Re: storing kefir grains in milk, kefir grain and countability for scobies

[Guest guest]

,

I have seen the kefir grains referred to as 'kefir kernals' in at least one

other place.

Darrell

[Guest guest]

>[Jafa] How long will the kefir grains stay alive in the same milk and

>how much milk should be used for a kefir grain about the size of a

>small brussel sprout?

[Heidi] If you are trying to store them, put the grains in a big

container of milk and put the whole thing in the fridge. They

stay good for a month or more, though I found last time

when I revived them they lost their " thick " part (the viili in kefiili

is more fragile than kefir is).

At room temp things get more iffy. If the milk ferments, the

grains can " starve " ... how long it takes for the milk to ferment

depends on the grains, the temp, and the milk.

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Darrell-

>I have seen the kefir grains referred to as 'kefir kernals' in at least

>one other place.

GEM Cultures refers to them as curds, and while I think they might

previously have called them grains, the word 'curds' definitely captures

their appearance better.

-

[Guest guest]

:GEM Cultures refers to them as curds, and while I think they might

:previously have called them grains, the word 'curds' definitely captures

:their appearance better.

,

I dunno. When I look at my kefir grains I definitely do NOT see anything

that reminds me of the northern Iraqi tribal peoples.

j/k

I sometimes see people on Kefir_Making groups who've absconded

with " kefir grains " , milk curds actually, from their friends thinking they

have the real thing now to ferment their own kefir. They think,

" WOW, these kefir grains sure are multiplying! " , and they save all of

the " grains " , curds actually, and drink the whey which has to be

the kefir, right? LOL

Darrell

[Guest guest]

> strictly countable, and the latter has

> both a common mass version ( " I feed my cows grain because I'm

> ignorant, greedy, and too lazy to nurture my pasture " ) and a common

>

[MAP]Just for the record a cow has to eat something besides pasture

grass in the off season or it will not be alive to see (or dine) the

next pasture(ing) season(of fast growing grass). Dennis the

unlurkeringest!

countable version ( " Spelt is a grain that has become a trendy

> substitute for modern wheat in some circles " or " Once I stopped

eating

> grains, I became healthy and happy " ). It is the former, countable

> meaning that must historically account for the word " kefir

grains " , so

> it's easy to see why there would at least be a morphological

intuition

> to justify the usage of " kefir grain " as a countable back-

formation.

> (By the way, I have never found any discussion of the etymology of

> " kefir grains " --not even on Dom's site--so if anyone has any leads,

> please share.)

>

> It's worth noting here that, while it's a truly awful name, " kefir

> grains " could be defended against accusations of being a misnomer,

> since the " grain of sand " " grain " is indeed a perfectly valid

English

> word. Of course, given that the physical properties of kefir

grains

> are a poor match for the prototype of granularity, often lacking

full

> boundaries between units and assuming non-granular shapes, the

defense

> is weak enough to ignore, and I will continue to unhesitatingly

> complain about this entrenched terminology using any lexical

> invectives at my disposal. (By the way, Japanese uses a bona fide

> misnomer for kefir scobies: " youguruto-kinoko " (yogurt mushroom)!

> I'll take mushrooms over grains any day!)

>

> It is my assumption, rooted in my idiolectal experience and these

> general observations, that the pendulum of countability has

> irrevocably swung away from etymological suggestion to the side of

> perceptual reality for the English word " kefir grains " , but I await

> more data and input in light of this potential counterexample

issued

> by Jafa.

>

> I would like to hear more about others' intuition regarding " kefir

> grain " . Is this singular noun usage comfortable and natural for

you?

> Are there are other phrases you like better? If " kefir grain "

exists

> in your idiolect, does it mean " clump " or does it mean something

like

> " the smallest seed-shaped and seed-sized part of kefir grains " (the

> etymologically associated meaning)? What is your preferred way of

> referring to kefir scobies? I believe the most common solution is

> simply not refer to them directly at all, since humans are so

> profoundly flexible in their communicative strategies.

>

> Fascinating! I just found about 4910 googits for " kefir grains "

and a

> whopping 1660 for " kefir grain " ! Same order of magnitude! I'm

> shocked! This is gonna be messier than I thought... Looks like a

lot

> of bound morpheme activity...

>

> (Hmm, " brussel sprout " is kinda interesting too now that I'm

thinking

> about it!!! (Sorry, Jafa!) But here I think the morphology and

the

> lucid physicality conspire to license a count/mass flip-flop in a

way

> disanalogous to the " kefir grains " case. This case is much

fuzzier.)

>

> Mike

> SE Pennsylvania

>

> The best way to predict the future is to invent it. --Alan Kay

[Guest guest]

[MAP] Hi Dennis, I'm top-posting on purpose to display your post

exactly as you sent it. You'll note that the common practice of using

[name] attribution for group emails means you'd put your own name

before what you write, not mine. :-) As in [Dennis, the cool farmer

guy with a charming sense of humor, sometimes confused with Dave].

Try it; it's fun!

But yes, they sure do need to eat something besides pasture! But that

sure ain't grains.

When I got some milk from one of my local farmer friends yesterday I

asked him " so, didjya start giving 'em some grain again yet for the

winter? " , and he said " no, there gonna be grassfed this winter " . So I

said " wow, you mean they haven't had any grain since May [when he ran

out of grain and decided not to get any more] and you're just gonna

feed hay this winter? " . He said " yup, just hay " . I said " wow,

congratulations, that's something to really be proud of! So all the

cows are still healthy and no problems? " . He said " yup, they're doing

fine, just a little less milk " . I said " well, of course, I remember

that [his oldest son who does most of the milking] told me over

the summer that the milk production dropped a little [at the time, I

got him to estimate it at around 1/4 reduction], but have you noticed

any changes since winter started? " . He said " no, it's about the

same " .

(For context, this farmer has a herd of 30-40 heifers, mostly

Holsteins with a few Jerseys and other breeds, some mixed, and sells

most of his certified-organic milk to Horizon, who place it on

supermarket shelves heavily processed and labelled as organic milk,

and uses some of his milk to supply his brother's cave-aged raw cheese

operation, which produces cheese sold to WAPFers and other markets for

$12/lb.)

Mike

SE Pennsylvania

The best way to predict the future is to invent it. --Alan Kay

> strictly countable, and the latter has

> both a common mass version ( " I feed my cows grain because I'm

> ignorant, greedy, and too lazy to nurture my pasture " ) and a common

>

[MAP]Just for the record a cow has to eat something besides pasture

grass in the off season or it will not be alive to see (or dine) the

next pasture(ing) season(of fast growing grass). Dennis the

unlurkeringest!

[Guest guest]

> > strictly countable, and the latter has

> > both a common mass version ( " I feed my cows grain because I'm

> > ignorant, greedy, and too lazy to nurture my pasture " ) and a

common

> >

>

> [MAP]Just for the record a cow has to eat something besides

pasture

> grass in the off season or it will not be alive to see (or dine)

the

> next pasture(ing) season(of fast growing grass). Dennis the

> unlurkeringest!

[Guest guest]

[Dennis] Guess I've been placing my name at the end of my statement. Guess

that's unacceptable.

[MAP] No rules here! We all do whatever we are comfortable with.

But anyway, noone said there's any problem with signing a post at the

end! I do that every time! I was just talking about marking your

writings with my name! It would be scary if that kind of " alternate "

version caught on!!! Chaos!

[Dennijs] What's wrong with barley or oats? Dennis

[MAP] Guess you'll have to ask a cow geneticist that one. :-)

[Dennis] Wow you have green grass in PA this time of year? He must be

feeding alfalfa with prairie hay. Alfalfa has lots of protein

relative prairie hay so I wonder what he's using in addition to

grass. Probably something else too which may cause more confusion

here.......Dennis

[MAP] There must be some funny business going on here with words,

because I'm pretty sure hay is grass and the last time I saw some cows

eating some it sure looked green to me...

But I'll try to ask the farmer more probing questions sometime...

Keep in mind I'm just an ex-suburban-not-so-slick-er... not a pro

farmer like you...

[Dennis] with another thot.Does your dairy farmer keep his cows in

dry lot most of the time, as in not hardly ever on green grass?

Milk production doesn't change much from summer to winter if the

cows are on dry lot year around. Green grass doubles milk production

at our farm.

[MAP] These guys all have the cows on pasture at all times except

during milking and the nasty parts of winter.

Mike

SE Pennsylvania

The best way to predict the future is to invent it. --Alan Kay

[Guest guest]

Dennis-

>[Dennijs] What's wrong with barley or oats? Dennis

(Grabbing this from Mike's post, since the original didn't come down the

pike for me.)

All grains appear to induce dysbiosis in cows and, even in very small

quantities, can dramatically reduce the CLA content of their milk, which

probably serves as a decent indicator of overall nutritional quality.

-

[Guest guest]

To anyone just jumping into this thread, Kefir grains are NOT the

same as cereal grains. They are not a cereal grain at all.

Darrell