Re: CO vs VCO or EVCO AND Good news about organic diet!

[Guest guest]

Concerning Breads: Have you tried breads from Alvarado bakery?

Also, re packable lunches: how about hard boiled eggs or egg salad.

> I have been using Spectrum Naturals Expeller Presssed Organic

Coconut

> Oil for about a month. What is the diff. between CO and VCO or

EVCO?

> I am thinking that expeller pressed means no high heat used.

> ### Also,

> while I am at it, I will share that we have been eating organic

meat,

> peanut butter, honey, bread and organic dairy for about 4 weeks. I

> can NOT believe the changes

> that are happening. I skipped PMS this month and have had maybe

one

> cramp. I am 40 years old and still get at least one skin scarring

> pimple each month but not this time!! (PTL) This can not be

placebo

> effect

> b/c I never expected this! I went organic for son's ADD, husbands

> Hep

> C and my ulcertive colitis/chron's (medical minds dissagree but I

> know

> I have niether) My oldest (add)son says he is getting more done at

> school and

> is

> complaining less about taste of things!!! They both hate the

> Esekiel

> bread unless it is grilled w/butter which is a problem for packing

> lunch. They came home a few times w/whole organic P. Butter and

> honey sandwhiches the first two weeks. So, we are seeing

progress.

> Any suggestions for

> packable lunches would be great. Also, any ideas on breads? Thanks

> to

> everyone who writes here. I read everyday. Roni

[Guest guest]

On Sun, 01 May 2005 17:01:16 -0000

" beauticontrolmom " <beauticontrolmom@...> wrote:

> I have been using Spectrum Naturals Expeller Presssed Organic Coconut

> Oil for about a month. What is the diff. between CO and VCO or EVCO?

> I am thinking that expeller pressed means no high heat used.

I wouldn't get too caught up in the acronyms. VCO is virgin coconut oil

and EVCO is extra virgin coconut oil. What really matters is what is

important to you in terms of a coconut oil.

IMO, the best two oils are both " raw " , one using a fairly new centrifuge

process and the other fermented in the traditional way. They both can be

purchased here: http://www.wildernessfamilynaturals.com/

You will also find good information about coconut oil and coconut

products in general.

I personally think the Spectrum Naturals product is markedly inferior to

the ones mentioned above.

" This is what is meant by " sacrifice " , literally, the " making sacred "

of an animal consumed for dinner. Yet sacrifice, because it dwells

on the death, is a concept often shocking to the secular modern

Western mind - to people who calmly organize daily hecatombs

of beasts, and who are among the most death-dealing carnivores

the world has ever seen. "

Margaret Visser: The Rituals of Dinner

[Guest guest]

>I personally think the Spectrum Naturals product is markedly inferior to

>the ones mentioned above.

>

>

>

>

Agreed. Spectrum doesn't even smell like coconut.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

If you go to the tropical traditions web site it explains the diff.

between EPCO (expellor pressed) and VCO...the VCO is slightly more

healthful and less expensive.

the VCO smells like coc; the EP has no odor. the difference is in how

they are processed.

virgin is just a name; and i believe they were the ones to come up with

the term 'vco'. they never mention extra virgin...

and coconut oil is not necessarily 'raw' and it doesn't need to

be 'raw'; this is also explained on the web site. coc. oil is very

stable and doesn't lose anything when it is heated; it is pure fat and

contains no enzymes to begin with.

this is my understanding; please correct me if i'm wrong.

laura

>

> >I personally think the Spectrum Naturals product is markedly

inferior to

> >the ones mentioned above.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> Agreed. Spectrum doesn't even smell like coconut.

>

>

> Deanna

[Guest guest]

On Mon, 02 May 2005 00:53:32 -0000

" laurainnewjersey " <laurabusse@...> wrote:

> If you go to the tropical traditions web site it explains the diff.

> between EPCO (expellor pressed) and VCO...the VCO is slightly more

> healthful and less expensive.

>

> the VCO smells like coc; the EP has no odor. the difference is in how

> they are processed.

>

> virgin is just a name; and i believe they were the ones to come up with

> the term 'vco'. they never mention extra virgin...

>

> and coconut oil is not necessarily 'raw' and it doesn't need to

> be 'raw'; this is also explained on the web site. coc. oil is very

> stable and doesn't lose anything when it is heated; it is pure fat and

> contains no enzymes to begin with.

>

> this is my understanding; please correct me if i'm wrong.

>

> laura

I didn't mention anything about enzymes but TT's claim that no coconut

oil is " raw " is, IMO, rather self-serving (as are some other practices

on Mr. Shilhavey's list group).

IIRC, and it has been a couple of years since I was down and dirty in

the coconut oil wars, TT's oil during processing reached some rather

high temps. I have the email somewhere if it is deemed necessary to drag

it out. It certainly (then) didn't reach the level of your typical RBD

oil, but the temperature was certainly higher than the two oils I

mentioned in the previous post (however, at the time the centrifuged oil

was the only " raw " oil available) and higher than the temperature that

the oil would have ever reached in nature.

While TT can dispute the enzyme issue (which I happen to agree with them

on), it doesn't change the fact that there are " raw " oils out there. And

I put " raw " in quotation marks because saying something is raw doesn't

necessarily mean you are saying it is unheated. Milk from a cow leaves

the body somewhere between 100-110 degrees. That is plenty warm.

So heat per se is not the issue when talking raw, but rather whether a

food is processed at a temperature higher than its normal ambient

temperature. Only at that point can we say something is being cooked or

is cooked. TT's oil, at least last I checked, certainly qualified as

cooked, and the other two oils did not. And to say it doesn't reach

boiling doesn't really say much, except that it isn't RBD oil (which

gets up to 400 degrees I think). Notice they never tell you what temp.

it actually does reach (at least I couldn't find it).

Even their own site points out the differences as the heat processing

temperature of the oil rises, although they do tend to downplay it.

Now I don't have a dog in this fight, so I don't really care who has

what, as long as they have what I want. If TT has an oil that is

equivalent to the centrifuge oil or the fermented oil that WFN has (or

sourced from the same place), then thats great. If they don't, thats

fine too. It's just not what I want *unless* I'm looking for a CO that

will be used in higher heat applications, and sometimes I am.

" This is what is meant by " sacrifice " , literally, the " making sacred "

of an animal consumed for dinner. Yet sacrifice, because it dwells

on the death, is a concept often shocking to the secular modern

Western mind - to people who calmly organize daily hecatombs

of beasts, and who are among the most death-dealing carnivores

the world has ever seen. "

Margaret Visser: The Rituals of Dinner

[Guest guest]

On Sunday, May 1, 2005, at 09:34 PM, wrote:

> It's just not what I want *unless* I'm looking for a CO that

> will be used in higher heat applications, and sometimes I am.

>

>

>

So you do not use your CO for cooking? Would you not use the two that

you recommended for cooking? What oil would you use for cooking?

Sandy

[Guest guest]

, i really appreciate your post...

since you obviously know more about this than me, i'd like to cut to

the chase:

can you please tell me, then, in your opinion, what is the best co to

consume, and from where? if there is a tie, i'll take the cheaper

one.

i'll take your word for it if you have just a brief explanation as to

why; no need to be dragging out old emails. i believe you.

also, sorry, but if you could tell me what IIRC and RBD and WFN

mean...

all i know is what i've read on the TT web site and in sally's book

EFLF (sally in my opinion leaves out some very important info, such

as too much co too soon can make you REALLY sick like it did me, plus

that you should consume as much animal fat as the co...and i love

sally dearly.)

Now I don't have a dog in this fight, so I don't really care who has

> what, as long as they have what I want. If TT has an oil that is

> equivalent to the centrifuge oil or the fermented oil that WFN has

(or

> sourced from the same place), then thats great. If they don't, thats

> fine too. It's just not what I want *unless* I'm looking for a CO

that

> will be used in higher heat applications, and sometimes I am.

>

>

[Guest guest]

On Mon, 2 May 2005 06:10:05 -0500

Sandy <samack@...> wrote:

>

> On Sunday, May 1, 2005, at 09:34 PM, wrote:

>

> > It's just not what I want *unless* I'm looking for a CO that

> > will be used in higher heat applications, and sometimes I am.

> >

> >

> >

>

> So you do not use your CO for cooking? Would you not use the two that

> you recommended for cooking? What oil would you use for cooking?

>

> Sandy

The two oils I mentioned have a fragrant coconut nut taste and smell,

and it is quite noticeable to me when I cook and generally doesn't mesh

well with what I'm cooking. Every time I have used them with my family

they notice the coconut taste in the food.

If I were cooking with coconut oil it would probably be the spectrum

product.

But in general I prefer sauteing with butter and olive oil, and cooking

with lard (when available) or palm oil if its going to be mid to high

temp. I will eventually work toward using lots of duck fat as well.

" This is what is meant by " sacrifice " , literally, the " making sacred "

of an animal consumed for dinner. Yet sacrifice, because it dwells

on the death, is a concept often shocking to the secular modern

Western mind - to people who calmly organize daily hecatombs

of beasts, and who are among the most death-dealing carnivores

the world has ever seen. "

Margaret Visser: The Rituals of Dinner

[Guest guest]

On Mon, 02 May 2005 12:19:54 -0000

" laurainnewjersey " <laurabusse@...> wrote:

> , i really appreciate your post...

>

> since you obviously know more about this than me, i'd like to cut to

> the chase:

>

> can you please tell me, then, in your opinion, what is the best co to

> consume, and from where? if there is a tie, i'll take the cheaper

> one.

At this point in time, you can't go wrong with the oils from WFN.

http://www.wildernessfamilynaturals.com.

Both oils they carry are subject to very low heat. You will have to

decide for yourself if they are worth cooking with. Personally I would

ingest these raw and cook with a higher temperature coconut oil if I

wanted to cook with it on a regular basis. Spectrum would fit that bill.

> i'll take your word for it if you have just a brief explanation as to

> why; no need to be dragging out old emails. i believe you.

>

> also, sorry, but if you could tell me what IIRC and RBD and WFN

> mean...

IIRC = " if I remember correctly " or " if I recall correctly "

RBD = refined, bleached, deodorized

WFN = Wilderness Family Naturals

> all i know is what i've read on the TT web site and in sally's book

> EFLF (sally in my opinion leaves out some very important info, such

> as too much co too soon can make you REALLY sick like it did me, plus

> that you should consume as much animal fat as the co...and i love

> sally dearly.)

How did it make you sick?

" This is what is meant by " sacrifice " , literally, the " making sacred "

of an animal consumed for dinner. Yet sacrifice, because it dwells

on the death, is a concept often shocking to the secular modern

Western mind - to people who calmly organize daily hecatombs

of beasts, and who are among the most death-dealing carnivores

the world has ever seen. "

Margaret Visser: The Rituals of Dinner

[Guest guest]

On Wednesday, May 4, 2005, at 01:48 PM, wrote:

> But in general I prefer sauteing with butter and olive oil, and cooking

> with lard (when available) or palm oil if its going to be mid to high

> temp. I will eventually work toward using lots of duck fat as well.

>

>

What about bacon grease?

Sandy

[Guest guest]

Does anyone here have a source for quality palm oil? Also, is there a

certain type of palm oil to get -- as in " unrefined " or any of that sort of

thing? Thank you. ~Robin

[Guest guest]

On Wednesday, May 4, 2005, at 01:48 PM, wrote:

> Personally I would

> ingest these raw and cook with a higher temperature coconut oil if I

> wanted to cook with it on a regular basis. Spectrum would fit that

> bill.

>

>

Coconut Oil (Organic), Unrefined 14 oz by Spectrum Naturals

Price: $7.74

Availability: Usually ships in 1-2 weeks from Global Mart

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #8,139 in Gourmet Food

ASIN: B0007KNXX4

Date first available at Amazon: February 18, 2005

Is this the spectrum oil you are recommending for cooking?

Sandy

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0007KNXX4/103-2789819-

5683028?v=glance

[Guest guest]

How did it make you sick?

>

>

,

sally's book, EFLF, tell you to take so much coc. oil before meals,

and tells you how much according to your wt.

according to my wt, i needed 6 TB per day, 2 TB 20 min. before each

meal.

i was SO SICK; i had diarrhea for days and spent days in bed. it was

horrible.

i knew it was the co so i went to the TT web site to see if there was

anything there about it, and sure enough, CO makes some people

nauseous. well, it made me downright ill.

the people at TT said that starting at 6 TB per day is enough to make

ANYONE sick. so i backed off and started with 1 TSP per day and

worked my way up.

the garden of life hso's (primal defense) had the same effect on me

only i KNEW to take only one and wait a day or two; it cleaned me out

as well, but not so bad cuz i took only one pill.

i found out, thru both TT (i think their book on CO) and jordan

rubin's book the Maker's Diet that this is called a Herxheimer

reaction, and it's a die-off reaction. the CO and HSO's kill the bad

bacteria and fungi in the gut, causing the herxheimer rx.

some people just get nauseous. i think kombucha might do the same

thing.

anyway, i learned from TT (maybe their book) that if you eat the

concentrated coc. cream instead of the oil, the reaction will be less.

so i started eating the stuff but this time instead of diarrhea it

gave me severe indigestion to the point where i felt like i couldn't

digest anything. that was almost worse than the diarrhea.

rubin also says this herxheimer rx includes indigestion as well.

so my gut must have been in REALLY bad shape. i started drinking raw

milk a year ago but couldn't tolerate it very well. i can tolerate

it better now, maybe cuz my gut is in better shape.

i wrote to sally to tell her what happened to me, and that she should

tell people NOT to start with 6 TB!! she said she was glad i told

her.

she also said she thinks the people who can't tolerate raw milk, it's

cuz of their poor gut flora.

sorry this is so long but i wanted to tell you the whole story.

laura

[Guest guest]

> sally's book, EFLF, tell you to take so much coc. oil before meals,

> and tells you how much according to your wt.

> according to my wt, i needed 6 TB per day, 2 TB 20 min. before each

> meal.

Can you tell me what she recommends for someone 115 lbs?

> i was SO SICK; i had diarrhea for days and spent days in bed. it

was

> horrible.

I also got *horribly* sick the first time I had coconut oil. This

was a few years ago. I vomited and also had diarrhea for several

days.

After that the thought of it was repulsive to me. Later I tried WFN

coconut cream. While I loved the taste, my throat would immediately

begin to pulsate or quiver when I ate it. It's an odd sensation that

just made me think, " this isn't right " and I wondered if it was some

type of allergic reaction. So I also stopped coconut cream.

Now I wonder if it was the Herxheimer reaction. Have you heard of

the pulsing/quivering throat anywhere else?

Thanks for sharing your story.

[Guest guest]

> Does anyone here have a source for quality palm oil? Also, is there a

> certain type of palm oil to get -- as in " unrefined " or any of that

sort of

> thing? Thank you. ~Robin

>

There is a plam shortening available in health food stores, but it is

somewhat refined. It does smell exactly like the oil they used to use

to cook fries at Mcs back in the good ol' days. It also reminds

me of funnel cakes cooking. It has a really nice flavor and aroma but

it doesn't look/smell like unrefined palm oil so I'm not sure

how " healthy " it is or what they do to it.

The only palm oil that Tropical Traditions or Wilderness Family

Naturals sell is unrefined. It has a bright orange color and a strong

aroma. Kinda strange aroma - reminds me a little of play-dough. Some

people find it offensive, but I like it. (I think TT makes a small

sample sized jar.) It doesn't impart as much flavor to food as you

might think after smelling it. I absolutely love potatoes cooked in

palm oil. Since I gave up butter, I've been sauteing vegetables in it

and I really like the flavor, but it's definately one of those things

that not everyone likes.

Katy

[Guest guest]

--- Katy <iowakatybug@...> wrote:

> There is a plam shortening available in health food stores, but it is

> somewhat refined. [snip]

> It has a really nice flavor and aroma but

> it doesn't look/smell like unrefined palm oil so I'm not sure

> how " healthy " it is or what they do to it.

Shortening usually means hydrogenated.

Hydrogenated plam oil is a common ingredient in several convenience foods, snack

bars,

etc.

__________________________________

Mobile

Take with you! Check email on your mobile phone.

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[Guest guest]

> Shortening usually means hydrogenated.

> Hydrogenated plam oil is a common ingredient in several convenience

foods, snack bars,

> etc.

>

Yeah, it's definately hydrogenated. And bleached. Probably some

other stuff wrong with it too. It's a white solid at room

temperature. But since palm oil is pretty saturated to start with,

it's not as hydrogenated as say hydrogenated vegetable oil. It's

definately a big compromise fat, but not as bad as some others.

Probably the same order of magnitude on the " badness " scale as

something like spectrum coconut oil.

Katy

[Guest guest]

,

i'll have to find the book, then find IN the book what the

recommendation is.

your experience was even worse than mine, yikes.

i have no idea if that was an allergic rx or what.

what i would do, is start with the tiniest amount possible; take 1/16

of a tsp. if you don't react, the next day try 1/8 tsp, if you don't

react try 1/4 tsp the next day, etc. etc.

if you have a reaction you could back up to the amt that didn't cause

any reaction and stay there for a few days then try to work your way

up again.

the other thing you could do would be to get some of those Garden of

Life Primal Defense hso's...if the problem is your gut, taking just

one of those pills will clean you out, you will have a reaction.

take one pill one day and see what happens. if it cleans you out,

wait a day or two or three and take another one. with these pills, i

worked up to 3 per day rather quickly. you can order them from

www.christinescleansecorner.com

if these pills cause no reaction but the coc. oil still does cause a

reaction, then i would say the problem is not in your gut, it's not a

Herx. reaction, but the problem is that for some reason you can't

tolerate coc. oil.

you could try another brand of coc. and see what happens...

you could also try fresh coconut and see if you have the same

reaction.

good luck to you, .

but the way, the amount of coc. oil sally recommends per body wt. is

for wt. loss...why do you want to know the recommended amt. if you

weigh 115, LOL? just curious.

laura

p.s. no, i've never heard of the throat reaction thing...must have

been awful.

>

> Can you tell me what she recommends for someone 115 lbs?

>

> I also got *horribly* sick the first time I had coconut oil. This

> was a few years ago. I vomited and also had diarrhea for several

> days.

>

> After that the thought of it was repulsive to me. Later I tried

WFN

> coconut cream. While I loved the taste, my throat would

immediately

> begin to pulsate or quiver when I ate it. It's an odd sensation

that

> just made me think, " this isn't right " and I wondered if it was

some

> type of allergic reaction. So I also stopped coconut cream.

>

> Now I wonder if it was the Herxheimer reaction. Have you heard of

> the pulsing/quivering throat anywhere else?

>

> Thanks for sharing your story.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Katy,

do you mind if i ask you...why did you give up butter? took me by

surprise when you said that. most of the people here are trying to eat

MORE butter (but raw).

laura

Since I gave up butter, I've been sauteing vegetables in it

> and I really like the flavor, but it's definately one of those things

> that not everyone likes.

>

> Katy

[Guest guest]

You can use RAW Olive Oil and put it in the fridge, way better for you and

" buttery " and RAW! Butter has negative PH, makes body acidic, also high in

cholesterol and bad fats! Olive oil is good! Plant based, positive, etc.

http://www.Rawinten.com

laurainnewjersey <laurabusse@...> wrote:

Katy,

do you mind if i ask you...why did you give up butter? took me by

surprise when you said that. most of the people here are trying to eat

MORE butter (but raw).

laura

Since I gave up butter, I've been sauteing vegetables in it

> and I really like the flavor, but it's definately one of those things

> that not everyone likes.

>

> Katy

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[Guest guest]

> Katy,

>

> do you mind if i ask you...why did you give up butter? took me by

> surprise when you said that. most of the people here are trying

to eat

> MORE butter (but raw).

>

> laura

>

I'm casein intolerant and I can't even tolerate raw cream and raw

butter. :-( I would love to be able to eat butter, because it did

some really amazing things for my menstrual problems, but it also

simultaneously does very evil things to my health so I had to give

it up.

Katy

[Guest guest]

On Thu, 5 May 2005 11:06:58 -0700 (PDT)

Au <goodbryan2000@...> wrote:

> You can use RAW Olive Oil and put it in the fridge, way better for you

>and " buttery " and RAW! Butter has negative PH, makes body acidic, also

>high in cholesterol and bad fats! Olive oil is good! Plant based,

>positive, etc.

>

>

> http://www.Rawinten.com

You must be passing through and actually got on the wrong list, right?

Are you familiar with the work of Weston Price?

" This is what is meant by " sacrifice " , literally, the " making sacred "

of an animal consumed for dinner. Yet sacrifice, because it dwells

on the death, is a concept often shocking to the secular modern

Western mind - to people who calmly organize daily hecatombs

of beasts, and who are among the most death-dealing carnivores

the world has ever seen. "

Margaret Visser: The Rituals of Dinner

[Guest guest]

wrote:

> but the way, the amount of coc. oil sally recommends per body wt. is

> for wt. loss...why do you want to know the recommended amt. if you

> weigh 115, LOL? just curious.

Oh - I didn't realize the CO recommendation was for weight loss! I

thought it was just for general health or detox. (I haven't followed

the thread closely.) Nope, at 115 I'm not looking to lose weight! LOL!

Thanks for your input. And thanks Katy & for yours as well. The

throat quiver thing is odd and it's kinda nice to know others have

experienced it.

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: " Au " <goodbryan2000@...>

Butter has negative PH, makes body acidic, also high in cholesterol and bad

fats!

--------------

???

Whoa! I thought people on here were way past that cholesterol paranoia??

WAP, NT etc?

Take care,

Alice - HSing mom to Alice (DS) born Thanksgiving Day 1995 :-)

Hopewell Junction, NY

http://users.bestweb.net/~castella

[Guest guest]

>>You can use RAW Olive Oil and put it in the fridge, way better for you

>>and " buttery " and RAW! Butter has negative PH, makes body acidic, also

>>high in cholesterol and bad fats! Olive oil is good! Plant based,

>>positive, etc.

>>

>>

>>http://www.Rawinten.com

>>

>>

>

>You must be passing through and actually got on the wrong list, right?

>

>Are you familiar with the work of Weston Price?

>

>

>

I dunno. He has a book to sell. Where is Uncle these days,

anyway? , please do take the fabulous vegetarian tour at the

Weston A. Price Foundation. I found this group after I experienced

deficiencies on a raw vegan diet. I have never looked back. Raw food

is great, so long as animal foods factor in somewhere, like vitamin rich

raw butter.

http://www.westonaprice.org/tour/vegtourindex.html

Deanna

http://www.salvonix.com/HomeProject/ (not a commercial site)