Re: supplements for marathon training

[Guest guest]

-

>Bottom line is that I know he would be willing to try my supplement

>recommendations and if i can help in that way, i would like to. I

>have brought up the subject of nutrition w/ him, but he is not

>willing to change his diet because his foods/drinks are

>his " rewards " for all of his hard work to prepare for this.

It's possible to make really delicious " reward " -type foods that are

nutritionally superior to whatever crap he's eating, but I'm sure you

already know that. What you might try, if you have the time and the

wherewithal, is to just go ahead and make some healthy, tasty foods for

him. Maybe if he actually experiences eating well, he might be more

willing to change his tune.

Short of that, it's not possible to correct a bad diet with supplements,

but he could try some carnitine. The best forms are acetyl l-carnitine and

propionyl l-carnitine, NOT plain l-carnitine, which isn't especially

well-absorbed or utilized. For physical activity purposes, propionyl

appears to be superior to acetyl, and it's also easier on the gut for in

case that's an issue. (I've gotten fantastic results with it.) The

difficulty is that it's important to take R-ALA (the R entaniomer of alpha

lipoic acid) in conjunction with carnitine in a ratio of 3:1 or even 2:1

carnitine:R-ALA, because carnitine revs up the mitochondria, producing a

lot more energy (and mobilizing long-chain fats for metabolism in the

bargain) but also producing a lot more mitochondrial oxidation as a natural

consequence. Supplementation with R-ALA takes care of that problem... but

it's on the expensive side. Plain old " regular " ALA is cheaper -- it's a

mix of R-ALA and S-ALA -- but it's a bad idea, as the S form isn't

naturally found in the body and has some undesirable side effects.

More generally, you're brother's going to be doing a lot of oxidative

damage to his body, so any good fat-soluble antioxidants you can get him to

take will be beneficial, though they probably won't have obvious short-term

effects on his performance. (I'm talking about a properly-balanced

full-spectrum tocotrionol and tocopherol E complex, ascorbyl palmitate,

vitamins A and D, that sort of thing.)

Another thing he could try is liver. Liver has an unidentified

anti-fatigue factor (detailed below) and it also seems to boost reflexes,

particularly when taken consistently. I doubt he'd be up for eating raw

liver, though, but there are a few dessicated liver supplements on the

market. Carlson has a desiccated bison liver in capsule form, Dr. Schmid

sells one, and there are probably others. I don't know how effective they

are compared to raw liver, though, and he'd probably have to take a lot of

them to notice an effect.

Lynn posted this old Prevention article on liver a couple years ago, and

I've come across it elsewhere too. It's a real gem:

>> K Ershoff, Ph. D described a classic experiment in the July,

>>1951, Proceedings of the Society for Experimental Biology and Medicine,

>>indicating that liver contains a mysterious anti-fatigue factor. He

>>divided laboratory rats into three groups. The first ate a basic diet,

>>fortified with 11 vitamins. The second ate the same diet, along with an

>>additional supply of vitamin B complex. The third ate the original diet,

>>but instead of vitamin B complex, 10 percent-powdered liver was added to

>>their rations.

>>

>>After several weeks, the animals were placed one by one into a drum of

>>cold water from which they could not climb out. They literally were

>>forced to sink or swim. Rats in the first group swam for an average 13.3

>>minutes before giving up. The second group which had the added

>>fortifications of B vitamins, swam for an average of 13.4 minutes. Of the

>>last group of rats, the ones receiving liver, three swam for 63,83 and 87

>>minutes. The other nine rats in this group were still swimming vigorously

>>at the end of two hours when the test was

>>terminated. Something in the liver had prevented them from becoming

>>exhausted. To this day scientists have not been able to pin a label on

>>this anti-fatigue factor. "

The amazing thing is that the rats were getting powdered liver, and they

still benefited mightily!

So let's see. According to the USDA database, 100g grams of raw beef liver

contains 70.8g of water and 4g of fat. I believe liver is always defatted

when it's dried, so 100g of beef liver would yield 25.2g of solids when

dried. So the 2 pounds of raw liver I eat per week would turn into

something like 227.76g of liver powder, assuming bison liver and beef liver

are about the same. (The database doesn't have info on bison

liver.) Gadzooks! 6 capsules of Carslon bison liver concentrate (which

include cellulose and magnesium stearate as fillers) yield all of 3g of

desiccated liver, meaning that to get the equivalent of 2# of liver a week,

he'd have to take about 2 and a half 180-capsule bottles per week. At

$29.11 per bottle at the Vitamin Shoppe, that's a heck of a lot more

expensive than plain old raw liver! Of course, he might need less than

2#/week, but still, in that study the rats were getting heaps-o liver

powder, so small amounts probably can't be expected to be very effective.

-

[Guest guest]

>lipoic acid can cause serious harm to some people with mercury

>poisoning by moving mercury into the brain from other tissue...

>potentially disastrous for some people.

I seriously doubt such a person would be in any shape to train for a

marathon, but I guess it's still worth noting. It's a very effective

mercury chelator used for mercury treatment, though, so it's not something

that should be blindly avoided by those with major mercury issues

either. It's just that in those cases, great care needs to be taken.

-

[Guest guest]

, thanks for this info. I'm out of the loop on dietary specifics for

endurance training. I'm going to be skiing the American Birkebeiner in

February (52km) and I'd like to do what I can to improve my endurance.

You said you've gotten fantastic results with (propionyl?) l-carnitine.

Could you give some details on dosage? Is it a daily supplement or pre-

or post-workout?

Also, I have raw bison liver that I eat after weight-training (about

twice a week). I bike or run several times per week (actually I bike 6+

miles daily to commute) but don't eat liver after these aerobic

workouts. Do you think I should consider eating raw liver after every

workout or even on the days I don't have a formal workout?

Tom

Idol wrote:

> Short of that, it's not possible to correct a bad diet with supplements,

> but he could try some carnitine. The best forms are acetyl l-carnitine and

> propionyl l-carnitine, NOT plain l-carnitine, which isn't especially

> well-absorbed or utilized. For physical activity purposes, propionyl

> appears to be superior to acetyl, and it's also easier on the gut for in

> case that's an issue. (I've gotten fantastic results with it.) The

> difficulty is that it's important to take R-ALA (the R entaniomer of alpha

> lipoic acid) in conjunction with carnitine in a ratio of 3:1 or even 2:1

> carnitine:R-ALA, because carnitine revs up the mitochondria, producing a

> lot more energy (and mobilizing long-chain fats for metabolism in the

> bargain) but also producing a lot more mitochondrial oxidation as a natural

> consequence. Supplementation with R-ALA takes care of that problem... but

> it's on the expensive side. Plain old " regular " ALA is cheaper -- it's a

> mix of R-ALA and S-ALA -- but it's a bad idea, as the S form isn't

> naturally found in the body and has some undesirable side effects.

>

> More generally, you're brother's going to be doing a lot of oxidative

> damage to his body, so any good fat-soluble antioxidants you can get him to

> take will be beneficial, though they probably won't have obvious short-term

> effects on his performance. (I'm talking about a properly-balanced

> full-spectrum tocotrionol and tocopherol E complex, ascorbyl palmitate,

> vitamins A and D, that sort of thing.)

[Guest guest]

Tom-

>, thanks for this info. I'm out of the loop on dietary specifics for

>endurance training. I'm going to be skiing the American Birkebeiner in

>February (52km) and I'd like to do what I can to improve my endurance.

>You said you've gotten fantastic results with (propionyl?) l-carnitine.

>Could you give some details on dosage? Is it a daily supplement or pre-

>or post-workout?

I've been taking propionyl l-carnitine (aka PLC aka plcar) mainly as a

pre-workout supplement, but also increasingly on non-workout days. Some

people also argue in favor of small doses of carnitine right before bed,

and I'm considering trying that too -- maybe 200-500mg. Unlike acetyl

l-carnitine (aka alcar) it doesn't seem to have any caffeine-like mental

effects, but my dodgy guts tolerate plcar with little or no problem,

whereas alcar tends to irritate them. For whatever it's worth, I've been

taking 1.5g an hour or less before working out, lately upon rising since

I've managed to switch my workouts to the morning. Just make sure to take

enough R-ALA if you decide to supplement with carnitine!

>Also, I have raw bison liver that I eat after weight-training (about

>twice a week). I bike or run several times per week (actually I bike 6+

>miles daily to commute) but don't eat liver after these aerobic

>workouts. Do you think I should consider eating raw liver after every

>workout or even on the days I don't have a formal workout?

Heck if I know. The amount of liver I eat may be high for most people, but

I'm trying to recover from various health problems. OTOH, I'm not aware of

any legitimate drawbacks to eating good clean raw bison liver, and it

certainly is one of the best superfoods out there, so I don't see why you

shouldn't try eating more if you'd like. I find that the effects are

gradual and cumulative, though they dissipate much more quickly than they

accrue. Liver helps my reflexes, my energy level and my stamina, though on

the latter two counts, carnitine has a much more immediately evident impact.

-

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the personal diet advice, much appreciated. Where do you

buy your plcar and R-ALA?

Tom

Idol wrote:

> Tom-

>

>

>>, thanks for this info. I'm out of the loop on dietary specifics for

>>endurance training. I'm going to be skiing the American Birkebeiner in

>>February (52km) and I'd like to do what I can to improve my endurance.

>>You said you've gotten fantastic results with (propionyl?) l-carnitine.

>>Could you give some details on dosage? Is it a daily supplement or pre-

>>or post-workout?

>

>

> I've been taking propionyl l-carnitine (aka PLC aka plcar) mainly as a

> pre-workout supplement, but also increasingly on non-workout days. Some

> people also argue in favor of small doses of carnitine right before bed,

> and I'm considering trying that too -- maybe 200-500mg. Unlike acetyl

> l-carnitine (aka alcar) it doesn't seem to have any caffeine-like mental

> effects, but my dodgy guts tolerate plcar with little or no problem,

> whereas alcar tends to irritate them. For whatever it's worth, I've been

> taking 1.5g an hour or less before working out, lately upon rising since

> I've managed to switch my workouts to the morning. Just make sure to take

> enough R-ALA if you decide to supplement with carnitine!

>

>

>>Also, I have raw bison liver that I eat after weight-training (about

>>twice a week). I bike or run several times per week (actually I bike 6+

>>miles daily to commute) but don't eat liver after these aerobic

>>workouts. Do you think I should consider eating raw liver after every

>>workout or even on the days I don't have a formal workout?

>

>

> Heck if I know. The amount of liver I eat may be high for most people, but

> I'm trying to recover from various health problems. OTOH, I'm not aware of

> any legitimate drawbacks to eating good clean raw bison liver, and it

> certainly is one of the best superfoods out there, so I don't see why you

> shouldn't try eating more if you'd like. I find that the effects are

> gradual and cumulative, though they dissipate much more quickly than they

> accrue. Liver helps my reflexes, my energy level and my stamina, though on

> the latter two counts, carnitine has a much more immediately evident impact.

>

>

>

> -

[Guest guest]

Hey ,

thanks so much for answering my post. these are helpful

recommendations! If my brother doesn't use them, i know that my

husband will! i started by recommending the liver supplements, but

my brother balked at that idea unfortunately. i think i may try

recommending goatein. at least it's something. at this point, he

eats the SAD including drinking a lot of alcohol. i've just got to

let it go at this point. it's ironic because he had started trying

to eat more healthfully, but the more time he spent w/ his

girlfriend and now wife who is a Physician's Assistant, the less he

has paid attention to his eating habits. she basically puts no faith

in nutrition so he has gradually lost interest himself. it just

boggles the mind--she has worked at sloan kettering for the past 10

years and her mother had breast cancer. anyhow, i'm venting! Thanks

for your advice!

lisa

--- In , Idol <Idol@c...>

wrote:

>

> -

>

> >Bottom line is that I know he would be willing to try my

supplement

> >recommendations and if i can help in that way, i would like to. I

> >have brought up the subject of nutrition w/ him, but he is not

> >willing to change his diet because his foods/drinks are

> >his " rewards " for all of his hard work to prepare for this.

>

> It's possible to make really delicious " reward " -type foods that

are

> nutritionally superior to whatever crap he's eating, but I'm sure

you

> already know that. What you might try, if you have the time and

the

> wherewithal, is to just go ahead and make some healthy, tasty

foods for

> him. Maybe if he actually experiences eating well, he might be

more

> willing to change his tune.

>

> Short of that, it's not possible to correct a bad diet with

supplements,

> but he could try some carnitine. The best forms are acetyl l-

carnitine and

> propionyl l-carnitine, NOT plain l-carnitine, which isn't

especially

> well-absorbed or utilized. For physical activity purposes,

propionyl

> appears to be superior to acetyl, and it's also easier on the gut

for in

> case that's an issue. (I've gotten fantastic results with it.)

The

> difficulty is that it's important to take R-ALA (the R entaniomer

of alpha

> lipoic acid) in conjunction with carnitine in a ratio of 3:1 or

even 2:1

> carnitine:R-ALA, because carnitine revs up the mitochondria,

producing a

> lot more energy (and mobilizing long-chain fats for metabolism in

the

> bargain) but also producing a lot more mitochondrial oxidation as

a natural

> consequence. Supplementation with R-ALA takes care of that

problem... but

> it's on the expensive side. Plain old " regular " ALA is cheaper --

it's a

> mix of R-ALA and S-ALA -- but it's a bad idea, as the S form isn't

> naturally found in the body and has some undesirable side effects.

>

> More generally, you're brother's going to be doing a lot of

oxidative

> damage to his body, so any good fat-soluble antioxidants you can

get him to

> take will be beneficial, though they probably won't have obvious

short-term

> effects on his performance. (I'm talking about a properly-

balanced

> full-spectrum tocotrionol and tocopherol E complex, ascorbyl

palmitate,

> vitamins A and D, that sort of thing.)

>

> Another thing he could try is liver. Liver has an unidentified

> anti-fatigue factor (detailed below) and it also seems to boost

reflexes,

> particularly when taken consistently. I doubt he'd be up for

eating raw

> liver, though, but there are a few dessicated liver supplements on

the

> market. Carlson has a desiccated bison liver in capsule form, Dr.

Schmid

> sells one, and there are probably others. I don't know how

effective they

> are compared to raw liver, though, and he'd probably have to take

a lot of

> them to notice an effect.

>

> Lynn posted this old Prevention article on liver a couple years

ago, and

> I've come across it elsewhere too. It's a real gem:

>

> >> K Ershoff, Ph. D described a classic experiment in the

July,

> >>1951, Proceedings of the Society for Experimental Biology and

Medicine,

> >>indicating that liver contains a mysterious anti-fatigue factor.

He

> >>divided laboratory rats into three groups. The first ate a basic

diet,

> >>fortified with 11 vitamins. The second ate the same diet, along

with an

> >>additional supply of vitamin B complex. The third ate the

original diet,

> >>but instead of vitamin B complex, 10 percent-powdered liver was

added to

> >>their rations.

> >>

> >>After several weeks, the animals were placed one by one into a

drum of

> >>cold water from which they could not climb out. They literally

were

> >>forced to sink or swim. Rats in the first group swam for an

average 13.3

> >>minutes before giving up. The second group which had the added

> >>fortifications of B vitamins, swam for an average of 13.4

minutes. Of the

> >>last group of rats, the ones receiving liver, three swam for

63,83 and 87

> >>minutes. The other nine rats in this group were still swimming

vigorously

> >>at the end of two hours when the test was

> >>terminated. Something in the liver had prevented them from

becoming

> >>exhausted. To this day scientists have not been able to pin a

label on

> >>this anti-fatigue factor. "

>

> The amazing thing is that the rats were getting powdered liver,

and they

> still benefited mightily!

>

> So let's see. According to the USDA database, 100g grams of raw

beef liver

> contains 70.8g of water and 4g of fat. I believe liver is always

defatted

> when it's dried, so 100g of beef liver would yield 25.2g of solids

when

> dried. So the 2 pounds of raw liver I eat per week would turn

into

> something like 227.76g of liver powder, assuming bison liver and

beef liver

> are about the same. (The database doesn't have info on bison

> liver.) Gadzooks! 6 capsules of Carslon bison liver concentrate

(which

> include cellulose and magnesium stearate as fillers) yield all of

3g of

> desiccated liver, meaning that to get the equivalent of 2# of

liver a week,

> he'd have to take about 2 and a half 180-capsule bottles per

week. At

> $29.11 per bottle at the Vitamin Shoppe, that's a heck of a lot

more

> expensive than plain old raw liver! Of course, he might need less

than

> 2#/week, but still, in that study the rats were getting heaps-o

liver

> powder, so small amounts probably can't be expected to be very

effective.

>

>

>

> -

>

[Guest guest]

Tom-

>Thanks for the personal diet advice, much appreciated. Where do you

>buy your plcar and R-ALA?

Sorry for the grossly delayed response.

PLCar at Bulk Nutrition for the moment.

K-R-ALA at Nutraplanet for the moment.

-