Guest guest Posted July 31, 2005 Report Share Posted July 31, 2005 On 7/31/05, <slethnobotanist@...> wrote: > Even so, why couldn't microorganisms get into the interior of the > bread especially since the bread contains moisture? Is the surface of > baked bread tightly sealed such that no organisms can get inside? I > don't know how the exact process works so I'm just thinking out loud. > Maybe could shed some light on the subject. I don't know, but generally " contamination " is on the outside. With meat for example, which is why " they " say to cook hamburger thoroughly. Still, I've been noticing more and more that these " rules " about what is destroyed at what heat aren't rules at all. There are enzymes that have differing resistances to heat, and microorganisms that can even withstand heat at burning temperatures (although I don't think you'd find them in bread, more like a geyser or something). So I have no idea, but I would guess that if there was fermentation on the inside it would more likely be from microorganisms that survived the heat than invading species. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 2005 Report Share Posted July 31, 2005 On 7/31/05, Deb Gully <deb.kiwi@...> wrote: > I'm not sure that it is only 2 mutations that are a problem. A while > back, I was trying to get my mind round all the different genes that > possibly had a gluten connection, and also their connections with > autoimmune diseases. So I felt compelled to draw up a chart (which > won't surprise anyone who knows me IRL) along with links to where I > found the info. Trouble is, I don't have the scientific background to > fully understand and evaluate all the sources. That would be interesting, although a lot more would need to be known than that there was a mere association to demonstrate causality. The DQ2 and 8 alleles are apparently the only ones out of the HLA-DQ genes that will bind to gliaden peptides well. I'm sure there are lots of other genes that correlate with gluten problems, but I meant that out of the HLA-DQ genes apparently only 2 and 8 bind to gliaden. Someone, I think Wanita, posted an excerpt recently from someone who found some of the gluten intolerants who did not have digestive issues but had neurological issues to have HLA-DQ1, but I don't think it's been demonstrated to have affinity with gliaden peptides. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 2005 Report Share Posted July 31, 2005 On 7/31/05, Deb Gully <deb.kiwi@...> wrote: > Sorry, misunderstood that. But still would be interested in anyone's > comments on the doc, which is now in the files section. It only looks > at HLA genes that appear to have a pre-disposition to (or appear to > correlate to), BTW, not those in any other " families " . Hi Deb, Very interesting, even tantallizing, although it would be a major research project to try to make good sense of it all, so I can't get drawn in to deep, as I have a couple projects needing finishing already... Let us know if you clear it all up! :-) Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 2005 Report Share Posted July 31, 2005 > Bravo! Very good for you on your accomplishments. It's funny how > sirsasana progress can mean so much to us. > Deanna, it was a handstand, not sirsasana. B. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 2005 Report Share Posted July 31, 2005 On 7/31/05, Suze Fisher <s.fisher22@...> wrote: > Why would you develop a reaction if you don't have the HLA binding sites? Well if the proteins are leaking into your blood stream undigested, for example, I believe you would develop some sort of allergy to that food, regardless of what it is. I thought this was well-established and the reason that leaky gut led to intolerances of nearly everything. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 2005 Report Share Posted July 31, 2005 > ...apparently gluten sensitivity is not so uncommon in > the Middle East either, so it's not just from wheat shipped in by > Western countries, as far as I know. I do think, at least in some > cases, it has something to do with the sheer amount of gluten in > modern breeds of wheat. > Suze Fisher A side point: Is gluten sensitivity more common in the Middle East than in other areas or is that gluten sensitivity is just more " in the radar " there? For example, Italy is becoming known for having some of the highest percentages of people with gluten-intolerance and yet it is firmly within the so-called " Fertile Crescent " where grains first appeared and so people have had a bit longer to adapt. I'm guessing that Italy has a " higher percentage of celiacs " simply because they're the only country in the world to routinely test for it -- kind of a Catch 22 statistic... " In Italy, where celiac disease is common, all children are screened by age 6 so that even asymptomatic disease is caught early. In addition, Italians of any age are tested for the disease as soon as they show symptoms. As a result of this vigilance, the time between when symptoms begin and the disease is diagnosed is usually only 2 to 3 weeks. In the United States, the time between the first symptoms and diagnosis averages about 10 years. " http://www.keepkidshealthy.com/welcome/conditions/celiac_disease.html ~Robin Ann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 2005 Report Share Posted July 31, 2005 > > I don't know Bob, but apparently gluten sensitivity is not so uncommon in > the Middle East either, so it's not just from wheat shipped in by Western > countries, as far as I know. I do think, at least in some cases, it has > something to do with the sheer amount of gluten in modern breeds of wheat. > > Hmmm that's a good point. Have you ever heard of gluten insensitivity being associated with nearsightedness? Wild idea, but the article from the neurology journal was very interesting and mentioned peripheral numbness etc; maybe this could also affect vision (IMO). In France they have a different type wheat for the bread, and almost none of the kids are nearsighted, even with lots of homework and no sports at school (but they play ping-pong which is good). And our French neighbor's 8 yr. old has just gotten glasses! I'm nearsighted and my parents weren't. Bob ps I'm curious about starting a chapter here (Peoria). I assume there is info on the web site but how is it working out for you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2005 Report Share Posted August 1, 2005 The other piece to remember when talking about genes is that no human is 100% of any particular descent. We are a very mixed species and more similar than different. We travel widely and leave our genes behind us frequently (perhaps less frequently since the invention of birth control, but in greater numbers). The Fertile Crescent is also the " Cross roads of the world " in that the Silk route went through there. The more anthropology and history we learn and the more we value non-western history, the more we have the details of " mixing " . Now that said, I do agree that we are just in the beginning of looking at our genes, their distribution, how they code for proteins and when they might do so. Until most countries screen for GI like Italy, we are just not going to have valid data. Connie > > ...apparently gluten sensitivity is not so uncommon in > > the Middle East either, so it's not just from wheat shipped in by > > Western countries, as far as I know. I do think, at least in some > > cases, it has something to do with the sheer amount of gluten in > > modern breeds of wheat. > > Suze Fisher > > A side point: Is gluten sensitivity more common in the Middle East > than in other areas or is that gluten sensitivity is just more " in > the radar " there? > > For example, Italy is becoming known for having some of the highest > percentages of people with gluten-intolerance and yet it is firmly > within the so-called " Fertile Crescent " where grains first appeared > and so people have had a bit longer to adapt. I'm guessing that > Italy has a " higher percentage of celiacs " simply because they're > the only country in the world to routinely test for it -- kind of a > Catch 22 statistic... > > " In Italy, where celiac disease is common, all children are screened > by age 6 so that even asymptomatic disease is caught early. In > addition, Italians of any age are tested for the disease as soon as > they show symptoms. As a result of this vigilance, the time between > when symptoms begin and the disease is diagnosed is usually only 2 > to 3 weeks. In the United States, the time between the first > symptoms and diagnosis averages about 10 years. " > > http://www.keepkidshealthy.com/welcome/conditions/celiac_disease.html > > ~Robin Ann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2005 Report Share Posted August 2, 2005 On 8/2/05, Suze Fisher <s.fisher22@...> wrote: > >-----Original Message----- > >From: > >[mailto: ]On Behalf Of Masterjohn > > > > > >> Why would you develop a reaction if you don't have the HLA binding > sites? > > > >Well if the proteins are leaking into your blood stream undigested, > >for example, I believe you would develop some sort of allergy to that > >food, regardless of what it is. I thought this was well-established > >and the reason that leaky gut led to intolerances of nearly > >everything. > > Yes,, I believe it is. But I was specifically thinking of IgA reactions to > gluten. My understanding is that they either exclusively or primarily take > place IN the gut before reaching the blood stream. Maybe the blood stream > reactions caused by leaky gut are more IgG or IgE? I'm just not clear on > how > one could have an IgA reaction to gluten proteins without having the > binding > sites of the HLA genes that present the foreign protein to T cells? Perhaps > I just don't understand how this works well enough. I probably understand it even less, but that's what I *said* initially. I said that I think Heidi has said you can become gluten intolerant without the genes, but that you would get a different kind of reaction with a different Igwhatever. I used the phrase " Igwhatevers " because I can't remember the difference between 'em all! Chris Gluten ignoramous, for real Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2005 Report Share Posted August 3, 2005 > Cooking would more or less sterilize the bread, but it wouldn't remain > sterile for long. After all, leave bread out, and it goes moldy. So > in that two-weeks, there would definitely be fermenting action going > on, and although it might be somewhat left to chance, apecific > microorganisms are attracted to specific substrates, and I'm pretty > sure that what will come in to invade a piece of a particular bread is > pretty predictable. Hey, here's something weird, then: the mad baker of Hollywood uses old loaves of bread as displays on his table, and that is one thing he kept pointing out to me--more like, banging me over the head with--that, " this loaf of rye is four months old! " and still, it was soft and totally edible. I actually wanted to buy that loaf but he wouldn't let me. B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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