high fluoride in native diets

[Guest guest]

In this webpage, Ray Grogan makes the case that it was the high

amounts of fluoride found naturally in native diets that is the reason

for their cavity resistance:

http://raygrogan-ivil.tripod.com/osteo/id5.html

(the shape of the jaw, I should note, is a function of getting enough

vitamin A)

[Guest guest]

--- In , " arielb53 " <aribhaviv@f...>

wrote:

>

> In this webpage, Ray Grogan makes the case that it was the high

> amounts of fluoride found naturally in native diets that is the reason

> for their cavity resistance:

> http://raygrogan-ivil.tripod.com/osteo/id5.html

>

> (the shape of the jaw, I should note, is a function of getting enough

> vitamin A)

>

Even when some of the people Price studied ate a little bit of modern

food, tooth decay was pretty bad. I don't believe that article has

any relevance.

I had problems with mottling of the teeth (brown spots) that nearly

completely disapppeared since I started drinking spring water. I was

drinking water from a Pur Filter before.

Flouride may be useful in small amounts, from food, but I think the

flouride they add to water is not good at all.

[Guest guest]

On 10/31/05, arielb53 <aribhaviv@...> wrote:

> In this webpage, Ray Grogan makes the case that it was the high

> amounts of fluoride found naturally in native diets that is the reason

> for their cavity resistance:

> http://raygrogan-ivil.tripod.com/osteo/id5.html

>

> (the shape of the jaw, I should note, is a function of getting enough

> vitamin A)

Seems like a classic case of correlation not implying causation-- he

compares fluoride content to the SAD and assumes that the extra

fluoride must have caused the dental improvements. Seems like a

pretty unlikely argument given the controversy over fluoride's benefit

(despite his definitive Excel graphs) versus the clear evidence of the

benefit of eating the zillion other vitamins and minerals that were

also more abundant in traditional diets.

[Guest guest]

> > In this webpage, Ray Grogan makes the case that it was the high

> > amounts of fluoride found naturally in native diets that is the reason

> > for their cavity resistance:

> > http://raygrogan-ivil.tripod.com/osteo/id5.html

> >

> > (the shape of the jaw, I should note, is a function of getting enough

> > vitamin A)

>

> Seems like a classic case of correlation not implying causation-- he

> compares fluoride content to the SAD and assumes that the extra

> fluoride must have caused the dental improvements. Seems like a

> pretty unlikely argument given the controversy over fluoride's benefit

> (despite his definitive Excel graphs) versus the clear evidence of the

> benefit of eating the zillion other vitamins and minerals that were

> also more abundant in traditional diets.

>

>

There are plenty of other studies that show fluoride's benefit to

teeth. My point is that fluoride was highly abundant in native diets

and they had no problems with it. It's also in your diet if you eat

sea salt, bone broths and lots of green leafy vegetables.

[Guest guest]

>

> Even when some of the people Price studied ate a little bit of modern

> food, tooth decay was pretty bad. I don't believe that article has

> any relevance.

>

A little bit? That's pretty sad because I grew up on SAD (you name the

junk: I ate or drank it) and have zero cavities. I did have one cavity

in a 'baby' tooth however but that's ancient history.

> I had problems with mottling of the teeth (brown spots) that nearly

> completely disapppeared since I started drinking spring water. I was

> drinking water from a Pur Filter before.

I don't know...once my uncle invested in fluoride free water to use

instead of tap water, everyone came down with lots of cavities. He

ended up stopping the deliveries.

> Flouride may be useful in small amounts, from food, but I think the

> flouride they add to water is not good at all.

You can get a lot of fluoride from food. If everyone ate sea salt,

spinach, whole grains and bones you'd get more fluoride than what

you'd get from the water.

[Guest guest]

On 10/31/05, arielb53 <aribhaviv@...> wrote:

>

> > Seems like a classic case of correlation not implying causation-- he

> > compares fluoride content to the SAD and assumes that the extra

> > fluoride must have caused the dental improvements. Seems like a

> > pretty unlikely argument given the controversy over fluoride's benefit

> > (despite his definitive Excel graphs) versus the clear evidence of the

> > benefit of eating the zillion other vitamins and minerals that were

> > also more abundant in traditional diets.

> >

> >

>

> There are plenty of other studies that show fluoride's benefit to

> teeth. My point is that fluoride was highly abundant in native diets

> and they had no problems with it. It's also in your diet if you eat

> sea salt, bone broths and lots of green leafy vegetables.

But there are plenty of studies that show no correlation at all. My

point is that your argument could be applied to *any* other substance

that's in larger quantity in traditional diets that might also be

dubiously correlated with dental health. They can't all be

resonsible. Or, put another way, fluoride at best plays a minor part.

And even that article mentioned tribes that had ODed on it, as shown

by their mottled teeth. That at least shows that we should be careful

about adding it to water etc willy-nilly. (of course this is true of

lots of other nutrients...)

I have no idea whether fluoride is important or not, but I do know

these things: the evidence in favor of it is pretty shaky, it's

clearly a poison in larger amounts, and there are many other

vitamins/minerals/etc that are much more clearly beneficial. *shrug*,

i'll take my chances without any extra.

[Guest guest]

--- In , Furbish <efurbish@g...>

wrote:

> And even that article mentioned tribes that had ODed on it, as shown

> by their mottled teeth. That at least shows that we should be careful

> about adding it to water etc willy-nilly. (of course this is true of

> lots of other nutrients...)

>

> I have no idea whether fluoride is important or not, but I do know

> these things: the evidence in favor of it is pretty shaky, it's

> clearly a poison in larger amounts, and there are many other

> vitamins/minerals/etc that are much more clearly beneficial. *shrug*,

> i'll take my chances without any extra.

>

>

You have a very good point about the OD'ing and it makes even more

sense to take it out of the water if you are following a native diet

which already has enough fluoride. My uncle's family would be better

off if they kept the bottled water deliveries and changed their diet

instead of tap water and SAD!

But on the other hand one shouldn't say " fluoride is evil so not only

will I take it out of my water but I won't eat anything that is a

significant source such as sea salt, spinach and fish bone broth. "

I'm more concerned about getting too much iron, however, which is an

oxidant and very easy to overload on especially guys like me who like

to eat red meat all the time (premenopausal women have the opposite

problem of anemia since they tend to prefer white meat or even be

vegetarian and they lose blood every month)

see

http://www.theomnivore.com/iron_exchange.html

Perhaps this was the wisdom behind regular bloodletting which would

reduce excess iron levels...or we could donate blood, avoid cast iron

pans and lots of red meat.

[Guest guest]

--- In , " arielb53 " <aribhaviv@f...>

wrote:

>

> --- In , " gdawson6 " <gdawson6@y...>

wrote:

> >

> > Even when some of the people Price studied ate a little bit of modern

> > food, tooth decay was pretty bad. I don't believe that article has

> > any relevance.

> >

>

> A little bit? That's pretty sad because I grew up on SAD (you name the

> junk: I ate or drank it) and have zero cavities. I did have one cavity

> in a 'baby' tooth however but that's ancient history.

This is from a posting by Sally Fallon. And yes, a Little Bit of

white mans food could nearly wipe out a native tribe.

" Actually, I have another theory. The native diet would have been one

very easy

to digest (all natural, lots of fat-soluble vitamins, and lots of

fermented

foods, also broth) so that the body would have been able to put all

the energy

and materials into creating the most magnificant body, strong dental

arches,

keen eyesight, stamina, etc. I imagine that the pancreas and liver of

these

people would have been relatively small as there were no stresses on these

organs.

Even a small degradation of the diet, with the contact with the white

man's food

and alcohol, would have been catastrophic for the native Americans who

would not

have had the liver and pancreatic capacity to cope. Whereas if you

begin your

life on the western diet, the body will try to compensate by making a

larger

pancreas and liver but won't be able to put as much into building a

strong body

with wide dental arches. So, while a small amount of processed food is

not as

devasting to us, we pay the price in reduced strength, narrow faces,

etc. Sally "

[Guest guest]

On 11/1/05, Furbish <efurbish@...> wrote:

> But there are plenty of studies that show no correlation at all. My

> point is that your argument could be applied to *any* other substance

> that's in larger quantity in traditional diets that might also be

> dubiously correlated with dental health. They can't all be

> resonsible. Or, put another way, fluoride at best plays a minor part.

If it is the mere existence of many essential components that makes a

single one of them take on a " minor " role, then they all equally share

a " minor " role. I don't think it would be accurate to call such a

role " minor, " however, because it only takes a deficiency of a single

essential nutrient to yield disease. If all the components are

present, the role of each may seem minor, but if one is missing, then

suddenly that one nutrient, which played a minor role in health, plays

a major role in disease.

> And even that article mentioned tribes that had ODed on it, as shown

> by their mottled teeth. That at least shows that we should be careful

> about adding it to water etc willy-nilly. (of course this is true of

> lots of other nutrients...)

I agree.

> I have no idea whether fluoride is important or not, but I do know

> these things: the evidence in favor of it is pretty shaky, it's

> clearly a poison in larger amounts, and there are many other

> vitamins/minerals/etc that are much more clearly beneficial. *shrug*,

> i'll take my chances without any extra.

Price had a chapter on fluroide in _NAPD_. I think he mentioned it

having some essentiality and I know he discussed toxicity. I don't

remember what his conclusion was about its essentiality, but if it is

essential in some quantity, I don't think it makes sense to quantify

its importance. If something is essentially, it basically has

infinite importance with respect to the specific diseases that result

from its deficiency, and the quantifiable aspect would be how much our

intake should be.

Chris

--

Dioxins in Animal Foods:

A Case For Vegetarianism?

Find Out the Truth:

http://www.westonaprice.org/envtoxins/dioxins.html

[Guest guest]

Ari-

>My point is that fluoride was highly abundant in native diets

>and they had no problems with it

In some native diets, maybe, but it was highly variable

geographically. If you're interested in the subject of fluoride, I

recommend _The Fluoride Deception_.

-

[Guest guest]

Even if this is true, it would have been the naturally occurring calcium

flouride, not the factory byproduct known as sodium fluoride which is what

is added to water, toothpaste, etc.

At 04:44 PM 11/18/2005, you wrote:

>Ari-

>

> >My point is that fluoride was highly abundant in native diets

> >and they had no problems with it

>

>In some native diets, maybe, but it was highly variable

>geographically. If you're interested in the subject of fluoride, I

>recommend _The Fluoride Deception_.

>

>

>

>

>-

>

>

>

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[Guest guest]

-

>Even if this is true, it would have been the naturally occurring calcium

>flouride, not the factory byproduct known as sodium fluoride which is what

>is added to water, toothpaste, etc.

Actually it's not even always sodium fluoride that's added to water.

-

[Guest guest]

>Really? I'd be interested in learning more about that. Can you recommend

>any sources? (BTW I just ordered a copy of Fluoride: the Aging Factor;

>would you happen to know if it mentions anything about that?)

> >Even if this is true, it would have been the naturally occurring calcium

> >flouride, not the factory byproduct known as sodium fluoride which is what

> >is added to water, toothpaste, etc.

>

>Actually it's not even always sodium fluoride that's added to water.

>

>

>

>

>-

>

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

Canfield

Well done is better than well said.

Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and

there is none else. ~Isaiah 45:22