Alum & Aluminum

[Guest guest]

> >There is no Aluminium in Alum, but its chemical formula is

> >Aluminium Sulphate.

>

> : Meaning there's aluminum in alum, and this

> author is either lying or ignorant.

~~I think the author here is referring to pure aluminum, which alum does

" not " have. Take for example sodium chloride (table salt), which is composed

of sodium and chlorine. Sodium is a violently reactive metal, while Chlorine

was used as a poison in WWI (mustard gas). Either of these substances on

their own would do incredible damage to a body, but in the form of salt, we

can ingest it not only without harm, but to our benefit. It is not pure

sodium and pure chlorine mashed together, but a compound with charactersitics

very different from its component substances.

> >The critical fact is that only certain types

> >of aluminium compounds are harmful to humans. For example, if one were to

> >swallow a pellet of pure solid aluminium, it would pass through the

digestive

> >tract and emerge from the body unchanged. In that situation, no absorption

of

> >aluminium would occur, and no harm to the individual would result.

> : This strikes me as extraordinarily unlikely,

> because aluminum cookware is toxic, and not just when

> cooking with acidic foods. (Not to mention that the

> stomach is very acidic, though I don't know what the

> solubility product of aluminum in HCl would be --

> I'd have to look it up.) Also, aluminum constantly

> rubs off aluminum cookware, since it's a very soft

> metal, so it's not like the lump would be physically

> unchanged by its passage through the digestive tract.

~~Ingesting an aluminum pellet is not the same as ingesting an aluminum salt.

I'm not sure why the author would use that particular example or come to

that conclusion.

> >On the other hand, potassium alum (KAlSO4) is a compound which is very

> >insoluble compound and stable. When used on the surface of the skin, no

> >significant absorption occurs. If any minimal amount of alum is absorbed,

> >it would not ionise, but would be secreted from the body in an unchanged

> >state. Therefore, alum appears to be one of the aluminium compounds which

> >is not harmful to humans.

>

> : The author is confusing solubility with initial

> absorption through the skin. Something doesn't

> necessarily have to be soluble to be absorbed through

> the skin; it can merely be present in small enough

> particles, which indeed it would presumably have to be

> in order to spread around evenly enough to function as

> a deodorant. I'd also be very leery of assuming that

> any given substance is sure to be inert and completely

> harmless in the body just because it has low solubility

> products in the lab with a handful of individual

> compounds. The body is a very complex system, and many

> seemingly inert chemicals have turned out to be harmful

> in the body.

Personally, I don't have enough credible information regarding

solubility/absorption issues to be able to draw any sort of definitive

conclusion on this.

~~ Jocelyne

[Guest guest]

> Message: 10

> Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 15:22:02 -0500

> From: Idol <Idol@...>

> Subject: Re: Re: Alum & Aluminum

>

> Jocelyne-

>

> >However, I have no personal knowledge of the effect of aluminum ions on

the

> >body and did acknowledge this previously.

>

> Well, on that count at least I can inform you. Aluminum can cause all

> sorts of CNS and brain damage (dementia, memory loss, dyskinesia,

> etc.). Aluminum ions can interfere with the availability and absorption of

> phosphate and can denature proteins, causing who knows what physiological

> damage. And metallic aluminum (and aluminum oxide) if inhaled in powder

> form is implicated in pulmonary fibrosis.

> -

Thanks for the info .

~~ Jocelyne

[Guest guest]

Just curious what the options are for deodorant other than regular store bought

and health food store salt-types. What do you use?

Vivian

[Guest guest]

Alum= Potassium sulfate

Aluminum= Aluminum sulfate

Do we have a chemist on this list who can put this nonsense to bed for us?

Connie Bernard

http://www.PandoraPads.com

Organic Cotton Feminine Pads, Tampons, Nursing Pads,

Natural Progesterone Cream, and Children's Supplements.

On-line Discount Voucher: aa242a223

[Guest guest]

Connie-

>Alum= Potassium sulfate

>

>Aluminum= Aluminum sulfate

I'm sorry, but you're completely wrong.

There are a number of varieties of alum, but all of them include aluminum,

and potassium alum is KAl(SO4)2 - 12 H2O. You'll notice aluminum in the

chemical formula. This type of alum is also sometimes called *aluminum*

potassium sulfate -- hence the confusion, I guess. But potassium sulfate

is also found with other elements in other molecules, not just alum, and

aluminum itself comes in many forms and is a component of many, many

molecules, including potassium alum.

-

[Guest guest]

We are exposed to all kinds of harmful metals all the time. Many of us grew

up in houses with lead paint and lead pipes or lead solder in the pipes. I

did. I was born in 1961 and that is all they used to paint houses. The

house we lived in when my son was born was built in 1870 and the house we

live in now was built in 1954 so both most certainly have lead paint.

When a child or family (since usually it is the entire family) gets exposed

to lead the treatment for it is calcium and iron supplements. The reason is

that calcium and iron displace lead because calcium and iron bind to the

same receptor sites in the body (bones and teeth) that lead does.

Magnesium binds to the same receptor sites as aluminum. My general practice

doctor does chelation in her office. She is participating in a major double

blind chelation study where some get chelation and some get placebo. She

tests nearly every patient who comes in because she wants to chelate

everyone who walks in the door and she tests me pretty regularly. I use

lots of THAI brand crystal deodorant. It is the only thing that I feel is

effective for me. I also take magnesium daily because I do not feel I get

adequate intake in my food since my food intolerances limit my intake of

certain foods. I have been using Alum for deodorant under my arms for about

15 years.

When my husband first heard of Alum deodorant stones (out of concern for me)

he asked his chemical engineer friends w ho researched the literature and

confirmed that alum is safe and not the same compound as aluminum.

If you are concerned about Aluminum, don't eat in restaurants. Aluminum is

considered in the culinary industry the very BEST conductor of heat and

almost all commercial kitchens to cook nearly everything. The bottoms of

the pans are scraped with metal spoons and acids such as tomato juice, wine,

vinegar and fruit juice are heated in these pans and then served to you on

your plate. This is certainly far more dangerous than Thai deodorant

stones.

The difference between alum and aluminum is about the same as the difference

between carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide. One is deadly and the other is

essential to life. The only problem with alum and aluminum is the

nomenclature. There are many such chemical compound examples: carbon

monoxide, carbon dioxide; benzene and sodium benzoate, etc. Alum is used in

cooking and has been used for centuries to by Asians eliminate body odor.

I continue to use my SAFE Thai deodorant stone and smell rosy. :-) I would

have my aluminum level checked by a lab before I changed my deodorant stone.

But that's me, I want to get the facts first. I think I will call Deodorant

Stones of America this next week and have a chat with them again. If I turn

up any new info, I'll post it here.

Connie Bernard

http://www.PandoraPads.com

Organic Cotton Feminine Pads, Tampons, Nursing Pads,

Natural Progesterone Cream, and Children's Supplements.

On-line Discount Voucher: nn242g223

[Guest guest]

From: Connie Bernard <<When my husband first heard of Alum deodorant stones (out

of concern for me) he asked his chemical engineer friends w ho researched the

literature and confirmed that alum is safe and not the same compound as

aluminum. <snip>... If you are concerned about Aluminum, don't eat in

restaurants. Aluminum is considered in the culinary industry the very BEST

conductor of heat and almost all commercial kitchens to cook nearly everything.

The bottoms of the pans are scraped with metal spoons and acids such as tomato

juice, wine, vinegar and fruit juice are heated in these pans and then served to

you on your plate. This is certainly far more dangerous than Thai deodorant

stones.

Connie,

I had the same question re deodorant stones a couple of years ago so asked a

friend who's a Prof. of chemical engineering at Imperial College London... the

bottom line in his long explanation [which I couldn't follow fully due to the

anaesthetic effect any discussion about chemistry brings about :-)]... was...

the alum in my crystal deodorant is a different substance from the aluminium

compounds used in ANTI-PERSPIRANTS... and no... nothing to worry about...

BTW... the crystal deodorants do NOT prevent perspiration... it's just that

bacteria can't grow on them... regular,aluminium-containing anti-perspirants

actually BLOCK perspiration and do involve all the undesirable results of

aluminium... I'd agree that eating in restaurants is detrimental to health on

more than one account :-)

Dedy

[Guest guest]

Connie-

>When my husband first heard of Alum deodorant stones (out of concern for me)

>he asked his chemical engineer friends w ho researched the literature and

>confirmed that alum is safe and not the same compound as aluminum.

You do realize, I hope, that chemical engineers generally have zero

expertise in health and biology, and that the " literature " is rife with

garbage?

>If you are concerned about Aluminum, don't eat in restaurants. Aluminum is

>considered in the culinary industry the very BEST conductor of heat and

>almost all commercial kitchens to cook nearly everything. The bottoms of

>the pans are scraped with metal spoons and acids such as tomato juice, wine,

>vinegar and fruit juice are heated in these pans and then served to you on

>your plate. This is certainly far more dangerous than Thai deodorant

>stones.

Now *that* I agree with. At the very least, people should make a practice

of asking restaurants whether they use aluminum cookware. If enough people

refuse to patronize establishments that cook with aluminum, maybe they'll

change. I hardly ever eat out for financial reasons -- sushi maybe a

couple times a year, and that's about it -- but if I did eat out more

often, I'd buckle down and be a pest about it.

>The difference between alum and aluminum is about the same as the difference

>between carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide. One is deadly and the other is

>essential to life.

I'm sorry again, but surely even you, an alum advocate and vendor, must

agree that's a false analogy. Alum is not essential to life.

>I continue to use my SAFE Thai deodorant stone

People all, of course, have to make their own decisions, and I'm certainly

not saying alum deodorant is *definitely* harmful. What I am saying,

however, is that all of the literature I've seen in its defense has been

rife with errors and abysmally poor -- all of it, without exception -- and

there's no real, solid evidence in its favor. Therefore, I think caution

is the order of the day. It's certainly not possible, at least based on

the information I've turned up, to confidently assert that alum is safe.

-

[Guest guest]

Dedy-

>the alum in my crystal deodorant is a different substance from the

>aluminium compounds used in ANTI-PERSPIRANTS... and no... nothing to

>worry about...

That's true -- conventional antiperspirants employ aluminum salts, AFAIK --

but what's not certain is that alum is (a) safe in its native form, and (

inert in the body, which is to say unable to dissociate in the body, thus

potentially liberating aluminum in one or more known harmful forms. I'm

inclined to doubt it's completely inert in the body (few things are) and

therefore I suspect that while it's not nearly as harmful as conventional

antiperspirants, it's probably somewhat harmful over the long term. I

certainly have ZERO desire to risk senility by experimenting on myself with

it, and I strongly urge others to be equally cautious.

-

[Guest guest]

--- In , " Darrell " <lazlo75501@y...>

wrote:

> As I currently understand it, the deodorant stones inhibit bacteria,

> but not fungus. Theoretically, without the bacteria competing with

> the fungi, the fungi could overgrow. I used a supermarket brand

> of deodorant stone for awhile, and really liked it, until I developed

> red itchy rashes on my armpits that got bigger and bigger until I quit

> the stone all together. After that the rashes disappeared. Thats

> just MY own experience with the stone. YMMV.

>

> Darrell

WFN is selling a deodorant made from coconut oil. I'm ordering some

and I'll report back on it's effectiveness--tho I'm not much of a stinker.

http://wildernessfamilynaturals.com/mall/_products.ASP

I'm gonna give up my alum stone because said to and I don't want

to remember his words later when I can't remember anything else...

B.

[Guest guest]

-

>WFN is selling a deodorant made from coconut oil. I'm ordering some

>and I'll report back on it's effectiveness--tho I'm not much of a stinker.

>

>http://wildernessfamilynaturals.com/mall/_products.ASP

I actually have a stick of that, though I rarely need it either. I got the

spicy woods scent, and while it's very pleasant, it's also very, very

strong, so I've only rarely used it. I think it functions more as an odor

mask than an actual deodorant anyway, though maybe the coconut oil in it

has some antibiotic effect.

-

[Guest guest]

> I actually have a stick of that, though I rarely need it either. I

got the

> spicy woods scent, and while it's very pleasant, it's also very, very

> strong, so I've only rarely used it. I think it functions more as

an odor

> mask than an actual deodorant anyway, though maybe the coconut oil

in it

> has some antibiotic effect.

,

eeww, never mind that.

B.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/6/05 10:54:59 PM Eastern Standard Time,

jag14@... writes:

> By definition, chloride refers simply to a compound containing a chlorine

> atom. Chlorine is part of the atomic structure.

____

That's not true, as I understand it. The " ide " ending indicates that the

chlorine is ionized, and the " ine " ending indicates that the chlorine is in its

elemental form. If salt dissolves in water, you do not have sodium and

chlorine ions, you have sodium and chloride ions, despite the chloride's

existence as

an ion and not part of a compound.

The reason I was differentiating them is because chloride behaves differently

from chlorine-- that is, chlorine with and without the one electron behave

differently from each other. And that behavior is attributable to the presence

or lack of the electron, or, whether that atom is in its elemental or ionized

state (chlorine versus chloride), and not due to its presence in a compound.

For example, whether chloride is supplied by a sodium salt or a potassium salt

to a solution, the chloride will behave the same. On the other hand,

chemicals whose chemical indentity/behavior is defined by a compound unit will

have

differing behaviors with the replacement of a singular atom within the compound.

I don't mean to be nitpicking semantics with chlorine/chloride, but mean

rather to point out that ionized chloride's chemical behavior is different from

chlorine by virtue of its existence as ionized chloride, and regardless of the

identity of an associated ionic compound.

The reason this is relevant is because aluminum ion and aluminum sulfate both

contain aluminum ion, and are thus in no way analagous to elemental chlorine

and chloride.

____

> When a salt dissolves, it

> forms ions, which is not the same as the constituent elements that one

would

> find outside of solution. I was simply comparing this to the deodorant

> stone

> to show that the salts can have very different characteristics than their

> constituent elements.

_____

The comparison is invalid though, because, if I was following the thread

correctly, aluminum *ion* is known to be harmful. Chlorine and chloride are not

the same thing, whereas aluminum ion, known to be harmful *is* present in

aluminum sulfate. If ionized chloride was known to be harmful in the body when

independent from any compound (as it exists in the body), and one of its salts

was harmless, only then could you draw an analogy to the harmfulness of free

aluminum ion and the supposed harmlessness of an aluminum salt.

To put it succinctly, the analogy

elemental chlorine is to ionic chloride as aluminum ion is to aluminum ion

is false.

Chris