Guest guest Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 Dear , I'm no expert, but I don't think switching from coffee to tea will make that big of a difference in terms of weight loss. What are you eating? There are many people on this list who have lost significant amounts of weight on a low-carb diet that also incorporates the guidelines set out by the WAP Foundation. Still others have lost weight on " The Warrior Diet " (there's a book). If you give us more details on what you eat daily (perhaps keep a journal for a few days) we might be able to help you. > i've read that coffee makes you gain wt., tea makes you lose wt. > i've tried switching to tea many times but always go back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 , I used to drink a cup or two of coffee a day, just out of habit, but I have always been a tea lover/drinker. Since switching to more WAP-style diet, I drink green tea with bit of Rapadura (cane sugar) and lots of raw milk in the morning. I find it gets me going, makes me feel " warm and cozy " , and because of the milk keeps me satisfied until I have breakfast at work. For coffee, I switched to organic/fair-trade coffee that I have with Rapadura and raw cream. I have a cup or two a week. It did take a while for my body to get used to not having so much caffeine in the morning - it may take a lot longer for you. In the end, I'd rather rely on nutritious food to keep me going, rather than caffeine. I just learned to make healthier choices when it came to coffee/tea and not giving them up altogether. HTH and good luck, Magda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 , here is a typical day: get up. while the hot water is on to boil, i have kombucha. then 1-2 mugs coffee and/or tea with milk and cream. when i get hungry i have some TT concentrated coc. cream til i can't stand to eat anymore. usually about 2 T, maybe 3. the conc. coc. cream makes me crave milk so i'll have a big glass raw milk with extra cream added. when i get hungry again i'll have maybe more milk, maybe raw yogurt with cream, maybe kefir, maybe leftover dinner from last night. dinner is a normal dinner. last night we had grilled knockwurst with a good raw, live kraut, and mashed potads (with skin). then before bed i'll have more milk. the day before was almost the same except i had an egg salad sandwich for lunch, and grilled grass-fed burgers with raw garlic cheddar on spelt sourdough bread for dinner. i eat almost no veggies. i finally gave up; i was buying them and throwing them away because they would go bad either before or after cooking them. we are all much happier as a result...plus i save money. but we just joined an organic food co-op so we will be having high- brix organic produce soon. all i can say is the veggies better be good or all that money i've already pd for the season will go to waste. laura > Dear , > > I'm no expert, but I don't think switching from coffee to tea will > make that big of a difference in terms of weight loss. What are you > eating? There are many people on this list who have lost significant > amounts of weight on a low-carb diet that also incorporates the > guidelines set out by the WAP Foundation. Still others have lost > weight on " The Warrior Diet " (there's a book). > > If you give us more details on what you eat daily (perhaps keep a > journal for a few days) we might be able to help you. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 Hi Magda, it never entered my mind to put milk in green tea. but why not? i don't like green tea very much, tho i have a really nice one with mint...but maybe if i added milk... i make kombucha with green tea. i agree that healthy food is better than caffeine to keep you going. tried that; maybe it was the wrong healthy foods for me. maybe it's the demon gluten. i don't know. anyone read Chek? i had all the symptoms of eating too much fat. i eat a lot of fat. maybe if i ate all the fat i wanted but no carbs... it's very frustrating as i don't know how to eat. laura > , > > I used to drink a cup or two of coffee a day, just out of habit, but > I have always been a tea lover/drinker. > > Since switching to more WAP-style diet, I drink green tea with bit of > Rapadura (cane sugar) and lots of raw milk in the morning. I find it > gets me going, makes me feel " warm and cozy " , and because of the milk > keeps me satisfied until I have breakfast at work. > > For coffee, I switched to organic/fair-trade coffee that I have with > Rapadura and raw cream. I have a cup or two a week. > > It did take a while for my body to get used to not having so much > caffeine in the morning - it may take a lot longer for you. In the > end, I'd rather rely on nutritious food to keep me going, rather than > caffeine. I just learned to make healthier choices when it came to > coffee/tea and not giving them up altogether. > > HTH and good luck, > Magda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 A few thoughts: -I would definitely look into gluten sensitivity as it can mess up your internal " appestat " and really wreck havoc. You can cut out all gluten (wheat, barley, rye, oats) for a few weeks and see how it affects you. Cutting gluten out of the diet will automatically decrease the amount of carbs you eat. -The raw milk and starches (potatoes, sourdough, etc) contribute a lot of carbs to your diet. This could definitely prevent you from losing weight. I've heard complaints from folks about gaining weight after adding raw milk to the diet. The solution is to keep your milk consumption to kefir and yogurt--much less lactose. -Cooked veggies are a great way to add butter to your diet--have you tried steamed broccoli/kale/spinach with loads of butter, lemon, and salt? It's pretty good. HTH, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 Hi, I am new to this board and have joined to find out how people are dealing with more natural food, mostly because I am an Alternative Therapist and Dietician......I live in Mexico City where there is not much interest for natural food among the average population.... When we want to lose weight ( I have lost 65 pounds since last October 15th) we need to make each calorie count in terms of nutrition....and milk and a lot of milk products, especially if they are whole milk is not the route to go. One cup of commercial whole milk has 160 calories and I assume that raw milk has the cream that usually gets centrifuged off still in it......so one cup could be anywhere from 200-250 calories per cup, depending on what the cows eat and how active they are..... The simple rule for weightloss is: That we need to spend more calories then we ingest........this calorie deficit causes weightloss.......this is also much easier done, when exercise is added to the program..... I fell into the " Healthy Food " trap during several years........no matter if we eat commercial food, green food, home grown or even very expensive organic food....the calories are all the same.......I wish they weren't........I thought that my eating no junk food, no fast food etc was ok until.......I found myself with a lot of extra weight.......all from good and healthy food....but too much of it.... Also, I should mention that it worked out really well for me to eat basically five meals a day.......or three meals and two planned healthy snacks......all with carbohydrates, protein and some beneficial fat ( usuall 6 nuts, or a spoon ful of avocado)....it keeps the glucose in the blood from getting low and that keeps us from feeling hungry all the time...... I also learned to distinguish between physical and emotional hunger......and learned that most overweight people cannot distinguish between hunger anf thirst......it has helped me to drink a glass of plain water every time I felt hungry and in the meantime I have learned that eight out of ten times I was not hungry, but thirsty...... I admire each and everyone who has made the decision to live a healthier lifestyle and hope to be able to be a good and active member of this group... Good Luck to all in the process of making changes..... Angelika On 5/12/05, <jessclaire@...> wrote: > A few thoughts: > > -I would definitely look into gluten sensitivity as it can mess up > your internal " appestat " and really wreck havoc. You can cut out all > gluten (wheat, barley, rye, oats) for a few weeks and see how it > affects you. Cutting gluten out of the diet will automatically > decrease the amount of carbs you eat. > > -The raw milk and starches (potatoes, sourdough, etc) contribute a lot > of carbs to your diet. This could definitely prevent you from losing > weight. I've heard complaints from folks about gaining weight after > adding raw milk to the diet. The solution is to keep your milk > consumption to kefir and yogurt--much less lactose. > > -Cooked veggies are a great way to add butter to your diet--have you > tried steamed broccoli/kale/spinach with loads of butter, lemon, and > salt? It's pretty good. > > HTH, > > > > > <HTML><!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC " -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN " > " http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd " ><BODY><FONT > FACE= " monospace " SIZE= " 3 " > > <B>IMPORTANT ADDRESSES</B> > <UL> > <LI><B><A > HREF= " / " >NATIVE > NUTRITION</A></B> online</LI> > <LI><B><A HREF= " http://onibasu.com/ " >SEARCH</A></B> the entire message > archive with Onibasu</LI> > </UL></FONT> > <PRE><FONT FACE= " monospace " SIZE= " 3 " ><B><A > HREF= " mailto: -owner " >LIST OWNER:</A></B> > Idol > <B>MODERATORS:</B> Heidi Schuppenhauer > Wanita Sears > </FONT></PRE> > </BODY> > </HTML> > > > ________________________________ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 Angelika- >I fell into the " Healthy Food " trap during several years........no >matter if we eat commercial food, green food, home grown or even very >expensive organic food....the calories are all the same This simply isn't true. Low-carbing, for example, provides a definite metabolic advantage. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 Hi , You are absolutely right there are certain metabolic advantages to certain types of diets in regrd to calories used...this however does not change the fact that a calorie is always a calorie....and it is not what I was talking about...... I mentioned that I fell into the " Health Food " trap..... I ate healthy food...often organic ,no additives, no fast food, nothing canned, made my own yogurt and still do.......I did not take into consideration that even the best food has the same calories calories as their less-quality-less-natural equivalent. A spoon of commercial cream has the same calories as organic cream.....that's what I meant. And if we want to lose weight we have to take this into consideration.....by creating a calorie deficit.... Of course each person has too chose for longterm healthful weightloss the way that best suits them..... I hope that this time around I was a bit clearer Angelika On 5/12/05, Idol <Idol@...> wrote: > Angelika- > > >I fell into the " Healthy Food " trap during several years........no > >matter if we eat commercial food, green food, home grown or even very > >expensive organic food....the calories are all the same > > This simply isn't true. Low-carbing, for example, provides a definite > metabolic advantage. > > > > > - > > > > <HTML><!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC " -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN " > " http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd " ><BODY><FONT > FACE= " monospace " SIZE= " 3 " > > <B>IMPORTANT ADDRESSES</B> > <UL> > <LI><B><A > HREF= " / " >NATIVE > NUTRITION</A></B> online</LI> > <LI><B><A HREF= " http://onibasu.com/ " >SEARCH</A></B> the entire message > archive with Onibasu</LI> > </UL></FONT> > <PRE><FONT FACE= " monospace " SIZE= " 3 " ><B><A > HREF= " mailto: -owner " >LIST OWNER:</A></B> > Idol > <B>MODERATORS:</B> Heidi Schuppenhauer > Wanita Sears > </FONT></PRE> > </BODY> > </HTML> > > > ________________________________ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 >-I would definitely look into gluten sensitivity as it can mess up >your internal " appestat " and really wreck havoc. You can cut out all >gluten (wheat, barley, rye, oats) for a few weeks and see how it >affects you. Cutting gluten out of the diet will automatically >decrease the amount of carbs you eat. I can second 's thoughts here. My family ALL lost weight (except me) when I subbed rice flour for wheat flour. My dh is now back to his high school weight, and he never went on any diet at all. >-The raw milk and starches (potatoes, sourdough, etc) contribute a lot >of carbs to your diet. This could definitely prevent you from losing >weight. I've heard complaints from folks about gaining weight after >adding raw milk to the diet. The solution is to keep your milk >consumption to kefir and yogurt--much less lactose. Milk/cream are also foods that make some folks gain weight. I don't know exactly why: might be an allergic thing, might be that milk is designed to make babies grow (breastfed babies do get fat!). What works for me for losing weight is to concentrate on fruits/vegies and meat, with some whole grains (quinoa for me). Nuts make me NOT lose weight (though I don't seem to gain weight with them). Plenty of sunlight and exercise help too, and the feast/fast diet plan. I do eat potatoes and carrots and fruit, which have plenty of carbs: if I go too low carb I get edgy and headachy and don't seem to lose weight either. Heidi Jean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 Hi , You are absolutely right there are certain metabolic advantages to certain types of diets in regard to calories used...this however does not change the fact that a calorie is always a calorie....and it is not what I was talking about...... I mentioned that I fell into the " Health Food " trap..... I ate healthy food...often organic ,no additives, no fast food, nothing canned, made my own yogurt and still do.......I did not take into consideration that even the best food has the same calories as their less-quality-less-natural equivalent. A spoon of commercial cream has the same calories as organic cream.....that's what I meant. And if we want to lose weight we have to take this into consideration.....by creating a calorie deficit.... Of course each person has too chose for longterm healthful weightloss the way that best suits them..... I hope that this time around I was a bit clearer Angelika On 5/12/05, anglika Dobler <droelma@...> wrote: > Hi , > You are absolutely right there are certain metabolic advantages to > certain types of diets in regrd to calories used...this however does > not change the fact that a calorie is always a calorie....and it is > not what I was talking about...... > > I mentioned that I fell into the " Health Food " trap..... I ate > healthy food...often organic ,no additives, no fast food, nothing > canned, made my own yogurt and still do.......I did not take into > consideration that even the best food has the same calories calories > as their less-quality-less-natural equivalent. A spoon of commercial > cream has the same calories as organic cream.....that's what I meant. > And if we want to lose weight we have to take this into > consideration.....by creating a calorie deficit.... > Of course each person has too chose for longterm healthful weightloss > the way that best suits them..... > I hope that this time around I was a bit clearer > Angelika > > On 5/12/05, Idol <Idol@...> wrote: > > Angelika- > > > > >I fell into the " Healthy Food " trap during several years........no > > >matter if we eat commercial food, green food, home grown or even very > > >expensive organic food....the calories are all the same > > > > This simply isn't true. Low-carbing, for example, provides a definite > > metabolic advantage. > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > > <HTML><!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC " -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN " > > " http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd " ><BODY><FONT > > FACE= " monospace " SIZE= " 3 " > > > <B>IMPORTANT ADDRESSES</B> > > <UL> > > <LI><B><A > > HREF= " / " >NATIVE > > NUTRITION</A></B> online</LI> > > <LI><B><A HREF= " http://onibasu.com/ " >SEARCH</A></B> the entire > message > > archive with Onibasu</LI> > > </UL></FONT> > > <PRE><FONT FACE= " monospace " SIZE= " 3 " ><B><A > > HREF= " mailto: -owner " >LIST OWNER:</A></B> > > Idol > > <B>MODERATORS:</B> Heidi Schuppenhauer > > Wanita Sears > > </FONT></PRE> > > </BODY> > > </HTML> > > > > > > ________________________________ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 >> The simple rule for weightloss is: That we need to spend more calories then we ingest........this calorie deficit causes weightloss....... << Yes, this rule is so simple it's completely useless. It is also not QUITE true, at least not for everyone. It's been shown that there is a small but measurable metabolic advantage to eating very high fat, low carb, in that people eating this way lose more weight eating more calories than people eating low fat, high carb. So don't discount changing the way you eat as a way to lose weight. BUT.... In my experience, the only thing that works is to find out why your appestat is not working. If your problem is emotional, then you have to fix that. If your problem is carbs, or gluten, or some other food sensitivity, addiction, or intolerance or allergy or whatever you want to call it, then you have to find a way of eating that fixes THAT. Then your food intake will reduce naturally, or at least, you'll be able to train new habits into yourself if it doesn't do it spontaneously. Because without a functioning appestat, you are simply not going to have longterm success. The idea of recommending " eat less, exercise more " to lose weight is quite simply the most bankrupt philosophy for reaching and maintaining a healthy weight, because for the vast majority of people, they CANNOT DO IT. We can't live like that. I wrote about this recently in my blog, and I believe I linked to it here when I did, but here it is again. Anyone who presumes to give weight loss advice, or anyone who has a lot of weight they want to lose, really should read it: http://www.doggedblog.com/doggedblog/2005/04/and_the_fat_war.html Christie Caber Feidh ish Deerhounds Holistically Raising Our Dogs Since 1986 http://www.caberfeidh.com http://doggedblog.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2005 Report Share Posted May 13, 2005 >> You are absolutely right there are certain metabolic advantages to certain types of diets in regard to calories used...this however does not change the fact that a calorie is always a calorie.... << But a calorie is NOT always a calorie, if you can eat more calories and lose more weight by adjusting macronutrient levels. Clearly a calorie of high fat low carb is not equivalent to a calorie of low fat high carb, or the two groups would lose the same amount of weight eating the same amount of calories. I realize you have identified this as not being your main point, but I think it is a fundamental misconception and that it underlies your main point. Yes, a badly formulated diet that is all organic is just as " fattening " as a badly formulated NON-organic diet, but macronutrient levels DO matter, more so for some people than others, but nonetheless... they matter. Christie Caber Feidh ish Deerhounds Holistically Raising Our Dogs Since 1986 http://www.caberfeidh.com http://doggedblog.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2005 Report Share Posted May 13, 2005 This is incorrect. Researchers have done studies on twins where one was fed low carb and the other high carb, both with the same amount of calories. There was no metabolic advantage for either. Re: Re: coffee/tea Angelika- >I fell into the " Healthy Food " trap during several years........no >matter if we eat commercial food, green food, home grown or even very >expensive organic food....the calories are all the same This simply isn't true. Low-carbing, for example, provides a definite metabolic advantage. - <HTML><!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC " -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN " " http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd " ><BODY><FONT FACE= " monospace " SIZE= " 3 " > <B>IMPORTANT ADDRESSES</B> <UL> <LI><B><A HREF= " / " >NATIVE NUTRITION</A></B> online</LI> <LI><B><A HREF= " http://onibasu.com/ " >SEARCH</A></B> the entire message archive with Onibasu</LI> </UL></FONT> <PRE><FONT FACE= " monospace " SIZE= " 3 " ><B><A HREF= " mailto: -owner " >LIST OWNER:</A></B> Idol <B>MODERATORS:</B> Heidi Schuppenhauer Wanita Sears </FONT></PRE> </BODY> </HTML> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2005 Report Share Posted May 13, 2005 Green tea is a good source the the antioxidant polyphenols. These are the same nutrient that the red wine health benefits are based upon. Studies have reported that 1/3 cup of green tea a day can reduce the risk of many cancers by 30%. coffee/tea hi folks, i've been addicted to coffee since my 20's when i had an office job. i'm now 50. i'm also substantially overwt. and probably obese. (hate that word.). my husband has also been addicted for at least as long as i have and he is of normal wt. i've read that coffee makes you gain wt., tea makes you lose wt. i've tried switching to tea many times but always go back. also, i've heard tea has many health benefits, especially for the arteries. anyone an expert on this subject? maybe if i just force myself to switch to tea, no matter what, maybe i'll lose wt. and will be healthier? i love kombucha but as i said in another post, it doesn't have enuf caffeine to get me going in the morning. anyway, i don't think you're supposed to consume kombucha in large amounts. anybody read that article on www.onibasu.com about the 2 women who died from drinking kombucha? (from mold). thanks, laura <HTML><!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC " -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN " " http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd " ><BODY><FONT FACE= " monospace " SIZE= " 3 " > <B>IMPORTANT ADDRESSES</B> <UL> <LI><B><A HREF= " / " >NATIVE NUTRITION</A></B> online</LI> <LI><B><A HREF= " http://onibasu.com/ " >SEARCH</A></B> the entire message archive with Onibasu</LI> </UL></FONT> <PRE><FONT FACE= " monospace " SIZE= " 3 " ><B><A HREF= " mailto: -owner " >LIST OWNER:</A></B> Idol <B>MODERATORS:</B> Heidi Schuppenhauer Wanita Sears </FONT></PRE> </BODY> </HTML> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2005 Report Share Posted May 13, 2005 >> This is incorrect. Researchers have done studies on twins where one was fed low carb and the other high carb, both with the same amount of calories. There was no metabolic advantage for either. << Can you please post the citation for this? I have no idea what study that is so it's impossible to respond. The studies that and I are referencing are these, which clearly indicate that, at least for some individuals, the metabolic advantage is measurable and real: Rabast, U., Kasper, H., Schonborn, J., " Comparative Studies in Obese Subjects Fed Carbohydrate-Restricted and High-Carbohydrate 1,000 Calorie Formula Diets, " Nutritional Metabolsim, 22, 1978, pages 269-277. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstra\ ct & list_uids=662209 Scientists Validate the Metabolic Advantage http://atkins.com/Archive/2004/8/27-839151.html A low-carbohydrate, ketogenic diet versus a low-fat diet to treat obesity and hyperlipidemia: a randomized, controlled trial. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstra\ ct & list_uids=15148063 One recent study from the Journal of Adolescent Health compared two groups of overweight teenaged boys, one on a normal low-fat diet that comprised around 1200 calories a day, and the other on a low-carb diet that comrised over 1800 calories a day. The boys on the low carb, higher calorie diet lost an average of 21.7 pounds, while the boys on the low fat, lower calorie diet lost only 9.1. The low-carb group also had an improved body mass index (BMI) score as well Teens Triumph on Low Carb Diet http://atkins.com/Archive/2001/12/26-369015.html Feinman, R.D., Fine, E.J., " Thermodynamics and Metabolic Advantage of Weight Loss Diets, " Metabolic Syndrome and Related Disorders, 1(3), 2003, pages 209-219. http://atkins.com/Archive/2004/3/25-678239.html There's more but I have to go .... I would very much like to see the citation to the twin study you are referencing. Christie Caber Feidh ish Deerhounds Holistically Raising Our Dogs Since 1986 http://www.caberfeidh.com http://doggedblog.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2005 Report Share Posted May 13, 2005 I suppose its a little disappoining to find out the study was very limited. Journal-World (Lawrence, KS) 27 January 2004. http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2004/jan/27/ku_research_has/ KU research has beef with Atkins diet Professor disputes low-carb regimen's claim By Terry Rombeck (Contact) Tuesday, January 27, 2004 Kenna enfeld is a believer. After losing 116 pounds while on the Atkins diet, the Lawrence teacher pitches the low-carbohydrate regimen to anyone considering a weight-loss plan. So enfeld wasn't about to be swayed Monday after learning of new evidence that one of the Atkins diet's cornerstones may be scientifically inaccurate. advertisement " I'd like to know why it works out of curiosity, " she said. " But bottom line is it doesn't really matter. It works for me. " The preliminary research, conducted at Kansas University, disputes the claim that Atkins dieters burn energy at a faster rate than other people because they eat a high proportion of protein. Atkins backers commonly refer to the claimed phenomenon as " metabolic advantage. " The project, conducted by ph Donnelly, director of KU's Center for Physical Activity and Weight Management, came at the request of the British Broadcasting Corp. The BBC program " Horizon " paid $10,000 for a model demonstration to test the energy-burning theory as part of a special on the Atkins diet. " The real thing they were after was, is there any reason to believe there's something unique and advantageous about the diet? " Donnelly said. " You sort of get into the realm that something mystical is happening there. " Put to the test Donnelly selected two test subjects -- twin men -- and determined how many calories they need to fulfill their energy requirements. One then ate that number of calories on an Atkins menu for two weeks, while the other ate foods that would be found on traditional low-fat diet menus. He then used a calorimeter -- a small room that measures oxygen and carbon dioxide balance to determine energy expenditure -- to determine how many calories were burned by each man. Kenna enfeld prepares a meal of chicken casserole and lettuce. enfeld, who has lost more than 100 pounds on the Atkins diet, prepared her meal Monday in her Lawrence home. " We found no difference whatsoever, " Donnelly said. Filming for the BBC special occurred in October. The special aired last week and included other examples of research showing that even the late Dr. Atkins, who developed the diet, didn't fully understand how it worked. Donnelly is quick to note, though, that his test involving two men didn't comprise a scientific sampling. " We don't claim this is an experiment, " he said. " This is a mock-up demonstration. We showed, at very least, this is how we would do it. " Donnelly said his lab was applying for National Institutes of Health funding to conduct a complete trial. New study: Eat your carbs; just cut the fat Atkins Nutritionals Atkins Diet Alert Defending the diet Even diet supporters agree it's possible that Donnelly's research could be correct and that Atkins' claims are unsubstantiated. Vernon, a Lawrence physician who is a top consultant for New York-based Atkins Nutritionals, said Donnelly's research wasn't conclusive because it involved such a small sample and short time period. The twins' metabolism would have been different over time because it takes days to burn off stored sugars, a step toward reaching the full Atkins effect, she said. But she conceded that no study existed to conclusively back the metabolic advantage claim. Most Atkins research, she said, has focused on the diet's results. " The science is pretty clear -- yes, it works, " she said. " Why? Well, we haven't even started that. This little foray is the first into why it might work. " But she defended Atkins' decision to present the metabolic advantage theory. " If he had waited for people to be willing to test his experience (as a physician), then millions of people would still be suffering, " Vernon said. " He did whatever he had to do to get the message out. " Vernon said she welcomed the idea of federal funding to prove or disprove Atkins diet theories. " That would be great. Let's go for it, " she said. " Let's do the real science. " For Alice Lieberman, the scientific details of Atkins aren't important. The Lawrence resident said she had found Atkins more effective than the other diets she's tried. She has lost 14 pounds, and kept them off, in the past year on the low-carb diet. " I like to say I've lost 10,000 pounds over the years, five pounds at a time, back and forth, " she said. " The mechanism of Atkins eludes me, but all I know is it works. " advertisement a.. 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" I think anything they can do to evaluate an individual's ability to learn would be helpful. " - Bruce, illustrator, Lawrence a.. Read more and add your thoughts (23 comments) Re: Re: coffee/tea >> This is incorrect. Researchers have done studies on twins where one was fed low carb and the other high carb, both with the same amount of calories. There was no metabolic advantage for either. << Can you please post the citation for this? I have no idea what study that is so it's impossible to respond. The studies that and I are referencing are these, which clearly indicate that, at least for some individuals, the metabolic advantage is measurable and real: Rabast, U., Kasper, H., Schonborn, J., " Comparative Studies in Obese Subjects Fed Carbohydrate-Restricted and High-Carbohydrate 1,000 Calorie Formula Diets, " Nutritional Metabolsim, 22, 1978, pages 269-277. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstra\ ct & list_uids=662209 Scientists Validate the Metabolic Advantage http://atkins.com/Archive/2004/8/27-839151.html A low-carbohydrate, ketogenic diet versus a low-fat diet to treat obesity and hyperlipidemia: a randomized, controlled trial. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstra\ ct & list_uids=15148063 One recent study from the Journal of Adolescent Health compared two groups of overweight teenaged boys, one on a normal low-fat diet that comprised around 1200 calories a day, and the other on a low-carb diet that comrised over 1800 calories a day. The boys on the low carb, higher calorie diet lost an average of 21.7 pounds, while the boys on the low fat, lower calorie diet lost only 9.1. The low-carb group also had an improved body mass index (BMI) score as well Teens Triumph on Low Carb Diet http://atkins.com/Archive/2001/12/26-369015.html Feinman, R.D., Fine, E.J., " Thermodynamics and Metabolic Advantage of Weight Loss Diets, " Metabolic Syndrome and Related Disorders, 1(3), 2003, pages 209-219. http://atkins.com/Archive/2004/3/25-678239.html There's more but I have to go .... I would very much like to see the citation to the twin study you are referencing. Christie Caber Feidh ish Deerhounds Holistically Raising Our Dogs Since 1986 http://www.caberfeidh.com http://doggedblog.com <HTML><!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC " -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN " " http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd " ><BODY><FONT FACE= " monospace " SIZE= " 3 " > <B>IMPORTANT ADDRESSES</B> <UL> <LI><B><A HREF= " / " >NATIVE NUTRITION</A></B> online</LI> <LI><B><A HREF= " http://onibasu.com/ " >SEARCH</A></B> the entire message archive with Onibasu</LI> </UL></FONT> <PRE><FONT FACE= " monospace " SIZE= " 3 " ><B><A HREF= " mailto: -owner " >LIST OWNER:</A></B> Idol <B>MODERATORS:</B> Heidi Schuppenhauer Wanita Sears </FONT></PRE> </BODY> </HTML> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2005 Report Share Posted May 13, 2005 Well, as you pointed out this wasn't much of a sample, being just one set of twins. And the guy doing it himself said it's not a study at all. But my problem with it goes beyond those two points. One, they didn't look at weight lost but used a " calorimeter " to measure energy output. The fact is, no one values a weight loss plan because it increases energy output, they value it because it helps them lose weight. So that seems like an odd surrogate marker, and a bit circular in its reasoning, too. Especially as one speculation is not that Atkins causes you to " burn " more calories (although I think there is a good argument to be made that does happen ... it's made for the consumption of certain " thermogenic " foods like coconut oil, too), but that a certain amount of dietary fat is not digested at all. So this would completely miss that. Two, the underlying premise is just another " fake Atkins " one. They say, " The preliminary research, conducted at Kansas University, disputes the claim that Atkins dieters burn energy at a faster rate than other people because they eat a high proportion of protein. Atkins backers commonly refer to the claimed phenomenon as 'metabolic advantage'. " The problem with this is that ATKINS IS NOT A HIGH PROTEIN DIET. Atkins is a HIGH FAT, LOW CARB diet. You do not eat high protein on Atkins, and the " metabolic advantage " is supposed to relate to controlling carbs and eating high fat, and has nothing to do with protein. Again, it's as if they made some Atkins program up in their head and are debunking or studying THAT, not the actual Atkins plan as it was written. It drives me stark raving insane when they do this. Again, I don't say that there is nothing to dispute in the Atkins plan as written. I have a few things I've come to disagree with the good doctor on. But that doesn't justify those who attack Atkins without knowing or finding out what the plan REALLY says. That's just wrong. Christie Caber Feidh ish Deerhounds Holistically Raising Our Dogs Since 1986 http://www.caberfeidh.com http://doggedblog.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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