proteolytic enzymes

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

----------------------------

January 6, 2006

Suze-

>According to DeFelice

Whom we've already established is an interesting but fallible reference...

>the dangers of proteolytic enzymes are only for

>those with severely damaged guts, which, btw, Robin Ann has.

Had.

But anyway, that probably depends on the enzyme (or enzyme package)

and the person, not just the state of the person's gut. Some people

in seemingly good health benefit from some enzymes taken without

food, others worsen. It's a crapshoot. And of course, plenty of

people inclined to take these enzymes are likely to have compromised

guts, but because the enzymes are often recommended for gut problems

and because most people nowadays have some measure of gut problem.

> Wobenzym, which

>contains proteases is apparently the #2 selling " drug " in Germany. It's

>WIDELY used, apparently without any problems.

I'm reminded of Elaine Gottschall visiting a Weight Watchers

meeting. She stood up at one point and asked how many people at the

meeting had diarrhea. A large majority raised their hands. Yet

nobody had connected their digestion to Weight Watchers.

> There's no evidence that I've

>come across yet that it digests the gut lining.

Has anyone done a clinical study of the issue?

And more to the point, " proteolytic enzymes " is just a fancy term for

proteases, and proteases break down proteins.

> discusses this issue a

>bit in her book on enzymes and, IIRC, she writes that the body has a set of

>checks and balances against such an occurance, perhaps due to the fact that

>endogenous proteases are often circulating in our bodies, not in response to

>digestion, but apparently to do other work, like dismantle immune complexes.

This is completely missing the point. First, under natural

circumstances, exogenous enzymes are only going to be present in the

digestive tract when food is taken in. Hence, at least some of these

checks and balances will only be activated during digestion. And

second, the fact that our bodies obviously have lots of enzymes

floating around all over the place doing jobs does not in any way

mean that it's therefore always safe to take a bunch of potent

exogenous proteases between meals.

-

January 6, 2006

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of Idol

>

>Suze-

>

>>According to DeFelice

>

>Whom we've already established is an interesting but fallible reference...

As is ANY reference (although they're not all *interesting*). My point in

mentioning the source of the info I posted was simply because I think it's

important to provide a source of info whenever possible, especially when

it's a contested issue so anyone with counterpoints can reference the

source's info to check for validity themselves.

>

>>the dangers of proteolytic enzymes are only for

>>those with severely damaged guts, which, btw, Robin Ann has.

>

>Had.

Not according to her recent posts to GFCFNN. Her digestion seems to yo-yo a

bit. I don't recall though if she posted something about taking proteases

while her gut was at it's worst, or while it was healing, or...maybe she can

shed some light if she sees this post.

>

>But anyway, that probably depends on the enzyme (or enzyme package)

>and the person, not just the state of the person's gut.

Absolutely.

Some people

>in seemingly good health benefit from some enzymes taken without

>food, others worsen. It's a crapshoot.

How many people do you know that are in seemingly good health and worsen on

enzymes? I'm just curious because I've read and heard about many, many, many

people as well as pets improving on systemic enzymes (including proteases),

even when they had messed up guts. The largest group of these folks that I

know of are the ASD kids many of whom have devistating digestive problems

but *improve* tremendously on a combo of digestive and systemic enzymes.

Some improved to an extent on the digestive enzymes, but then made greater

progress on the systemic enzymes. Maybe their GI tract had begun healing by

the time they used the systemic enzymes, I don't know.

However, I can see where they might not be beneficial to everyone, but I'm

wondering really if it's a crapshoot, or rather just a small minority who

worsen. And for those who worsen, I'd like to know which product(s) they

were taking, because there are all sorts of enzyme blends out there and each

one is not perfectly matched to every individual. Further, Wobenzym has a

bunch of nasty fillers so I could understand where someone would worsen

simply due to the fillers, rather than the enzymes themselves. 's group

of ASD kids mostly take additive-free systemic enzymes, or those with few

fillers or SCD-legal fillers, from what I can tell.

>> Wobenzym, which

>>contains proteases is apparently the #2 selling " drug " in Germany. It's

>>WIDELY used, apparently without any problems.

>

>I'm reminded of Elaine Gottschall visiting a Weight Watchers

>meeting. She stood up at one point and asked how many people at the

>meeting had diarrhea. A large majority raised their hands. Yet

>nobody had connected their digestion to Weight Watchers.

Could be analogous, but is not necessarily so. What I MEANT To say is that

many people (and pets) are using it with a great deal of success. IOW, they

are improving on the systemic enzymes rather than getting worse or

maintaining.

>

>> There's no evidence that I've

>>come across yet that it digests the gut lining.

>

>Has anyone done a clinical study of the issue?

Not that I'm aware of.

>

>And more to the point, " proteolytic enzymes " is just a fancy term for

>proteases, and proteases break down proteins.

I don't know why you think it's any fancier than the word " protease " since

they are simply two different words for protein-digesting enzymes, but yes,

their method_of_action in HELPING is by breaking down proteins, in some

cases, immune complexed proteins that are damaging joints and other tissue.

>

>> discusses this issue a

>>bit in her book on enzymes and, IIRC, she writes that the body

>has a set of

>>checks and balances against such an occurance, perhaps due to the

>fact that

>>endogenous proteases are often circulating in our bodies, not in

>response to

>>digestion, but apparently to do other work, like dismantle immune

>complexes.

>

>This is completely missing the point. First, under natural

>circumstances, exogenous enzymes are only going to be present in the

>digestive tract when food is taken in. Hence, at least some of these

>checks and balances will only be activated during digestion.

Not so. I'm hazy on the details but she discusses certain barriers that are

in place that protect the gut lining from being digested by proteases,

whether exogenous or endogenous at all times, not just during digestion,

IIRC.

And

>second, the fact that our bodies obviously have lots of enzymes

>floating around all over the place doing jobs does not in any way

>mean that it's therefore always safe to take a bunch of potent

>exogenous proteases between meals.

Well of course! But that's a strawman argument, because I never at any point

argued that it's " always safe to take a bunch of potent exogenous proteases

between meals. "

Suze

January 6, 2006

Suze-

>As is ANY reference (although they're not all *interesting*). My point in

>mentioning the source of the info I posted was simply because I think it's

>important to provide a source of info whenever possible, especially when

>it's a contested issue so anyone with counterpoints can reference the

>source's info to check for validity themselves.

Fair point, though it can also easily be misconstrued as argument on authority.

>Not according to her recent posts to GFCFNN. Her digestion seems to yo-yo a

>bit. I don't recall though if she posted something about taking proteases

>while her gut was at it's worst, or while it was healing, or...maybe she can

>shed some light if she sees this post.

Oh really? That's too bad. The last time I recall her posting here

on the subject, it sounded like her digestion had reached something

approaching perfection.

She definitely said proteases without food caused major harm, though.

>How many people do you know that are in seemingly good health and worsen on

>enzymes?

I've seen some number of dozens of people relate experiences along

those lines online. Couldn't tell you exactly how many.

>Further, Wobenzym has a

>bunch of nasty fillers

That's unfortunately true of most supplements, and it definitely

complicates the issue. However, if someone reacts badly to an enzyme

and not to other supplements with the same fillers, it's probably

safe to say it's the enzyme.

> >I'm reminded of Elaine Gottschall visiting a Weight Watchers

> >meeting. She stood up at one point and asked how many people at the

> >meeting had diarrhea. A large majority raised their hands. Yet

> >nobody had connected their digestion to Weight Watchers.

>

>Could be analogous, but is not necessarily so.

Not necessarily, no, but you'd be amazed by how many people have

horrible digestion and treat intermittent, regular or even constant

diarrhea as a normal fact of life. It's a subject most people

consider taboo, but once you get past that, it's quite remarkable.

>their method_of_action in HELPING is by breaking down proteins, in some

>cases, immune complexed proteins that are damaging joints and other tissue.

Unfortunately, I see this sort of thing much more often as an

unsupported assertion than as a documented phenomenon. Do you have

solid evidence of what these enzymes are REALLY doing in the body?

Bear in mind that I'm not saying that at least some of them don't

have positive effects in at least some people. I am saying that in a

non-trivial number of people, the side effects will at least

eventually outweigh the benefits, and I am saying that digestion is

typically ignored in any studies that are done on the effects of these enzymes.

-

January 7, 2006

> >>the dangers of proteolytic enzymes are only for

> >>those with severely damaged guts, which, btw, Robin Ann has.

> >

> >Had.

>

> [suze] Not according to her recent posts to GFCFNN. Her digestion

> seems to yo-yo a bit. I don't recall though if she posted

> something about taking proteases while her gut was at it's worst,

> or while it was healing, or...maybe she can shed some light if she

> sees this post.

I see the post! But I haven't really been following the discussion

so I don't know who made the comments above those of Suze.

Months ago, shortly before I sort of disappeared, I can verify that

I first had bad, perhaps permanently damaged guts: A small-

intestinal biopsy confirmed that I had villous atrophy of the small

intestine -- completely flattened villi and so deriving nutrition

from food was/is iffy. (That explained why I'd suddenly lost 20 very

necessary pounds in a month. I turn out to be a classic case of

Celiac Disease -- and that's why I mainly hang out with the other

glutenators over at GFCFNN now. I wish I had more time to be active

in both groups.)

Anyway, I stopped eating gluten for a year but there were no obvious

changes in symptoms. My gastroenterologist looked at everything I

was eating/taking and thought that, in my case, taking protease on

an empty stomach might be aggravating my gut repair and so I

stopped. I was also consuming minute amounts of lactose which he

also considered a possible reason for my lack of recovery. I also

substantially increased my consumption of probiotics.

I seemed to get better right away but it's hard to say precisely

what was or wasn't the culprit. Anyway, that's why people here may

also remember that I was getting way better...

(Remember that I'm the one who produces no stomach acid and it's

doubtful whether I produce much in the way of enzymes due to gluten-

damage as well as a severe h. pylori stomach infection that

literally perforated my stomach two years ago. So I supplement with

all sorts of things and they really help. I just make sure to take

protease only when I eat protein.)

If I may continue my little health story a bit: after seeming to

finally be on a good strong road back to health -- it was so nice! --

a couple months ago I was struck down suddenly when I consumed a

piece of fresh cooked wild salmon that gave me something called

Scombroid Histamine Poisoning. I ingested enough histamine at one

time so I was not only poisoned -- violently sick out of both ends --

but thrown into anaphylaxis. The plumber who dialed 911 and the

five firemen who took me out in a sling was all that saved my life

that day. (Other people in the area were also sick from the same

fish but I seemed to have gotten the piece with the most poison --

center-cut near the intestines -- the poison is in patches on the

fish...

Needless to say I have a completely thrashed digestive system once

again. The poisoning put all my blood work back to anemia and other

deficiencies as well as candida and making me now very hyper-

allergic to just about anything..

It's all starting to get better but will just take time. Glad to be

here!

~Robin

January 8, 2006

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of Idol

>

>>As is ANY reference (although they're not all *interesting*). My point in

>>mentioning the source of the info I posted was simply because I think it's

>>important to provide a source of info whenever possible, especially when

>>it's a contested issue so anyone with counterpoints can reference the

>>source's info to check for validity themselves.

>

>Fair point, though it can also easily be misconstrued as argument

>on authority.

OK, but that wasn't my intention in the least.

>

>>Not according to her recent posts to GFCFNN. Her digestion seems

>to yo-yo a

>>bit. I don't recall though if she posted something about taking proteases

>>while her gut was at it's worst, or while it was healing,

>or...maybe she can

>>shed some light if she sees this post.

>

>Oh really? That's too bad. The last time I recall her posting here

>on the subject, it sounded like her digestion had reached something

>approaching perfection.

It was doing OK till she got food poisoning a couple months ago, IIRC.

>

>She definitely said proteases without food caused major harm, though.

Right. So I'd ask what the condition of her gut was, what specific product

and dose did she take, what were the fillers, etc, etc. Only after having

more complete info would I make any sort of reasonable guess as to why the

product caused her harm. It certainly COULD have been the proteases, but not

necessarily.

>

>>How many people do you know that are in seemingly good health and

>worsen on

>>enzymes?

>

>I've seen some number of dozens of people relate experiences along

>those lines online. Couldn't tell you exactly how many.

Are these people on the SCD lists?

>

>>Further, Wobenzym has a

>>bunch of nasty fillers

>

>That's unfortunately true of most supplements, and it definitely

>complicates the issue. However, if someone reacts badly to an enzyme

>and not to other supplements with the same fillers, it's probably

>safe to say it's the enzyme.

Agreed.

>

>>their method_of_action in HELPING is by breaking down proteins, in some

>>cases, immune complexed proteins that are damaging joints and

>other tissue.

>

>Unfortunately, I see this sort of thing much more often as an

>unsupported assertion than as a documented phenomenon. Do you have

>solid evidence of what these enzymes are REALLY doing in the body?

When I get a chance I'll re-read that section of 's book and check out

her references and report back.

>

>Bear in mind that I'm not saying that at least some of them don't

>have positive effects in at least some people. I am saying that in a

>non-trivial number of people, the side effects will at least

>eventually outweigh the benefits, and I am saying that digestion is

>typically ignored in any studies that are done on the effects of

>these enzymes.

Just curious how many studies of these enzymes you've read? You could be

right, but I'm just wondering if you're saying that based on one or two

studies you've read, or significantly more?

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

----------------------------

January 8, 2006

Robin-

>If I may continue my little health story a bit: after seeming to

>finally be on a good strong road back to health -- it was so nice! --

>a couple months ago I was struck down suddenly when I consumed a

>piece of fresh cooked wild salmon that gave me something called

>Scombroid Histamine Poisoning. I ingested enough histamine at one

>time so I was not only poisoned -- violently sick out of both ends --

> but thrown into anaphylaxis. The plumber who dialed 911 and the

>five firemen who took me out in a sling was all that saved my life

>that day. (Other people in the area were also sick from the same

>fish but I seemed to have gotten the piece with the most poison --

>center-cut near the intestines -- the poison is in patches on the

>fish...

Wow, that's terrible, and I'm very glad you made it!

If I may be tedious for a moment, I once again recommend adhering to

the principles of the SCD in union with all the usual sources of

nutritional wisdom.

-

January 8, 2006

Suze-

> >>How many people do you know that are in seemingly good health and

> >worsen on

> >>enzymes?

> >

> >I've seen some number of dozens of people relate experiences along

> >those lines online. Couldn't tell you exactly how many.

>

>Are these people on the SCD lists?

Some but not all. I expect you'll respond that people on SCD lists

have compromised guts, but many people stick around (and stick to the

diet) long after fully healing.

> >Unfortunately, I see this sort of thing much more often as an

> >unsupported assertion than as a documented phenomenon. Do you have

> >solid evidence of what these enzymes are REALLY doing in the body?

>

>When I get a chance I'll re-read that section of 's book and check out

>her references and report back.

I should add that just because we might not know exactly what

something like serrapeptase is actually doing in the body doesn't

mean it's not providing some sort of benefit, but where non-digestive

enzymes are concerned, I see an awful lot of irrational and unfounded

cleansing rhetoric.

>Just curious how many studies of these enzymes you've read? You could be

>right, but I'm just wondering if you're saying that based on one or two

>studies you've read, or significantly more?

I'm not sure, as I haven't tracked it.

-

January 8, 2006

> Wow, that's terrible, and I'm very glad you made it!

>

> If I may be tedious for a moment, I once again recommend adhering to

> the principles of the SCD in union with all the usual sources of

> nutritional wisdom.

> -

Hi . I don't think you're being tedious but I guess I'm wondering

how the Specific Carbohydrate Diet fits with the salmon poisoning

story.... Do tell :-)

~Robin

January 8, 2006

>-----Original Message-----

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of Robin Ann

>> If I may be tedious for a moment, I once again recommend adhering to

>> the principles of the SCD in union with all the usual sources of

>> nutritional wisdom.

>> -

>

>Hi . I don't think you're being tedious

Well, you're the only one!

;-)

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

http://www.westonaprice.org/envtoxins/dioxins.html

----------------------------

January 10, 2006

Robin-

>Hi . I don't think you're being tedious but I guess I'm wondering

>how the Specific Carbohydrate Diet fits with the salmon poisoning

>story.... Do tell :-)

It would make you more resilient.

-

January 10, 2006

On 1/6/06, Suze Fisher <s.fisher22@...> wrote:

> Not so. I'm hazy on the details but she discusses certain barriers that are

> in place that protect the gut lining from being digested by proteases,

> whether exogenous or endogenous at all times, not just during digestion,

> IIRC.

According to Dr. Rind, people who are deficient in HCl are usually

deficient in the mucous barrier that protects the lining cells from

acid, which is probably what protects them from enzymes in part. Just

a thought to throw in there.

Chris

--

Dioxins in Animal Foods:

A Case For Vegetarianism?

Find Out the Truth:

January 10, 2006

>According to Dr. Rind, people who are deficient in HCl are usually

>deficient in the mucous barrier that protects the lining cells from

>acid, which is probably what protects them from enzymes in part.

I assume you're talking about the mucous barrier in the *stomach* not

the entire GI tract? Just curious.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics