Re: Diet advice for obesity? was Leptin (sorry, very long)

[Guest guest]

Jo-

>If anyone has any ideas at all, we are desperate and will try anything!

>(except stomach stapling, the brochure his mum gave me about it got

>thrown in the bin before I got home)

I'll give you a much more detailed response tomorrow (said detail being

mainly requests for more specific info <g>) but one rather alarming

possibility did abruptly occur to me while skimming your post. A friend of

a friend once abruptly gained massive amounts of weight for no conceivable

reason, and it turned out to be a benign brain tumor. That's got to be one

of the least likely explanations, but it's not impossible, so it's worth

considering.

-

[Guest guest]

Jo

My 2 cents is ditch the aspartame and/or sucralose

http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/nutraswt.htm

Wanita

[Guest guest]

> Jo

>

> My 2 cents is ditch the aspartame and/or sucralose

> http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/nutraswt.htm

>

Hi Wanita

I do agree that artificial sweeteners are to be avoided. I never use

them myself. However, DH has given SO much that he likes, it is hard

for him to accept giving up something as basic as a soft drink which

he genuinely sees no harm in. I do ask him if he alternates the

cordial with plain water and he tells me yes, but I don't believe

him. Bear in mind it's taken me 3 years to get him to give up diet

coke, and 18 months to give up dairy and gluten.

The problem is, when he gives up all this food he loves, he sees no

difference in the way he feels, his health, his digestion, or

anything.

We took a few days in Germany last week, and he decided he was just

going to eat what ever took his fancy: pizza, glutenous dairy

desserts etc. He had no symptoms whatsoever. On the other hand, I

accidentally ingested a tiny amount of dairy that I didn't even

notice until I started getting symptoms a few hours later, that are

still with me! This is what keeps me on the straight and narrow - if

I didn't have the symptoms, I probably wouldn't give the stuff up

either.

Jo

[Guest guest]

Jo

Wanita Sears wrote:

> My 2 cents is ditch the aspartame and/or sucralose

> http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/nutraswt.htm

>

I would second that (or third given you have agreed as well). Many

times over the past few years I have read that the use of artificial

sweeteners can still stimulate insulin production and without insulin,

the body cannot store fat. In my own experience I would have to agree

that diet-coke was indeed doing something to the level of insulin.

Dunno about Leptin. It's a new one for me. I've read 's leptin

posts twice, but will have to read them again when I am awake, I think.

Diet-coke was a toughie for me to say goodbye to too. Now and again I

buy mineral water for the excellent bubbles.

[Guest guest]

> I do agree that artificial sweeteners are to be avoided. I never use

> them myself. However, DH has given SO much that he likes, it is hard

> for him to accept giving up something as basic as a soft drink which

> he genuinely sees no harm in. I do ask him if he alternates the

> cordial with plain water and he tells me yes, but I don't believe

> him. Bear in mind it's taken me 3 years to get him to give up diet

> coke, and 18 months to give up dairy and gluten.

>

> The problem is, when he gives up all this food he loves, he sees no

> difference in the way he feels, his health, his digestion, or

> anything.

Hi Jo,

I understand. Does seem like the chemicals are affecting his appetite.

Yo yo eating, dieting, weight loss, weight gain. For years I tried

just to lose 10-20 lbs. to get to my ideal weight for height with

similar methods. It never worked until I eliminated processed foods

which are just a step down from man made sugars. Know you or him don't

want to hear Atkins says no alcohol because it stops fat burning.

Christie does Atkins unprocessed. If he can do the coffee and tea

without sweetener, could be a transitional band aid.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

On 7/31/05, jopollack2001 <jopollack2001@...> wrote:

> I do agree that artificial sweeteners are to be avoided. I never use

> them myself. However, DH has given SO much that he likes, it is hard

> for him to accept giving up something as basic as a soft drink which

> he genuinely sees no harm in.

No harm except brain damage? I would think getting off aspartame

would be top priority.

Chris

[Guest guest]

>

> Now and again I

> > buy mineral water for the excellent bubbles.

> >

> >

>

> I'm finding that kombucha tea or the Japanese Water Crystals brew I make

satisfies that bubble-craving.. It's so refreshing and very slightly sweet

and so it satisfies the occasional sweets craving too. Matter a fact, I just

had some :-)

~Robin

[Guest guest]

Jo-

I've thought and thought and thought about how to broach this subject,

because it's quite a delicate issue, and finally I realized I should just

go ahead and lay it out flat since you asked me for advice and I therefore

have an obligation to give you the best advice I can. I think the most

likely explanation is that your husband is doing a lot of eating that he's

not letting you know about. I say that especially because of this statement --

>If he doesn't eat breakfast, he may not eat dinner either, and can go a

>good couple of days without eating more than a handful of food.

-- but also because of the gestalt of information you've given us.

I don't mean to suggest that it's completely impossible that there's some

other explanation. A brain tumor, for example, can cause exactly these

problems, including food aversions and dramatic weight gain. And aspartame

causes brain damage and as such should be avoided at all cost, so the

advice you've already gotten is certainly good... just likely insufficient.

>Then inexplicably he started to gain weight. He started getting spots,

>and he now requires a digestive enzyme every day to have normal BMs.

Spots?

>We've tried everything to stop the gain. Atkins fat fast (wow, that

>was a BIG mistake for me!),

The Atkins fat fast, unfortunately, is poorly designed -- unless he changed

it after I read it. As I read it, it was founded on mayonnaise, which is

just about the worst possible way to do it, because virtually all mayo is

made with PUFA, which suppresses the metabolism and, in excess, damages

mitochondria. A fat fast, if necessary, should be based on healthy

saturated fats like coconut oil, which actually boosts the metabolism.

>In June we identified potential

>gluten allergy, dairy allergy, peppercorn, coffee, coke and soy allergy

>(all IgG tested).

Soy also should be avoided no matter what, except perhaps for small amounts

of organic and traditionally-prepared fermented soy, as in traditional soy

sauce fermented for at least two years.

>I've finally got him

>off the Coke and the coffee (which I'd been trying to do for years).

>Since May he's been exercising 1/2 hour a day on an exercise bike.

Coke, unfortunately, is pretty much doom. It either has sugar or

aspartame. If someone absolutely positively refuses to give up Coke, I

think there's a new version sweetened with sucralose, which is still

extremely bad news but at least doesn't do brain damage like aspartame AFAIK.

As to exercise, I'm afraid the bike is mostly a waste of time. It's not

weight-bearing and it's purely aerobic. If he's going to stick to aerobic

exercise, it should be weight-bearing -- walking, stair-master, elliptical,

that sort of thing. Better would be some form of lifting to build some

muscle which will confer enduring metabolic benefits. There are bodyweight

exercises aplenty in addition to kettlebell and barbell workouts, so it's

not like a gym and/or a pile of expensive equipment is required.

>He drinks black tea

>and blackcurrant cordial (either aspartame or sucralose sweetened). He

>will eat bone broths, but won't touch fermented veg unless shop bought.

Black tea unfortunately can disturb insulin metabolism in sensitive people,

thus stimulating appetite out of all proportion. Anything with caffeine

unfortunately does that to me in the end and is generally a problem for

people who need to low-carb, though some can get away with it. And as I

mentioned, forget about aspartame. It's a disaster. Sucralose is bad too,

but the occasional indulgence probably isn't the end of the world. If you

can make this yourself, though, I'd recommend using either stevia or

saccharrine, and only as much as is absolutely necessary.

>He now has real mental issues with food. We can't talk about it. He

>can't eat anything that he has been involved in cooking or serving.

>Sometimes I'll put a meal in front of him and it just makes him feel

>sick. All this got worse as I got more into NT and making stock and

>fermenting veggies.

Much as I hate to say it, this is consistent with the theory that he's

hiding his eating from you. How or whether you approach this issue,

though, is something you'll have to think about on your own. It can be

extremely sensitive -- and for you too, not just your husband. I feel for

you both. But it's also important to remember that it's also consistent

with other possibilities, such as a tumor.

>If anyone has any ideas at all, we are desperate and will try anything!

>(except stomach stapling, the brochure his mum gave me about it got

>thrown in the bin before I got home)

I'm glad you're not considering stomach stapling, but just for in case

further desperation leads either of you to have second thoughts, forget

about it. It's an ungodly disaster. The stomach is responsible for

secreting ghrelin, a hormone that stimulates hunger -- and also is an

essential link in the chain of events that leads to growth hormone

secretion. Stapling the stomach prevents proper ghrelin release and thus

proper growth hormone release and thus causes massive health problems (fun

things like like liver failure) down the line.

-

[Guest guest]

> I'm glad you're not considering stomach stapling, but just for in case

> further desperation leads either of you to have second thoughts, forget

> about it. It's an ungodly disaster. The stomach is responsible for

> secreting ghrelin, a hormone that stimulates hunger -- and also is an

> essential link in the chain of events that leads to growth hormone

> secretion. Stapling the stomach prevents proper ghrelin release and

> thus

> proper growth hormone release and thus causes massive health problems

> (fun

> things like like liver failure) down the line.

All three people I know who've had it done, it was a disaster. Even

though one of them thinks it is the best thing since sliced bread.

irony intended. Never mind she still has a drain a year later. Good

thing she's a nurse.

And I hate to say it, Jo, but as a former sneak eater myself I think

may be on to something. There's not much you can do for him

except not enable him. And that's a whole other kettle of fish.

Lynn S.

------

Lynn Siprelle * web developer, writer, mama, fiber junky

http://www.siprelle.com * http://www.thenewhomemaker.com

http://www.deanspeaksforme.com * http://www.knitting911.net

[Guest guest]

Hi

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

--- In , Idol <Idol@c...>

wrote:

I think the most

> likely explanation is that your husband is doing a lot of eating

that he's

> not letting you know about. I say that especially because of this

statement --

Yes, I agree. I have asked him and he's denied it. Then one day

during a tearful (for me) heart to heart about the consequences of

his weight, he did admit to secret eating - but not much. He refused

to answer much on how long he's done it, how often he does it etc.

He did say it was weeks since he last did it. This whole thing

upsets him so much it's hard to get more out of him, but I think this

may be a problem. However, I haven't ruled out EVERYTHING yet, so

before I start the pressure on the secret eating, I'm going to put

pressure on going to the docs, stopping aspartame, etc.

> >Then inexplicably he started to gain weight. He started getting

spots,

> >and he now requires a digestive enzyme every day to have normal

BMs.

> Spots?

Yeah, a few littluns on his face, normally on his forhead - he never

used to get any at all. But he gets loads on his back, which are

often in-growing hairs.

> >We've tried everything to stop the gain. Atkins fat fast (wow,

that

> >was a BIG mistake for me!),

> Soy also should be avoided no matter what, except perhaps for small

amounts

> of organic and traditionally-prepared fermented soy, as in

traditional soy

> sauce fermented for at least two years.

We don't eat anything made with soy anyway - haven't done for years.

It's not hard to avoid in the UK.

> As to exercise, I'm afraid the bike is mostly a waste of time.

It's not

> weight-bearing and it's purely aerobic. If he's going to stick to

aerobic

> exercise, it should be weight-bearing -- walking, stair-master,

elliptical,

> that sort of thing. Better would be some form of lifting to build

some

> muscle which will confer enduring metabolic benefits. There are

bodyweight

> exercises aplenty in addition to kettlebell and barbell workouts,

so it's

> not like a gym and/or a pile of expensive equipment is required.

I hadn't thought of this. I'd like him to continue with the aerobic

exercise as well though, as he is very unfit. He has problems with

his feet and ankles (unsurprisingly) so can't walk for more than a

short distance without a lot of pain.

> Much as I hate to say it, this is consistent with the theory that

he's

> hiding his eating from you. How or whether you approach this

issue,

> though, is something you'll have to think about on your own. It

can be

> extremely sensitive -- and for you too, not just your husband. I

feel for

> you both. But it's also important to remember that it's also

consistent

> with other possibilities, such as a tumor.

It's a real dilemma - it is very hard to get the truth out of him.

Thing is, the more he gives up the more he will be driven to secretly

eat McDs or Burger King or whatever. If he has to give up fruit

squash, tea, and practically everything else, then he's left with

just water to drink. He'll be miserable (particularly as I said he

shouldn't be drinking 4L of fizzy water a day but try to cut down on

the bubbles!)

So, I think the next steps are:

1) Encourage more exercise. Perhaps getting some lifing equipment

for Xmas.

2) Visit the dr - address the sleep apnoea, have some tests to

eliminate pituitary and brain tumour, assess hormone levels, liver

function etc.

3) Get him off the aspartame. This will be the hardest. I might

have to get into juicing fresh fruit, which he dilutes with water,

but that doesn't fit in well with low carbing. Also, I can't face

doing this for him as well as ALL the cooking, food prep, shopping

etc that I do for us both, all by myself (esp as I have applied for a

new job which would take me travelling around Europe for 50% of my

time)

4) Further reduce stress - not sure how. There's very little leisure

activity that he will agree to participate in - mostly he's put off

by something to do with his weight.

5) The hardest - identify if he is eating secretly. Get info, get

help if necessary for him to stop.

Thanks again for your help - I really appreciate it.

Jo

[Guest guest]

Jo-

>Yeah, a few littluns on his face, normally on his forhead - he never

>used to get any at all. But he gets loads on his back, which are

>often in-growing hairs.

Oh, I see -- what we call pimples here in the US? That can be a B5

(pantethine, really) deficiency. Sometimes it's apparently the result of a

surplus of iodine, which is why some people warn sufferers away from liver,

but interestingly, I find that cooking liver gives me breakouts but raw

liver in abundance doesn't. Pantethine supplementation might be worth

considering, though.

>It's a real dilemma - it is very hard to get the truth out of him.

>Thing is, the more he gives up the more he will be driven to secretly

>eat McDs or Burger King or whatever. If he has to give up fruit

>squash, tea, and practically everything else, then he's left with

>just water to drink. He'll be miserable (particularly as I said he

>shouldn't be drinking 4L of fizzy water a day but try to cut down on

>the bubbles!)

See, this is the thing. And this gets much more into marriage counseling

and just basic psychology and human nature than nutrition, and I'm

reluctant to offend or step on toes... but... Fundamentally, it has to be

his decision to get healthy. If he really wants to, he will. If, deep

down, he doesn't want it enough, no amount of pressure from you is going to

help. It'll just make things worse by driving a wedge between you, pushing

him to eat secretly if he wants to, etc.

But that said, anyone who really wants to become healthy but also has blood

sugar problems faces a whole separate problem -- biochemistry. You can

want to eat right with all of your heart, but when your blood chemistry

goes wonky, it won't matter. I speak from bitter experience, and this is

fairly widely acknowledged in the field too. The way to fight _that_

problem is to preempt it by eating properly and incorporating enough

saturated fat into meals to offer satiety. I have minimal problems with

willpower nowadays because I understand that fighting it as a battle of

will is basically a doomed battle, so I just make sure to eat in such a way

that I'm not tempted. But indulgences feed indulgences, even when the

initial indulgence seems minor and wholly innocuous. Indulge in some nuts,

for example, and before you know it my system has destabilized and I start

having to fight cravings. It can take a few days to get back on an even

keel after even a minor lapse like that. Everyone's going to have

different weak points, though of course refined carbs are pretty much

universal among people with metabolic troubles, so part of the battle is

figuring out what works for you. But the only way this is going to help

your husband is if he decides for himself that he really truly wants to get

his health under control, and that part simply can't come from

outside. You can argue and fight and cry and berate all you want, but it

won't do anything but make things worse. I'm very sorry to put it that

way, but that's what bitter experience has taught me.

>2) Visit the dr - address the sleep apnoea, have some tests to

>eliminate pituitary and brain tumour, assess hormone levels, liver

>function etc.

If you're looking for a way to kind of scare the issue to the surface,

that's a viable path to choose, particularly because a brain tumor is a

legitimate if unlikely concern -- and it's damn scary. I guess if you

start harping on stuff like that, he might be willing to come clean (if

there's anything to come clean about) just to stop you worrying. But it's

not likely to alter the fundamentals unless it happens to be just enough to

tip the balance.

>Also, I can't face

>doing this for him as well as ALL the cooking, food prep, shopping

>etc that I do for us both, all by myself (esp as I have applied for a

>new job which would take me travelling around Europe for 50% of my

>time)

Yeah, that's the thing, isn't it. At some point it might just be more

harmonious to give up. Whether that's the correct course of action in the

long term isn't for me to say, of course, but it's something to think

about. I know -- again from personal experience -- how strong the urge can

be to " help " loved ones, but they have to first want to be helped.

Hope this helps (and apologies for the irony of that statement).

-

[Guest guest]

Jo,

I'm fat and fighting to try to find the best way for me to eat. So

is my partner. We both have sleep apnea (as a result of being fat)

and wear the continuous positive air pressure (CPAP) masks to

sleep. It maks a huge difference. Sleep apnea, besides keeping

your partner up all night waiting for you to start breathing again,

can give you a heart attack. The first night I thought my partner

had died - sleeping so very still and silent!

Once there really is oxygen getting to the whole system all night

long and the restoration of REM sleep, then you might find that he

can even consider such intimate changes to his eating habits.

I'd put that one on the top of the list.

Connie

> I think the most

> > likely explanation is that your husband is doing a lot of eating

> that he's

> > not letting you know about. I say that especially because of

this

> statement --

>

> Yes, I agree. I have asked him and he's denied it. Then one day

> during a tearful (for me) heart to heart about the consequences of

> his weight, he did admit to secret eating - but not much. He

refused

> to answer much on how long he's done it, how often he does it

etc.

> He did say it was weeks since he last did it. This whole thing

> upsets him so much it's hard to get more out of him, but I think

this

> may be a problem. However, I haven't ruled out EVERYTHING yet, so

> before I start the pressure on the secret eating, I'm going to put

> pressure on going to the docs, stopping aspartame, etc.

>

>

> > >Then inexplicably he started to gain weight. He started getting

> spots,

> > >and he now requires a digestive enzyme every day to have normal

> BMs.

>

> > Spots?

>

> Yeah, a few littluns on his face, normally on his forhead - he

never

> used to get any at all. But he gets loads on his back, which are

> often in-growing hairs.

>

> > >We've tried everything to stop the gain. Atkins fat fast (wow,

> that

> > >was a BIG mistake for me!),

>

> > Soy also should be avoided no matter what, except perhaps for

small

> amounts

> > of organic and traditionally-prepared fermented soy, as in

> traditional soy

> > sauce fermented for at least two years.

>

> We don't eat anything made with soy anyway - haven't done for

years.

> It's not hard to avoid in the UK.

>

>

> > As to exercise, I'm afraid the bike is mostly a waste of time.

> It's not

> > weight-bearing and it's purely aerobic. If he's going to stick

to

> aerobic

> > exercise, it should be weight-bearing -- walking, stair-master,

> elliptical,

> > that sort of thing. Better would be some form of lifting to

build

> some

> > muscle which will confer enduring metabolic benefits. There are

> bodyweight

> > exercises aplenty in addition to kettlebell and barbell

workouts,

> so it's

> > not like a gym and/or a pile of expensive equipment is required.

>

> I hadn't thought of this. I'd like him to continue with the

aerobic

> exercise as well though, as he is very unfit. He has problems

with

> his feet and ankles (unsurprisingly) so can't walk for more than a

> short distance without a lot of pain.

>

> > Much as I hate to say it, this is consistent with the theory

that

> he's

> > hiding his eating from you. How or whether you approach this

> issue,

> > though, is something you'll have to think about on your own. It

> can be

> > extremely sensitive -- and for you too, not just your husband.

I

> feel for

> > you both. But it's also important to remember that it's also

> consistent

> > with other possibilities, such as a tumor.

>

> It's a real dilemma - it is very hard to get the truth out of

him.

> Thing is, the more he gives up the more he will be driven to

secretly

> eat McDs or Burger King or whatever. If he has to give up fruit

> squash, tea, and practically everything else, then he's left with

> just water to drink. He'll be miserable (particularly as I said

he

> shouldn't be drinking 4L of fizzy water a day but try to cut down

on

> the bubbles!)

>

> So, I think the next steps are:

> 1) Encourage more exercise. Perhaps getting some lifing equipment

> for Xmas.

>

> 2) Visit the dr - address the sleep apnoea, have some tests to

> eliminate pituitary and brain tumour, assess hormone levels, liver

> function etc.

>

> 3) Get him off the aspartame. This will be the hardest. I might

> have to get into juicing fresh fruit, which he dilutes with water,

> but that doesn't fit in well with low carbing. Also, I can't face

> doing this for him as well as ALL the cooking, food prep, shopping

> etc that I do for us both, all by myself (esp as I have applied

for a

> new job which would take me travelling around Europe for 50% of my

> time)

>

> 4) Further reduce stress - not sure how. There's very little

leisure

> activity that he will agree to participate in - mostly he's put

off

> by something to do with his weight.

>

> 5) The hardest - identify if he is eating secretly. Get info, get

> help if necessary for him to stop.

>

> Thanks again for your help - I really appreciate it.

>

> Jo

[Guest guest]

Jo-

>I hadn't thought of this. I'd like him to continue with the aerobic

>exercise as well though, as he is very unfit.

One thing I forgot to mention is that since fat-burning doesn't begin

during aerobic exercise until a _minimum_ of 20 minutes, 30 minutes a day

on a bike is pretty useless. All else being equal, your husband would

accomplish a lot more if he did 1 hour every other day, for example,

keeping the total amount of exercise constant but lumping it together into

fewer workouts. And I definitely recommend weight-lifting, but you don't

even need equipment. Pick up a copy of Pavel Tsatsouline's _The Naked

Warrior_ and start with that.

-

[Guest guest]

Is he your patient or your boyfriend? Addiction is addiction is addiction.

If he is doing this to please you or bc of pressure from you he will NEVER,

I repeat, NEVER be successful. Only he can make that call and maybe now is

not the time for him. I think you need to ask yourself if you want to accept

someone with a life-threatening addiction as he is, or ponder your next

move. Asking someone about their binge-eating is like asking someone the

particulars about how and when and how much they masturbate -- your unlikely

to get a truthful answer. Add to that that binge eating (unlike masturbation

i hope!) is attached to shiploads of shame, guilt and every other nasty

feeling you can possibly imagine. Also, for changes in diet to be

successful, they must be done gradually. The policies on this board are too

extreme for the average person, especially the average obese person. They

will most certainly drive an overeater to binge if brought on all at once.

Elaine

> It's a real dilemma - it is very hard to get the truth out of him.

> Thing is, the more he gives up the more he will be driven to secretly

> eat McDs or Burger King or whatever. If he has to give up fruit

> squash, tea, and practically everything else, then he's left with

> just water to drink. He'll be miserable (particularly as I said he

> shouldn't be drinking 4L of fizzy water a day but try to cut down on

>

[Guest guest]

--- In , Idol <Idol@c...>

wrote:

> Oh, I see -- what we call pimples here in the US?

hehe! I didn't know you didn't use the word " spot " in the US!

>Pantethine supplementation might be worth

> considering, though.

>

He has started taking a multivitamin which incl B5.

> See, this is the thing. And this gets much more into marriage

counseling

> and just basic psychology and human nature than nutrition, and I'm

> reluctant to offend or step on toes... but... Fundamentally, it

has to be

> his decision to get healthy. If he really wants to, he will. If,

deep

> down, he doesn't want it enough, no amount of pressure from you is

going to

> help. It'll just make things worse by driving a wedge between you,

pushing

> him to eat secretly if he wants to, etc.

You're absolutely right, and I do think this is what's happened. But

in a marriage, food intake is a combined thing. You have to shop for

meals and such like for both of you. And he has begged me for help.

When I've taken a stand and said I think he should eat what he wants

and prepare it himself, he felt like I'd given up helping him and

therefore he wondered if I still loved him. Yes, I know, the whole

guilt thing applies here. It's a viscious circle though. I

don't " tell " him what to do or eat, but I suggest that because of

whatever problem with whichever food/drink/additive etc he should

consider not eating it and do his own research (this worked once when

the dentist said he needed a root canal, and I said he should

research potential health problems first). I have suggested giving

up aspartame/sucralose before - he knows full well why I don't eat

it.

> Indulge in some nuts,

> for example, and before you know it my system has destabilized and

I start

> having to fight cravings. It can take a few days to get back on an

even

> keel after even a minor lapse like that.

I am exactly the same - going for a take-away curry takes me a week

at least to get over, even though it doesn't actually contain any

nasties and I can get it casein free and gluten free and low carb.

DH just doesn't have the awareness of how foods affect him like I

do. EG as I'm slim, if I put on a couple of pounds of bloating

weight, I can tell immediately. However, DH could put on a dozen

pounds and be none the wiser.

>I know -- again from personal experience -- how strong the urge can

> be to " help " loved ones, but they have to first want to be helped.

He says he wants to be helped, but his inability to help himself in

this single area tells me otherwise. I have to find a way to break

down that wall.

I have to say though that this attitude to food is so unlike him - he

is such a strong person - he is my rock, he is so secure and calm and

supportive of me and helps me through my depression and ill health.

He is very driven and motivated in his business (he is self-

employed). This whole food thing really surprises me as I cannot

marry up his attitude with what I know of the rest of his life.

Thanks once again for your help - I've got to consider very carefully

how I proceed.

Jo

[Guest guest]

--- In , " Connie Hampton " <connie@h...>

wrote:

> Once there really is oxygen getting to the whole system all night

> long and the restoration of REM sleep, then you might find that he

> can even consider such intimate changes to his eating habits.

>

Thanks Connie, I will do. I have to ensure I get to sleep first, as I

just can't do it when his sleep apnoea starts!

Jo

[Guest guest]

Hi Elaine

I read your personal note to me before this - thanks for letting me

know!

> Is he your patient or your boyfriend? Addiction is addiction is

addiction.

> If he is doing this to please you or bc of pressure from you he

will NEVER,

> I repeat, NEVER be successful.

Sometimes he does seem like a patient, and I absolutely don't want

that.

Also, for changes in diet to be

> successful, they must be done gradually. The policies on this board

are too

> extreme for the average person, especially the average obese

person. They

> will most certainly drive an overeater to binge if brought on all

at once.

Don't worry about that - I made the changes gradually myself, and for

him it was several years!

Thanks

Jo

[Guest guest]

>I have to say though that this attitude to food is so unlike him - he

>is such a strong person - he is my rock, he is so secure and calm and

>supportive of me and helps me through my depression and ill health.

>He is very driven and motivated in his business (he is self-

>employed). This whole food thing really surprises me as I cannot

>marry up his attitude with what I know of the rest of his life.

>

>Thanks once again for your help - I've got to consider very carefully

>how I proceed.

>

>Jo

There was some interesting research done on obese people

about moods. Seems that the fat itself tends to mitigate moodswings ...

i.e. the stereotype of the " fat happy Santa " has some basis

in reality. The scientists were thinking that fat cells absorb the

toxins/chemicals/hormones involved so the person stays

more mellow than they would otherwise. Which likely ALSO

puts up a block against being skinnier ... the fat might be a self-defense

strategy.

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

> There was some interesting research done on obese people

> about moods. Seems that the fat itself tends to mitigate

moodswings ...

> i.e. the stereotype of the " fat happy Santa " has some basis

> in reality. The scientists were thinking that fat cells absorb the

> toxins/chemicals/hormones involved so the person stays

> more mellow than they would otherwise. Which likely ALSO

> puts up a block against being skinnier ... the fat might be a self-

defense

> strategy.

Heidi

It's an interesting theory, but he is moodier now than he was when he

was thinner. (My moods are far improved though, so we've kind of

reversed in this respect).

For some reason, your post has just reminded me of something he said

a couple of years ago. IIRC, he said that for him, his weight is a

method of being in control. I was surprised at this, as he loved

being thinner and felt so good about himself (even though after he

lost 140lbs, he was still obese) and was so proud of himself. He has

since been unable to control the weight gain. What ever the reasons,

he has real issues with food and weight, and appears to be using the

weight to satisfy something that isn't met when he's dieting.

I don't know what came first: using the purposeful weight gain as a

defence against dietary failure, or dietary failure and then deciding

to gain weight purpose to hide the failure.

I just don't know what to do really. How do I give him permission to

eat what he wants? He can have the junk food in the house if he

wants, but when I prepare meals for both of us, he gets good, healthy

food.

Jo

[Guest guest]

Jo-

>He has started taking a multivitamin which incl B5.

Strictly talking about the acne issue, that won't be enough. Some people

recommend extremely high doses of B5 for acne, and though I don't believe

you need nearly enough if you're taking it as pantethine, the co-enzyme

form, there's still not going to be enough in a B complex, let alone a

multi. A couple _grams_ of pantethine might be required every day.

>You're absolutely right, and I do think this is what's happened. But

>in a marriage, food intake is a combined thing. You have to shop for

>meals and such like for both of you.

You wouldn't know it from my home... <g> But I know what you mean, and

it's certainly true in almost all cases.

>And he has begged me for help.

>When I've taken a stand and said I think he should eat what he wants

>and prepare it himself, he felt like I'd given up helping him and

>therefore he wondered if I still loved him.

Wow, umm, that's getting into an area I don't feel comfortable with. I'll

just say that IMO you should explain that you love him but that every

individual has to decide for him or herself whether to do something major

like truly pursue good health. You can't make that choice for him. He has

to make it -- and he has to keep making it every day. He can't rely on you

to live his life for him. You can certainly help him if he does make that

choice, but he has to make it first.

And as reluctant as I am to say this, I think nagging him and making some

food for him and so on while somewhere, deep down, realizing that

something's not right, is just winding up being a form of enabling, because

you're ignoring the elephant in the room -- if in fact he is hiding his

eating (and I'm certainly not saying that's established fact even though it

seems like the likeliest explanation) by not getting that out in the open,

you're letting him get away with it. I'm not saying you're supposed to be

an authority figure and he's breaking your rules, I'm just saying that

you're letting him pull the wool over your eyes. If that's what's actually

going on.

Actually, one way to go from here would be to decide to just let him do

what he wants without stressing over it so much. Get everything out in the

open and tell him he can eat whatever he wants in front of you without any

secrecy, and if at some point he wants to make a change you'll be there for

him, but if he doesn't, you'll be there for him too. I'm not saying you're

wrong to want to push him to work on his health, because as your husband I

think he has a reasonable obligation to not die on you prematurely or

destroy your life with his medical problems, but at the same time he has a

right to do what he wants, and from a purely pragmatic perspective you're

not going to accomplish anything positive by trying to force him to change

if he doesn't truly want to.

One thing that might be worth trying, though, is to ask if he'll agree to

try a genuinely ketogenic diet for, say, one week. Don't worry especially

about getting lots of vegetables down the hatch, just make sure he eats

adequate protein and lots and lots of saturated fat -- and no refined

carbs, and basically no sugar of any kind for a week. IOW essentially the

Atkins induction phase, but NN-style. If his metabolism changes enough and

he's able to get the immediacy of his addiction behind him, he might be a

lot more amenable to making big decisions.

>I am exactly the same - going for a take-away curry takes me a week

>at least to get over, even though it doesn't actually contain any

>nasties and I can get it casein free and gluten free and low carb.

Even a low-carb curry does that to you? Do you have any idea why? I've

made my own curries (with variable and generally indifferent success) and

haven't had that problem, but when I've gotten some goat curry at a

wonderful local place here, even though the proprietor assures me that

there's no starch or sugar in it whatsoever, it winds up destabilizing me a

bit for a few days. I've never actually monitored my weight after

indulging, but I'm sure it inches up for awhile, which is why I haven't had

any in at least a year and don't intend to. I just don't understand why

it's a problem, unless I'm being lied to about the ingredients.

>DH just doesn't have the awareness of how foods affect him like I

>do. EG as I'm slim, if I put on a couple of pounds of bloating

>weight, I can tell immediately. However, DH could put on a dozen

>pounds and be none the wiser.

Well, he could always weigh and even measure himself regularly, but while

that might encourage him to make the right choices, it'll still come down

to being his decision.

>This whole food thing really surprises me as I cannot

>marry up his attitude with what I know of the rest of his life.

It's an addiction. Trust me -- I speak from experience. And addictions

are enormously powerful and can radically change people's personalities,

because serving the addiction becomes the most important thing in the

world. The main difference is that the stigma attached to food addictions

is very different from those attached to drugs and the like, because most

people neither understand nor believe that one can be addicted to carbs or

even other foods. In fact, people recovering from addictions to drugs and

cigarettes and the like generally react very angrily to the idea that food

addictions should be granted comparable status, but otherwise you could

probably learn a lot from the right addiction literature. I think someone

suggested Al-Anon, and there's really something to that, though I think

their raison d'etre is helping friends and family of alcoholics, not drug

or addicts.

-

[Guest guest]

and Jo,

>>I am exactly the same - going for a take-away curry takes me a week

>>at least to get over, even though it doesn't actually contain any

>>nasties and I can get it casein free and gluten free and low carb.

>>

>>

>Even a low-carb curry does that to you? Do you have any idea why? I've

>made my own curries (with variable and generally indifferent success) and

>haven't had that problem, but when I've gotten some goat curry at a

>wonderful local place here, even though the proprietor assures me that

>there's no starch or sugar in it whatsoever, it winds up destabilizing me a

>bit for a few days. I've never actually monitored my weight after

>indulging, but I'm sure it inches up for awhile, which is why I haven't had

>any in at least a year and don't intend to. I just don't understand why

>it's a problem, unless I'm being lied to about the ingredients.

>

Just a stab at possibilities - sometimes ground spices have starches

mixed in them to keep them from caking. It might cause problems for

someone very sensitive to carbs, especially considering some curries can

have 1/4 cup of spices in them.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

>I just don't know what to do really. How do I give him permission to

>eat what he wants? He can have the junk food in the house if he

>wants, but when I prepare meals for both of us, he gets good, healthy

>food.

>

>Jo

I don't know either. I try to " steer " our house toward good food,

and since I do practically ALL the shopping and cooking I have

a lot of power (tho it took me ages to discover how much power

the " cook " really has. When a person has that much of a weight problem

though, just " eating good " probably isn't going to solve it.

The cook at our local GF restaurant, btw, had a major major weight

problem. She turned out to be celiac, and went GF (now CF too I think)

and does a low carb diet (Atkins) to boot. She's cooking all day, serving great

food and GF cakes, and is maintaining her slimmer weight (she's not

skinny at this point, but a lot better). Her take, and a lot of the really

fat people in the celiac group, is that the weight has to do with food

allergies. She was talking about all the OTHER allergens besides

wheat that are issues, including the dairy and eggs that are so

common on Atkins.

I forget if you've had him allergy tested ... the

York saliva test is easy, and with all this talk about IgG being a pretty

good indicator for IgA that would be one route. It's a lot easier

to ditch allergens than it is to restrict food in general.

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Deanna-

>Just a stab at possibilities - sometimes ground spices have starches

>mixed in them to keep them from caking. It might cause problems for

>someone very sensitive to carbs, especially considering some curries can

>have 1/4 cup of spices in them.

<slapping my forehead REALLY hard>

-

[Guest guest]

Hi

Everything you write is making a great deal of sense - I'm now pretty

convinced that this is secret eating, not brain tumour. I've been

away for a night, and he didn't eat dinner the night I left (Weds)

and when I came back this evening, I checked the fridge (without him

noticing) and there's nothing missing that was there before I left.

Therefore, he hasn't eaten food from the house. And as he's not

starving there's really only 1 explanation.

--- In , Idol <Idol@c...>

wrote:

>I'm not saying you're

> wrong to want to push him to work on his health, because as your

husband I

> think he has a reasonable obligation to not die on you prematurely

or

> destroy your life with his medical problems,

Glad I'm not the only one who thinks that! lol!

> One thing that might be worth trying, though, is to ask if he'll

agree to

> try a genuinely ketogenic diet for, say, one week. Don't worry

especially

> about getting lots of vegetables down the hatch, just make sure he

eats

> adequate protein and lots and lots of saturated fat -- and no

refined

> carbs, and basically no sugar of any kind for a week. IOW

essentially the

> Atkins induction phase, but NN-style.

We've done this a couple or 3 times since he started gaining weight.

He stuck to it for a couple of weeks, and did lose weight (back

before he got too heavy for the scales) then it seemed to stop

working for him. Now I think we know why! When it stopped working

he also went back to ordinary low carb in front of me. Then just

carried on gaining.

> >I am exactly the same - going for a take-away curry takes me a week

> >at least to get over, even though it doesn't actually contain any

> >nasties and I can get it casein free and gluten free and low carb.

>

> Even a low-carb curry does that to you? Do you have any idea why?

It is made with ghee, so I've wondered if that's the problem. I've

never made curry at home, so don't have a control test to use. I

even gain weight if all I have is a small portion of saag bhaji

(curried spinach) so it's not to do with the volume. The bhaji is

literally just spinach, ghee, and herbs and spices - there's no sauce

of any kind, no yoghurt marinade etc. It's a pity, cos I love curry!

Thanks again

Jo

[Guest guest]

> Just a stab at possibilities - sometimes ground spices have starches

> mixed in them to keep them from caking. It might cause problems for

> someone very sensitive to carbs, especially considering some curries

can

> have 1/4 cup of spices in them.

Hi Deanna

There could be a whole host of things in the curry that the staff don't

know about. Curry houses abound in most UK towns and cities, and

generally use very cheap ingredients. I doubt anyone much cares about

exactly what's in the ingredients, except me.

I once asked if the mushroom pakora had any wheat flour or gluten, and

was told no, just gram flour. 24 hours later, I had a definite wheat

reaction to that meal!!!

Jo