Guest guest Posted January 6, 2005 Report Share Posted January 6, 2005 Hi folks, I knocked my 4-5 smoke/day habit on Sunday as an experiment to see if my declining respiratory health is caused by smoking or by my job at which I am exposed to enormous amounts of concrete dust full of silica particles ripping my lungs apart and fly ash which is the residue from smoke stacks, etc, for 10 hours a day. Anyway, I haven't felt the slightest physical withdrawal symptoms. When I was a teenager, I smoked a pack to 1.5 packs a day of Marlboros and had intense physical withdrawal symptoms such as randomly falling asleep, numbness, a feeling like I was on morphine or some such drug, brain fog, etc. When I quit American Spirits a year later, I had little or no withdrawal symptoms. But get this-- I mentioned this to my mom, and my mom said that when she SWITCHED from conventional cigarettes to American Spirits years ago, she had *intense* physical withdrawal symptoms for three full days, even though she retained her pack/day habit, not reducing the amount she smoked. She said her symptoms included hallucinations. She recently has suffered a major cut-down in her habit for lack of money and has experienced no such symptoms of such intensity. I've already known this to some degree, but this strongly suggests that the addictiveness of conventional cigarettes is due to something other than nicotine, and something that is not present in tobacco per se. Chris ____ " What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature. Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the truth, and for those who do them wrong. " --Saint Isaac the Syrian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2005 Report Share Posted January 6, 2005 ---- ChrisMasterjohn@... wrote: >>>I've already known this to some degree, but this strongly suggests that the addictiveness of conventional cigarettes is due to something other than nicotine, and something that is not present in tobacco per se. http://quitsmoking.about.com/cs/nicotineinhaler/a/cigingredients.htm Cheers, Tas'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2005 Report Share Posted January 7, 2005 Hi I smoked a pack to a pack and a half of unfiltered Camel cigarettes per day from about age 25 through age 40. During that time I would experiment with other cigarettes just for fun. I discovered this incredible brand of imported Russian unfiltered smokes made entirely from Turkish tobacco. They tasted absolutely fantastic. If I recall they were about a dollar each, so I didn't smoke them very often but every now and then I would buy a pack. The interesting thing was that even though I loved smoking them they didn't give me a buzz. I would smoke one for the flavor and then have to immediately smoke a Camel for the " hit " . No question that it's not the tobacco that's so incredibly addictive. When I finally quit smoking three years ago it took me three months to become functional again and another year to stop having periodic detox effects. Ron > I've already known this to some degree, but this strongly > suggests that the > addictiveness of conventional cigarettes is due to something > other than > nicotine, and something that is not present in tobacco per se. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2005 Report Share Posted January 7, 2005 In a message dated 1/7/05 3:29:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, Idol@... writes: > I have no personal experience, but isn't it more likely that tobacco is > addictive to some degree (variable across the population, of course) and > that tobacco companies design cigarettes in such a way as to increase, > perhaps dramatically, their addictiveness over the base level provided by > tobacco? Certainly the latter is a known fact -- big tobacco does all > sorts of things to boost the addictiveness of their products -- so the only > question, then, is whether nicotine (and other compounds present in > tobacco/smoke) is addictive in the first place. _____ I think that nicotine in large doses probably has some effects of physical dependency, but it doesn't appear to have much dependency potential in the amounts a normal smoker could smoke. American Spirits, by the way, have several times more freebase nicotine than conventional cigarettes, even though conventional brands *add* freebase nicotine. I suspect it forms during air curing, but don't know. Anyway, I think it's true that they enhance whatever addictive effects there are in nicotine. But it seems to me that the symptoms of withdrawal from conventional cigarettes are *different* in addition to vastly more extreme than from additive-free cigarettes. Also, there seem to be two types of addiction in conventional cigarettes: one that makes you need a cigarette after not having had one, and one that makes you need cigarettes more frequently. To illustrate, both my mother and I and others I've talked to found that we naturally smoke fewer cigarettes and go longer between cigarettes when switching to American Spirits. This means either 1) AS have *more* addictive substances in them and are therefore more satisfying or 2) conventional smokes contain substances that increase your frequency of desire that AS do not have. 1 would seem to conflict with the fact that quitting is so much easier with AS. So I think that some of the chemicals added might be addictive in themselves. I wonder if there is much MSG (there are lots of flavor chemicals) in them, and if this could have the effect described above? Chris ____ " What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature. Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the truth, and for those who do them wrong. " --Saint Isaac the Syrian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2005 Report Share Posted January 7, 2005 In a message dated 1/7/05 4:07:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, Idol@... writes: > Refined and consumed > like heroin, it was supposed to be every bit as addictive as heroin. So BT > may be increasing both the availability and the speed of delivery of the > nicotine in their cigarettes. ____ Yes, but American Spirits contain about 3-4 times as much freebase nicotine as mainstream brands, the latter of whom freebase the nicotine and add it. So the nicotine in AS probably hits the bloodstream faster than conventional brands. Of course, I think there are also doping compounds that might have other effects enhancing the nicotine. Chris ____ " What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature. Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the truth, and for those who do them wrong. " --Saint Isaac the Syrian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2005 Report Share Posted January 7, 2005 Chris- >I've already known this to some degree, but this strongly suggests that the >addictiveness of conventional cigarettes is due to something other than >nicotine, and something that is not present in tobacco per se. I have no personal experience, but isn't it more likely that tobacco is addictive to some degree (variable across the population, of course) and that tobacco companies design cigarettes in such a way as to increase, perhaps dramatically, their addictiveness over the base level provided by tobacco? Certainly the latter is a known fact -- big tobacco does all sorts of things to boost the addictiveness of their products -- so the only question, then, is whether nicotine (and other compounds present in tobacco/smoke) is addictive in the first place. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2005 Report Share Posted January 7, 2005 On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 15:26:50 -0500, Idol <Idol@...> wrote: > > Chris- > > >I've already known this to some degree, but this strongly suggests that the > >addictiveness of conventional cigarettes is due to something other than > >nicotine, and something that is not present in tobacco per se. > > I have no personal experience, but isn't it more likely that tobacco is > addictive to some degree (variable across the population, of course) and > that tobacco companies design cigarettes in such a way as to increase, > perhaps dramatically, their addictiveness over the base level provided by > tobacco? Certainly the latter is a known fact -- big tobacco does all > sorts of things to boost the addictiveness of their products -- so the only > question, then, is whether nicotine (and other compounds present in > tobacco/smoke) is addictive in the first place. > > - it can't be nicotine that's the problem... camel lists nicotine content for their regular filtered cigarettes at 0.9mg, while american spirit regulars are 1.6mg. probably some other insidious compound we'll find out about in another 10 years or so. eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2005 Report Share Posted January 7, 2005 - >it can't be nicotine that's the problem... camel lists nicotine >content for their regular filtered cigarettes at 0.9mg, while american >spirit regulars are 1.6mg. probably some other insidious compound >we'll find out about in another 10 years or so. I've read that Big Tobacco goes to great lengths to modulate the absorption rate and impact of the nicotine in their cigarettes, so if nicotine has a base addictiveness level of, say, 5 arbitrary units, it could be that their chemical doping and modifications in their cigarettes boost that addictiveness several-fold, say to 20. I'm reminded of a study which demonstrated that pot is less addictive mainly because smoking it delivers the addictive compound to the body much more slowly. Refined and consumed like heroin, it was supposed to be every bit as addictive as heroin. So BT may be increasing both the availability and the speed of delivery of the nicotine in their cigarettes. It's also possible that they add additional addictive ingredients to cigarettes, though that would certainly be more dangerous for them to do. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2005 Report Share Posted January 7, 2005 On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 16:05:01 -0500, Idol <Idol@...> wrote: > > - > > >it can't be nicotine that's the problem... camel lists nicotine > >content for their regular filtered cigarettes at 0.9mg, while american > >spirit regulars are 1.6mg. probably some other insidious compound > >we'll find out about in another 10 years or so. > > I've read that Big Tobacco goes to great lengths to modulate the absorption > rate and impact of the nicotine in their cigarettes, so if nicotine has a <snip> > - ah, good point, i hadn't thought of that. i wonder how that would work? it's like increasing the " volume " (like sound, not space) of the desire created by a given amount of nicotine. increasing absorption sounds too easy, but rate of absorption is an interesting idea. that would definitely tend to make something more addictive. eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2005 Report Share Posted January 7, 2005 Okay, you folks who have studied this (or semblance thereof) ... My friend who just visited was smoking " Eclipse " . Very strange, I never actually tried one, but apparently only the tip burns, something about heating the tobacco, not burning it? Know anything about that? (She used to smoke American Spirits till she found this one). MFJ Once, poets were magicians. Poets were strong, stronger than warriors or kings - stronger than old hapless gods. And they will be strong once again. ~Greg Bear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2005 Report Share Posted January 7, 2005 Chris- >I think that nicotine in large doses probably has some effects of physical >dependency, but it doesn't appear to have much dependency potential in the >amounts a normal smoker could smoke. Inasmuch as people seem to have become addicted to tobacco before Big Tobacco started heightening the addictiveness of cigarettes, I think that might be stretching it. >Anyway, I think it's true that they enhance whatever addictive effects there >are in nicotine. I'm pretty sure it's been definitively established -- leaked memos, internal documents, the guy they made the movie THE INSIDER about, etc. >But it seems to me that the symptoms of withdrawal from >conventional cigarettes are *different* in addition to vastly more extreme >than >from additive-free cigarettes. This I can well believe. >To illustrate, both my mother and I and >others I've talked to found that we naturally smoke fewer cigarettes and go >longer between cigarettes when switching to American Spirits. This means >either >1) AS have *more* addictive substances in them and are therefore more >satisfying or 2) conventional smokes contain substances that increase your >frequency >of desire that AS do not have. 1 would seem to conflict with the fact that >quitting is so much easier with AS. When you consume more of an addictive substance, that doesn't generally mean you can go longer between fixes. Quite the contrary, in fact -- it's usually part of the downward spiral of addiction. >So I think that some of the chemicals added might be addictive in themselves. It's certainly possible -- there are plenty of addictive things the conventional wisdom doesn't consider addictive, like sugar, flavor enhancers, etc. -- but it's also possible the additives are either modifying the way the nicotine in cigarettes is absorbed, or the way it acts on the brain, without being directly addictive themselves. >I wonder if there is much MSG (there are lots of flavor chemicals) in them, >and if this could have the effect described above? Could be. An interesting idea, certainly. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2005 Report Share Posted January 7, 2005 Chris- >Yes, but American Spirits contain about 3-4 times as much freebase nicotine >as mainstream brands, the latter of whom freebase the nicotine and add >it. So >the nicotine in AS probably hits the bloodstream faster than conventional >brands. Not necessarily. All sorts of things could interfere with nicotine absorption from pure tobacco. I don't know anything about tobacco and nicotine chemistry, but additives and/or processing techniques might dramatically affect the amount of nicotine that is carried out of the cigarette in smoke versus the amount that's left behind in ash (or combusts?), they might affect the rate at which nicotine is absorbed through the lungs... I could go on, but it would all be speculative. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2005 Report Share Posted January 7, 2005 - >My friend who just visited was smoking " Eclipse " . Very strange, I never >actually tried one, but apparently only the tip burns, something about >heating the tobacco, not burning it? Know anything about that? (She >used to smoke American Spirits till she found this one). Eclipses are reduced-smoke cigarettes. They mostly steam the tobacco, and so they provide less nicotine, less tar, less smoke, than regular cigarettes. I think 20% of normal, or something on that order. Someone I know smokes them and says they're almost like not smoking at all as far as the satisfaction (and hit) of smoking goes. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2005 Report Share Posted January 7, 2005 --- In , Furbish <efurbish@g...> wrote: > > it can't be nicotine that's the problem... camel lists > nicotine content for their regular filtered cigarettes > at 0.9mg, while american spirit regulars are 1.6mg. > probably some other insidious compound we'll find out > about in another 10 years or so. I quit smoking by switching from Marlboro Reds to American Spirits. After a few days on American Spirits, I sparked up a Marlboro and copped a buzz. A few weeks later I quit cold turkey. I had terrible withdrawal symptoms for a day and a half before they tapered off down to nothing. Pure tobacco is definitely addictive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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