denial myself really, as I don't particularly want to admit

that DH has been lying to me for 3 years.

My own problems aside, do you have any thoughts on how NOT to enable

him? I have told him that I think one of his issues with food is his

sub-conscious telling him " if I don't cook it, it's not my

responsibility if I get fat " . However, I don't think he really

accepts it.

What helped you admit to being a secret eater? Should I try to find

a stash of " forbidden " foods? Should I quiz his sister (who works

with him every day) whether he goes out for food? Should I confront

him and force him to tell me? Threaten to leave if he doesn't lose

weight (I don't want to go there - I have no intention of leaving

him).

Thanks for any help

Jo

=======================

Jo,

I'm not Lynne, but here's a different perspective you might find useful.

It seems to me that there is a power struggle going on. DH is not focused on

himself and his own internal issues including his (lack of) health; he is

focused on you. Similarly, you are focused on him rather than yourself and

on what his issues are bringing up for you.

He is reacting to you (even if you are coming from a place of concern) and

you are reacting to him (and what you perceive as his self-destructiveness).

You want him to do something (or stop doing something, which is overeat) and

he wants you off his back.

As long as he feels pressure from you and responds to that pressure -- no

matter how well-meaning the place you are coming from -- the two of you will

become more and more polarized. This is the power struggle in operation. He

may tend to become even more sneaky and in greater denial, and you will feel

more aggravated and frustrated and powerless.

Have you thought of simply leaving him alone? And of truly accepting where

he is?

I am not talking simply of a behavioral change. I am referring to a deep and

genuine change in your attitude, of respecting him for his choices, even

though you might feel and believe with all your heart that his choices are

unwise.

I've seen this in couples a lot: when Person #1 totally and completely

accepts the partner, there is space for Person #2 to change. Right now DH is

busy reacting to you, and you are providing him with the fuel for reacting.

You *could* say, " I'm really concerned about you, and I'm also afraid for

myself if something should happen to you " [if this is indeed the case] --

but it has to be about YOU and how YOU feel, not about what you feel is

wrong with HIM.

If he is at the mercy of some malfunctioning biochemistry -- and I am not

discounting the severity of this, I've been there -- you can leave

literature around so it's available to him. When people are in the throes of

biochemical imbalance -- whether it's gluten intolerance or candida or heavy

metals or what have you -- they tend to be irrational. Gentle, unpressured

repetition can be useful here. On days when he's more balanced, he might

feel inclined to read it. And perhaps it will sink in.

People are ultimately responsible for their own choices, even if those

choices are to self-destruct. And even if those choices to self-destruct are

biochemical in nature.

As family therapists know, positive, awesome changes can occur in family

members who are not in therapy when just one person works on himself /

herself. What you radiate out really does make a difference. The Institute

of HearthMath, Dr. Glen Rein, and many other studies have shown this.

There is a free manual you can download from http://www.emofree.com/ . It

involves tapping on certain meridian points while thinking of and

verbalizing a problematic issue. Craig's Emotional Freedom Techniques

have been shown to work about 85% of the time, on severe issues like

addiction, eating disorders, depression, pain, and illness. I have used it

successfully for clients and even for my dog, using myself as a proxy.

Parents can use it for their children, and people can use it for their

absent partners and loved ones, again by proxy. You might benefit from

checking it out.

Sincerely,

Nenah

[Guest guest]

At 07:10 AM 8/2/2005, you wrote:

>What helped you admit to being a secret eater? Should I try to find

>a stash of " forbidden " foods? Should I quiz his sister (who works

>with him every day) whether he goes out for food? Should I confront

>him and force him to tell me? Threaten to leave if he doesn't lose

>weight (I don't want to go there - I have no intention of leaving

>him).

Jo:

One thought that comes to mind for me is that I live in a

family of workaholics. We sit and code until someone drags

us away from the computer or we are faint from hunger.

Then we eat lousy stuff. The ONLY thing that worked for

us, finally, was that the whole crew gets dragged into

the lunchroom at lunch time. Oh, and snacks get served

too. My DH doesn't really care what the food is, as long

as it just sort of arrives and he doesn't have to think about

it, and there's lots of it. If I don't provide food, he lives

off ice cream and pizza.

Judging from what you've said about him, he may well

be a " path of least resistance " person and could

do ok if he had enough food to eat that just " happens " ...

he's too busy thinking about business to think about food.

Which may be very, very difficult to do -- cooking lunch

for a crew isn't easy, it changed our whole business

operation! But what MIGHT be happening is that he

eats " just a little " then binges when he is starving and

passes a McD's. Then feels lousy about it.

If you work near where he works, you could meet him

for lunch, or pack something really yummy (and BIG) for

him to eat at the peak of the day. And snacks. Bulk

is important, at least at first. We followed something called

the " Cliff Sheats " diet some years ago, which had what

felt like huge meals, lots of stuff to chew, and we

never left the table hungry. Also we added MCT which

is a fat that really fills you up and increases your metabolism.

(I left that diet because it stopped working when we

added back the pasta after some weeks, which shoulda

been a clue!). Anyway, if you use the right foods, you

don't have to regulate the portions much, as you probably

found out on Atkins.

Also, if you eat WITH him you could get " addicted " to a

lunch game (poker lunches?) or reading (I read to the

family when I am skipping that meal, and they get addicted

to the book as much as the food). Human contact with

your loved one goes a long way to mitigating food addictions.

But I agree with the comments about " power struggles " ...

whatever you do it needs to be upbeat and FUN, not to

be interpreted as a punishment or ordeal.

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

On 8/3/05, jopollack2001 <jopollack2001@...> wrote:

> Hi Lynne

>

> I'm in denial myself really, as I don't particularly want to admit

> that DH has been lying to me for 3 years.

>

> My own problems aside, do you have any thoughts on how NOT to enable

> him? I have told him that I think one of his issues with food is his

> sub-conscious telling him " if I don't cook it, it's not my

> responsibility if I get fat " . However, I don't think he really

> accepts it.

>

> What helped you admit to being a secret eater? Should I try to find

> a stash of " forbidden " foods? Should I quiz his sister (who works

> with him every day) whether he goes out for food? Should I confront

> him and force him to tell me? Threaten to leave if he doesn't lose

> weight (I don't want to go there - I have no intention of leaving

> him).

>

> Thanks for any help

>

> Jo

>

Hi Jo,

I'm not Lynne either, but also have some ideas. I absolutely wouldn't

confront him in any way. I lived with an alcoholic for a year or so,

and none of those sorts of things had any affect except to stress me

out more.

I second what Neneh suggested about downloading the EFT manual and

using it yourself. She pretty much said what I wanted to post to you

yesterday, and didn't get chance to! You can't change him, but can

change yourself, and that can have amazing side effects.

I'd continue to provide good food for both of you, but not pressure

him in any way to eat it. If he doesn't eat dinner, well that's cool,

you've got leftovers for your own lunch.

In the meantime, EFT away on all of your own reactions to the

situation (and if you want some help figuring out what phrases to use,

you can email me offlist).

When you read the manual, you'll come across a phrase called

" psychological reversal " which he will have going on. So you might

start to think about WHY there is a part of him that doesn't want to

lose weight. What is his secondary gain? What would be the

consequences of him losing weight and keeping it off? His motivations

might not be obvious (to him either), but you might start to get some

insights.

And as Neneh says, after you've reduced your level of stress, you can

maybe start to " surrogate " EFT for him.

Good luck, Deb

(who harps on about EFT on NN lists, and harps on about gluten on EFT lists...)

[Guest guest]

> What helped you admit to being a secret eater? Should I try to find

> a stash of " forbidden " foods? Should I quiz his sister (who works

> with him every day) whether he goes out for food? Should I confront

> him and force him to tell me? Threaten to leave if he doesn't lose

> weight (I don't want to go there - I have no intention of leaving

> him).

Hi Jo--

I AM Lynn. And I second pretty much what everyone's told you so far

and sum it up in one great phrase from Al-Anon:

Keep the focus on yourself.

Replace the word " food " with " booze " and you've got a classic Al-Anon

codependent scenario listed above. Don't go there.

My mom and I struggled with each other all of my time at home over food

and my weight, and the end result was a bitter relationship (since

healed) and my ongoing weight problem. The more she pestered and

invaded my eating the sneakier I got. And the sicker we both got,

mentally and emotionally (and for me, physically).

What helped me was moving away from home. And even then it took me

years to get clear of it. I found great solace and help in the 12-step

programs. I've been through several as addictions popped up, because

for me it's like squishing a half-filled balloon in your fist; you poke

it all in and a part pops out between your knuckles, and when you poke

that in another bit pops out by your thumb. That's what it's like for

me; I have a personality flaw or whatever you want to call it. Another

favorite saying of mine from AA is, " what do you get when you sober up

a drunken a**hole? A sober a**hole. " I am still an a**hole sometimes

(aren't we all) but I know what to do about it now without resorting to

food, drugs, alcohol or spending too much.

In any event, you can't help him without helping yourself first. The

decision to change MUST be his and there's nothing you can do to hasten

it but keep the focus on yourself. How you choose to help yourself--12

step, EFT, counseling, whatever--that's up to you and I can't say

what's best for you, I can only say what worked for me. I still have a

weight problem but it's mostly because I have a low metabolism from

yo-yo dieting and I don't move enough. But I can say that I'm not

afraid of food any more. I can have ice cream in the fridge and not eat

the entire pint because it's there, calling me. Food is just food now.

I like it, even love it, but it doesn't rule me any more. It's a

wonderful feeling.

Lynn S.

------

Lynn Siprelle * web developer, writer, mama, fiber junky

http://www.siprelle.com * http://www.thenewhomemaker.com

http://www.deanspeaksforme.com * http://www.knitting911.net

[Guest guest]

--- In , Lynn Siprelle <lynn@s...>

wrote:

> > What helped you admit to being a secret eater? Should I try to

find

> > a stash of " forbidden " foods? Should I quiz his sister (who

works

> > with him every day) whether he goes out for food? Should I

confront

> > him and force him to tell me? Threaten to leave if he doesn't

lose

> > weight (I don't want to go there - I have no intention of leaving

> > him).

Jo,

I used to be a secret eater, and my husband has had some issues with

this, too. I just wanted to share a few thoughts and how we handle

it at home, because it's something I still struggle with

occasionally.

My secret eating started back when I was a kid and I used to have

huge cravings for junk food. I felt eating junk wasn't consistent

with my image, so I ate when no one was looking. I used to spend

lots of time fantasizing about eating junk. My parents used to brag

that I didn't eat junk food and I never ate my Halloween candy. And

I didn't eat my Halloween candy. I proudly displayed it in my

room. But, I stole candy from my siblings and took food from the

kitchen and ate it secretly in my room.

In college, I got hooked on Mcs. I get addicted to foods that

contain lots of chemicals. Even though it probably sounds stupid to

most people, quitting aspartame was like how other people describe

quitting smoking. Just typing this now makes me want to go drink a

diet coke.

Anyway, I was eating Mcs 1-2 times a day. I don't know why,

but I was afraid my roommates would think less of me if they knew,

so I was careful to throw the packaging away in the dumpster behind

our apartment. After eating Mcs 1-2x per day for 2 semesters,

I was suffering bad digestive problems and the lack of nutrients or

something was causing my joints to ache, and one of my legs was

going numb. My weight climbed from 119 to nearly 150(I'm 5'3) in

two semesters.

I decided to do Atkins to get my weight back down. For the next 5

or so years, I alternated between a low-carb diet to lose weight,

and secrete eating. Usually it was Mcs, Diet Coke, cheese and

crackers, pizza, potatoes and gravy, and candy bars. When I really

examined this issue, I realized it had a lot to do with

perfectionism, feeling guilty about secrete eating, and using eating

junk food to sorta punish myself for lying and spending money that

we couldn't afford on fast food.

People in real life who know me would be totally shocked by this

weakness. As a kid, I always had straight A's, perfect attendance

at school, always had the best project. This carried over to my

adult life. My identity and self-image is that I'm known as being

successful, and always on top of and in control of everything. I

end up solving other people's problems. I used to overcommit and

put myself under lots of stress to get everything finished (although

that's cought up with me in the last couple of years with the

arrival of kid #4). Pre-WAPF, I was known for being able to eat a

perfect low-fat diet, (though I really didn't). Secret, out-of-

control eating and lying about it, is just a shocker to most people

and very inconsistent to my public image. My husband is the only

person that knows and he only figured me out after being married for

about 5 years.

I've found in talking to people with eating disorders, that there

are two types. There are some who binge and once they start, they

can't stop. They report feeling almost drugged during and after the

binge. They often talk about how their brain just stops thinking

after just one bite. The solution for those people is to completely

avoid " trigger " foods, just like an alcoholic would avoid alcohol.

These types do well with things like Atkins.

Then there are others that crave foods more if they know they can't

have them. That's the group I'm in. I may binge, but it's because

I keep thinking I need to quit which makes me want the food more.

It's not really a drugged feeling like the above people describe. A

low-carb diet will work wonders for me for awhile, but no matter how

careful I am to fashion the diet to completely kill cravings, I

still end up eating what I know I can't eat simply because I can't

bear the thought of never eating X again. I don't do well long-

term with Atkins, even though life is great while I'm on it. I do

better with diets that take this weird psychology into account.

Like that diet(Body for Life) where you are on plan for 6 days, then

get a free day. Or the Warrior or Carb Addict's diet. I need to be

able to eat at least a tiny bit of " forbidden " foods or I revert

into self-destructive secret binge eating.

I have some issues with perfectionism and I want our diet at home to

be perfect. I have a tendency to make others (especially my

husband) feel guilty for eating anything I deem as junk. I realized

this was causing my husband to not mention what he was eating away

from home. He doesn't have secret eating issues (he is be totally

honest about what he eats if I ask him, but he doesn't usually

volunteer it). I came clean about some of my secret eating and

through some experimenting, this is how we handle food at our

house.

I found I have to allow myself a small amount of junk. I do make

sure it's wheat-free. If I'm hungry or experiencing blood-sugar

problems, I tend to only eat junk. So I make sure I have adequate

serotonin and a meal with protein, fat, and a few carbs. I make

sure I'm taking B6 and supplementing with 5-htp if I seem to be

getting low. Then, I eat 4 oz meat, a tbsp or two of fat and a

small lacto-fermented soda (4-6 oz kombucha, ginger ale, etc). Then

if I want anything else, no matter how bad it is, I eat it. And I

make sure I do it in front of everyone. Ninety-five percent of the

time, I don't want the junk after eating meat and fat. When I do

decide I need whatever, I usually don't eat anywhere near the amount

I would have eaten if it were the main course.

Same with hubby and kids. They just have to eat a little meat and

fat (amounts depend on the particular kid's size) at mealtime, then

they can have whatever. Even stuff with wheat. And I don't make

them feel guilty an any way, nor do I try to get them to eat

anything else, no matter how nutritious it is.

When I was eating secretly, I felt very, very guilty, ashamed, and

disappointed in myself. These feelings made me eat worse junk, even

after I started feeling stuffed and sick. It was sort of a self-

punishment for lying and hiding my eating. All of this lying and

hiding causes a lot of stress. If money is part of guilt, then it

makes things much, much worse. I heard of someone that was eating

in secret and using a credit card to pay for meals so the spouse

wouldn't know and ran up thousands in debt. The spouse only found

out about the debt when she opened a credit card bill while her

husband was in the hospital recovering from a heart attack. They

assumed it was the obesity and fat he was eating. I wonder if it

wasn't the stress from lying and hiding., or at least a combination

of the two.

I don't have a whole lot of good advise, because I really have to

stay on top of things to stay on the wagon. Most of the eating

disorder books I flipped through at the library were geared toward

behavior changes only, and focused on young girls (who your dh

probably won't identify with, lol). But I found The Mood Cure

(Addiction section) and Joan 's London (Depression Free,

Naturally and 7 Days to Sobriety) to be most helpful. In case your

hubby is like me, I'll list what I felt the general

problems/solutions are for me:

Problems

1) Powerfully addicted to chemicals in food: aspartame (biggest

addiction), msg, glutamates, caffeine, solvents, etc (interestingly,

gluten was easiest of all to give up)

2) Very low on serotonin (B6 deficiency in my case – caused by combo

of pyroluria and junk food depleting my supply). Low on serotonin

and B6 make addictions and cravings much, much harder (impossible)

to ditch

3) A need to occasionally eat something " bad " that will result in

becoming obsessed about it until I get to eat it

4) Driving need to be a high achiever and seen as successful,

perfect, in control etc. When I fail, I have feelings of intense

guilt, instead of whatever the normal reaction should be.

5) Secret meals being associated with guilt and shame, so all eating

becomes riddled wit h negative emotions.

6) Not eating a good meal before junk so the whole meal becomes a

junk binge, just because I'm hooked on it and making a good meal is

much more trouble.

My solutions

1) Always, always, always eat a fat/protein/(carbs if necessary)

meal first, then have enough junk food to satiety (on some regular

schedule like on a free-day or with dinner or whatever when I want

to lose weight. Never restricted at all if I start reverting to

secret eating or cravings)

2) Use Ross's amino acid therapy to quit addictions to food

chemicals and to reduce anxiety and perfectionism. Serotonin/B6 was

the biggie for me. I treat aspartame/food chemicals like the drugs

they are.

I don't know if any of this helped, but it sure helped me to write

it out. Sometimes I still think about how I would like to stop at

Mcs after dropping kids off at school. But most of the time

if I am following #1 and #2 above I don't have to depend on will-

power.

Katy

[Guest guest]

> One thought that comes to mind for me is that I live in a

> family of workaholics. We sit and code until someone drags

> us away from the computer or we are faint from hunger.

> Then we eat lousy stuff. The ONLY thing that worked for

> us, finally, was that the whole crew gets dragged into

> the lunchroom at lunch time. Oh, and snacks get served

> too. My DH doesn't really care what the food is, as long

> as it just sort of arrives and he doesn't have to think about

> it, and there's lots of it. If I don't provide food, he lives

> off ice cream and pizza.

Oh god, this is me if I'm not REALLY careful...I never thought I'd EVER

forget to eat until I started programming...

Lynn S.

------

Lynn Siprelle * web developer, writer, mama, fiber junky

http://www.siprelle.com * http://www.thenewhomemaker.com

http://www.deanspeaksforme.com * http://www.knitting911.net

[Guest guest]

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of Katy

>2) Very low on serotonin (B6 deficiency in my case – caused by combo

>of pyroluria and junk food depleting my supply). Low on serotonin

>and B6 make addictions and cravings much, much harder (impossible)

>to ditch

Katy,

Great post! Very informative. I think I need to take b-6 and was wondering

what dose you take? And did you get your dosing from Ross? Also, did

you get tested for pyroluria?

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

Suze-

>Great post! Very informative. I think I need to take b-6 and was wondering

>what dose you take? And did you get your dosing from Ross? Also, did

>you get tested for pyroluria?

If you decide to supplement with B6, don't waste your time and money with

pyridoxine. Try to find pyridoxamine and/or

pyridoxal-5-phosphate. Unfortunately, the FDA is waging war on

pyridoxamine despite the fact that it's one of the two legitimate animal

vitamers of B6 and is found especially in liver, but Jarrow has come out

with a pyridoxamine supplement and has decided to fight. (Theirs sucks,

though; it's mostly pyridoxine, and the fillers are awful, but at least

they're fighting. Of course CAFTA and the Codex might do an end run around

all of this.)

-

[Guest guest]

Hi Jo,

I feel very badly for your husband because I have been where he is. I

struggled with obesity my whole life. I feel strongly that obesity

runs in families, not because of behavior, but because of genetics.

Slow metabolisms run in families. And to be judged for being fat is

the worst feeling in the world. I hate it when people automatically

assume a fat person has a food addiction. That is so much garbage.

Sometimes, fat people DO have food addictions, but many obese

individuals do not. I was an obese individual who was not addicted to

food, but I suffered from obsessive thoughts about food because I was

constantly hungry. Just see how long you can go without thinking about

food when you are constantly starving. It's only natural to obsess

over food when you practice self-denial on a continual basis.

I grew up a fat teenager, but at 19 years of age, I decided to be thin

no matter what (I am also a perfectionist!). So I went on a severe

calorie restricted diet (500 - 800 calories a day combined with

intensive aerobic exercise). I lost 150 pounds and maintained that

weight loss for over 20 years. Even though I had 3 children during

that time, I was always able to lose the pregnancy weight and keep my

weight down, but I tell ya, I was always hungry, always obsessively

thinking about food because of the hunger and not allowing myself to

eat " fattening foods. "

Because of a life-time of calorie restriction, eating non-fat and

low-fat foods, running 25 - 35 miles a week, my metabolism became

very, very efficient. I was unable to eat more than 1200 calories a

day without gaining weight. I am 5'10 " tall, so surviving on 1000

calories or less per day was very difficult, but it is what I had to

do in order to keep the weight off.

Despite my incredible amount of self-control and self-denial, as I

grew older, my metabolism slowed more and more to the point that by

the age of 41 or 42, it pretty much came to a screeching halt. At that

point in time, I began to put the weight back on, and no matter how

hard I tried, no matter how little I ate, my weight ballooned. Within

2 or 3 years, I had gained all my weight back and was soon close to

300 pounds once again. I became too heavy to run or exercise, so I

stopped. This, in turn, made the weight pile on even faster. I pretty

much gave up. I wanted to die because of the intense unhappiness and

depression I felt from gaining the weight back.

That is when I made a very courageous decision. Four years ago, I

decided to lose the weight PERMANENTLY. The only way an obese person

can lose that much weight and keep it off permanently is to do what I

did. If you are interested in seeing my before and after pictures,

please email me privately, and I will send them to you.

For your husband's sake and your own, I suggest you check out this

website. http://www.duodenalswitch.com/ It is what I had to do to lose

the weight and keep it off. This is not for the person who only has 20

or 30 pounds to lose. This is for the disease of obesity, and folks,

it truly is a disease. It is not an addiction, nor is it due to a lack

of willpower or moral fortitude. I had all the willpower in the world,

but it didn't stop me from weighing nearly 300 pounds as a teenager,

and then again as a 42-year-old woman. The discrimination that obese

individuals have to suffer is incredible and cruel. After I became

normal weight for the final time, people began looking at me in the

eye, they stopped dismissing me as someone who was lazy or of low

intellect. They smiled at me, held doors for me. The change in the

behavior of people around me was astounding. I noticed it more this

time than I did the first time I lost the weight.

Your husband will never lose the weight on his own. Even if he were to

lose SOME weight, he will gain it back plus more. Every time an obese

person loses weight, they do more damage to their metabolism. They can

survive on less and less food because obesity is a disease of the

metabolism. Even though my thyroid levels showed " low-normal "

function, it was still not functioning correctly.

Now, four years later, I am able to eat 2500 calories per day or more

without fear of gaining weight. I eat a high-fat, high-protein diet

with no fluctuation in weight. For the first time in my life, I have

not had to have several different sizes of clothing in my closet

because of weight fluctuations. I eat more now than I ever did in my

life. I never go hungry and I never obsess over food because I eat

what I want. It is wonderful to be free from the fear of getting fat

and from the judgment of others.

Your husband may not be doing secret eating. It really could be that

his metabolism just won't allow him to lose the weight. Please let him

know that there is a cure and there is hope for him. Also be advised,

if he suffers from Type 2 diabetes as well, that this procedure also

cures diabetes. I know, I know, officially there is no known cure for

Type 2 Diabetes, but there are doctors in Spain and elsewhere who are

performing this procedure on non-obese individuals for the purpose of

curing Type 2 Diabetes. There are confirmed cases of normal weight

individuals who had this procedure done and are now cured of diabetes

and have regained full health. Also, virtually every obese individual

with accompanying Type 2 Diabetes has also been permanently cured. I

personally know several people who came off insulin immediately or

within 2 weeks after the procedure.

Again, if you are interested in hearing my personal story (online

journal with photos), please email me privately and I will gladly send

it to you.

Sincrely,

Southwest Idaho

[Guest guest]

Katy-

>3) A need to occasionally eat something " bad " that will result in

>becoming obsessed about it until I get to eat it

This is interesting to me, because that's one problem I don't have (my food

problems are all simple physiological ones) but I do know plenty of people

who have that issue to some degree, at least. Wouldn't EFT help? And EFT

could cut through that psychological problem, wouldn't you then be able to

eat better more consistently and thus further reduce physiological

addiction problems?

-

[Guest guest]

> Great post! Very informative. I think I need to take b-6 and was

wondering

> what dose you take? And did you get your dosing from Ross?

Also, did

> you get tested for pyroluria?

>

> Suze Fisher

According to one person that routinely treats pyroluria, she found

that some people need the Pyridoxine form, some need the P5P form,

and some need a combination of both. At her clinic, she just gives

people a combination of both, so they don't have to fiddle around

with it.

I take Thorne B Complex #6. It is a B-complex with extra B6. It

contains both forms of B6 so that everyone's covered. When I first

started taking B6, I had to take like 800mg per day. I switched to

Thorne brand and made some dietary changes that allowed me to reduce

my dose so that now I only take 250mg most days. One capsule of

Thorne is 250 mg B6, and you either have to go in 250 mg increments

to find the dosage, or supplement with a smaller dosage of an

isolated B6 capsule.

Isolated B6 _tablets_ causes extreme nausea and many people puke (me

included), but _capsules_ don't do that for some reason. Also

taking B6 with the rest of the B complex, even if it's not in

proportion, prevents the unfortunate nausea/puking effect.

I got my dosage from Joan Larson's Depression Free Naturally. She

is who Ross consults about pyroluria with, and she has more

pyroluria info in her book. She gives a suggested starting dosage

and says to increase by 100mg per day until you have good dream

recall. If you get disturbing and extreamly vivid dreams, then

that's too much.

She also says that stress (emotional or physical) will deplete B6

faster so you'll need to adjust your dosage up or down if something

stressful happens. After I was on a high dose for a few months and

feeling really good, I got where I could immediately tell if I had

forgot to take it for a couple of days. There's just a certain way

I feel if I'm low on B6 and I use that feeling to gauge my dose.

Some months during the week before my period, I have to take 2 B6s

for a few days. So evidently, even hormonal shifts are stressful

enough to effect dosage.

I didn't test at first. Someone told me about pyroluria and I

definitely had the low B6 symptoms. I tried some B6 and when I

quit, my irritability symptoms immediately came back. I could tell

after several cycles of starting/stopping supplementation that, for

whatever reason, I needed lots and lots of B6. My curiosity was

killing me so I did the test just so I'd know if it was pyroluria

that was causing my need for B6.

Katy

[Guest guest]

Katy-

>According to one person that routinely treats pyroluria, she found

>that some people need the Pyridoxine form, some need the P5P form,

>and some need a combination of both

Though this isn't necessarily definitive, there's no known vitamin activity

of pyridoxine. Why it's even considered a vitamer of B6 at all is beyond

me. The weight of tradition, I guess.

-

[Guest guest]

> Though this isn't necessarily definitive, there's no known vitamin

activity

> of pyridoxine. Why it's even considered a vitamer of B6 at all is

beyond

> me. The weight of tradition, I guess.

>

> -

I wonder exactly what it is, then? Biochem was too long ago for

me :-( It does seem to do something related to B6 deficiency

because when I first started B6 experimentation, I only knew about

pyridoxine and was able to get dream recall using it exclusively.

And on the pyroluria list group, I know some were successfully using

pyridoxine, though it's possible that their B-vit could also have

had the p5p form. Hmmm...

Katy

[Guest guest]

Katy-

>I wonder exactly what it is, then? Biochem was too long ago for

>me :-( It does seem to do something related to B6 deficiency

>because when I first started B6 experimentation, I only knew about

>pyridoxine and was able to get dream recall using it exclusively.

>And on the pyroluria list group, I know some were successfully using

>pyridoxine, though it's possible that their B-vit could also have

>had the p5p form. Hmmm...

Well, the body does have a limited ability to convert pyridoxine to P5P (or

PLP, as it's more properly called) so that would probably explain it. I

don't think pyridoxine is used for anything itself, though, and the body

doesn't convert anything back to PN either, whereas PM and PL exist in

equilibrium and can be converted in either direction as necessary.

-

[Guest guest]

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of Katy

>

>> Great post! Very informative. I think I need to take b-6 and was

>wondering

>> what dose you take? And did you get your dosing from Ross?

>Also, did

>> you get tested for pyroluria?

>>

>> Suze Fisher

>

>According to one person that routinely treats pyroluria, she found

>that some people need the Pyridoxine form, some need the P5P form,

>and some need a combination of both. At her clinic, she just gives

>people a combination of both, so they don't have to fiddle around

>with it.

Good to know, thanks :-)

>

>I take Thorne B Complex #6. It is a B-complex with extra B6. It

>contains both forms of B6 so that everyone's covered. When I first

>started taking B6, I had to take like 800mg per day. I switched to

>Thorne brand and made some dietary changes that allowed me to reduce

>my dose so that now I only take 250mg most days. One capsule of

>Thorne is 250 mg B6, and you either have to go in 250 mg increments

>to find the dosage, or supplement with a smaller dosage of an

>isolated B6 capsule.

I will have to check my current dose of the B's which I get from Ron's

multi. The amounts are very high. I also just got a 5HTP supp from Wild Oats

that also contains B6. Need to do the math.

>I got my dosage from Joan Larson's Depression Free Naturally. She

>is who Ross consults about pyroluria with, and she has more

>pyroluria info in her book. She gives a suggested starting dosage

>and says to increase by 100mg per day until you have good dream

>recall. If you get disturbing and extreamly vivid dreams, then

>that's too much.

Maybe I'm already getting too much then! LOL. I have good dream recall and

often have disturbing dreams. Mostly, though, I think it's cuz I eat too

late. Which almost always results in vivid disturbing dreams.

Thanks Katy, your posts are always very helpful and informative.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

>

[Guest guest]

> Maybe I'm already getting too much then! LOL. I have good dream

recall and

> often have disturbing dreams. Mostly, though, I think it's cuz I eat

too

> late. Which almost always results in vivid disturbing dreams.

>

Hi Suze

In case this helps, I often eat very late (I know I shouldn't!) and

still have absolutely no dream recall at all! I do suspect pyroluria

is a problem for me.

Jo